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Games Entertainment

Developing for the Playstation 2? 213

Posted by Cliff from the from-the-PC-to-the-console dept.
Kentai asks: "Im thinking of building my final year CS project around developing a piece of software for the Playstation 2 and I am wondering what various pitfalls I should expect. Bringing our own software to the living room on nice hardware seems like a whole new computer medium that would be fun to exploit. Problems I am expecting so far include: issues like obtaining a compiler (pretty important), the whole Playstation 2 CDR issue and legal issues. What compilers can one use to develop PS2 software, and how much does each solution cost? Also, has anyone had any luck or placed any hope on a Java VM for this platform?"
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Developing for the Playstation 2? More

Developing for the Playstation 2?

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  • i never got to make console games in my computer science education :( lucky bastard
  • At JavaONE this year they had a big demo where they spoke of a JavaVM being part of the PS2 and I wanna say they said something about around Christmas time. The guy showed some interesting demos of going into a chat room and sending out requests to play some networked games.
    • I could just do a google search, but maybe this will spark discussion... Why the JavaVM for the ps2? Aren't the graphics libraries sub par? I have yet to see a "good" java game on standard wintel hardware. If gaming isn't the goal, then I assume some sort of cheap service platform is.

      Just curious about the reasons for Java on the ps2, and the potential it holds...

      Thanks,
      Andrew
      • Java does SDL, nuff said :)
      • "Bringing our own software to the living room on nice hardware". My guess is he wants to run his software, written in Java, on livingroom hardware.
      • If you want to do a 3D live action game then do NOT use java. It is too slow. My definition of "too slow" - anything that isn't the fastest possible.

        If you want to do something else, then ignore me.

        Also for 3D games you need a good 3D package. See if your university has Maya (www.alias.com) and the PS2 export stuff (or bug your administration AW is very generous towards univeristies). 3d Max is cheaper if you have to buy it, but if you are not paying Maya is better.

      • but your standards might be different than mine.

        Space Cowboy: http://external.eyeone.com/spacecowboy/ [eyeone.com]

        And here's my crappy java game, Anirak [angelfire.com] that I have been developing with a 12-year old in order to teach him how to make games.

        • And here's my crappy java game, Anirak [angelfire.com] that I have been developing with a 12-year old in order to teach him how to make games.

          You, good sir , are a schollar and a gentleman! That's how I learned to program. Sitting round a VIC-20 with my dad , while he showed me (or worked out with me!) how to make nuggety little games. Now that learning is earning me bucks and position. What an excellent thing to do. Good on you.
      • The latest release of the Java 3D APIs delegate handling to underlying open-gl calls, and in some cases to the video card itself.

        It's proven to be one of the lowest-level Java APIs available.

        When Sony releases the JDK for the PS2, expect to see some additional APIs which handle rendering. Remember, a java program is only as good as the APIs it calls. If Sony builds these well, you shouldn't even be able to tell.

        Also on a side note, a child response to this message said he'd never seen any good Java games for the WinTel platform. Well, my response would be all of JellyVision's games (You don't know Jack, Who wants to be a millionaire) were written using Java and JNI (Java Native Interface). The graphics calls were done in C++, and I expect the same to happen for the PS2. Sony will probably use JNI to provide wrappers for the existing calls.

        .anacron
      • I have yet to see a "good" java game on standard wintel hardware.


        You'll notice that the original question didn't mention games at all, yet everyone seems to be assuming the plan is to write a game, just because it's on the PS2. My guess is that the plan was to do something else interesting, and to have it available on a machine that's in the living room, not at work or in the study...

    • I saw that demo, and I'm pretty confident in saying that it was *really* a demo of the linux-on-PS2 port that has existed for some time. (It's available for purchase in Japan--no American version is out.) It being a Java conference, they simply didn't mention that the JVM was only available thanks to the linux port.

      JVMs for linux have been around for some time--I think it's unlikely that a JVM will be developed for the Sony-proprietary operating system for the PS2.

  • JavaGaming (Score:4, Informative)

    by EvilJohn ( 17821 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @11:50AM (#2325368) Homepage
    You might want to keep an eye on www.javagaming.org . A few of the Sun Guys Frequent that site, and will sometimes post little bits of information.

