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Games Entertainment

Wireless Controllers for Consoles 55

Posted by michael from the copper-conservation dept.
captaincucumber writes: "Robert X. Cringley has an interesting article on his PBS Pulpit site about a new technology called SPIKE coming out of the gaming industry that will compete with Bluetooth here. As an interesting plus Cringley talks a little bit about proprietary vs. open standards."
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Wireless Controllers for Consoles More

Wireless Controllers for Consoles

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  • He missed one... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Technologies are either developed by committees, which is to say in a very public process leading toward standardization and broad use, or they are developed in private and sprung on the world by folks hoping to make a lot of money for their proprietary work.

    On the contrary, HTML was neither developed by committee nor sprung on the world in pursuit of profit. While of course it was based on the rather overambitious SGML, which bears all the hallmarks of committee design, the early HTML designs were the brainchild of one man alone --- and he released quite a whirlwind indeed!

  • Mr. Cringeley's unbiased opinion... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    He's apparently on the payroll at Eleven Engineering. From a press release at www.eleveneng.com: "For immediate release: Edmonton, Canada, September 07, 2000. Eleven Engineering welcomes Joseph D. Thompson to Board of Directors and ***Robert X. Cringely as Special Advisor to the Board of Directors.***..."
  • And what's to stop us from eventually, at some point, using the same technology to buy gas, order groceries, call for AAA, etc?

    I think something like this was attempted already in the violent landscape of Consumer America, right? I seem to recall something like this being cracked and misused quite spectacularly recently ...

    This sort of thing must be doing wonders for the various individual encryption rights efforts going on right now ...
  • Well, the $6.25 is just for the chip; obviously any final product would cost more. If I recall correctly, there was a $30-$40 wireless controller for the SNES nearly a decade ago. That's not too much different, all things considered.
  • Ah ok, that makes sense. As an embeddable technology it is interesting. The Slashdot headline ("Wireless Controllers for Consoles") was a bit misleading, since wireless controllers for consoles aren't particularly interesting or new.
  • just goes to show that all the meetings and corporate backing in the world can't necessarily produce a better product.
  • Hmm and yet the HTML version is still full of frames and high bandwidth pictures.

    Yes, but it still sucks less than the Flash version, as far as I'm concerned.

  • Re:spike sounds cool (Score:3)

    by Guy Harris ( 3803 ) <guy@alum.mit.edu> on Monday May 21, 2001 @09:37PM (#206746)
    It has some annoying javascript/flash but it has a lot of useful information.

    And if you find stuff that uses Flash instead of Boring Old HTML extremely irritating (I certainly do; I just want to read some text, not wait for some animated crap to pop up), you can get a Boring Old HTML version at http://www.spike-wireless.com/main.html [spike-wireless.com].

  • obviously any final product would cost more.

    Oh, I was talking about getting them for embeddable, wearable computing. Watches that transmit voice and data to Nukunuku, my active house. You know... that kinda thing. The stuff involving a solidering iron.

    The site about the technology is here: http://www.spike-wireless.com/ . and they've already released a real product as a demonstration of the tech. $40 will net you a Playstation (and PS2) wireless controller... it looks like they've been for sale for awhile, since they have a gallery of print ads on their site. Have any gamers used them or heard reviews? http://www.airplay.ca/ It's called the Airplay.

    --
    Evan

  • Have any gamers used them or heard reviews? http://www.airplay.ca/ It's called the Airplay.

    Before people hammer that, I figured out that the Airplay does *NOT* use this new technology... the links on Eleven Engineering's sites just makes it seem like it does. The new Airplay2 (just for PS2 and PSOne), which appears not to be available retail yet (I guess that was what they were demoing at E3) has the Spike chip installed.

    (I call dibs on making a wireless controller called the Speigal).

    --
    Evan

  • As for the article describing voice traffic as a possable use, this is just laughable. All rcent cordless phones use the "DACT" protocol, which, is a true standard, and, ensures interoprability between base sations and handsets from different manufacturers and supports all the stuff you would expect a cordless phone to do. ( I don't think SPIKEs private protocol includes "call on another line" and "hold current call"!).

