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Games Entertainment

Dreamcast Postmortem 151

Posted by Hemos from the delving-inside-sega dept.
zlite writes: "The Financial Times has a good insider tale of how Sega bungled the Dreamcast. Short version: tentative marketing, divided opinions, and costly delays. Then the main champion got cancer. The machine died with him." I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who use and like them -- so I think the article is a bit overly harsh. But it's still got some good background to the device.
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Dreamcast Postmortem More

Dreamcast Postmortem

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  • Sega sales had been lagging for years, and then they just basically died after the ill-fated Saturn. Dreamcast was a great platform from what I understand, but Sega jst didn't have the capitol or instant brand loyalty of that Nintendo and Sony command nowadays.

    A sad end to be sure

  • ... I have a n64, DC, and a PS (1 not 2)... and I get a lot of use out of the DC...

    I don't think they bungled it.

  • Dreamcast (Score:3)

    by Wind_Walker ( 83965 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @07:33AM (#334358) Homepage Journal
    The best thing that ever happened to the Dreamcast was its failure.

    Before you mark me as flamebait, let me explain. I didn't like the Dreamcast. I never played Sega stuff. I was a Nintendo boy, because Sega just plain sucked (All Your Base, anyone?)

    When I saw that the Dreamcast was being discontinued and offered for only $99, I went out and bought one because, hey, it's only $99. With the dropping price of games (due to said discontinuation) I thought I could grab a couple of good games before they went off the shelf.

    Dreamcast is an incredible machine, way better than that PS2 crap. Games for the PS2 just plain suck, the controller is uncomfortable, and the prices are over-inflated by artificially-created hype. DC, on the other hand, has lots of good games, the controller is terrific, and you can play up to 4 players.

    Just because the Dreamcast failed doesn't mean that it sucks. PS2 sucks. Dreamcast is going to have loyal fans (myself included) for a long time.

    ------
    That's just the way it is

  • Zero Wing? (Score:3)

    by oingoboingo ( 179159 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @07:37AM (#334359)
    If only Sega had managed to port Zero Wing to the Dreamcast...it really could have been the killer app they needed.

    You know the drill..."All your Dreamcast are belong to us!!"

  • Sega seems to have a bad habit of creating new systems, then abandoning them in favor of other bright shiney new toys, sometimes less then a year later.I'll personaly never touch a Sega console with the idea that it's going to be around for awhile.
    =\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\= \=\=\=\=\
  • And I'll keep on buying games for as long as they keep making them - and the quality stays as high as it is.

    Test Drive LeMans absolutely rawks, Starlancer brings back all kinds of happywarmfuzzy Wing Commander vibes, and my wife loves blowing me up in Worms Armageddon.

    Game labels, keep 'em coming!

    (and who knows - maybe Loki will start compiling games for Dreamcast Linux someday)

  • Well, (Score:1)

    by k_187 ( 61692 )
    Personally, I think Sega is going to do alright. Mostly because they have the best IP in the business. The major game franchises out there are Mario, Sonic, Zelda, Pokemon... I can't think of any more. Notice that Sonic is second there(of course the fact that of the three I name off the top of my head 3 are from Nintendo says something too). Not to mention the fact that Sega has some of the greatest RPGs ever(some are better than that crap Square has been putting out, and no I haven't played FF9, FF8 was crap I have said so, and so it shall be). Sega is just going to have to move to a software only business model(I don't like that term) like SNK did after the Neo-Geo bombed(too damned expensive if ya ask me, same reason the N64 didn't blow up like the PS1 did). I've been hearing that Sony, M$, and Nintendo have been lobbing for Shenmu 3, and Nintendo has been trying to get Sega Sports(which is really what they need,Nintendo Sports also suck). I think Sega is going to do just fine (hell, wait til Sonic vs. Mario comes out).

  • "Poor marketing" (Score:3)

    by Lemmy Caution ( 8378 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @07:40AM (#334363) Homepage
    Is it me, or does anyone else notice how contemptuous the geek-consensus is towards marketing, how it is usually painted as a useless endeavour and marketing staff thought of as unnecessary, yet whenever a product fails and the reasons for that failure aren't clearly understood (or when a disliked product - e.g., Microsoft - succeeds), suddenly it's all about marketing?

  • I love my DC too (Score:4)

    by phaze3000 ( 204500 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @07:41AM (#334364) Homepage
    And I know quite a few people that have bought one. In fact when it was announced that production of them had stopped, and the price was dropped, the Dreamcast outsold the PS2 in Japan for a week.

    But you need to put this in context; this is a Financial Times article, and they don't really care about the quality of the games; they're interested in the sucess (or in this case otherwise) of the business. And one has to say that the Dreamcast did nothing for the business - in fact Sega stock rose quite sharply when it was announced that they were dropping the DC.

    --
  • I own both the PS2 and the Dreamcast. The PS2 controller is probably the best one I have ever used, and that goes back to 2600, Nintendo, SNES, N64, Sega Master System, Genesis, etc. I absolutely hate that monstrosity of the DC controller. On the other hand, the VMU idea in the DC is great.

    As for your comment about being able to have "up to 4 players" on the DC, you can theoretically have up to 10 on the PS2, but I think the max that is supported by any current game is 8.

    What really makes any system is the games. Right now, I'd have to say that there are plenty more games for the DC that I'd like to have than there are for the PS2. Hopefully that will change.

    The truth is, I bought my PS2 so I could play Metal Gear Solid when it comes out, so any game that's released that is any good is a bonus. SSX anyone?
  • When Dreamcast was announced, my friends and I sat around, jaw open, trying to figure out exactly how Sega (Sega of all companies!) could even consider launching a system against the age-old giant Nintendo (who'se next generation console was still being worked on under codename: Dolphin) and the newcome Sony. After Saturn (which had some cool games and alright graphics), Sega had kind of dissappeard, and we liked it that way. Having been mostly Nintendo kids growing up, we managed to stay pretty much on their bandwagon. A couple of us had Playstations (myself not included), but never had we even considered buying a Sega... anything. So we managed to laugh it off, and say that Sega would fail yet again. When Dreamcast was released, nobody paid much attention to it. That is, until we played Crazy Taxi. We all have DCs now. It's safe to say that Dreamcast is a good system, built strongly enough, with some good games out there. The problem lied in that Sega didn't have the backing to support it. Having been out of the loop for so long, and not having the funds needed to run a large-scale marketing campaing, I don't see that they had much of a choice to fold. Kind of a shame, too, because I would have liked to have seen what came after DC.
  • Sega has made way too many systems that bombed out. In fact, the only thing that kept them going was the Genesis. They do make some decent games, and made a wise choice in sticking to just making games. Remember the Saturn? How about the Sega CD? Or the 32X? Or the portable thing....the nomad? A company has to spend a LOT of money on development for those sort of things.
  • "I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who them - so I think the ..."

