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Games Entertainment

Sony Acquires Virtual Game Station 63

Posted by timothy from the all-the-money-in-the-world dept.
Silverhammer writes: "You were wondering what the terms of the Sony/Connectix lawsuit may be? Well, MacCentral is reporting that they're actually entering a "joint technology agreement" which "can lead to improved development tools, innovative consumer products and productive enterprise solutions." If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Funkengruven points to the announcement itself.
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Sony Acquires Virtual Game Station More

Sony Acquires Virtual Game Station

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  • Basically (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Sony pulled a Microsoft..

    If you can't beat em, buy them out

  • Re:hm (Score:4)

    by jandrese ( 485 ) <kensama@vt.edu> on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:22AM (#361079) Homepage Journal
    Sounds like the Commodore business model, only you also have to fire all your marketing and sales people and hire only South American tree monkeys to fill the positions, and hire criminally stupid management to keep it all together.

    Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
  • Seeing as I can't imagine anyone buying a PC just to play emulated playstation games, the person would have a PC even if the emulator weren't there, and if the PC version of GameA is better or cheaper, that person is *still* likely to buy the PC version. The emulator is only relevant if there is no PC version, in which case the person would probably wouldn't have bought the game at all if there were no emulator. The only way I can see Sony being adversely affected by emulators is if they have a large stock of playstations already produced and thus would lose even *more* money if those units sat in a warehouse rather than being sold.
  • The only flaw in this logic, that makes the conclusion completely invalid, is that Sony doesn't make money off the sales of the playstation. All the money is made off of the (overpriced) games. Consoles are always sold at a loss or break-even. Thus, the emulator is actually good for Sony because it makes their games available to a much wider audience. The only reason Sony went after Connectix is that they want to have complete control of the platform.
    ___

  • Palm CoPilot, PS3 (Score:3)

    by Y2K is bogus ( 7647 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @12:51PM (#361082)
    Has anyone given a thought to what Palm did with the Copilot? Also, the PS3 is in development.

    If you consider that the dev machines for making PS games are pretty expensive, and custom hacks, then a software based development platform would be much cheaper. That's why Palm brought the copilot under it's umbrella, it's faster to hack with the copilot.

    Now consider the PS3, it's in the dev stage right now. Sony dedicated a chunk of Silicon in the PS2 I/O processor to emulate the PS, if they were to simply load the emulator software into ROM on the PS3, it saves them fabbing costs. Fab costs are much more than software development costs.
  • .. I'd port VGS to Be, buy Be (http://www.benews.com/story/3800), port the latter to the Playstation II, expand the platform and take Microsoft on on the desktop market. Yeah!

  • we could see this with napster.

    If I had my choice I would prefer to play PSX games on a computer, purely because I carry a computer with me everywhere I go and my PSX is pretty stationary.

  • I've played on a chipped PSone. It was DDR 4th Mix import game.

    Don't believe Sony's marketing ;-)
    --
    Leonid S. Knyshov
  • I bought mine at a local KB Toys (go to that big place called mall and you'll find one). <A HREF="http://www.kbkids.com">Or buy online!</a>

    $329 in store and $349 online
    --
    Leonid S. Knyshov
  • True, but then again the money is made with the games, not the consoles.
  • If sony does decide to kill it, maybe we should petition the software developers who made games of the console.

    BTW VGS can tell the difference between ligit and copied game CDs, I tried the demo the other day - I thought it was just a bluff.
  • I would understand your arguement if the system in question was a current generation system. However PS1 is yesterdays news, and it also just happens to have one of the largest games bases available. Now that they're not putting more money in to PS1 (I know, they're selling PSOne's, but hold off on that for a sec) they're going to want as many people as possible to purchase the games (which are in essence just cash cows to SCEA now that none of them are really under active development anymore). Since these games presumably are not going to be released for PC in the future, the only ones who benifit from a sale are the distributors (SCEA). For this reason, Sony has released the PSOne which is a playstation that limits "chipping". Having a PC emulator would simply create a platform for their games similar to PSOne except that they'll make a huge profit on selling the "system" since there is no manufacturing overhead. Sony can only make money with this. Especially if they enhance it.
  • I don't. Notice I said "limits chipping". Doesn't make it impossible, just much harder.
  • Umm because they make money off the selling of the games, they don't make any money from selling the consoles themselves, actually they are sold for a lose. So they shouldn't care how the games are played, just that they bought.
  • It seems that under this new agreement all Connectix emulator technology is now property of Sony. Connectix can sell through June, but then will provide "support only". Will Sony rerelease the emulator and start selling it "... under the auspices of the joint agreement"?? I highly doubt it.

