Taking Games Seriously In Korea 166
elph writes: "Seems like some kids in Korea have been taking an online role playing game, Lineage: Blood Pledge a little too seriously ... You can check out the CNN.com article here. Ban the RPGs! They cause kids to kill eachother! Evil! Satan!" The article paints Korean society with a fairly broad brush, but the numbers are still astonishing -- imagine if 5% of all Americans all played the same online game, for instance.
Re:eyewitness report (Score:1)
Of course, it could be argued that California is an escape from reality.
Re:Same old same old (Score:1)
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:1)
Re:So, um, (Score:2)
I was a Lineage Junkie (Score:5)
It is one of the most hostile and unenjoyable games I have ever played in my life. They have a server in Cali which went commercial about a month ago. First of all, 50% of the players on the US server are Koreans who live in the US and Canada. This would be ok except that there is incredible hostility between US and Korean players. This hostility leads to more racism than a Klu Klux Klan convention. I never imagined that kids could be so incredibly racist, and this goes on ALL DAY on global chat. Some of my friends have recieved death threats from other players.
For anyone considering paying for this game be warned: NCsoft does not reply to emails. I sent an email concerning my account payment to them 2 months ago with no reply. My friends have had similar results. This is incredibly frustrating since they charge us $15 a month, which is kind of high compared to the competition. During the beta test we basically got screwed by NCsoft. There were absolutely no gamemasters. NC refused to reply to email. Simple bugs like korean text that had not been converted to english were left unfixed for MONTHS. Then we discovered that all testing was being done in korea. The graphics in the game look ok but are very choppy even on very fast machines.
Gameplay: this game is very frustrating. If you can handle the constant hostility and racisim on a daily basis, you wil discover that the gameplay sucks. Fighting consists of pointing and clicking with the mouse and then just waiting around to see which player dies first. There is absolutely NO strategy of any kind. When 2 players duel the player with the highest HP or the strongest weapon (of which there is a very limited selection. Almost every knight uses the same sword: the katana) or the most money to spend on potions wins. There is a pet system where you can train dogs to help you but this has caused me more grief than anything else. Imagine spending an entire month to lvl a dog to level 30, to only have it DIE when your isp disconected you. If you get disconected before you can kennel your dogs OTHER PLAYERS WILL KILL THEM. I have friends who have lost months of work because of this. Also dogs have completely destroyed any teamplay in the game. Lineage is just a game of 1 man and his army of dogs. I hear that they will fix this in the next update due this month though by limiting the number of dogs a player can have.
The classes are limited and unenjoyable. Knight, Elf, Mage and Prince. The mage class has had a serious bug FOR OVER 2 MONTHS NOW and NCsoft will not even admit it exists. The bug is that when a mage levels up they are getting VERY low MP gain per level. Everybody in the game knows about it and NC does nothing. Also there are hardly any spells for the mage class, and the higher level spells cost an arm and 2 legs. Also there is NO way regen Magic Power. there are no MP potions. If your mage runs out of MP be prepared to sit in town for half an hour doing nothing while you wait for it to regen.
Sorry that this turned into a rant, but I truly hate this game now and I could not help myself. Be warned. This game is not worth your $15
Re:offline PK (Score:4)
Unfortunately, it will probably be Jon Katz.
Re:imagine if 5% of all Americans all played the s (Score:1)
Re:Counter-Strike is probably the closest US game. (Score:1)
Re:blah (Score:1)
First of all, I don't know why the /. write up says CNN, the article is on Time.
Second, I don't think the article is offensive, or portraying Asians (or Koreans specifically) in a bad light. Replace Korea with Poland and I wouldn't mind a bit. There are dumbasses among the people of every nation, just deal with it.
What is bad about the article is that it makes it seem like all Lineage players are like that. Indeed, by extension it makes it seem like all online players are like that. There will always be a subset of players that take their games very seriously, and will take online world grievances offline. Many people in the US play Diablo and EverCrack, but geographical realities of the US mean you can't just call up your clan members and go to the cyber cafe across the street and pummel someone for killing your character.
We've all seen stories like this before about other games and people in other countries, in fact a quick search on Time's own site will reveal this article [time.com]. Take with a big grain of salt and an agenda.
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We are Slashdot Junkies (Score:2)
It is one of the most hostile and unenjoyable games I have ever played in my life
This hostility leads to more racism than a Klu Klux Klan convention
NCsoft does not reply to emails.
The classes are limited and unenjoyable.
Fortunately you are now in Slashdot, which is so different.
__
Re:Behold the blind eye of US journalism (Score:2)
Other languages also reflect social structure, but Confucius formalized these tendencies, and the language has more terms describing social and family relationships. For instance, "aunt" is broken into "aunt on the father's side" (como) and "aunt on the mother's side" (yimo). It gets complicated, but most cultures have some traces of this practice.
There's also a polite informal tense which gets around much of the status-checking.