  • From own college experience (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @11:50AM (#2325375) Homepage Journal
    From my own senior design projects, let me discourage you from designing a game. We (3 of us) designed a PC game that used DirectX7, used 2D graphics, sound, and was online only (no AI). After working and designing it all year, we could only get people on the screen fighting one another. The amount of work we put in was the most out of any of the projects.

    I don't want to discourage you too much, but designing a game with graphics and everything is a huge task. Most people have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they do it, and it can pay dearly on the other classes you will be taking (I dunno about you, but the last year of college was the hardest classes, all requiring multiple programs to be done all year long). If you want to design a game, may I suggest something similar to a MUD or MOO? You can put more features into it, and people can have fun playing it. But getting a game working (with graphics) on a PS2 will require a ton of time, and a large team of people.
    • Yeah I spent a semester implementing a simple card game we had designed in a software engineering class. There was AI involved and no graphics (although graphics could easily be dropped on top because everything was in nice little classes). It still took me an entire semester and the game sucked. Oh well!
    • I can't believe that this was only modded up to
      2 ... I would say 5

    • Maybe you should have taken advantage of an existing codebase for your game? For my game-related Major Qualifying Project, I'm using code from several GPL'ed programs. Programming from scratch is hard, and there is no point in re-inventing the wheel. Cheers.
      • I would think most professors would consider using another person's code cheating? I could be wrong...
        • Would that apply to standard libraries as well? It's all a matter of degree, discussion, and most importantly attribution. If he/she clearly delineates what his contribution was and what code was recycled, I can't imagine a problem. What I can imagine is a problem is the conflict between the school's traditional right to own the copyright on all works produced for credit and the GPL. :)
          • Own the copyright all works produced for credit? Those are some sucky terms. At my university, the author retains the copyright to all his or her own works (including those done for classes) unless they were produced on paid university employee time. I would have serious moral issues with a university that claimed to own copyright on projects I do for class. (I already paid them, right?)
      • We, actually, considered crystalspace and other 3D engines, but decided to go 2D. It was a learning process, so we thought we'd go ahead and do the from scratch thing so we could learn DirectX.
    • Although your analysis and advice are good i believe the target is in error. The question says nothing about games. Some of the pitfalls of designing any software for a PS(2) would be the lack of experienced people to go to when you get stuck with some esoteric "feature" or bug in the ps2 environment.

      What would be a cool non-game piece of software to implement on a PS2? Some of the suggestions I have are: striped down photoshop style program, get a coupld of electrical engineers to make you a keyboard and make some simple office components. Now these are pretty tame and unoriginal ideas I expect better from the rest of slashdot.

      DD

    • He's right. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EnglishTim ( 9662 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @12:13PM (#2325500)
      It'll take you ages. Especially if you want to do it on a PS2 (even if you had access to professional tools). Especially if you've got no previous games programming experience.

      If you're going to do a game...

      a) Write it on a PC - much easier to debug etc..
      b) Use as much middleware as you can - if possible, use someone else's engine.

      I wrote a game last year called Hunt for the Red Baron [smallrockets.com] in 9 months. I was the only progammer and I had an Artist and a part-time games designer working with me. We used Renderware and a load of our own libraries, and without them I'd never have had time to do it, and I'd already got several years of games programming experience behind me. Believe me, all that boring stuff to load in bitmaps, handle input, etc etc takes ages. Go for a existing engine if you can.

      The other option is just to write an engine for your project and forget the game side of things, and just end up with a demo.

      cheers,

      Tim


    • Yep, designing an entire game is probably more effort then you want to put into a school project.


      OTOH, ever thought about doing a game port? Nethack is GPL'ed, and while the text version would suck on a playstation (trust me, text on most TV is icky), there is a version with isometric tiles that looks pretty nice, and, due to being a deriviative of nethack, is under the GPL with the source code available. Just do a google search for "Eagle Eye Nethack" and you should find it.


      Of course, I'm biased. I want a good game ported to another platform. Plus, since you save some time by porting an existing game, you have time to add more tiles to the game, which eagle eye nethack desperately needs.