    Who them what? Why didn't you buy the Sonic the Hedgehog Grammar and Complete Sentence Checker? It is pretty cool to watch as Sonic screams over your paper highlighting incomplete thoughts.
  • WOOHOO! First Post...ahem. Sorry.

    I also moonlight for a retail toy store in addition to being a corporate slave, and was there when the initial systems came. There were 5 (or 6) games available, extra controllers were expensive, and the other accessories were worse - although much cooler than any of its "competetors" at the time. Games were slow to come at first, and by the time 3rd party eq. came out for it, people in general were choosing to go back to the PlayStation. For the graphics' sake, I wish it had held on longer, but it was doomed from the beginning. I might buy one for the Soul Caliber aspect, but i'll just stick with my comp for entertainment for now.

  • Err. (Score:2)

    by dave-fu ( 86011 )
    The Genesis handily beat the SNES in America for its tenure.
    Saturn was a mistake, Dreamcast never had 3rd party support, so it goes.
  • Amen brother!

    The Dreamcast is dead. Long live the Dreamcast!

  • What about 3dfx? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm surprised the 3dfx part of the Dreamcast saga got no attention in this article. In case you didn't know, the story went something like this:

    Back in the Voodoo Graphics days, when NEC was still making 3D accelerators for the PC market (PowerVR), 3dfx (then, 3Dfx) had a contract with Sega for their new console.
    Then, Sega went back on their contract and went with NEC. 3dfx sued, eventually they settled and 3dfx walked away with some money.

    I don't know what this all means for the success/failure of the DC, but I imagine it did something in the broader picture.
  • What's important about those 'franchise' characters is brand identification for the under 12 year old set.

    Since there hasn't been a real popular Sonic game in a number of years, I wonder if the kids even remember who the hedgehog is.
  • Well, for the XBOX's sake...

    Do you think that you would have changed your mind about SEGA if they had worked harder on an artificially-created hype about thier console? Should Mico$oft get the 10,000 RPM Media Spin engine to push the XBox.


    TEN

  • The Japanese. (Score:5)

    by Matt2000 ( 29624 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @07:55AM (#334375) Homepage

    Although North American businesses are far from immune to management quibbles, it seems like in a lot of cases that Japanese companies can get caught up in notions of duty and honour, and have difficulty making the quick decisions required in the computer/electronics markets today.

    Growing up in the 80's, the Japanese could do no wrong and were wiping the floors with everyone with their improved production models and more efficient operations. Now it seems they have more trouble competing in the faster paced market. For example, I find it amazing that none of the top grpahics chipset makers are Japanese (it's even more amazing that two of them are Canadian).

    Perhaps certain fast paced international markets are just not compatible with the Japanese style of management.
  • Two words: Crazy Taxi :)
  • It's all in the name of business.
    ...

    Sega is a "Software Company" remember?

    So they stopped making the machines? They slashed the price, injected a few hundreds of thousands of more machines into the userbase, and have now set them up to sell more copies of Phantasy Star Online, Sonic Adventure 2, and (with any luck) a future version of NiGHTS.

    The best thing that could happen to the platform now is for Hitachi or NEC to decide to pick up production of a 3rd party machine with DVD capabilities and a groovy form factor. (I love my Dreamcast to death, but the machine does look a bit too much like a toy for my taste.)

    "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
  • PS2 sucks DC rules, yea, whatever, but Jesus fucking Christ you must be the most cracked up, die hard Dreamcast advocate in the world to think that its "Tonka Tuff" controller is good. I hate that thing and everyone I know hates that thing. And we all use 3rd party controllers.

    And as for the PS2 controller, it is just the dual-shock 2, which is just a hyped up PS1 controller.

  • Many feel that Sega ditching the console market is their best path to profitability. By taking this step, they've become the largest third party developer (passing up EA). And Sega, as a company, makes some of the best games out there. Every console maker will want them in their camp, so things will be OK for them in the end.

    And despite what many think, the Dreamcast sold very well in the US. It didn't have the "cool" factor with Joe Average, but most gamers could see it was a good platform with some quality (and in some cases, groundbreaking) titles.

  • Yes, but you don't have the facts exactly straight. Geeks hate marketing because it is in large part about lies and false promisses that we have to fullfill after the fact. Anyone (and this is most geeks with a real job) who has had to rush to put in some baddly designed feature because marketing promissed in and someone bought it understands. Cut the cost down to nothing and then build a great full-featureed system on top of that... I can personally think of several buggy programs that cannot be fixed due to the above, that I have to maintain.

    Still we grudgingly admit that if a product fails it is bad marketing, and if it succeddeds it is good marketing. Likewise when a company fails it is because of bad management. (Which often hired the bad marketers) Technology has nothing to do with either, something geeks hate to admit. Linux was a little geek toy that we enjoied for years until marketing got a hold of it. True geeks would be happy to have linux remain a little known geek toy, but marketing recignised some of the things geeks like about linux as good, and they started selling it. (Witness redhat and similear companies that make money marketing linux. Linux doesn't need redhat, though we enjoy the benifits of having them around.)

    When a product succeeds it is marketing, when a product fails it is marketing. Success in this case is measured in money, there are other definitions, but they don't pay the bills) Still anyone who has delt with marketing understands why geeks cannot stand marketing.

  • 32X was horrible - an expensive bandaid they abandoned almost immediately, screwing everyone who purchased one (I didn't).