    You know, it would help if you read the documentation. It is *very* vague, but I'm pretty sure that what happens is that 16 units (plus a base station, which may or may not have a very different chipset, but it isn't mentioned) get 4 channels. Each of these 4 channels can broadcast single or bidirectional, and can be assigned quickly between all 16 devices.

    Doing a bit of quick math, if it's sterio, and bidirectional, you've actually got 16 channels, which seems to be a hardware limitation they like. At any rate, there seems to be some sort of nice linking and assignment mechanism which can link sets of controllers together and route streams to their target.

    Not bad for a "laughable" technology. Since you have a digital channel for every device (one of their examples is a DVD controller), they can easily have a full keypad for "call on another line" and "hold current call".

    In FACT, the (apparent... I'm calling them this morning) specs on this chip is fundimentally (minus some programming) the same as my AT&T 4 line phone system - only it's wireless. I can call any extension, pick a line, and send signals like "announce" and such on a digital subchannel.

    --
    Evan

  • Umm, wireless controllers for consoles have been out for years.

    How about ones that use a $6.25 chip that is shipping now that frequency hops, uses spread spectrum, outperforms bluetooth (which is at $100 a chip), and has a 50 MIPS RISC processor on-board that can be used as a processor for the unit itself, driving LCDs or other I/O panels.

    Again, all for $6.25.

    At least, that what he claims... now it's time to hit the site, and quite possibly order a few of these puppies (if they ship in low quantities).

    --
    Evan

  • Here, though, I think that the idea is to have the wireless controllers coming standard with the game console. I think that any of us who have ever had a regular ninentdo, SNES, Genesis, or any other console can remember the problems with the cords, and if everything was wireless from the get go, It would make for a much nicer video gaming experience. Imagine sittng back in the recliner with the controlloer, and playing on the 32" Screen, and not having to worr that somebody is goin to trip on a wire and send things crashing down. I seriously think that if they started making these SPIKE controllers standard on video game systems, it could definitely increse sales, not to mention the great stuff that people would eventually create as a result.
  • Some people would have dispelled the incipient confusion by reading and thinking about the article. But I understand that's not the fashionable thing to do around here...
  • Of course, it HAS to be Radio based.

    I had a IR system for the original PS that rocked hard, up until the point where my room-mate would send large german shepards to stand in front of the receiver on my side, thereby blocking the signal and allowing him to pull off the 40 keypress secret-kill-all-incarnations-with-one-hit-of-my-li ttle-finger-of-death attack without harm.

    One of the original Denial of Service attacks. YOU tell the 85lbs G.S.Dog to move where it doesn't want to!

  • Some friends of mine went to E3 and were talking about the wireless controllers. They seemed to think that the wireless models were the default for the Gamecube, although the article implies that they're sold separately.

    Personally, I hope they're optional. I sure as hell don't want to swap out a few AA batteries every 8 hours of game play. And besides, do you really need to be able to play from 30 feet away? Hell, you probably can't even make out the screen from that far.

  • Nintendo's Wavebird (Score:3)

    by m3000 ( 46427 ) on Monday May 21, 2001 @09:25PM (#206755)
    Nintendo is planning to launch a wireless controller, sold seperatly, with the Gamecube. It's going to be called the Wavebird, and it looks pretty much like the regular Gamecube controller, except that it's wireless and works from up to 30 feet away. IGN has some details [ign.com].

    Wireless controllers themselves are nothing new anyways in the third party world anyways.
  • It has some annoying javascript/flash but it has a lot of useful information.

    And if you find stuff that uses Flash instead of Boring Old HTML extremely irritating (I certainly do; I just want to read some text, not wait for some animated crap to pop up), you can get a Boring Old HTML version at http://www.spike-wireless.com/main.html [spike-wireless.com].

    Hmm and yet the HTML version is still full of frames and high bandwidth pictures.
  • This looks like a really cool idea for standardization. It has everything that bluetooth has and more. The only thing missing is a lot of financial backing. Imagine using the same game controller for your Dreamcast, Xbox, Nintendo, and PC. Imagine it being cost effective because the controllers are produced by many different vendors using inexpensive chipsets. And it's wireless! This is absolutely amazing. I hate how I can buy a logitech keyboard but can't use it with an Intel wireless station. Let's see a standard.