    It looks more like Sony decided that since they couldn't win, they'd throw money at the owners. Would you keep selling your product if someone waved big big bucks over your head?

    • I still can't figure out how the authors of WinRAR and CDRWin make any money, either, being that piracy is their primary raison d^etre, as well.
    Oh, come on. That's just trolling, fair and simple. There are plenty of legitimate uses of compression and CD-burning. For example, by the end of the year, I will have myself a low-cost non-realtime video editing system with a DVD player for playback. I will be using CDs to create 'mini-DVDs', which are CDs with DVD data on them. Perfect for small snippets of video like news opens, backgrounds, etc. Also a perfectly legitimate use for the technology, since the video I would be burning would be my own.

    • Of course, Sony's going to kill it--why would the people who developed the PSX need outside help in emulating it?
    I'm not saying that they won't kill it, but if they decide not to, they don't have to develop the software from scratch - someone else has already done that. All they have to do is tweak it and fix the bugs, and with the original programmers, that will be a lot easier than if they just got the source.
    _______
    Scott Jones
    Newscast Director / ABC19 WKPT
  • How about:

    If you cant beat em, Own em.

    <g>
  • If you can't beat em, eat em!
    --
  • Yes, your problem is that you're short-sighted. Visor's PDAs already have a gameboy style expansion slot, and the new iPaqs [cnet.com] have more than enough horsepower to run an PSone style game. The problem now is screen size and control. I don't know if the Gameboy Advance has the right horsepower yet, but I could certainly see a GameBoy Advance 2 that had more than enough horsepower to run all PSone games.

    Also see this interesting story [theregister.co.uk] on The Register about Sony portable PSone rumors.

    - Twid

  • >I'd like to see you go up to some big motherfucker, call him a cunt, and then tell him it's not an insult because you don't know his name ;)

    I'd tell him it wasn't a personal insult since I didn't know his name, especially if he was wearing a t-shirt [thinkgeek.com] that said "I am an anonymous coward." 8-)

    You're missing my point, but heck, I'll let it rest after this... my point is that I think Sony is making a proactive investment now in looking at emulating PSone's so that they can take advantage of upcoming technologies, like the XBox and new PDA's. Then, they will look at providing that backcatalog on new medium for the new devices. Someone already responded to my original post with a really good point about this.

    I think we're closer to agreement than you think...

    That's it for me on this thread!

  • Great points! I think this is basically the path that Sega is taking, realized that their immense 16-bit library has value on roughly compatible "new" platforms. And, since they have lost the console war, Sega porting their games to other consoles makes good business sense.

    There was an interesting article [theregister.co.uk] in The Register about how Microsoft could lose $2 billion on a successful XBox launch. Hurt Microsoft, pre-order an XBox and buy no games for it.... 8-)

    - Twid
  • How can it be a personal insult when you're anonymous? 8-)

    >no-one has yet managed to produce 700Mb ROM cartridges cost effectively.

    I'm going to make a note of this and put it next to these quotes. [uptowncity.com]

    You're assuming:
    - That every playstation CD uses all 700MB.
    - That a game like Tony Hawk couldn't be cut down in any way to fit into another form factor.
    - That memory technology is static.

    Call me a technological optimist, but I believe this problem can be solved. For example, Sony already has MD Data 2 discs [minidisc.org] with 650MB capacity on the market.

    - Twid

  • Maybe sony has wised up (Score:4)

    by Twid ( 67847 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:53AM (#361101) Homepage
    Maybe sony has wised up to the value that emulation might bring to them. Look at Sega's decision to get out of the hardware market and focus on software. The money is not in the razors (the consoles) it is in the blades (the games). Although you could argue that Sony is now making boatloads of cash on the PSone (which probably by now costs them $20 to make), I think that's more by accident than by design. Yes, there is value in owning a console platform, but there is value in leveraging your software library too.