      Just my $.02

      • I don't want to discourage you too much, but designing a game with graphics and everything is a huge task

      Listen to this man. I spent a few happy years hacking Netrek [netrek.org], but when I actually tried to do a Master's thesis on an AI 'bot for it, I found that I had time to write the software, or to do the thesis, but not both. And that was on a small, well defined subset of a very mature 2D game, with no display component to worry about!

      Further to that, I didn't learn my lesson and spent a frantic couple of years as a commercial games developer. It was a vertical learning curve, and the pressure and expectations were immense. I just wasn't good enough, and got out. Since then, I have coasted through a couple of corporate code monkey, using no more than half of the potential that I was expected to show every day as a games developer.

      So hear this clearly: writing games is hard. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a producer, an armchair expert, or a psycho uber geek. ;)

    • Not for the PS2, but you might want to check out Stanford's video game competition [stanford.edu]. The games are all full 3D, and many have simple, but effective, AI, not to mention great gameplay! The results are incredible: after only 3 weeks, 3 people.
      • I wrote two worthwhile video games while at Stanford. Both used OpenGL. The first I wrote by myself. It took two weeks and was for CS 148. It was originally written for a Mac and the Windows port and source is here [angelfire.com]. The Mac version had simple 3-d sound but I've never bothered to do the sound under windows. I also have a linux port which I've never bothered to release. Since the scope of the game was pretty limited it wasn't that hard to have a quality product after only two weeks of effort.

        The second game took a semester and was our final project. It was a much more ambitious project. Though there were four people on the team only two of us really did any work. It was a tank game set on campus. You could either play online against other people or against the computer. We found that we really didn't have the time to properly implement all the features that we wanted to include. If we had spent two semesters on it we could have really made it great. As it was it turned out to be a fun but flawed game. Maybe someday I'll get it out and port it to some other platforms.

    • Check out the latest Blender (v2.2?). It has a game development engine, and seems to work quite well. A non-programmer friend of mine built a game akin to the 80s Battlezone arcade game in one weekend. You can easily "complicate" the game for a senior CS project by making use of the built-in Python interpreter, etc. Would certainly help you make an interesting game, and extend Blender's game with Python scripts, or possibly (I haven't checked) C/C++ add-on modules. http://www.blender.nl

  • I wouldn't worry. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Xenopax ( 238094 ) <[xenopax] [at] [cesmail.net]> on Thursday September 20, 2001 @11:50AM (#2325376) Journal
    I am wondering what various pitfalls I should expect.

    Don't worry, Pitfall hasn't been released for the PS2.
    • Don't worry, Pitfall hasn't been released for the PS2.

      ...proving definitively that the Atari 2600 platform is superior to the PS2.

      • Just get Activision Classics for the PSX and play it on the PS2 like I did :)

        Schnapple
        • What, with every 5th farking vertical line missing?

          I had that game for about 24 hours. I love Activision, and after the sheer joy and nostalgia that was the Atari/Midway collection running on Digital Eclipse's emu, I expected more great retrogaming.

          I grew up with an Atari 2600 and many bought or borrowed Activision carts. I thought I was going to really gorge on the 20+ games on that disc.

          Whoever wrote the graphics system for that collection blew it bigtime. It looks like the end result of using a 640x480 LCD projector with an 800x600 display! The whole thing shimmers and any one-pixel vertical line that moves horizontally (bullets) will shimmer in and out.

          Gah! Traded it in towards MGS anyway.

          GTRacer
          - Would buy version 2.0 if they fixed the gfx

  • I'm sure you really want a challenge, but how about developing for Playstation 1 instead? I'm not sure how complex your game must be, but remember it takes teams of devlopers, graphic artists, etc. a year or two develop games, if not longer. Gran Turismo 3 is the first game that was solely developed using PSX2 code. How long did they probably have the pre-reqs and all this information you need to develop that game? While I'm sure you aren't doing anything as complex as GT3, I'd still suggest doing it for the PSX1 instead
    • Sounds like a plan to me, I've always wanted to get into console programming, but haven't ever got around to it.


      Anyone have some informative links to info for coding on the original PS?


      I don't even know where to start (not this matters this will probably remain unfinished project #9877586) I'm assuming you'd need a mod chip to play burned discs...