    Saturn bombed, too, but not because of being abandoned by Sega. It was out there four years before Dreamcast was released. Frankly, the games on Saturn, at first, were better than PSX. All the games I have for my Saturn came out the first year. I only have a dozen or so, but you know what? I still play them. My nephew, with a playstation, came to visit, and thought that Daytona Championship absolutely rocked compared to what he's seen recently on the PS1, and that was from five years ago. Virtua Fighter II and Sega Rally haven't been equaled in that generation.

    I don't think you can include Saturn in the quickly abandoned category.

    But you are right, while I think some of the hardware is great (Genesis was great for it's time, and so is Dreamcast), their forté is software.

  • Very true. I think of how Nintendo is STILL supporting its archaic GameBoys, and it's still selling like mad! Likewise, Sony is still selling PS1's and new games are still being created for it. In the PC market it's ok to make something and move on to the next big thing ASAP because if you don't, someone else will. But in the console market there's not much room (as of yet) for upgrade ability because it is meant to be a stand-alone gaming only system. Therefore, console companies really need to build a quality product, hype it up, and support it as long as possible. Sega never has done support of systems well, and I think that's what has killed them over and over again.

  • Ironic that the slashdot 'games' icon for this story is a N64 controller, is it not?
  • An interesting point. If reckon that I would get a cheap Dreamcast just for the achingly lovely graphich and fun of the Tony Hawks series. That's what the PS2 needs. Tony Hawks - none of this futuristic snowboarding type rubbish. I have no idea what it's called but I found it quite funny when I went in to work one Saturday night to shut down a load of desktops to find this guy playing it on a large widescreen TV - And swearing very loudly at it. I'm suprised security didn't come join him.

    Oh yeah, don't forget that Linux howto for using a box with a cable modem as a dial-up server for a Dreamcast. You don't even have to buy the add-on ! Smite thine DC-playing enemies with Penguin-power !

    Claric
    --

  • What the hell is the deal with all this "oh the DC is dead!"... "oh the DC was another failure" ... enough already. Consoles die, get over it. I own a DC, and I had a ton of fun with it. I would have prefered to see it last untill the Xbox, but oh well. I got my money's worth and I'm not crying in the streets.

    If you are seriously broken up about the death of the dreamcast you need therapy.
    If you think the DC is a failure, I'd like to see you do better.

    disc-chord
    now back to your regularly scheduled rants, MS hating and first posts
  • Saga just suffers from not knowing when to release new machines. Ever since the Megadrive 32x they have constantly released consoles at times when people are saving up for the next generation of machines, which boast far better eye candy in magazines. Also they never quite got the idea of specializing in a sector of gaming. e.g. neogeo - 2d fighting games. Nintendo - Mario Cart / Platform. Playstation - post pub action. Sega - Sonic - I got bored of it 5 years ago. Why, Why, Why - did they not get into bed with Square in the early years... when they had lots of wedge before the Playstation? Anyway I'm still waiting for the 3DO2 laters. Saga just suffers from not knowing when to release new machines. Ever since the Megadrive 32x they have constantly released consoles at times when people are saving up for the next generation of machines, which boast far better eye candy in magazines. Also they never quite got the idea of specializing in a sector of gaming. e.g. neogeo - 2d fighting games. Nintendo - Mario Cart / Platform. Playstation - post pub action. Sega - Sonic - I got bored of it 5 years ago. Why, Why, Why - did they not get into bed with Square in the early years... when they had lots of wedge before the Playstation? Anyway I'm still waiting for the 3DO2 laters.
  • http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-4635343.html

    When a caterpillar starts the journey to a butterfly, we do not say the caterpillar has failed.

    DreamCast's exit from 'game box' to 'set top' makes sense... that's what the unit was meant to be in the first place, or at least had evolved to be.

    Has anyone seen the 10base-T adapter announced just ahead of the discontinuation announcement anywhere?
  • I have more games for my DC (PSO, Jet Grind, NFL2k1, Daytona, Samba de Amigo, and many more) that I enjoy playing than I could even FORCE myself to play on the overhyped PS2. The DC just had the games I wanted. I wasn't even tempted by the PS2, friends who had them did nothing but try to convince me how great they were. So I'd sit them down in front of Jet Grind and watch them disappear into a world of actual FUN gameplay. It was amazing. I am personally responsible for 5 people SELLING their PS2's and buying dreamcasts.

  • Not to sound condescending but, there are still a lot of loyal Atari 2600 fans too but it hardly revitalized Atari's market share. As the article states, several things about the DC went wrong. Delays from part manufacturers meant that the release dates kept getting pushed back, this is death in the console market, Sony was done with the PS2 teasers and was starting to swing into full ad-blitz mode by the time DC thudded into the market. Sega also failed to get the draw developers (SquareSoft, Konami, etc...), this was a huge factor (in Japan, mostly) that would decide the future of the console. By the time DC made it over here the PS2 buzz had started, the number of initial games was low and the big name developers had bailed, as far as I was (and still am) concerned DC was DOA, only the after-market can keep it alive.

    -----

  • I really dont think it is artifical hype.

    Yes they have(are going to) create a media frenzy over this. But a system still needs software, those "killer apps". Current xbox has two that I can see... Halo and Abe.

    Dreamcast didn't have any console specific apps to push the sales. I'm sure the hard was decent but there wasn't enough support from the software design community
  • ...But before you mod me to flamebait, let me explain. While it's true that they sunk a lot of money into R&D for their products, one of their failing points was that they didn't go for the right type of research. Look at Nintendo, Sega's old big rival in the days of 8 and 16-bit consoles. Nintendo was always developing it's own technology for the task. Processors that were VERY well refined for gaming. Look at the SNES. It's amazing what that box could do given it's, what, 2 or 3MHz CPU? Then compare that to the Genesis. Now while there were excellent Genesis games, they didn't quite have the *umph* or the level of eye-candy that the SNES had. Why? Well, it wasn't made with components optimized to the task. I remember reading plans a while back on building a Genesis with off-the-shelf components from Radio Shack. Case in point, the most successful game companies designed and built their own machines with little outside assistence. Sega tried to cut corners by using whatever was available at the time.
  • Even though sega has stopped making more dreamcast HARDWARE, they still have at least 100 games coming out, some of which look amazing. Sega also stated that they will keep making games as long as there is demand for them. As shocking as this may sound, the dreamcast has a decent user base, who knows how long it can live. Knowing sega however, they often make promises they don't keep. The main problem with the dreamcast was sega's marketing, anybody who owns one will tell you how great the system is. Many of the games are innovative and insanley (is that a word?) fun (ie. crazy taxi, jet grind radio, space channel 5, etc...).
  • If you'd prefer your Dreamcast to last until the release of XBox, then let it do so! There is still Crazy Taxi 2 (which kicks arse, by the way), Sonic Adventure 2, a new version of Half Life (officially the greatest PC game of all time) and others on the way, and if you've played until boredom all the great games already available then you're bored faster than me. Lets see - have you completed:

    Soul Calibur, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Ecco, M-SR, F355, DOA2, Sonic Adventure, Virtua Tennis, Rayman 2, Space Channel 5, Chu Chu Rocket, Samba De Amigo, Sega Rally 2, Sega GT, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Phantasy Star Online, Daytona, etc, etc...

    Tons of games out there for this great machine. In fact I'd say there are more great games for the Dreamcast than there are even ok ones for the PS2!

  • Sega problems ran deeper than that (Score:3)

    by evilned ( 146392 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @08:22AM (#334394) Homepage
    I love my dreamcast, PSO has been a blast, NFL2k1 was alot of fun, Skies of Arcadia has been one of the best RPG's I've played in awhile, and Crazy Taix is one of the few games that me and my girlfriend both enjoyed. Still, its the same old story from sega, another botched half supported system. Sega CD, 32x, Saturn, now Dreamcast. That being said, this problem with marketing, and corporate infighting has forced its in house development teams to become extremely strong and creative, which is exactly what sega is going to need now. With the Sega Sports label, they could really do some damage to EA right in its core market, the sports games, hence the bad mouthing from both sides. AM2 can make great fighting and driving games, and Shenmue, for all its faults, definately is original. With sonic team you have a group that really understands the platform game well, and is getting a trial by fire initiation into the world of online gaming by PSO. And flat out, no other company around translates fun arcade games into fun console games. I just hope that the BS that destroyed their consoles doesnt destroy what could be a great third party publisher.

  • Management, Not Engineering (Score:3)

    by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @08:26AM (#334395) Homepage Journal
    I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who use and like them -- so I think the article is a bit overly harsh.

    Jeesh, Hemos. There isn't one word in the article about the engineering quality of the product. It's all about management infighting and bungling. Like all business publications (and a depressing number of "technical" rags) Financial Times sees everything in terms of market opportunities won or lost. Having a quality product is only one (not always essential) factor in that equation.

    There's no sign the writer knows more than the barest basics about electronic gaming or engineering. For this kind of article, she doesn't need to.

    Her point is that the suits killed the product. From our nerdy point of view, Dreamcast being a quality product only strengthens her point.

    __

  • Or close, anyway, as long as the developer community still supports it. Here's some screens from a near-perfect adaptation of gameboy tetris [min.net] I've been working on, which I hope to make multiplayer once Dan's programming libs [allusion.net] support networking.
  • You could write something awfully similar for the PS2:
    • I was there when the initial systems came. They sold off the shelf instantly, leaving everyone else to constantly ask if we had any in. There were a few games available, controllers were available but worth nothing since no one could get a system. Games came slower than the dreamcast, and weren't any better for a long while.
    Given that the DC is 1/3 the price, it seems an easy choice.
    --
  • Yes, a $99 Dreamcast was a great way for my roommate and I to slack out for our last semester.

    Running "backup copies" without a mod chip certainly helps, too!

    (Though.. I've got to say that the playstation controller is more ergonomic, IMO, than the Dreamcast's. That thing really hurts after a while.)

    We really like Marvel vs Capcom 2, Virtual On, Tony Hawk 2, Jet Grind Radio, Cannon Spike, and Skies of Arcadia. There's definitely enough here for a $99 purchase, and if you get sick of it you can throw NetBSD on it. ;)

  • Death is Good? (Score:3)

    by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @08:32AM (#334399) Homepage Journal
    The best thing that ever happened to the Dreamcast was its failure.

    Because it brought the price down? Has it occured to you that nobody is going to write games for a discontinued platform?

    __

  • You know all the posts about "PS2" sucks are a bunch of crap. I love my PS2 especially now that more games are coming out. Just like any other system the initial games aren't that amazing.. give it time. After a year of developers ecperimenting with it it will blow the doors off of Dreamcast, only to have the doors blown of it a year or two later. There are some games I would like to play on DC, Shenmue is probably the only one, but I'd never buy one. Why? Because I knew how sega handled their systems... poor support, and a new machine after a ridiculously short time. I did have a Genesis and loved it for game like Shining Force. But if you'll recall the initial games for the DC were awful, there wasn't a single game that interested me, and it wasn't until Shenmue that one did.

    All in all I don't get as much enjoyment from a console that I do from a PC game (mmm Fallout Tactics... drool), because they are never as in depth and they just don't offer the flexibility of a good computer game. But realistically (sp?) none of the big consoles suck, they wouldn't be here if they did.

  • Sega just can't get off the sauce (Score:3)

    by tenzig_112 ( 213387 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @08:33AM (#334401) Homepage
    Who is going to trust Sega's next proto-flop? They sound like your friend's drunk dad. "I promise, Timmy. This time will be different." But it's not. The products just get killed faster now.

    As far as comparing the PS2 and DC, just remember this: it's easy to love a dead man. I've played both and, sure, the DC is a great device inside a poorly conceived marketing and integration shell. But it's dead. If someone asked me if Maralyn Monroe was hotter than my wife, I would say "sure, but she's dead." [ridiculopathy.com]

  • Dreamcast is cool and all, but how can you seriously complement the controller? It's the only controller I've ever used that is actually painful to use. The D-pad is sharp and pointy, the hand-grips force you to hold your wrists at an uncomfortable angle. The analog triggers are nice, but that's hardly a consolation when I've torn the skin on my thumb from using the directional pad.