    Working with Connectix so that they have the option of putting a virtual playstation on anything has a lot of value to Sony in the future. X-Box emulators, and emulators for other sorts of devices could be a huge source of revenue. Just the revenue from a single 10-in-one CD with a bunch of top playstation titles for the XBox (similar to the Sega Arcade CD for Dreamcast) could pay for this arrangement with Connectix.

    I saw an interview with the Sega america's president (in ODCM print, couldn't find it online) where he said that PDA's are getting to the point where they can run Sega's immense 16-bit library in emulation. Could Sony be looking at the same thing for their PSone library?

    Tony Hawk on your iPaq, anyone?

    - Twid

  • No more MacOS version? (Score:3)

    by Noer ( 85363 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @12:07PM (#361102)
    Knowing Sony, and the fact that they sell their own PCs, and are somewhat competition for Apple, I'm rather concerned that they'll only continue development on a Mac OS version of VGS, which would be a real shame. After all, they took the wonderfully Mac-compatible Palm and made their own Windows-only (at first) Clie... it was up to a third party USB driver to allow it to interface w/ the Mac, and for no good reason.
  • Wow -- this will make all the time corporate workers spend playing Playstation games at work even better!

  • Re:Big Corp != Bad (Score:3)

    by frankie ( 91710 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:59AM (#361104) Journal
    Most psx emulators I've used (read bleem!)

    Stop! VGS is not Bleem [slashdot.org]! Repeat after me: The list of supported titles [connectix.com] for VGS is NOT short.

    See also this completely off-topic link [yahoo.com].

  • So, what will the effects be? (Score:5)

    by Kreeblah ( 95092 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:22AM (#361105)
    This will have one of two effects (unless I'm forgetting something). Sony will either:

    1. Rewrite VGS so as to optimize the subroutines and maximize compatibility (which then would be something I'd pay for)

    or

    2. Kill it off after June 30 (per the acquisition agreement) and hope people forget about it.

    Personally, I don't really see any benefit for Sony to kill off the emulation project. Sony can't be making much money, if any, on their console sales. Because they would be increasing the potential market for their real cash cow (software; i.e. games), they can only stand to gain from improving the software.

    This does raise an interesting question, however. How will this affect other PSX emulation projects? Will Sony try to kill them off because then they *would* then be infringing on Sony's business, will they be acquired also, or will they be suffocated and die (the commercial ones, anyway; the others are labors of love)?
  • The VGS is a great product. But so far, Connectix has lost bigtime, and not only with the massive legal fees and piles of injunctions.

    The company has made almost zero-profit thanks to rampant piracy. Needless to say, they've felt a bit burned by this.

    Now, they finally get a chance to make some money.
  • From the announcent:

    For consideration, Sony Computer Entertainment will acquire from Connectix all assets related to the VGS emulation technology. Connectix will continue to offer the current version of both CVGS for Macintosh and Windows until June 30, 2001. Connectix will provide continuing support to existing users. All further emulation development for the PlayStation(R) game console will proceed under the auspices of the joint agreement.
  • More like, if you're a supermegacorporation you don't even have to win in the court system, the legal fight itself will bankrupt and destroy your smaller competition.
  • why would they kill it when they could make tons of money selling it? Aren't they ceasing production of the original playstation, anyway? If they keep producing the emulator it would simply allow them to keep selling and collecting licensing fees on playstation games.

  • a victory for consumers and corporations (Score:3)

    by wunderhorn1 ( 114559 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:10AM (#361110)
    All further emulation development for the PlayStation(R) game console will proceed under the auspices of the joint agreement.

    This is a great move for Sony. Harware margins are razor thin, if they're not selling their consoles at a loss.

    The real money is made on software, which was until now the games. (This is why Sega has been moving out of the hardware market, they can't compete with juggernauts like Sony.)
    But now Sony can bring in software-level margins on both the game system and the games!

    Plus we can all keep playing our playstation games on our PCs, with an improved emulator, even.
    Am I being overly optimistic, or does everyone win with this deal?