Korean Police and the Internet (Score:2)
The rest of the world has decried net censorship, but the Korean government has embraced it wholeheartedly. Police have acted on the theory that free speech and communication are causes of crime. Websites advocating suicide have been shut down, their user logs have been confiscated, and users have been investigated by the police, based on claims, made by the same police, that people have committed suicide after visiting the sites. More broadly, the government recently issued a secret list hundreds of thousands of "forbidden" web sites, which are to be blocked by ISPs.
While in the West we have become accustomed to tabloid journalists and cheap political hacks attacking the Internet, we should realize that Korea already has an institutionalized FUD network, and any claims should be taken with a dose of salt.
Re:Korean Police and the Internet (Score:2)
Re:Is it 5 percent of A or of B? (Score:1)
Geography (Score:2)
They've got at least tens of thousands of players last time I heard.. I'm sure that's 5% of something..
Anyway, I suspect geography has more to do with it then culture.. I bet if the USA was populated the way south korea is, the UO player density would get high enough to lead to similar effects..
Thank god when I kill and tease people, odds are they're a good long car ride away from being able to punch me in the face over it..
Re:Same old same old (Score:1)
Of course, fistfights with fellow UB alumns aren't as easy as those carefree days when everyone was in Baldy or Bell...
Re:Gangsters Online (Score:1)
Half-elf? Naah. Tony Soprano wouldn't play a pansy half-elf. Half-ORC, maybe. Or maybe even a dwarf.
I think if Tony Soprano were a demi-human, he'd be a troll -- from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, not the regenerating killed-only-with-acid-or-fire AD&D trolls.
Which raises yet another frightening image. Tony Soprano as a
Yup, them crazy Lineage players... (Score:2)
see the discussion already in progress at Lum the Mad's [lumthemad.net] website.
And to add to the on-topic discussion: it's interesting to see what can happen when the majority of 'net users don't actually own their machines but rent them by the hour at the cafes. Get your character ganked 'cross-country, can't do a thing. Sitting next to the guy, or a few blocks away? Maybe you'll rough him up.
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Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:2)
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Re:Same old same old (Score:1)
Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:2)
Personally, I'd find this pretty damned offensive if I were of Asian decent of any sort. Sorry, folks, this is embarrassing.
Why should someone of Asian descent be offended by a characterization of young males in Korea? After all, the article didn't paint all Asians with the same brush. Furthermore, while you or I, being proud of our diversity and rightously politically correct, might resent stereotypes of any type, Korea is proud of its homogeneity.
One might even say that games like this provide a relatively safe outlet for the same hormone-induced impulses which young males around the world experience, allowing for both an escape from and the preservation of the status quo. I can recall many a time in highschool when a good Robotron session kept me from bloodying my fists for no particuarly good reason.
Spend some time in a "PC Bang" in Korea and the article will seem perfectly reasonable.
Re:Things like this pervade many asian societies (Score:1)
i'd always thought this was true buy i met so many "non-traditional" players in asheron's call that i changed my mind. i played with carpenters from canada and female lawyers in massachusetts. i was one of the youngest players in my group at 30. reading about the baseball players and EQ proves the point. hell, even my mother plays nintendo (don't you talk sh*t about my mother!
computer gaming, even online gaming, is no longer just for geeky males. (like me)
Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:1)
Every interaction I have ever had with Korean society (North and South) has scared the hell out of me. Cultural flaw is an understatement.
Maybe this is flamebait, but it's not because I don't mean it.
Of course I do not believe that Koreans are bad people. Korean culture is worse than the sum of it's parts.
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Re:Same old same old (Score:1)
I know we have baseball players knocking homeruns in the name of their EverQuest characters, but I don't think we have the Mob trying to get Sony to give them some virtural weapons.
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Re:They already do (Score:2)
Your sig contains a syntax error.
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Re:They already do (Score:2)
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Re:Posting from ignorance. (Score:2)
When I was still at school, a friend of mine doing a paper on the growth of Christianity among Koreans in the US interviewed me as an (extremely minor) authority on Confucianism for my perspective on the compatibility of these two traditions. I thought I was making a fairly innocuous comment when I said that there were some elements of Christian morality and Confucian ethics as they existed in Korean society that seem, on the surface, to be incompatible.
Imagine my surprise after the paper was presented when I was physically threatened (!) for having the audacity to "judge" Korea and Koreans, and this from individuals who routinely attend clubs and bars where non-Koreans are refused entry.
I understand that centuries of being squeezed between major powers can give a nation something of a chip on its shoulder, but I find the whole "No one but Koreans may say anything about Korea" thing silly, an example of ethnocentrism taken to the extreme. People will look at what you do and draw conclusions; everyone is subject to the same scrutiny in this way. Get over it.
Re:Same old same old (Score:2)
As another poster mentioned, Super Smash Brothers is a good fight starter. When one person feels like they're being picked on by two or three people, wrestling often ensues.
-B
Same old same old (Score:5)
Re:Good. (Score:1)
Posting from ignorance. (Score:1)
Then DON'T pretend to be able to comment on the society.
Amazing how many instant (insert country here) experts pop up whenever one of these stories happens.