  • I think the dreamcast was a pretty good machine, however I think the timing of it's release was just bad. Idealy it should have been released to compete with the N64 and playstation however it's a generation behind. Not only that but with competitors like the playstation + the years weeks months of antisipation it was bound to fail. I like many other people chose not to buy a DreamCast but instead to save my cash for a PS2. Just like the Jaguar, an excellent machine, but given cost, and compition it fell in a bad lot. It was a good run for it's money with a few good titles, however not godo enough.

  • Sega makes great systems and games. I don't know why they won't follow through. Sega Master System was technically better than the Nintendo Entertainment System. Unfortunately, Nintendo had the marketing (and developers) to come out on top. Perfect example of this is my parents always referring to my Sega Master System (and every other video game) as "Nintendo".

    Then along came the Genesis, great system, great games. Probably their biggest success, more powerful than the SNES, but only had 16 colors, images didn't look as crisp as on the SNES, and once again the marketing of the SNES outdid them.

    Sega released the Sega CD. However this didn't really improve anything except that they could have full motion videos (even more grainy than the pixels). The price tag was high, and Sega abandoned it because it was not selling. A lot of my friends bought this and were very disappointed in the games support.

    Sega then thought if they could improve the capabilities, it would sell more units, Behold the Sega 32x. This was abandoned so fast it made peoples head spin.

    Enter the Sega Saturn, like the article says .. they were just outhyped and outmarketed by the Playstation and the playstation was actually better. Bad timing I guess.

    Every one of their consoles (I'm leaving out the nomad which died because of battery life) was abandoned prematurely. I liked the Sega Dreamcast and vowed to buy one when phantasy star online came out. Fortunately, I heard the news about them abandoning it right when Phantasy Star was released. Which made me decide not to buy one. I think if this came out at launch time, there would have been lots of units sold. Let's face it people buy console to play their favorite games.

    Sega made some truly great stuff and will be missed. It is unfortunate that with as much talent they have had, it is blinded by Sega's very poor marketing throughout the years.

  • From the article:

    the wealthy benefactor who donated more than ¥135bn ($1.1bn) to Sega before his death earlier this month.

    He donated a billion dollars to Sega? That's sickening. I know it's cliche, but it's sad to think of what good could have been done with that money.

  • Yet during his tenure, Sega paid little attention to marketing. "The idea was, 'if the product is good, it will sell itself'," recalls one former manager.

    As far as I remember Commodore had the same policy about marketing. And we all know what happend to them. Now, at the time when marketing is the most important thing, something like this was inevitable.
  • The downfall of sega has very little to do with bad marketing and even the saturn (althought that was a bomb to be sure.) The dreamcast had nearly everything, in some cases it was better than the PS2 (dont kill me please) it had working internet and a wide variety of games that cost less than 50 dollars a pop. The one thing that sega didnt have that was more or less out of there control was the cross compatibility with old games the same way the PS2 did with the original PS. It is true that a product called "Bleem" was released to allow that, but THAT was very poorely marketed, very few consumers knew about it.
  • Then there was the network connection: a modem would raise manufacturing costs by about ¥3,000-¥4,000 a console but most executives agreed that US gamers, at least, would pay no more than $199 (£140).

    Well, this is particularly annoying. I hate it when journalists throw in all kinds of different units, apparantly at random. And how the hell did pounds come into the picture. She didn't use them before in the article.

    Unless it is in a quote, all units should be converted to the same system. I see reporters mix gallons with liters and pounds with kilos all the time. I guess they don't remember their high school chemistry or physics lessons very well. Either that or they really want to flex their character set and type the '¥' character. How often does one get to do that?

    I'm just making mountians out of molehills.


  • The genesis would be the only Sega console I would consider stil purchasing, if only for the RPGs released on it. Although there are alternatives **cough**emulators**cough**, I would still love to have the orriginals of these games. Near the end of the Genisis' lifetime Sega released the SegaCD, and um.. that other thingie that plugged into the contrige slot. That really split the developement for games, people didn't want to buy both. Nintendo managed to keep the SNES (still my favorite console system) going very strongly, they never split the system like Sega did.
    =\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\ =\=\=\
  • Who cares? When the games dry up, try and get NetBSD running on it instead and get some use out of it.

    -Dom (thinking about buying one)
  • Nope. Genesis started out in front, but the SNES was waaay ahead by the time the next wave of consoles (Playstation, Saturn) was coming.
  • Geeks don't have any clue what "marketing" really is. It's just an easy scapegoat (Classic example: Microsoft has good marketing. IBM OS/2 had bad marketing. End of story) or something that is superficially seen as only the quality or amount of the advertising.

    The real heart of 'marketing' is product positioning, product tying, pricing strategy, distribution strategy, and so on. For example, IBM spent far more money promoting OS/2 than Microsoft spent promoting Windows. But IBM got almost all of the above factors wrong, and Microsoft got it right. But everyone saw a stupid IBM commercial with nuns in it, and therefore they can point their finger at that instead of the numerous strategic fuckups that IBM made.

    There's a similar argument to be made about Apple in the mid-90s. Their product line up was a confusing, overpriced mess, the clone licencees weren't helping them, they had huge production planning problems, and they had no clue who their primary markets were. Yet the Mac faithful was bitching about the quality of the advertising.

    On topic, in Sega's case, their marketing failure was that they designed hardware that required a huge loss to get it out at the $199 price point. Note that the feature set and price point are almost purely marketing decisions. They didn't have the capital to sustain these losses endlessly until the market was mature and the production costs were cheaper. Boom - they had to fold their tent.
  • Why pay a premium for something when you can't get what you want out of it.

    You could have bought the ps2 for a lot less money and hassle if you waited until MGS2.

    Like buying a dvd player before dvd's come out.

  • Re:Death is Good? (Score:3)

    by __aawwih8715 ( 4861 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @08:49AM (#334414)
    Linux runs on it too.
    just check out the main emulation sites and they have instructions.

    http://linuxdc.sourceforge.net/

    Broadband adapter is in the code now.

    100 dollar terminal anyone?

    Hopethe rc5 cracker is ported :)
  • Interesting. Will the moderator mod me down? It didn't have much pleasant imagery, but it was quite on the spot.
  • Um.....sonic?
    Soul Caliber?