  • There are a few PSX emulation companies that are legitimate. However, I am sure that Sony will use the power of this legal precendence to take stakes in other such businesses and effort. They will definitely not ignore people like Bleem! [bleem.com]. I imagine they have a definite interest in milking the prospect of PSX games everywhere (including the Dreamcast, in Bleam's case). Hopefully, groups that do it for free can get permission to be left alone to they're endeavors. I don't think Sony will see them as financial threats, because they further the demand for older PSX games.
  • If you can't beat them, acquire them, invest lots of money in them, drive them out of business, then pull out?

    ...
    --
    Peace,
    Lord Omlette
    ICQ# 77863057
  • a PS emulator for the Xbox?
    --
  • The main reason to enter into such an agreement is simple - PS1 is not the current emphasis of Sony's development. Sony does not want to see a VGS for PlayStation 2. That's the bottom line. Sony knows that video cards and hardware will put the PC in a position to emulate PS2 within a year, and this is a move to cut off that threat.

    Let 'em emulate our old platform. But stay the fsck away from PS2!

  • Am I being overly optimistic, or does everyone win with this deal?

    Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd say you're being over optimistic. :) Seems to me like this is a "Buy it and kill it" type deal, as a previous poster noted.

    I'm not sure what incentive Sony has to market this emulator commericially. It's true, hardware margins suck (witness the selling of PS2's at a huge loss)... which makes selling a software-based Playstation seem somewhat attractive at first....

    But after a few years, console margins aren't that bad because the hardware vendors have usually shrunk and integrated the components to the point where they're HUGELY cheaper to make than they were a few years previously, when the console was first introduced to market.

    Look at the new PSOne... it's about the size of my smoke detector! Tiny! I wouldn't even be suprised if Sony was making money on PSOne hardware sales at this point.

    Of course, hopefully I'm wrong and you're right, and Sony won't kill the product. It could actually be a REALLY neat selling point for their VAIO PC's.... Playstation compatibility!!! :)

    http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
  • What they think, Playstation tecnology is today responsible for 45% of his World incoming, just one product , obviously they don't let anyone appropriate of this gold mine.
    =(
  • Umm because they make money off the selling of the games, they don't make any money from selling the consoles themselves, actually they are sold for a loss.

    This is true, but they also recieve royalties for each game that is released on their systems (publishing/licence fees). Sony's 1st party game sales totals pale in comparison to these licence fees.

    --

  • Re:a victory for consumers and corporations (Score:5)

    by Bingo Foo ( 179380 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:23AM (#361118)
    Am I being overly optimistic, or does everyone win with this deal?

    It turns out that Martin Phillips, age 47, of Canton, OH does not win with this deal, but he's the only one.

    Bingo Foo

    ---

  • Except there are numerous easily available 'mod chip' patches available for VGS so it does encourage piracy.

  • This can be fun. (Score:3)

    by Alien54 ( 180860 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:40AM (#361120) Journal
    Personally, I look forward to having emulators with big bucks thrown into their development. It also allows for an expanded market for Sony.

    My fantasy speculation is that now that Sony is going to get into the PC market, while MS is going into the game console market. Down the road this could lead to a Sony Gaming OS. I'm not taking the prospect seriously right now, but far stranger things have happened. And if the XBox turns out to be a dud, it could be fun to watch.

  • Am I being overly optimistic, or does everyone win with this deal?

    One could argue that it does make piracy of Playstation games more viable -- running a pre-packaged emulator is less involved than mod-chipping a Playstation.

    Then there are others who argue that rampant software piracy helps promote the platform.

    Then the first group points out that if everyone's pirating the software, no one's making money.

    Then it starts to devolve into the typical arguments heard in the Napster threads and a fist-fight breaks out.

    So if I were Sony, I'd probably fight like hell to stop emulation of the Playstation. But if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

  • Maybe sony has wised up to the value that emulation might bring to them. Look at Sega's decision to get out of the hardware market and focus on software. The money is not in the razors (the consoles) it is in the blades (the games).

    This is true, but is undeniable that the company that owns the console is at a huge advantage, provided that development for that console is not open and there are no competing consoles to develop games for.