Re:Posting from ignorance. (Score:1)
I am only advocating the position that you shouldn't post critiques or "expert opinion" about another culture unless you have direct, long-term experience of that culture. This could be either as a native or a foreign long-term resident. At some point, unless you do isolate yourself in ethnic ghetto, you will "get" the culture and be able to provide informed insights and opinions to those outside that culture.
A Korean that has lived in the States for some time, an especially one that has interacted actively with American society will be able to offer an informed explanation of America back in Korea. What we are seeing is the equivalent of a Korean in Korea saying "I've never been to the States but I heard that everyone in America owns a gun." It's possible to for this opinion based upon news reports, movies and websites, but in the end it's just wrong.
Unfortunately what I am talking about is going on rampantly in the "Employers Who Hold Back Employees" thread. Count the number of posts saying "I've never been to Japan but I heard that..." which then proceed to offer outdated, misunderstood or just plain WRONG information.
I spent the first 8 years of my life in England but won't offer any opinion on the current state of the U.K as I haven't been back for over 10 years. I lived in Japan from 1986 to 1996 and can offer some general viewpoints, but the country changed so much just in the 10 years I was there that I would be cautious about offering professional advice on how things are this year.
They already do (Score:5)
They already do. It's called AOL.
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Re:fp (Score:1)
Damn... (Score:3)
I found the comment about "off line PK's" humorously ironic though.
And the bit about sexual favors for in game items... Someone doesn't have their priorities straight, I don't think.
-Restil
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:5)
I was, more or less, addicted to Ultima Online for about the first 6 months after its release. I played it a MINIMUM of 8 hours a day on weekdays, frequently up til 2 in the morning, having to be at work by 8, this was a bit of a challenge. I would also try to sneak in some play time at work if I wasn't being watched. And once I got home, UO is all I did until I went to sleep.
On weekends, it was wake up, UO until I couldn't stay up anymore, then sleep. Thats it. that was my life. Nothing else.
I would wake up thinking of nothing else, I would spend any waking moment that I wasn't on the machine thinking about it. I wrote extensive documents logging activities, trying to come up with new strategies against my foes in the game, researching the online sites about the game, etc.
Every time they put in a patch, I was disgruntled. BIG TIME. Because every patch meant I had to completely change the way I played the game. Figure that if every 3 weeks you had to move, completely change your diet, change to a new job, and take a pay cut at the same time. After a while, this would get extremely annoying. Thats to some extent what it felt like playing the game after a while.
Server crashes caused a great deal of frustration. That just meant I lost time. Imagine waking up one day, working hard for 14 hours straight, then right before you go to sleep at the end of the night, Everything gets wiped out so you are back where you started at the beginning of the day, the entire day wasted. In UO, this was typical.
Add in to that, I had a bad internet connection that would drop frequently, and always at the most inopportune times, so I died many more times than I should have. Travesty of the greatest, I can assure you.
However, while this game might have been an addiction, it was by no means a dependancy. One day in Feb '98, I was at work thinking about UO, like I usually did, and read a newsgroup post about some hot topic, and I wrote a lenghty reply. I'm not sure exactly what the topic was about, but I got off on a few rants and a tangent and by the time I was done writing it, I had decided to quit playing. I went online that night, gave away all my online stuff, shut it down and never played it again.
And the weird thing is, I never WANTED to play it again. I had no desire whatsoever to play it. I quit thinking about it, I actually accomplished other things, slowly gained a grip on a life again. Never looked back.
And the way I see it, it was like an annoying hobby, one you somehow feel you must participate in, but you never really want to. I can't imagine how I began to feel that way about the game, but by the time it was all over, I never wanted to do it again. Since that time I have hardly played any online games, in fact, I've hardly played any games at all. There was a brief stint with starcraft after I quit UO, but at least with that game, after playing it for 2 hours, I was bored with it and quit for a while. Games could actually be completed (won or lost) and that closure allowed me to go on and do other things, whereas with UO, it never ends. And until it ends, you don't want to stop playing.
I can't say from a marketing standpoint that this wasn't effective. People who had never played an Ultima game played UO. People who had never played ANY computer games were playing it. Scary.
-Restil
Is it pure role playing anymore? (Score:2)
I think your last sentence is pretty much on the mark. People aren't going to stop occaisionally punching each others' lights out, so I guess our options really are: (a) live in a police state, or (b) tolerate violent outbursts now and then. (can you tell I'm an American?)
I think the more interesting question the article raises is not whether online RPGs lead to crime and hooliganism, but whether they are bluring the distinction between the real and virtual world. I used to be an avid RPG player, but I haven't done played for many years. These massive on-line games have piqued my curiosity, because they are at once similar to, but very different from what we used to do.
In the old days, you played in the same room with your friends. It was a cooperative venture, because everyone was there to enhance the game of everyone else -- otherwise you don't get invited back. "Evil" characters were operated by essentially friendly players who were out to enhance the game. The universe of players is very limited, and player game and real behavior is very tightly, if implicitly, controlled.