    NFL 2k, NBA 2k, NHL 2k

    Would have been better if sega would have gotten their head out of their ass and gotten EA to port to their console.

    True, not a lot of games came out and not all that did come out were quality. If you ask me, a lot of them were missing features (such as MULTIPLAYER).
  • Not true, I am neither a teenager, nor a teenager in an adault body (no more so than any other 25 year old who plays video games). Like I said give it time. I really liked Master of Bushido, and have been playing a lot of Onimusha, I'd play the PS2 more if I didn't have a computer. I'd buy a DC if I knew it was going to be supported. I enjoy games, and stating that one particular platform is bad is making a generality that is hard to prove. There have been very few systems that completely bombed, and neither DC nor PS2 is one of them.
  • Personally, I really like the DC controller. Most of my friends don't seem to have a problem with it, either. The Playstation controller always felt too small in my hands. I also don't like the 4 shoulder buttons...

    My favorite controller ever was probably the six button Genesis style, or the Saturn controller (which was almost the same thing).

    Josh Sisk

  • Crazy Taxi would have been twice the game if it included multiplayer.

    I find it a lot more fun to compete with others instead of myself or a clock or any AI.
  • I agree... having owned a DC for a while and just played several games on PS2, the DC costs way less and looks better.

    The PS2 games beat original PSX games up, but they don't compare very well against DC or PC games. N64 generally goes for a totally different look to its games, but it is behind DC as well.

    -m


  • Don't forget EA.

    All those sports games nuts would have bought DC's for the EA games.

    If nfl 2k and 2k1 which had very little redeeming value in gameplay, but very good graphics and everything else includeing online multiplayer and managed to get into the top 10 for a while, imagine how well dreamcast would have done if it had the EA games.

  • Uhh, you decided NOT to buy the system? What the hell is wrong with you. The DC is only $99. Controllers and memory cards start at $20 and cheaper. Used games of the classic must haves are plentiful and cheap. The system is a bargain. Ever since I got my DC in november (when it dropped to $150) I haven't touched my Playstation. I've logged over 200 on Phantasy Star Online alone. Buy the system. Goto any game site and look at the best video games of 2000. Many of the best games of 2000 are DC titles, you don't want to miss out. You could probably get a used DC with a bunch of games for $150 bucks. A similar PS2 setup would cost you close to half a grand.
  • It saddens me about Sega's situation, but as long as I have my Atari to play Missile Command, I am a happy camper.
  • I just purchased a Dreamcast a few weeks ago, was away for a month and needed something to do in my spare time. I figured the $100 was well spent even thought it was discontinued. (I spent a lot of time playing Resident Evil 2).

    The graphics are great, the controller is decent (some people have complained, but I despise most other controllers, so this one isn't bad).

    What I want is a PC-Hardware compatibility catridge.. something I can plug my VGA monitor, my keyboard, and mouse into. Why? (Dreamcast has VGA out with an awkward pinnout). All of this is available seperately, but I'd love the whole set in one little box.

    And I'd like to find the 10baseT adapter somewhere...

    My last item on my wishlist is an MP3 player that is good enough I could drop my Dreamcast in the trunk to play MP3s in my car. (The hardware is damn near perfect for such a concept; really, at $100 it is cheap, the controllers are high-speed serial (2mbit) and support an LCD panel (in VMU) already. So, a little redesign and rebuild and one should have a faceplate with easy, full controls... now if I could only hack hardware.


  • N64 was 200 dollars at launch, same as playstation. Nintendo is very realistic when it prices its consoles and always makes them affordable.

    N64 didn't keep up with playstation because it was harder to develop for and the cartridges were too small. Thats only reason. The software taht did come out was usually of very very high quality, especially stuff that nintendo and second party's did.

    My .02

  • I just ordered one, and got it in three days. You can't buy them anywhere beyond their site.

    It's awesome.

  • Phantasy Star Online 2.0 not 2.
    Same game, just patched thats all.

  • Yup (Score:4)

    by Galvatron ( 115029 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @09:24AM (#334429)
    You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Japanese have had GDP growth of about 9% annually in the period from 1850 to 1985. Compare that to average US growth in the same period of 2.5-3%. The Japanese were willing to spend their whole lives working, and saved all the money they made (two sure ways to economic success).

    Unfortunately, they never created a solid business model. Hard work and frugality will get you a long way, but with their concept of lifetime employment people often ended up in the wrong jobs, were unproductive, and spent more time posturing than working.

    They also have no idea how to deal with the international community. They tend to deal with businessmen from other countries as though they were Japanese, and so they fail miserably. Look at how they handled DC. It was doing fairly well here in America. Why not merely discontinue production in Japan? Or if they don't want to deal with it themselves, why not spin off a DC America company?

    Anyway, the disaster that is Japan is one of the strongest arguments in favor of free markets and a well designed democracy there is.

  • Problem is, the price of consoles depends on where it is sold, hence quoting it's price in a given currency. It is a little annoying, a comparison chart should be included, and a note as to why the prices are given as such.). I'm Canadian, and spent almost 2 months in the U.S. recently, I noticed that the price of pop/soda (Pepsi/Coke...) was higher than in Canada. Well, the 'price' was almost the same, but, if you factored in the current exchange rate it was probably 25%-30% more expensive to buy it in the U.S. (Actually, almost everything which is under $25 is more expensive in the U.S. after doing a price conversion; above $25 it varies depending on product category)
  • Consoles have never been made out of entirely custom chips. That's way too expensive, even for Sony.

    NES, Genesis and SNES all had off-the-shelf CPU designs. They all also featured custom graphics chips. The reason SNES was "better" was because it was nearly three years younger than Genesis. Saturn used off-the-shelf CPUs (SH-2s) and three custom graphics chips. N64 used a MIPS R4000 CPU (old SGI design) and custom graphics (also by SGI), PSX used an R3000 (even older SGI design) and custom graphics. PS2 uses a R5000 (reletively dated SGI design) as the CPU. Gamecube is using a PowerPC.