    Look at the NES during the last half of the 80's. Nintendo *owned* the home videogame market, and locked out 3rd-party developers who would not submit to Nintendo's licensing policies. Basically Nintendo made a lot of money from these people for doing nothing (aside from providing a key to get past the lockout mechanism, and then slapping a "Seal of Quality" on the game, and endorsing the licensed developers instead of suing them like they sued Tengen. Something like 30% of the cost of a 3rd-party game actually went to Nintendo, not the actual developer.

    Contrast this with the relationship Atari had with their 3rd party developers. When other companies first started developing games for the Atari 2600, Atari was pissed off and tried to sue, but they lost. They didn't have a means to lock out competing developers, so they just accepted that other people could make games for the 2600 and they wouldn't see any of the money from it. This resulted in the development of a huge library of games for the 2600, which enabled Atari to sell a lot of console units. But if they weren't making money directly off of the sale of the consoles, this would not have benefitted them at all.

    In the 32-bit age and beyond, there has been a healthy amount of competition, with no one system dominating the market to the extent that the Atari 2600 or NES did in their respective primes. But if one company does come to dominate the console market, they will be able to dictate terms to developers such that they will make money from their efforts in the form of licensing fees, even though they're not doing any real work to deserve it. Nintendo tried to pull the same draconian licensing deals with the SNES and N64, but since the market had the Sega Genesis and the Sony Playstation, 3rd-party developers had other options, and they took their business elsewhere. The result was a significantly smaller library of games for the SNES and N64, and the overall quality of those games was less than it could have been if Nintendo hadn't alienated some of the first-tier developers (Square especially)

    Clearly then, it is of great benefit to a company if they can completely control developer's access to their console, especially if they are the only game in town. Sony was close to this, given the less than spectacular market performance of the N64 and Sega Saturn. If another company had essentially opened up a viable alternative (such as Bleem! and other PSX emulators) which allowed compatibility for the console and took control away from Sony, this ruined their shot at becoming the monopoly that Nintendo was during the 80's.

    Now that the PSX is reaching obsolescence there's little incentive for them to try to control the PSX platform, and in fact there's more incentive for them to open up the console to keep the game library alive for a bit longer until interest in it is relegated to a marginalized segment of retro-gamers. So (IMO) it's not that Sony has "wisened up" and decided to play nice and share the pie with everyone, they just recognize that the prize they were fighting for is now irrelevant, and it's no longer in their interest to persue the matter.

    I rang, you rang, we all rang for orangutang!

  • How about:

    If you can't beat 'em, eat 'em!

  • If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

    More like "If you can't sue their pants off, purchase their assets and give 'em all pink slips!"

  • I'm not so sure that emulating game consoles qualifies as a "turning point in human history". But I could be wrong.

  • Re:relative rubiconism (Score:3)

    by Forgotten ( 225254 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:21AM (#361126)
    You seem to have missed the point, which is that emulating game consoles is neither interesting nor important enough to be considered "blatant stealing", "a turning point", or anything but a slashdot article for a sleepy Thursday.

    As for the deal itself, it's a great move for Connectix - the software was a hopeless case as a commercial offering, and all but dead since the PS/2's appearance anyway. Glad they got some cash out of it before tucking it in the dustbin. They could never have open-sourced it anyway (Sony would have been relentless in their legal opposition, regardless of the fact that they have no case).
  • An AC wrote:

    > Dude! Somebody's selling PS2s? Where?

    A CompUSA on Dorsett in St. Louis Missouri had them in stock this week. They were giving a price of something like $358 (?) for the machine and a warranty. No price for the machine alone. :(

    This deal might be good for Sony and the consumer, if Sony helps to add PS2 emulation to the program. Given their current problems with getting their machines out, having an emulator would help them at least sell the PS2 games. As it is now, they are selling games to a very tiny audience. That has got to be hurting them big time.

    Homage to Mothra, Queen of Monsters, on the occasion of her fortieth anniversary!
  • I suppose the primary purpose of VGS wasn't to play "backups"? And don't tell me about the easily defeated built-in protection being a barrier to that. They tried to cash in on the PSX's popularity, pure and simple. And their primary market was those with burned PSX games. (I still can't figure out how the authors of WinRAR and CDRWin make any money, either, being that piracy is their primary raison d^etre, as well.)