    • "Gran Turismo 3 is the first game that was solely developed using PSX2 code. "


      What are you talking about? How about justification for that statement, as I believe you are full of it.

  • The dreamcast development scene is quite good. I suggest some of the standard places like Marcus Comstedt's Page [mc.pp.se] and Dan Potter's DC Dev Page [allusion.net]. I've just bought myself the serial slave cable from Lik Sang [liksang.com] and I plan to start coding soon.

    I don't know what the PS2 situation is like.

    • Agreed. Dreamcast already has a thriving development scene, though most of it is porting existing emulators:

      DCEmulation.com [dcemulation.com]

      Plus, the Dreamcast can already boot from a CD-R, something the PS2 can't do natively. And they're $80 these days.

      Also, Bleem [bleem.com] [bleem.com] has made the most of the independent DC scene. Randy (of Bleem) reverse engineered all his own tools and they finally released BleemDC for GT2, the first commercial software based emulator for one console based on another. They're about to unveil one for Metal Gear Solid that makes that game look even better than the PC port. If you hit the Bleem!Cast Forum [dcemulation.com] [dcemulation.com] and ask real nice, Rand will probably even answer questions for you (he's pretty cool like that).

      As for porting non-emulators, a guy on the DCEmulation page going by crt0 ported Doom to the console, the first game to be ported to it (and the first "straight" port of Doom), so you might want to give him a shout on the boards.

      Schnapple

  • I definitely heard from RedHat people that they did the original PS2 emulator for Sony, which was to be released Open Source (I don't know about free, but I think it may be so). Sony needed this emulator to develop games for the PS before the hardware was working.

    cheers!

  • do your own damn project (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Will /. be in the references?

  • Metrowerks has a PS2 compiler (Score:3, Informative)

    by bbh ( 210459 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @11:57AM (#2325407)
    Here [metrowerks.com] is a link to Metrowerks CodeWarrior for Playstation 2. I'm not sure about the pricing, but there is a pricing link there where you can send a request for pricing on it. There is also a datasheet, FAQ, etc.. there. Definitely a place to start.

    bbh
    • You really should hunt around actually. Or perhaps consider PS1 as a base for a game. I managed to get a really outdated and Cheap copy ($30) of Code Warrior at my school store, and it included the PSX compiler.

      Food for Thought ^_^x
    • If you have to 'request' pricing, ask for a quote, 'just' call and talk to anyone, it is WAY too expensive to consider. Most of the time, this is the way to sort out the hobbiest doing it for the love, from the professional doing it for the dough. It will be especially bad if they'll only give a price on the phone, where the sales person has to act as a trauma counsellor after you hear the price. When getting a quote requires a *visit* from a sales person, you'd better hope they bring an anesthesiologist - 'cuz it's gonna be painful.

    • The following is a response to a query about the codewarrior kit:


      Hi,

      Thanks for your e-mail and for your interest in CodeWarrior for
      PlayStation2. The first step in beginning to develop games for the
      PlayStation2 is to become licensed by Sony. The use of our tools
      requires that you have the hardware and software that Sony provides to
      its licensed PS 2 developers. Have you already begun the licensing
      process with Sony and if so what stage are you currently in?
      Once the licensing process is complete you will be able to use our tools
      to develop for the PlayStation2. Prices for the software range from
      $4800-$7200 per seat.
      If you have any additional questions please don't hesitate to contact me
      directly. Look forward to hearing from you soon!

      Regards,

      Becky


      So start saving your pennies, because the licensing from Sony is very expensive.


  • screwed (Score:2, Informative)

    by YOND R BOY ( 463829 )
    well, codewarrior seems to be popular with the kids despite its $5000+ price tag and that isn't even counting the $40,000 sony charges to be a licensed developer, a title without which Metrowerks won't sell you a PS2 compiler. Besides, there has to be something free out there (or maybe make your project a PS2 compiler!!!)

  • Python! (Score:4, Informative)

    by smallpaul ( 65919 ) <paul@@@prescod...net> on Thursday September 20, 2001 @11:58AM (#2325417)
    Python has been used for commercial games on the PlayStation 2. I don't think that the development tools are on the Web because of Sony licensing. But if you know who to talk to [python.org] and where to look [python.org], you can probably find them.