Online RPGS are broader, more anonymous environments where people (other than clan members) only experience you through your character and anyone can join. Is it really role playing anymore, or perhaps, to some degree, you are what you play? I wonder if it actually posisble to act evilly in an online RPG, as opposed to just playing an evil character? Evil behavior would be playing in a way designed to spoil the experience of other players -- to cause suffering, not of the character but of the player behind him. I think it is even a more interesting question if we leave the question of real world fraud and hooliganism out.
Also, as these games become a larger phenomenon, I definitely see the lines between role playing behavior and "real life" behavior blurring. You can already see that with the cited examples of economic integration of the RPG world with the real world (including various forms of crime). The idea of people gathering in the virtual world to petition the government (the game operator) for justice is a striking thing.
add uncomfortable electric shocks... (Score:1)
Hmm, I wonder.
Re:They already do (Score:1)
Re:Wrong sig (was Re:They already do) (Score:1)
BTW, it works as typed on a RH6.2 machine.
Re:They already do (Score:2)
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Re:Counter-Strike is probably the closest US game. (Score:1)
As someone who has played the game. (Score:4)
I've been playing lineage for about 6 months now. I can tell you Lineage inspires this kind of thing. I have been insanely angry at other players in the game enough at times, I probably would have beat the sh_t out of them if they had been across the room too.
I guess you have to play lineage to understand, I will try to explain. The game is damn addictive for some reason or another. I haven't spent this much time playing a game since warcraft II (multiplayer of course). The graphics suck and the sound is really repetitive, yet for a few months I found myself playing 6 to 8 hours a day. By the time your player hits L35 or so you have spent a lot of time wandering around and killing shit. The game gets gradually harder to level and it takes more and more money (a hard resource to come by in decent quantities) to buy armor and weapons that are good enough to do damage to the kind of monsters you are hunting. All that is great until some smart ass shows up and decides that you are a prime target for them to bully around. Sometimes its completely unprovoked and you just discover you have been jumped, sometimes a battle of words elevates to blows, or you get pulled into someone else's conflict because your in the same pledge. Once it comes to blows a P-P conflict goes one of two ways. Either you are more powerful and you kick their ass or they kick your ass. The result either way can be REALLY frustrating. If you win and end up killing them there is a good chance you will end up loosing a lot of lawfulness points and hence 'going chao'. This isn't bad in itself except now if your killed you drop stuff as well as loose exp. This means that you loose armor and weapons that might have taken you a month to get while you are trying to become lawful again. It doesn't matter how 'good' you have been. Killing someone is instant chao. Now the monsters are all aggressive towards you and you have other players who take it upon themselves to hunt in packs and kill chao players. Basically your life sucks until you manage to gain enough lawful points to stop attracting monsters, other players, and dropping your hard earned equipment. Being killed is often times just a better situation. That though has its own tribulations. As mentioned above if your not lawful enough you drop items when you die. Its like 'bamb' the last weeks worth of playing down the drain in the 5 seconds it takes to die. Not only that but you loose 10% to 15% of your current level (down leveling if necessary to loose that much). When your level 20 this isn't a real issue because you can make 15% in a half hour of playing. When your level 45 it can take 20 hours of play to make that much exp. So someone kills you and you drop your +6 Elven Plate Mail. Then your in the hole 400,000 adena (probably about 60 hours of play to make that much money if your L30) and another 20 hours of play to get the 15% exp back. Then the rage starts. WFT!, was that person thinking coming up and messing with me when I was just out here minding my own, hunting in Dragon valley. Then the rage really kicks in, I just spent the last 20 hours of my life to have this ass come along and mess it all up! There are very few options because the type of player that just killed you is now level 50 has a -50 AC , a +7 sword and 6 L30 dogs. Your only hope to exact revenge is to knuckle down, gain a few levels and then teach that SOB a lesson. On the other hand you could call upon your pledge to start a war with this other persons pledge. Now you have involved 20 of your friends in the fight along with 30 of the other guys friends. Which results in 30 new people in the game who are out to kick your ass when they see you out hunting and trying to gain a level. Ahhhhh! frustration!
NCsoft started a new server where you can't PK other players. Except that now there is absolutely no deterrent to keep people from hanging out on already over crowded orc beach and stealing your totems or the 50 other problems in the damn game. The problem is in the beginning the rewards are easy to come by. The game is fun and you quicly become addicted. Then its like bad drugs. It takes more and more effort to find the fun part (killing new monsters, getting a new level or some new spells, whatever) and the rewards are slowly overcome out by the anoyances of the game. This ends up leading to fustration when you want a new spell but you have to kill another 10,000 orcs to get enought money to buy it or you have to kill some outragious number of Ghast, Basi or whatever in the hopes that you will get lucky and have the item dropped for you. After four weeks killing ghast and you still don't have summon monster the frustration builds and builds and builds. Eventually you turn into a bully to burn off some steam, thereby frustrating some other lower level player who just had a few hours of work destoryed for your cheap thrill, or you quit the game. The end result is unhealthy for the game. The good people quit, the bad people stay around and bully the other players around.
eyewitness report (Score:5)
I spent a couple afternoons in one of those playing Starcraft with some Korean friends. I beat them down, but they took it good naturedly. The youth there seem to need more of an outlet, an escape from reality, than the people I know here in California.