    One question, I do have is: What's to stop you from accessing your friends system across the street? I know this is short range but the controller will still have to "log in" to the base station. How will this be accomplished? Imagine a Quakecon and everybody is using these things. Hopefully it won't be chaos.

    The official web site is here: http://www.spike-wireless.com/ [spike-wireless.com] It has some annoying javascript/flash but it has a lot of useful information.


  • where technology roamed the wires, and innovators dominated the world. There was the newest craze in high tech, yes the ultimate product offering ever to hit any market.

    Many touted this technology as the next best thing, and companies flocked to support it raising capital from all walks of business life. The technology grew so fast, and was quite loved by many, so it could never faulter in the eyes of those who praised the new technology.

    While it grew to new heights while slumbering in "almost-there-ville", everyone awaited its presence as it would signal the end of an era, and beginning of new life. Day after day everyone waited patiently.

    Finally the new technology was ready to take its place in the world and reign supreme, sadly there was already a newer technology who'd already taken over its role...

    Only on the Internet ;)

  • hmm (Score:1)

    by TomL ( 63825 )
    as cool as the standard might be, the technology isn't new. wireless products have been on the market for years, and are fairly inexpensive. that includes game controllers. the whole deal of bluetooth being anything special is the interconnectivity thing. i fail to see this as anything with a coolness level near bluetooth (if bluetooth ever gets mainstream and functions the way it was meant to).

  • Re:Why wireless for consoles? (Score:3)

    by RollingThunder ( 88952 ) on Monday May 21, 2001 @09:57PM (#206760)
    Actually, there's something to be said for playing from five feet away, with no zones-of-death in front of you, where the dog, cat, and your mother all manage to rip the cable out of the system by walking into the damn thing for the eigth time.
  • thinks Bluetooth will be so successful that it will completely fill the 2.4-GHz frequency and the only hope for any competing solution is maybe to handle the overflow in some different frequency range.

    I don't see why, especially with the ranges of the devices so small. It should be interesting to see how the different types of network interact when you bring devices within range of each other though. People making network jammers should also be a nuisance, although they may just decide to sneak in a bluetooth-enabled bug to sniff your network.

    I'd also just like to say that this story has the mo.

  • Tired of losing your controllers all the time? Want to jump into a game without looking all over the house for the place where your dog carried your game pad off to?

    Just attach The Wire(TM) and your troubles will be over! No more hunting around for lost controllers! No additional expensive circuitry to beep at you!

    To install, simply attach The Wire(TM) to the back of your controller and to the front of your game console. Ready to play a game? Just follow The Wire(TM) from your game console, and Bingo!, you've found the controller!

    To purchase The Wire(TM), please send $99.95 to:
    Artemis, Inc.
    P.O. Box 3
    Walla Walla Washington

  • NetWare's IPX and SPX protocols have always been owned by Novell.

    Ever heard of the XNS protocols IPP and SPP? Ever look at how little Novell changed them when they adopted them?

    Bluetooth... has been coming for several years and has almost no competition -- until now.

    Ever heard of 802.11?

    In a couple years, experts tell us Bluetooth will cost only $5.00, but by then SPIKE will be down to a buck. Whatever SPIKE costs, Bluetooth will always cost more.

    Cringely here is confusing the total cost passed on to the consumer, project to drop to $10 for bluetooth within a few years, with the chip price. Generally, the cost passed on to the consumer is an order of magnitude higher than the chip cost; Intel expect bluetooth chips to eventually drop to the $0.25 to $0.50 range. In fact, lower cost seems to be the only point in favor of Bluetooth over 802.11! At any rate, the comment "Bluetooth will always cost more" is blatant speculation -- costs will depend on the volume of each produced.

    ...multithreaded (eight threads, total) RISC processor...

    Since when is the number of threads supported dependent on the processor? Does Linux support a different number of threads, depending on what CPU it's running on?

    I'm too lazy to do the research... can anybody else come up with power consumption numbers for Bluetooth vs. SPIKE? Didn't some company come up with a chip that increases Bluetooth range?