    I don't deny that they're extrordinarily talented programmers (props), but they're lucky to have come out of it with anything but humongous legal bills or worse, a jail term. Of course, Sony's going to kill it--why would the people who developed the PSX need outside help in emulating it?

  • Oh, come on. That's just trolling, fair and simple. There are plenty of legitimate uses of compression and CD-burning

    OK, I'll give you CDRWin. But what's something that's distributed in volume in .RAR format besides warez?

    . . . they don't have to develop the software . . .

    I'll admit that in the extremely unlikely (IMHO) event that Sony really wants to sell PSX emulation (built in ROM in a VAIO laptop, maybe?) that having one already done would be easier. But they're in a position to put a PSX on a chip on a PCI or PCMCIA card, capture the same market, probably for less than the cost of a PSX, with no piracy. I just don't see their motivation for buying the emulator as anything other than "Oh, crap--we might lose, then in a few years, everything, including the PSX2, is fair game! Let's buy it, get it off the market, and save the big guns for the first company to introduce PSX2 compatibility."

  • The Register has some more information about it here. [theregister.co.uk]

  • Most of us won't have the hardware in time to run a PS2 Archetecture emulator. And from a standpoint, it would be cheaper to go and buy a PS2 then a whole new computer just for the purpose of playing PS2Roms.

    But then again, I'm doing this from the casual Gamer perspective of having your system just fast enough to play games for about a year or so, and then doing enough upgrades just to keep up with the bare minimum reqs.

    Yes, there are people like me. Usually we're college students paying tuition out of our own pockets.
  • I'm optimistic that Sony will continue to develop the VGS, seeing as how it will make their software that much more profitable. Especially for those of us that like the games, but can never seem to scrounge enough cash to buy the system.

    My hope is that Nintendo would do the same with it's older consols and games, help development of emulators, and maybe spark a larger interest in "ghetto games" for the NES/SNES. All this without the pesky hyperventilation of getting those old cartridges to work.
  • LOL, this is funny,

    yesterday I posted about this when I read that sony and connectix were taking an off court settlement,

    that's very cool, now we can expect a fully compatible VGS, or at least a much better one (it is already very good)
  • From the post: The companies were to go to a jury trial this month to resolve Sony's complaint that Connectix misappropriated trade secrets and provided unfair competition. Connectix has released a new version of the emulator with added compatibility and some improvements, and has also introduced a PC version of the emulator. All the while, Connectix president Roy McDonald has steadfastly defended his company's development of Virtual Game Station.
  • Neat, I have to admit my ignorance to the massive list of titles that VGS supports. I stand corrected ;-0

  • Big Corp != Bad (Score:3)

    by nate1138 ( 325593 ) on Thursday March 15, 2001 @11:12AM (#361136)
    Maybe this will end up as a good thing for the software. With Sony's assistance, perhaps the emulator can be optimized and made to work with a greater variety of games. Most psx emulators I've used (read bleem!) have too many bugs to make them alot of fun, and the list of supported titles is too short.
  • They been at eachother's throats for a long time and they agree to work together? I don't think so.
  • I think that option two is most likely. PS1 emulation is built into every PS2, what advantage is there is allowing someone to use their existing PC instead?

    Maybe they don't make any money on the box, but even if that is true once you own the box you are going to buy games for it. If they put out an emulator and you can buy GameA for PC or GameA for PS which are going to buy. Then they don't get the money. With lots of games being released for multiple platforms they want their customers locked into using their product only.

    The only way I see them releasing VGS as a Sony product is if they loose their lawsuit with a competing emulator (ie. Bleem). Then they can market it as the official emulator at the same price or less and drive the competition out of buisness [microsoft.com].

  • I agree that this is a good arguement for all emulators, but I think you're argument is too logical for a large corporation. Just like the music industry and Napster, large corporations don't want to look at other ways of doing things.

    I think it's likely that they will kill it.

    I hope I'm wrong, though. If Sony brands it's own emulator to play it's outdated games then maybe we'll see a widespread acceptance of emulators by the other gaming behemoths. I for think there is an untapped industry for classic games. More companies should unleash there "dead" products.

    A best example of how to use these old games is shockwave.com [shockwave.com].

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