Reality is scarier than fiction. (Score:1)
Reality is scarier than fiction.
Articles: Taking Slashdot Seriously in America (Score:1)
Today a local, self-branded "Geek News site" proved itself to be nothing but a hybrid anarchist/communist site with the opinion that no geek, no matter how bad the crime, should be punished.
This conclusion was drawn after numerous articles in favor of, even in some cases actively encouraging, breaking the law because it is "unfair", instead of putting their full force behind due process, and attempting to get the law changed.
One slashdot user, using the free-for-all "Anonymous Coward", which was chosen due to possible retaliation from the slashdot hivemind, was quoted as follows: "Imagine if every user of slashdot who used napster to, erm, "borrow music" were to write, call, fax, or e-mail their congressman and write a good, concise, to the point memo about why they should be allowed to download music without paying for it.. *GASP!* they might have to THINK!"
Rob Malda of Slashdot could not be reached for comment. However, -1 of 0, Primary adjunct of Unimatrix 1337 was quick to mod this article down to (-$bignumber, Anti-Slashdot)
(Its only flamebait if you steal, Its only trolling if you arent thinking.)
Re:Articles: Taking Slashdot Seriously in America (Score:2)
Slashdot stories are becoming more of the same. The range of topics seem to usually be under one of the following headings -
"Linux zealot gets arrested"
"Linux hater gets his due"
"Capitalism BAD - Napster.. GOOOOOOOOOOD!"
"John Katz's Overanalytical movie review corner"
"All OS's but Linux Suck"
"Linus Torivalds drinks a beer/takes a piss/gets some"
"[insert microsoft product] Beta Software has bugs"
"The price of tea in china, and what it has to do with the columbine incident"
"Stealing Music & Movies - Why we should be allowed to do it" or, rather "Capitalism - We just don't get it".
In addition, It seems that the moderation system here seems to work like so:
Pro linux/oss post, >4K = +5
Same, >2K = +3
Any post over 5K that uses big words = +5, insightful
Any post that has a writer who is articulate, however makes no sense - +4
any anti-linux post: -1
One more thing:
"Linux kicks ass!" +5, Insightful
"Windows is actually a decent operating system, with strengths and weaknesses all is own" -1, {Flamebait, Troll, Redudant}
Re:Counter-Strike is probably the closest US game. (Score:1)
And yes, I am one of those addicted.
It's all about the game (Score:3)
"A number of the 16-year-old's gang sport the close-cropped haircuts"
<sarcasm>
Blame the game makers, movie makers, music makers, blame em all. However don't you dare say a fscking thing about the good parents who teach kids right from wrong.
Don't talk about the types of families these kids are coming from because that's just downright insulting of any media outlet. You wouldn't want to read a farily written informative article now would you? Shame on you
Look when game makers, movie makers, etc., do their thing, they aren't in their right minds. We need more Disney to teach kids morals, not some more violent material from these scumbag corporations flooding the market and forcing our kids to be killers, thugs, etc.
For crying out loud we're parents, and we don't need the task of teaching kids right from wrong, morals and ethics. Thats the job of others god damnit.
</sarcasm>
Re:Behold the blind eye of US journalism (Score:1)
Uh, no. The languages has a special sentential case reserved for speaking to elders/persons of higher status. There is also a case for speaking to someone of Lower status. The content of the sentence is identical each form, however, it is impossible to have a conversation in Korean without carefully delineating each speakers social status relative to the others. This is a considerable stretch from sir/ma'am and is indicative of the extremely high value Koreans put not only on social structure, but on one's awareness of that structure.
-- Rich
Wrong sig (was Re:They already do) (Score:1)
chown can be used only by root.
#chown -R us:us yourbase is correct
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:1)
It does get addictive, just like D&D, just like coffee, just like obsesivly clicking the gnome-fish looking for bits of wisdom.
And just a little bit like drugs.
I've no objection to games at all; I even play them sometimes. But to spend you're entire summer vacation playing Evercrack, as a certain friend of mine is doing, this is when it becomes a problem, n'est pas?
Re:As someone who has played the game. (Score:1)
Either that game logic has to be changed, so that, for example there's a random chance of not going chao, which decreases the more people you kill, or some kind of law system/moderation:
You could do time as a moderator (like in slashdot for example), where you are logged with player kills and can come in and assign "chao probability" points to people depending on what you've seen happening.
This kind of stuff wouldn't kill the anger aspects that are probably the attractive part to some people: it would still be socially imperfect, but I'm amazed that no-one amongst the game's producers has already implemented something like that. If they don't it's something that needs to be done in a "soft" way: ie, through players getting together and making lists of people who are not as chao as they seem.
I think there are ethical implications when you make something. Either you assume responsibility, or you empower others to do the same. Otherwise you (creators AND players in this case) are not being creative but destructive.
I would boycott this company for not wanting to confront this problem. But then again, this article is all I've read, so they may well already be confronting it.
Ale
Re:Same old same old (Score:5)
Just the types of games have changed.