  • Try here [computerworld.com].
  • Last year, they were saying the chip price for Bluetooth should drop to $5 in 2001. Anybody have up-to-date pricing info?
  • Anything on what these things are like security-wise? There's enough problems with wireless security right now. This is clearly going to be a major issue in whatever takes the fore in serious networked environments.
  • This article describes a proprieteary digital wireless protocol.

    So what there are dozens of these and they have been around for years.

    When I wiggle my mouse it is a cordless Logitec which uses logitecs proprietory wireless protocol. ( I think Logtec also do a cordless console for the popular gaming platforms).

    As for the article describing voice traffic as a possable use, this is just laughable. All rcent cordless phones use the "DACT" protocol, which, is a true standard, and, ensures interoprability between base sations and handsets from different manufacturers and supports all the stuff you would expect a cordless phone to do. ( I don't think SPIKEs private protocol includes "call on another line" and "hold current call"!).

    Sure the SPIKE chipset will find a niche in the gaming console market but its not new, it is not an innivation, its not even different.

    The article also failed to mention the real threat to bleutooth is form competing open protocols (like IEEE 20??? ) and from wireless network cards which tunnel existing protocols (ethernet, TCP/IP and LAN etc.).

  • Would this mean that if I had an X-Box, and someone in the next room or or the floor above (within range) had one, both with SPIKE, then we'd be able to play head to head without trailing wires everywhere?

    I couldn't find specific frequency info on the SPIKE site - it just said RF - so I dunno how much a signal would be attenuated by walls; perhaps some sort of booster could come in handy.

    Just thinking out loud here...

  • I already have a pair of wireless Atari joysticks [ebay.com] sitting in my closet.

    Forget bluetooth or anything else, let's just make adapters for these to interface with new consoles. Fire up the old Atari factory and start churning out these heavy black beauties again.

    This way I can compete with the twitch monkeys. No need for those 12 buttons, just give me the One Atari Orange Button and I'll be all set.

    Carl
    (waiting for the day Nokia cell phones offer the Pac-Man tune)

  • A coupla weeks after getting my PS2 (word to the wise: Even in California, it's fucking COLD outside Wal-Mart at 3am)

    If anybody still wants one, there's a big pile of PS2s obstructing an aisle at Fry's in Palo Alto, CA. They're between soft drinks and cordless phones. Still $299, though.

    (Sony has learned their lesson. The PS3 will be a more standard architecture. No more wierd vector units that have to be programmed with their own assembler.)

  • We may see a squeeze-out of Bluetooth. With SPIKE for remote controls coming up from below, and IEEE 802.11b coming down from above, there may not be much room for Bluetooth.

    Bluetooth reminds me of Echelon [echelon.com], the previous "home networking technology". Echelon was supposed to "control everything in your house". Nobody uses it for that. It's used a little for HVAC control in big buildings. It's become the standard for controlling destination signs and such in rail transit systems, because it has good noise immunity. But Echelon home products have gone nowhere, despite widespread industry support in the early phases. It, too, was supposed to cost about $1 per node.

  • you will be able to link up four xboxes and be able to play halo with 16 people on four TV's/monitors. I don't know about the gamecube, but ahhh yeah. On a side note, I am thinking that microsoft might be making an unpresedented push to make the xbox more like PC gaming in that the console is more personlaized and not as shared. Everyone has their own, and plays games with each other over a network with their own screens.

  • How is that possible?

    Game consoles generally poll the controller ports at the display refresh rate of 60 Hz (50 Hz in Europe due to nationalistic protectionism when AC was first being standardized), or once every 16.67 milliseconds. The article is claiming that SPIKE's latency is less than that.

    Yes, I speak from experience; I have developed software for the 8-bit NES console.

  • At about the same price as a magazine, SPIKE has some great potential. Even if it was only as good as Bluetooth, it's price alone would make it be worth it, but SPIKE seems to have a lot more to offer. The fact that it can do all the processing at 50 mhz for two more bucks, and it's high speed and reliable nature, makes this a no-brainer. As long as it can deliver at least as good as Bluetooth (which shouldn't be too hard), whoever adopts SPIKE will have an upper hand in the whole wireless revolution. Time to look for $10 in the couch!
  • The CSR chips are quoted at $8 and I have not seen any vendor quoting more than $30. You can get PCMCIA cards from Digianswer, Toshiba, IBM, Motorola, etc. for less than $200.