    • Ultima Online 2 (Score:2, Interesting)

      by coockie ( 4628 )
      Python runs fine on PS2.
      As it has good bindings to C++ performance critical stuff can be moved outside of the scripts.
      By the way, see http://www.asbahr.com/papers.html
      for some info on python used in Ultima Online 2.
    • I was hoping that someone with more info would jump in. I know for sure that Python has been used for AI and scripting of PS2 games. And I know that there is a Python Game writing API (mostly used so far for old-style arcade games) called PyGame. I do now know whether PyGame itself is available on the PS2.

      If not, I do not know how rich the Python APIs for the PS2 are. You'd better check with one of the guys who have done it (links in parent)!

    • Re:Python! (Score:2, Interesting)

      by JasonAsbahr ( 54085 )
      Erwin Coumans and I have (independently) ported Python to the PS2, and I'm currently working on a project which allows designers to create game logic in a GUI tool and automatically generate Python code for the control of PS2 agents. I probably *will* be releasing the PS2 patches to Python shortly, and I hope to be able to detail some of the GUI work in a paper at the upcoming Python conference [python10.org].

      Next up: Python for the GameCube!

      Jason
      jason at asbahr dot com

  • Go for dreamcast, NOT ps2 for homebrew (Score:4, Informative)

    by batkiwi ( 137781 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @11:59AM (#2325421)
    The dreamcast has an EXCELLENT community built up around homebrew.

    There is an awesome library/miniOS called KOS which gives you hooks into everything, you compile with an SH4/ARM crosscompiled gcc, and it's easy to do once you're set up.

    http://dcdev.allusion.net/

    The PS2 homebrew crowd is JUST STARTING to get off the ground, but there's still problems of having to hack your ps2 with a soldering iron to get it to boot a cdr/etc, as well as very weak library support.

    Homebrew console programming is very fun, but go for dreamcast, ESPECIALLY with how cheap dc's are right now.

    There's even ways to get a serial cable hooked up, so you get debug info and can upload your program without burning a disc every revision.

    Better support will not be found!
    • There's quite a bit of useful information(Boob [boob.co.uk] has some good links in addition to the aforementioned) out there and it's got some great games. Bangai-o is especially worth, errm, researching.
      • The dreamcast has an EXCELLENT community built up around homebrew

      Good point. Also, how about the Gameboy Advance? Cheap hardware (free emulators easily available), decent developer resources [gbadev.org], plus it restricts you to realistic projects and obliges you to be disciplined during design and development.

      The compiler is time limited evaluation ware with a hack, or you could beg poverty.

      It's a fun platform that teaches valuable skills, and it's realistic. Go for it!

    • KOS 1.1.3 also runs on Game Boy Advance. As for getting into it *cheap*, lik-sang.com has a GBA coding cable for $20. Bang!

      -=nft=-

  • Java games API (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Dy1ng34r7h ( 518417 )
    You might want to get in contact with the people doing this...

    http://www.jcp.org/jsr/detail/134.jsp

    JDK1.4 allows double buffering and full screen control, so start with that as a base (it's in beta at the moment)

    If you do decide to use Java, go for something simple that is 2D based and tries to engage the mind rather than blister the fingers.

    Good luck!
  • I'd say if you're already posting a slashdot article just to find development tools, then you're going to have much bigger problems actually doing the development.
  • It occurs to me that there are already a substantial number of games available for Linux. How about concentrating on making them available on the PS2 with a porting effort instead of writing a game from scratch? The way I see it, if you're writing a game for the PS2 as the project, you're really dealing with 2 major topics, the machine's architecture AND the porting effort and all of the issues inherent to that (which you'll need in order to get a working compiler, etc.). If you limit yourself to one of the two issues, I think you'll have a much better chance of meeting your goal.

    That said, how about considering porting a gaming toolset/harness/framework to the PS2 as a sort of bootstrap for games to be easily developed for the PS2? What comes to mind for me is SDL and one or more of the toolkits surrounding SDL (especially PyGame!). That way, you'll be able to actually contribute something to the community, and you'll get working PS2 games (hopefully) in the bargain.