I can not count the number of fights I've seen over SPORTS.
I'm sure there is no evidence to support this claim, but I'd be willing to bet that Football causes more violence in today's society in a single year than Video Games have ever caused in 20.
The fact is -- Sports IS Violence and people love it. They love it so much, in fact, that a good chunk of the VIDEO GAME MARKET is based on the sports market.
They better not ban Video Games without first taking out the real culprit.
The Titans made Nashville traffic even worse. Video games never got me in a traffic jam.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:1)
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:1)
Good book, I believe you can find an online copy at DRCNet.
prolixity
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:2)
Heroin is usually administered with a needle.
Video games aren't
Heroin is an autonomic system depressant.
Video games aren't
Heroin releases massive amounts of dopamine.
Video games don't
An excessive usage pattern of heroin administration will lead to withdrawl symptoms when the supply is severed.
Video games *aren't* physically addictive
Video games *are* safe to use without a physician's presence
Video games *do not* present a high potential for abuse.
The only criteria I can see for scheduling video games is that they have no currently accepted medical applications.
And by the way, if you read ahead of the current government propaganda, you can find plenty on non-scheduled alternatives.
prolixity
Re:So, um, (Score:1)
Re:So, um, (Score:1)
Like the way people speak English on Slashdot?
reminds me of a book (Score:2)
blah (Score:2)
Re:blah (Score:2)
As everyone here knows... (Score:4)
I didn't get the impression that time.com was against the online game, but still.
Codeine pills? You can buy 'em in Canada... (Score:1)
Efficacy and addiction are inevitably debatable topics. At any rate, you name a drug, it was legal in the US at one time or another. Cocaine in Coca-Cola, lithium in 7-Up, marijuana, GHB (it's in all of us), LSD-25 (the CIA/FBI loves the stuff!), you name it.
Re:Damn! hope they won't close the server ;) (Score:1)
A 21 year old was being arrogant about a kill he made in Lineage, and therefore the Korean mob tracked him down and beat the crap out of him! These are ADULTS!!
I also find in all societies age has nothing to do with maturity. Also this phenomenon in korea has nothing to do with maturity. Its cultural.
See this is what I was talking about before. In the states games and behavior like this are dismissed as juvenile or geeky. In Korea, its far more serious, and Lineage probably isn't the only thing this is evident in.
Wow good reply!! (Score:1)
Its all about PASTTIMES. How you spend your free time, your hobbies, pursuits, and how seriously you are involved in them. In Korea its online gaming. In Europe, its Soccer (Sorry I'm american
Online gaming is a SPORT in Korea. Now take it into that context and try to expand it. You'll understand whats going on. It probably hasn't caught on in places like Japan because Japan's obsession is baseball. In the US its usually football, basketball (GO SIXERS!!!!!!!!!!), hockey, or baseball (in that order, with hockey and basketball probably getting about the same attention nationally).
Now these are broad strokes, as the posting points out, but in any culture we have those of us who are just obsessed with our sports. Korea didn't have the same kind of national sports or national pasttime that unites people for no reason other than the hope that their home team wins.
Now they have something... online gaming.
Things like this pervade many asian societies (Score:5)
Things like games, animation, comics, games, etc in the United States are considered only for a "minority" of people. Even though there are millions and millions of copies of Diablo 2 sold (a game I frequent) I know no one in real life who plays Diablo 2 online other than myself. I know a few who played it on their personal machines, and then put it away and went on with life. I myself feel "different" with this respect.
In general, going online in any form, especially gaming, is usually considered for Geeks in the US, at least from the vibes I get. If there are people playing this game with me, they aren't talking except on web boards and email.
However, this isn't the case in Asia. The common example is Animation and Japan. For some reason, they see Animation as a very important part of their culture. People hold parades to look like their favorite anime characters in Japan! Anime is for all ages, as you can see by the wide selection of everything from the super sappy to the hard core violent and sexual scenes one can only see in "adult" anime.
I don't think I can really explain it, but its something to do with games, gadgets, technology, etc. Its just that stuff that is considered "geeky kiddie stuff" in the states, is revered in Asian cultures for all Ages.
It just so happens that in this case, its not very healthy. (as opposed to Anime Tentacle Porn which is very healthy!
I wonder if something like Slashdot would be considered mainstream in Korea?
imagine if 5% of all Americans all played the same (Score:1)
Re: Addictive Games (Score:1)
Re:Things like this pervade many asian societies (Score:2)
Well, you got one thing right...
However, this isn't the case in Asia. The common example is Animation and Japan. For some reason, they see Animation as a very important part of their culture. People hold parades to look like their favorite anime characters in Japan! Anime is for all ages, as you can see by the wide selection of everything from the super sappy to the hard core violent and sexual scenes one can only see in "adult" anime.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but in Japan, anime otaku are every bit as marginal and despised a phenomenon as in the US. Kiddie comics are read mostly by young kids (surprise surprise), adult comics are read by the same demographic that reads Playboy in the US. Yes, there is a parade of people who dress up as anime characters (and anything else they want to) every Sunday in Tokyo -- half the people there are giggling tourists and amateur photographers like myself who like watching the freakshow [u-tokyo.ac.jp].