    Cambridge Silicon Radio [csr.com] is saying that they will ship their new chip at about $5 sometime this year.

    It sounds to me like SPIKE will be the real follow-on replacement for IR (IrDA) and that it will actually bring us the kind of connectivity which was promised there but never delivered (well, maybe it was delivered but it was rarely used).

    Bluetooth (tm) brings us a different kind of connectivity for a different purpose and it looks to me like they both have a place, as do Wi-Fi (802.11b) and CDMA/GPRS/UMTS. [ a place for everything and everything in its place ]

    I am certain that many technologies will be mis-used in the future and I am sure that some people will be very happy about that and others less happy. We have seen lots of examples over the years (beta-max/vhs; Linux/MacOS/Unix/Windows; [give me a command line and get out of my way])

    I have no doubt that we will see Wireless LAN's built using Bluetooth (tm) and that someone will add Service Discovery to some 802.11(b/a/g/e) implementation. It will not matter to consumers whether those are mis-applications of the technology.

    What will matter to them is:

    What do I find on the store shelf when I go looking for a solution?
    Does it work how I think it should work?
    Is it easy to use, easy to set up, etc?
    Did my favorite super-model or football player tell me to buy it?

    Bill Austin
    Bluetooth (tm) Mailing List [topica.com]
    Top Bluetooth (tm) Sites [topsitelists.com]

  • >I'm too lazy to do the research... can anybody else come up with power consumption numbers for Bluetooth vs. SPIKE?

    Transmit power:

    Spike: mW 0.75 mW

    Bluetooth: Class 1: 1 to 100 mW
    Class 2: 0.25 to 2.5 mW
    Class 3: 1 mW

    >Didn't some company come up with a chip that increases Bluetooth range?

    The higher powered devices are supposed to be capable of up to 100 meters.

    You can check to see if there are any Qualified Products [opengroup.org] in that classification.

    Bill Austin [att.net]
    Bluetooth (tm) News and Discussion [topica.com]
    Best Bluetooth (tm) Sites [topsitelists.com]

  • Unfortunately, the truth is that I'll accept whatever standard works on the equipment I'm using. I've been looking forward to BlueTooth for two reasons.

    #1 Low power
    #2 Will work on my Psion 5mx

    If any standard can beat BlueTooth to the punch, I'll be the first in line. The price is so low already that I'm not concerned with the difference in cost. On a handheld or old notebook such as I have, I'll be damn happy for 1Mbps or more. I think that's how anything gets standardized though.

    ---=-=-=-=-=-=---

  • What gives SPIKE a chance against Bluetooth is pure economics. Bluetooth chipsets right now cost around $100, while SPIKE costs $6.25. In a couple years, experts tell us Bluetooth will cost only $5.00, but by then SPIKE will be down to a buck. Whatever SPIKE costs, Bluetooth will always cost mo.

    Where does this $100 number come from ? This strikes me as a little strange, somehow I doubt this is true when intel will be selling quantities of 1000 i960 chipsets for $12, spike for $6.25, the list goes on.... this is number is bogus.

  • Absolutely. I don't know where he pulled $100 from, but most Bluetooth chips/modules are in the $15 to $35 range now, depending on how much of the stack you want to be able to run with it, whether it comes with some flash in the module, etc. I mean, you can get a retail adapter with everything (stack, no profiles) for not much more than $100.

    Out of curiosity, who quoted you $2?

  • Well this is not new stuff, I remember that I saw some wireless controllers for snes (super fmicom) but i dont know if thay came to usa or not.
  • A console LAN would be cooler... it would make for a better time for console owners, but hey, that's the spoils of having a computer! ;-)

    Sure the idea of a cordless controller would be nice (been around since the NES for Christ's Sake; is this new? I think not!) but according to the article it was comparing a wireless device meant for networking/connectivty to a frickin' game controller! So?

  • Listen, I've heard about the AMD motherboard problem before.

    But you can't help but wonder if AMD is just using that as an excuse. It's an easy scapegoat, after all.

    Perhaps AMD should be trying to distance themselves from inferior motherboards in some way.