    On the other hand, you could just obtain the stock PS2 development kit (whatever it is) and concentrate on just making a game using the tools they recommend. Given the lack of PS2 titles though, that must be more difficult than it sounds.
  • Metrowerks has a compiler suite. Check out this site [metrowerks.com] for info on all their game console suites. Don't know the price, but they do have a 30 day eval.
  • The only compiler I know of for the Playstation 2 (and many game platforms) is Metrowerks CodeWarrior for PlayStation 2 [metrowerks.com].

    It is very expensive, but it is nice to use a compiler that works the same for multiple platforms such as Linux, Windows or the Palm OS. As for cost, you need to contact games@metrowerks.com for a pricing/packaging matrix.

    • From the free trial page [metrowerks.com]: :(

      (You must be a licensed Sony PlayStation 2 developer to receive this product.)


      If you are not a licensed PlayStation 2 developer but are interested in signing up,
      please email: The_Future@playstation.sony.com or call 650-655-6040
      for more information on how you can become a licensed developer.


      So the question is, will becoming a licensed PS2 developer cost more than the compiler?
    • The only compiler I know of for the Playstation 2 (and many game platforms) is Metrowerks CodeWarrior


      Of course, there's always gcc. Sony supply gcc-2.95.2 with their PS2 Linux kit available in Japan. Assuming the necessary changes aren't already in gcc-3.0, you can request them from Sony. However, just having a working compiler won't get you very far. You need datasheets for programming the custom hardware, and preferably prewritten libraries that do most of the hard work for you. A genuine PS2 development kit comes with these, but it also comes with a hefty 5 figure price tag. The bottom line is, if you're looking to do anything on a PS2 that does something graphical, you're probably out of luck. Unless you can get your hands on a PS2 Linux kit, of course, which comes with a "PS2 Special Graphics Library", which as I understand things, is an OpenGL (or Mesa) implementation for the PS2 gfx hardware.

  • PS2 Coding (Score:3, Insightful)

    by white ( 2712 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @12:04PM (#2325455) Homepage
    PS2 coding is *very very tough* if you want to get something that's fast. To get the best performance out of the PS2, you have to synchronise a lot of different hardware - it took us 18 months to get a decent engine written, and we're a team of experienced game coders. You have to understand that hardware backwards, and be aware of the various hardware pitfalls that exist.

    It's a very, very, very difficult beast to code without using middleware, and that's expensive stuff.
  • I don't mean to sound rude (though I'm sure that it will anyway) but at university in the UK, CS dissertations are supposed to be on (or at least near) the cutting edge of CS technology. Writing code, and researching ideas that advance computing e.g. there were projects on CASE tools, radical design methodologies, evolutionary algorithms etc, etc.

    It seems to me that writing software (be it a game of a 'conventional' app) with the only twist being that it's on a PS2 is a bit of a waste when you should be showing real talent and original thinking.

    Oh, and as has been said before, if you're planning to write a graphical game, DON'T. They're bloody hard.
    • Agreed on the graphical game bit but I don't agree with the cutting edge bit - for a bachelors about the hardest thing you'll do is write a compiler, although this isn't easy either.

      Elgon - Any compiler will have n passes, where n tends towards the number of coders on the project.
    • Here is the crux of the education issue:

      Are you going to school to get a masters/PhD and be a Mr/Mrs Know-it-all on computer science? Or are you just some guy who likes computers and stuff and wants to get a job writing code?

      Despite my dogged studies of semiconductor engineering, I found it easier to get a job writing code becuase I happened to have an on campus job integrating Adobe Acrobat forms with an Oracle DB using Perl.

      Was any of it a waste? No. But in todays job market (unless you have a 4.0 GPA) people won't hire without experience. And especially in the US, college is really just the step everybody takes before getting a job.

      However, there could be a very good reason for writing games for a class. If his team evolves a Software Engineering Process (using various techniques like modifying PSP) while writing a game, that satisfies BOTH the educational aspect and the "I have job skills" aspect. We did that on our software engineering class. It's a good way to stay motivated about a project (and our networked Uno game kicked ass!)
  • It's funny you ask about developing for the PSX2. The school I'm attending [scad.edu] offers game developement as a majour, and part of that course involves design for console systems. About four years ago the GD department purchased about 30 of the PSX developement stations for use in the program. What's really great about this, however, is that any student who is attending the school can sign out one of the boxes, just like a library; that is, any student can just waltz on in, present their id, sign on the line, and waltz on out with a PSX developement box to play with. Of course, the program has since STOPPED using those boxes, so they pretty much lie dormant most of the time.