Try another generalization instead: online gaming is fun. I have no doubt that in a few years, well over 5% of the entire industrialized world will be playing them in one form or another.
Cheers,
-j. (in Tokyo)
Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:1)
- Steeltoe
Re:blah (Score:1)
- Steeltoe
Re:Good. (Score:1)
- Steeltoe
Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:2)
I think this is a really BS argument because that's equivalent to saying that every article out there should be about the most significant piece of news out there in the world, which means that we'd get a newspaper about a single topic every morning. We'd never hear about the girl down the street that won a science fair because it's less significant. The truth is that reporters DO write articles about the problems with the US everyday. How many articles have you read in the last 10 years about various problems in the US? How many about game addicted Koreans? You do the math.
You and I both know there are a lot more to Koreans than being glued to 19" monitors, but this is not the way to react.
Not quite. (Score:1)
I'd love to see the bullshit you come up with to support that statement. The difference isn't cultural, and contrary to what you say, the tacit laws of the Korean culture, as do those of many other cultures, forbid such behavior. The "real difference," as you put it, is in the age groups that play online games.
As a Korean, I can tell you that one of the first things that kids learn how to do in Korea is to play computer games. Their means of recreation have become so limited that playing computer games in the shelter of their rooms is one of the few things they can do without fearing punishment from various authorities. In addition, the "8 to 5" workday is still only a dream in Korea. Employers expect employees to stay as long as it takes to finish the work, and often, there are social obligations with co-workers even after the workday is over (it's very common for the employees to gather as a group and drink their way from bar to bar, daily after work, until well past midnight). In other words, adults are simply too busy to be playing online games.
As such, most Korean online gamers fall into the narrow 12-18 age group, in contrast to American online gamers who vary in age from low teens to late thirties. I agree that the "we're socially repressed" defense doesn't hold; it's plain immaturity. Don't stereotype the whole lot of us as ill-mannered jerks based on your online experiences with immature teenagers. I could just as easily spend time at a trailer park and claim that American culture supports inbreeding and the procreation of bastard children.
Richard Garriot / Destination Games (Score:3)
Check out the review [avault.com] of Lineage : The Blood Pledge at The Adrenaline Vault.
From that article about the Garriot brothers:
The brothers also announced a partnership with NCsoft, the South Korean company that runs the world's largest subscriber-based online game, Lineage: The Blood Pledge.
The company has 2 million subscribers in South Korea alone; under the partnership, Lineage will be repackaged and relaunched in the United States this fall. Meanwhile, Lineage creator Jake Song will move to Austin to help develop games, which NCsoft will help launch in Asia.
It's all about the media (Score:2)
This is just a bunch of kids who got too caught up in a game of play-pretend (that is all rpg's are after all; elaborate versions of the games every grade school child plays).
The media LOVES this shit. They eat it up and spit it out at their audience. The media blew Columbine out of the water and should be held to blame for at least thre quarters of the copycat school shootings that followed, and now this.
offline PK (Score:4)
Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:3)
The article characterizes all South Koreans as game-obsessed nutjobs, drawn into this fantasy as the product of some cultural flaw.
Actually, the article characterizes the South Koreans who are game-obsessed nutjobs as game obsessed nutjobs. It stays pretty solidly on-topic, and has very little to say about the 95% of South Koreans who are not game-obsessed nutjobs.
"Hey, somebody is saying that our national culture has some flaws! Oh no! How offensive! Everybody knows that only Americans have bad culture!"
Re:Behold the blind eye of US journalism (Score:2)
about korea, lineage, gaming (Score:2)
there are more than 10 million people living in seoul. if 5% of them play lineage that is at least 500,000 players, in a single urban area. it would be very easy to reach out and touch ("off line pk") somebody in such a densely populated area (in terms of lineage players). it only takes a few hours by train or car to get to the most southern part of korea (pusan, which happens to be the second largest city).
although my knowledge of korean society is just that of an observer, i know that each korean has a set of "seniors" and "juniors". relationships between juniors and seniors begin in school, clubs, churches, etc, in almost any type of activity. a person can call on his "juniors" to help him in a time of need. and a person can be called on by his "senior" to be helped, or can call on his "senior" to ask for his assistance. these relationships can be used for initimidation of others or defense from others outside the group. DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE ONLY REASON FOR THESE RELATIONSHIPS. they are more often used for financial assistance, help moving to a different apartment / house, drinking, doing the activity in which the relationship was formed, etc. i hypothesize that relatioinships formed in on online game in korea would work in the same manner. the stronger protect the weak within clans. the weak members in the clan band together to protect one another. the level of loyalty in these types of junior / senior relationships can get somewhat high.
korea is a very stressful place. workers work 5 and half days a week with tons of overtime. you could get "IMF'ed" (laid off) at any moment. school children (middle and high school) are the same. to get into a good college, you have to be in a good class (each grade consists of severl classes depending on your test scores). students are ranked from middle school, upto their final year in high school. this final year entails waking at 6am in the morning and studying from about 7am to past midnight. the students study for the college entrance exam. there is a high suicide rate amongst high school students in korea. this stressful society paves the way for people trying to escape, trying to be more than what they are, trying to live a life outside of their means in reality.