  • The last common controller interface that I remember was the Atari 2600 joystick input. The Commodore 64 used the exact same port, and so did the Sega Genesis (although Genesis controllers had two more buttons). Even if multiple console companies use the same wireless protocol they will come up with some way to lock their controllers into their own units, the bloodsucking bastards.

  • Coooooool. (Score:4)

    by MWoody ( 222806 ) on Tuesday May 22, 2001 @12:25AM (#206784)
    A coupla weeks after getting my PS2 (word to the wise: Even in California, it's fucking COLD outside Wal-Mart at 3am) I ordered a Freedom Shock 2 wireless controller. How they could consider a product so entirely unusable fit for general market consumption is beyond me. Buttons would not work, or work at random, every 15 seconds or so. More annoying yet, the controller's "programmable" feature (really just allowed you to assign one button to the function of another) meant that buttons would entirely stop working every few minutes, and would be unfixable without removing and replacing the batteries. Sad, really, since the controller itself wasn't that bad.

    The explanation amongst my friends was that, since the controller worked via radio signals, Britney Spears and NSync were kicking my ass. So I burned the controller. And the box. And a nearby tree, just to be safe.

    Anyway, good to see a better technology on the horizon.
    ---
  • So what do I need the XBox for? I allready have a PC. And its got a lot more functionality than the XBox. And its allready got wireless toys. And good luck compiling DeCSS for XBox.
  • to mark a submission "troll" when a poster points out [slashdot.org] that Robert X Cringely has been appointed to the board of directors for the makers of SPIKE [eleveneng.com].

    Now, I'm not saying that its impossible that the man could offer sincere and honest journalism, but I also don't think that article is it. If it was, there would have be SOME MENTION that the guy IS DIRECTLY INVOLVED with the welfare of SPIKE. Not this "If it sounds like I'm a fan of SPIKE, the truth is that I am more properly a fan of little companies that do good work."

    Is that the complete truth "Mr. Cringely?"

  • Amen, Brother!

    Until recently, I had my N64 on top of my unused PSX and so any time my kids entered the zone of death and activated the trap, the N64 would fall forward about a foot, hanging from its power supply, undamaged and still on.

    This of course, pissed me off considerably and I think I have finally modified, through behavioural techniques, my children. They don't walk there any more.

    My 7-month old PS2 has only been yanked once, and that was when my little one swiped some candy and tried to escape from Mom.

    GTRacer
    - Toys 'R Us offering GT3 A-Spec AND Interact V3 wheel for $60.oo when pre-ordered!

  • Anything's got to be better than infra-red wireless controllers. At least with the good old wired controllers, if your girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other decides to stand in front of the screen and nag you about taking out garbage/washing up/paying them attention you can hit pause :)
  • It should really be observed that 'I, Cringely' is on the list of Slashboxes. I can't believe this was posted in the news, when so many other good articles of his didn't get submitted by viewers who were *just browsing*. I'm suprised the editor didn't catch this as well.

    Seeka
  • The fact that this protocol is realtime in nature might win hearts. However, a networking protocol gains more and more momentum not only by its technology, but also by the number of vendors developing products for the standard. The other alternative could be that the protocol should be opensource. Without either of these, I would doubt whether the company can push its product into the marketplace.
  • http://www.eleveneng.com/PressReleases/Cringley.pd f I think........

  • Re:price seems a bit whacky (Score:3)

    by rassie ( 452841 ) on Tuesday May 22, 2001 @12:03AM (#206792)
    You're absolutely right. The company I work for recently got a quote for $2 for a Bluetooth chip containing up to the HCI layer. Obviously this is in mass quantities.
    $100 must be for a completely integrated solution with every profile built-in and everything. That is not the normal way to go. - Either that, or he means a development kit of some kind.
    Either way, it would be nice to know where he got those numbers from.
  • It is likely that there is an excellent reason that this idea is simply stupid, but I am not a wireless/radio expert by any means: it occurs to me that broadcasting the same information simultaneously on two bands and comparing them on reception would make error-checking very easy and more reliable. It would require greater processing requirements, admittedly, but probably not anything that would really be inhibitive. Is this used already, and I just don't know, or is it not possible for some reason?

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