    The other problem with the boxes is that no one here knows how to program for them. We're an ART school, and our game design courses are more focussed on the artistic side of game developement, not the technical side. SCAD turns out GD theorists, level designers (we're the only art school in the country that offers a Master of Architecture), texture artists, modelers and animators (some students have gone on to work for Digital Anvil, Square, etc).

    We've got something of a predicament here; we have a GREAT art department, but sadly we have no programmers here, and so the potential of those 30 boxes are more or less wasted.

    This post is something of a followup to the topic: What should artists in a position like ours be doing? The potential for some beautiful stuff is there; any recommendations on a way to learn basic PSX programming to utilise that potential? Remember, you're speaking to an artist here; I know nothing of programming beyond very basic VB stuff =)

    This post will probably never see +2, but any responses are appreciated.

    ~Aaron.
    aabdel20@NOSPAM.student.scad.edu
    • How about utilizing the potential of references to creative poets? I'm talking about your sig, penned by Stephen Crane in 1899.
    • I actually work at a game company who has done development on a lot of consoles. I bet that you will find the PXS stifling. I have spoken with many of the artists here and they found themselves very limited by the memory requirements. The PSX has 2 Megs of memory.. thats not much. Makes those old PSX games that much more impressive.

      I've never programmed the PSX itself, but I would venture to guess that you would probably be better off working on a PC. Probably easier to program and allows for a lot more flexibilty. Even so, writing games at all is a major effort.
  • Try using the SDL and OpenGL. These have both been ported to the PS2, see this link [slashdot.org] for more details. Then you should be able to develop on Linux and port later.
    I was discussing this very issue with my supervisor yesterday. I work in a VR lab and we are looking at training tools that run on a PS2, and XBox or a DreamCast or whatever.
    The conclusion we reached is that the way to go is to design the project with this in mind but work on PCs and build something going on the PC platform first. The large cost of a console development seat makes doing it for a student project seem a bit unwise. However if you used the SDL you could move it later.
  • I was part of a class that allowed me to work on some PS1 development kits. These were special kits for hobbyists and even then they were thousands of dollars. Getting a PS2 setup, if it is even possible for an amateur developer will be expensive and difficult. I suggest some alternatives:

    1) Check out dreamcast development. It is geared much more towards hobbyists, etc. (At least thats what Ive been told).

    2) Dont do any coding. Thats monkey work. :) Instead, if you are allowed, put together a detailed a design doc, perhaps some technical docs on the algorithms, etc that you would have to use to implement your game.

    3) Use the SDL. Check out http://www.libsdl.org/. Far simpler to get up and running, free, and really decent quality. Make a pac man clone or something SIMPLER. Remember the project will be more about learning the SDL then writing the game. These things take more time then you can imagine, and with a full course load... I have made the mistake of trying to do an original, complex game... and its NOT pretty what happens to you.

    4) Good luck!

  • A PS2 developer speaks (Score:5, Informative)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @12:13PM (#2325501)
    That would be me :)

    The main thing to expect from the PS2 is that you have minimal to no library support. If you want to get polygons or bitmaps on the screen, you have to manage video memory yourself, you have to talk to the graphics hardware directly, and so on. If you want to really get performance, then you have to write custom assembly code for the vector processors.

    The bottom lines are: (A) the learning curve is very steep; and (B) expect to do very embedded-systems type of work, and not be able to rely on fancy C++, Java, or the like.
    • That would be me, too :-)

      The development system costs $10,000 and requires signing an NDA. Also, SCEA generally want to see a business plan or some indication that you're going to release product.