somebody else made a point that online gaming in korea is very popular. i would like to reinforce his statement. i went to korea very recently and was surprised when i found myself watching a game of starcraft on tv that was being commentated. i saw a show where people were flocking to get the autograph of a person who had just won a starcraft / other online game comptetition. (this was about two months ago when i visited korea.) i've read articles (submitted to slashdot and got rejected) where american and international net gaming "professionals" were moving to korea because there was more opponents to practice and more competitions for money (last year).
okay, i'll stop now. i just wanted to add a disclaimer that i'm an american born korean that lived in korea for one year. if there are any pure koreans that would like to comment on anything that i've said here, go ahead. i know i don't have a full understanding on how korean society functions. i'm just trying to fill in some background that the article may have left out.
andrew
Re: Addictive Games (Score:4)
Games are extremely addictive, as my poor wife can attest.
This got me thinking, considering how pervasive games are, and how the "mainstream" is trying so hard to demonize video games, how long is it before we hear this exchange?
Re:Uh oh... (Score:3)
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Hrmm... (Score:2)
This reminds me very much of William Gibson's 'All Tomorrow's Parties', in which one of the main characters lives his life inside a cardboard box in a Tokyo train station. How long until wireless is so pervasive and cheap that even the homeless are playing massively-multiplayer rpg's?
It makes my skin crawl.
Counter-Strike is probably the closest US game. (Score:5)
These numbers are from Gamespy's Stats page [gamespy.com] as of a few minutes ago...
Not exactly 5%, as with 270million folks there'd have to be 1,3500,000 people playing, but then again, are we talking 5% playing, or playing at the SAME TIME?
Re:Counter-Strike is probably the closest US game. (Score:2)
EverQuest, a game with a monthly fee, has over 80,000 players simultaneously on at peak times. Their overall subscriber numbers are probably getting close to 400,000 by now. That's almost as many people as in some small states.
Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:5)
Personally, I'd find this pretty damned offensive if I were of Asian decent of any sort. Sorry, folks, this is embarassing.
Still, I would LOVE to see this game.
Re:games addictive? no... (Score:2)
Because most of Western society loves machines, but fears chemistry and biology?
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WWW.TETSUJIN.ORG [tetsujin.org]
Sounds like Pokemon (Score:2)
Another crack source (Score:3)
Re:Same old same old (Score:2)
http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=143 65
It's not just people getting mad at officials or other fans/players. Some parent had a kid poison his teammates because they had made fun of him.
Re:Things like this pervade many asian societies (Score:3)
I can see it now:
Millions of young Koreans use their wireless handhelds and Internet-ready cellphones to read and contribute to the online news site Slashdot. The site has become such a pervasive part of their culture that students have actually begun to use some of the site's jargon in every day life. For example, when a students provides a particularly insightful comment in class, his or her peers can usually be heard to shout, "MOD THIS UP!!!" Even teachers have begun to refer to the site, with one actually writing "You spell worse than CmdrTaco." on the top of an English essay.
Unfortunately, there's also a darker side to this rampant fandom. Students have been known to get violent when moderated down. When Chiang Tao Mzu's attempt at humor wound up moderated down to (-1, Troll), he used his connections to discover which of his classmates moderated him down. Then he and some friends proceeded to kill the responsible parties using home-made shivs.
Wow good article (Score:5)
anways watch what happens, Korea will be further along in gameing the rest of us. Everytime something goes wrong and its even partly attached to gaming and its in the US its big news, everyone gets involved, politicans start talking about it, and so on. Society will be much slower to change than technolgy.
Oh, can the whining (Score:2)
The article wasn't blaming the game makers for the violence that was taking place. If it was blaming anyone, it would be the unique Korean culture that leads to this sort of blurring between online and offline gang behavior.
Besides, who said the parents are the only ones responsible for teaching their kids right and wrong? Whatever happened to the individual's own responsibility to learn it?
Damn right (Score:2)
(sigh)
It's not just some silly "well they're so repressed in their daily life!". I'M repressed in my daily life, and so are many others like me, and we don't make massive NUISANCES out of ourselves online. The thing is, they have a CULTURE in which it's seen as acceptable to be a total prick online. That's the only real difference.
-Kasreyn
Is it 5 percent of A or of B? (Score:2)
These are all different numbers
Re:Broad? This is ridiculously wide... (Score:2)
Then perhaps you're oversensitive. Why would, say, an Iranian care how Koreans were characterized in a little story about video games?
5% of all Americans (Score:2)
I don't know the actual percentage, but we already do.
It's called "find the defunct ISP and make them stop charging my credit card for the monthly fee".
--Blair
Screenshots! (Score:3)
Uh oh... (Score:5)
What scares me is that the experience points they gain will make them super-powerful. If there's anything worse than street gangs, it's street gangs full of 15th level fighters!
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