    Dreamcast fits this too. There was a PC version of the 3D tech used in DC, but make no mistake, the DC version of the PowerVR2 was the first. Considering the cost of the machine, Dreamcast still outclases PS2. There isn't a PS2 game out there that looks better than DC's best. They may come, but Dreamcast's hardware was never part of the equation. The hardware, and the tools to use it, are the best out there in terms of price and performance.

    Why do you think the machine has become a hacker's favorite toy?
  • this isn't offtopic.. fuck you mods...
  • You know, I do agree with you...but there are soooo many good DC games out there anyway.

    Just a sampling...

    Soul Calibur (Possibly the best launch game for any system EVER)
    Crazy Taxi
    Phantasy Star Online
    Jet Grind Radio
    NFL2k
    Tony Hawk 1/2
    Shenmue
    Skies of Arcadia / Grandia 2
    Test Drive LeMans
    MSR

    And lets not forget the strangest game ever: SEAMAN!

    Pete

  • Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry... (Score:5)

    by weave ( 48069 ) on Wednesday March 28, 2001 @09:41AM (#334434) Journal

    I jinxed the console. I predicted it's death the day I bought one at midnight on 9/9/99.

    You see, any console I buy fails. Any console I don't purchase succeeds.

    My history:

    • Nintendo NES: Didn't buy one. Was interested in something that blew the socks off of NES. It was the...
    • 3DO: $700 when it first came out, but I waited until it dropped to only $400. Soon after I purchased it, it was clear it was doomed due to the success of...
    • Playstation: I never got one. It's been a ragging success. I figured I'd wait for the next generation of gaming system which was:
    • Nintendo 64: Super Mario 64 was just so incredible at the time. I had to get one. Games dribbled out, and most of them sucked. They all looked like Super Mario 64 but with a different script. The only decent game I ever bought was Zelda 64. An incredible title. But I felt like N64 was a loser system. So I set out to find a new love. It was...
    • Sega Dreamcast: I got my hands on a Japanesse model in early 99 and was blown away. Couldn't wait until 9/9/99 to get my own. I had heard about this PS2 thing coming out, but figured that history would doom it. Atari was once a dominant game system but never repeated it. Nintendo was #1 with NES but never recovered that title. So this "PS2" thing just had to fail. I figured, screw the PS2, I'll get me a Dreamcast. Sigh...
    • Playstation 2: So now the PS2 is selling as fast as they can make them. Even though many say the Dreamcast is still a better system, it's now dead. Well, I'm not buying a PS2. Instead I think I'll wait and buy a...
    • X Box: If anyone from Microsoft is reading this, I'll consider a large cash bribe not to buy your box. But I think I will anyway. Microsoft deserves to be a victim of my curse...
  • Not a bad buisness model, except they dropped it after 8months and 6 games. there by alienating 60-80% of their user base and they never recovered from this. I know as a child about half of my friends had a sega and the other half had nintendo's. after the 32x 100% of us had a n64 and/or playstation but no one bought a saturn of a dreamcast because we all knew that sega would just rape our asses for money.
  • I don't know why this post I'm replying to is modded to 3, Interesting. The poster sounds like an uninformed kid who just can't stay open-minded for a moment.

    Here's my take on everything. For reference, I have the Dreamcast, PS2, N64, and had most of the consoles previous to those dating back to the Atari/Odyssey2/Intellivision days.

    1. Sega didn't need to put in the modem. How many people actually used it? It was wasted money.
    2. Sega released the Dreamcast at a bad time. They should've released it much earlier. People had just gotten over buying the N64 and spent their $250 (or whatever). On top of that, N64 games were coming out at a greater rate and the system was establishing a good foothold on the video gaming industry. Of course, I didn't mention the Sony PS which was already around too, with tons of great games. Why then should a consumer go out and spend more on a new system (Sony, Sega, or otherwise) when they just bought something?!? There wasn't a need for a new system because the one's that were out were still good. I don't know about you, but not everyone out there is going to be able to buy 2 systems in such a short span of time. This was a big flaw in their Dreamcast plan.
    3. This I don't know the facts on - was it released in the US right away or in Japan first? I think it should've hit the US right away.
    4. Poor advertising & marketing - they should've taken the money that they were spending on that stupid modem and put it towards putting the Dreamcast in front of people's faces more.
    5. The technology is good, but it isn't going to be able to keep up with the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube. Again - bad timing - it is 3.5 generation while the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube are 4th generation machines (1 being - Atari, SNES & etc, 2 - Sega Genesis, Turbo Grafx, Super Nintendo, 2.5 -Saturn, 3 - Sony Playstation, N64 sort of). The Saturn suffered the same fate - bad timing to me.
    6. Sony is huge - Sony has a LOT more resources to work with. They don't just make video games. Sega had all their eggs in one basket pretty much. So, Sony can take a hit in one area and stick with it if it wants. Sega isn't getting revenue from other sources - just video games. Nintendo has other products out there that has really kept it afloat - the Game Boy is one example and the Pokemon franchise is another.
    And that's really the main ones to me.

    Is the Dreamcast a crappy system? Absolutely not. I think it is great, or I should say WAS great. The technology just wasn't timed right. It SHOULD'VE been out at the same time the N64 came out.

    But I honestly won't buy any more games for it because I don't have the time to play it or the money to spend on it. My kids love their N64, so we keep buying games for that, and I love my PC (which can be upgraded when new technology arrives) and the PS2. I know the PS2 games will keep getting better. The Dreamcast is sadly not going to be played often except for Crazy Taxi and Soul Calibur every once in a blue moon.

    It may not sound believable, but I really liked the Sega games. They were good. Sonic looked like it was a little rough around the edges at times, but basically the games were terrific for the Dreamcast. It just won't be able to compete.

    Now, the PS2, that is a VERY forward looking machine. All that crap about the developers having a tough time with it - well give them a little time. All they needed to do is create their own development kits/libraries. Most probably have done that already, so you should see the games getting cranked out much faster now. I don't know what the poster's basis is behind saying that the Dreamcast is way better than the PS2 crap.

    Well, I've said enough. I really think Sega's timing was the big factor with marketing and advertising close behind.

    They made the right decision to go software only though. They need to become lean and mean right now. And as everyone knows - building consoles is a losing proposition - it's the software you make money on.

    Chris

  • sega always goes out first with the 'next gen' machines. they did it with genesis and they did it with saturn then dreamcast. that just lets the competition sit back and see what technogoies they can steal and out-do from sega. if sega would just sit back and let someone else push ahead for a change, they might have a better chance.
  • I mean, no mention of DC Linux? Christ. What the fuck was the guy thinking, informing us that we can transform our Dreamcasts into a low-cost MP3 server that people might be interested in in response to a story about Dreamcasts?
  • Okay, so I don't have either a PSX or a PS2 (don't plan to buy one soon either). But isn't the PS2 controller basically identical to the second-gen PS1 controller?

    (And I actually like the DreamCast controller -- it's a bit large for a child but it has just about the right feel for me. It's a bit ugly, but it works.)

    /Brian
  • I'd say half a generation. It's still more horsepower than a 1st-gen iMac, or so I'm told, and those aren't terribly slouchy systems (graphics are a bit weak, but that's another story).

    /Brian
  • An instant-classic RPG, just a lot of fun. Sky Pirates! Flying battleships! Ship-to-ship combat! A game world that actually feels as big as it's supposed to be!

    If it had fewer annoying random encounters, and a better variety of monsters (why do I always feel like I'm fighting a salad?), it would be perfect.

    Jon

  • Phantasy Star Online
    Sega GT
    Test Drive Lemans
    Metropolis Street Racer
    Sonic Adventure
    Jet Grind Radio
    Crazy Taxi
    Resident Evil: Code Veronica
    Shenmue
    Grandia II
    Skies of Arcadia
    NFL 2K1
    NBA 2K1
    Daytona USA 2001
    F355 Challenge
    Quake III
    Unreal Tournament
    Soul Calibur
    Virtua Tennis

    If games like these are the result of bungling a system, we can only hope that PS2 or X-Box can completely goof in their efforts to give us a decent console.

    There is no better time to get a Dreamcast. Systems and games are cheap (I found my system and many of my games used), and the Dreamcast has perhaps the best library of games (considering the size of the library) for any system, ever.

    Don't forget, we still have Sonic Adventure 2, Crazy Taxi 2, Phantasy Star Online v.2, NFL 2k2, Virtua Tennis 2, Floigan Bros., Headhunter, Shenmue II, Outrigger, Alone in the Dark, and many many more to look forward to.

  • Re:The Japanese. (Score:-1, Offtopic)
    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28, @09:36AM PDT (#87)

    This is the common perception in US and Japan, but this is wrong.

    The Japanese were kicking ass in the 80's because they had access to almost free capitol.

    As soon as the recession hit, and the (essentially ) free money dried up, they looked as tough as wet sack of sh*t

    Not offtopic at all. Posted at 2 for your pleasure, moderators. BTW, If people don't want to read AC posts, they don't need moderation help.
  • I bought my dreamcast about 1 week before i heard they were going to stop producing them, so i paid full price but it was worth my money. Unreal tournament and quake 3 are so fun to play on a big tv instead of a monitor.
  • Hmmm... I'm not the only one out there who thought the original Sonic seemed like a bit of an unfinished symphony. I've been playing it obsessively (until I fried my controller with a static burst a couple of days ago :-( ) since I got my Dreamcast.

    I bought my Dreamcast after it dropped through the floor myself, primarily for hack value (even though I haven't tried to hack it yet). I would never have bought a DC when it first came out because of the WinCE factor, though -- it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was a major cause of its weak sales.

    /Brian
  • However, there are a few companies that have managed to defy your description of Japanese companies.

    Four companies I know of--Honda, Toyota, Sony and Matsushita Electric--have done well because were willing to adapt themselves to the needs of various international markets.

    Think about it: when it comes to reasonably-priced quality automobiles, the brand names of Honda and Toyota always is more or less on top of the list. And when it comes to consumer electrical products, the names of Sony and Panasonic (Matshushita's worldwide brand name) also comes to mind to most people worldwide.

    That is the reason why Sony Playstation became such a huge hit. And because Sony was able to leverage their brand recognition, it was able to outmarket all its competition and become #1 in console game systems.
  • Don't worry man, your luck is about to change, there is no way the PS2 will succeed now, and if you want a sure winner, go with the gameboy advance when it comes out! (or buy one from Japan for $180).
  • I think the only real question is: did Nintendo maybe bury a Sega Genesis in your backyard, or something?
  • Yes, he donated the money to a company who he had worked for and invested in for many years of his life, which employs hundreds of people around the world and would have very probably gone under had he not. Now Sega has a secure (and rosy) future, and will continue to flourish as a fitting legacy to this dedication.

    Get your facts straight before making glib judgements.

  • I had the same problem with the stock Sega pad, especially the D-pad, but I got a Mad Katz third-party controller, and all that went away.

    I actually prefer the Mad Katz Dreamcast controller to the Playstation/PS2 analog controllers! The analog joystick is more responsive, for one thing. This is saying a lot, because the PSX/PS2 controller was previously the best I had ever seen!

    Only slight problem was that the Mad Katz VMU port took a little while to break in before it worked reliably.

    Jon

  • stating that one particular platform is bad is making a generality that is hard to prove

    Consoles can differ in many ways: power, developer relations, and ease of programming, among others. All of which can contribute to on average higher or lower quality games.

    PS2 is initially worse off on the ease-of-programming bit, but who knows what the future holds?
    --

  • Am I the only one who absoultely dispises the PS d-pad? With the four parts ocming through the plastic it's just painful at times. Dispite 3 generations of controllers they never did make itany better.
    ----
  • ...did Nintendo maybe bury a Sega Genesis in your backyard, or something?

    Hmm, no. But I did rent a Mega drive system from a corner shop while visiting friends in the UK several years ago...

  • Tell me Sega and/or the game developer and/or anyone who uses the Katana devsystem for a shipping product doesn't wind up paying a royalty to MS no matter what. (BillyBoy probably gets a per-unit just to silkscreen the logo on the front anyway...)

    /Brian
  • Both of the Turok games were pretty fun, too. (not the 3rd, which was BS deathmatch)

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