      It's very complex hardware to work with in any significant way. Very powerful, but when you have 6 functional units (EE, VU0, VU1, GS, IOP and SPU) all operating in parallel and synchronised (generally) by DMA commands, it's going to be tough to program. At least C++ and STL do work pretty well, there are plenty of companies relying on them for their games. Be thankful for small mercies :-)

      In all honesty I would not recommend you look to straight PS2 development for your project. I have some alternate recommendations:

      PS2 Linux kit - may not be released in the USA, or not in time for your needs. Runs on the consumer PS2 (with the HDD addon) and has more library support.
      Gameboy Advance - has some of the PS2 issues, namely expensive development hardware and NDAs, but much easier for a single programmer to produce something credible on with.
      XBox - you can do most of your work on a regular PC under DX8. Easiest programming environment of the 3. But if you do this, maybe you would be better just on a PC with a GeForce 3?

  • Is this about game development? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BluePenguin ( 521713 ) on Thursday September 20, 2001 @12:13PM (#2325504) Homepage
    Wait a minute... is this even about games? He said "Im thinking of building my final year CS project around developing a piece of software for the Playstation 2 ... Bringing our own software to the living room on nice hardware seems like a whole new computer medium that would be fun to exploit." I'm wondering if the project in mind really is a game or something else? I'm not a PS2 guy, but if it (like the DreamCast) has a keyboard / modem (or NIC), couldn't you do things with it besides games?

    Just a thought...
    After all, isn't it just bits in the end?

  • SDL can be used (Score:2, Informative)

    by criswell4096 ( 320914 )
    One of the cross-platform multimedia libraries that has already been ported to the PS2 is SDL [libsdl.org]. f you have the PS2 Linux Dev kit (hard to get) then you can just download PS2 SDL from here [libsdl.org].

    I have no idea how well the support is... or the speed... but it works well enough that there is a port of Maelstrom [devolution.com] for it. I have heard that you may also be able to use the SDL OpenGL wrappers to make 3D PS2 apps.

    If you are using the PS2 Linux dev kit, you can use the GCC (I think) as well as autoconf|automake.

  • The biggest problem with using a platform such as the PS2 for a project is that you generally have to figure out too many things that are only tangentially related to the task at hand, because they lack standardized APIs. It is true that using DirectX or OpenGL still requires you to learn a great deal, but at least there is significant amounts of tutorial information and documentation to fall back upon.


    Games are hard to design and program (at least good ones are). They generally require tapping into the graphics and sound for your machine, they must respond in real time, there are tons of artwork to generate and in the end they have to be engaging and fun. The advantage of course is that they are fun.

  • Last semester I tried to do exactly what you want to do, and with a team of 4 guys we were able to producs a decent 2D sprite driven game in assembly for the PS2. This however was the only class that we took, and it took up most of our free time.
  • One of the ways console manufacturers manage to keep their prices down is by passing the buck. I've spoken to several console developers, and they usually seem to hint at $20K to $50K for the complete development kit. The Metrowerks PS2 Codewarrior is only one small part of the equation. You also need the development PS2 console that allows play of CD-Rs, as well as debugging features that you won't find on the $300 PS2 at the store. I'm sure there's also extensive documentation included with these packages.

    An alternate route would be to track down a Yaroze PS1. Sony released a special $750 PS1 package a few years back that included a simple development kit, a special PS1, and an RS-232 link for uploading the information. The catch was that the Yaroze system couldn't create CDs... any game you wrote had to fit in the 2MB of main memory.

    Someone else has mentioned Dreamcast... this would probably be the best way to approach the situation. There are several websites that will show you how to burn a CD that will boot on the Dreamcast and run using Windows CE. The catch with this "hack" is that I don't think it can call the 3D hardware.

    Of course, Linux has been ported to PS2 and Dreamcast, so you could write a linux game for either of those consoles. The cost is minimal (Dreamcast's linux is burned to a CD-R, and PS2's linux is bundled with a NIC and Hard Drive for $160 or so in Japan).

    That's how I see your options, assuming you really want to make a console game.
  • The Java compiler that is part of the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) can compile Java into Machine Language. So why bother with a virtual machine?

    Also, GCC would allow you to easily write classes in C++ which can be used by Java to access the internals of the PS2. Java by itself prevents this sort of low level access.

  • Try PlayStation 1 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by e.a.kendrick ( 323575 ) <<slashdot> <at> <erickendrick.com>> on Thursday September 20, 2001 @12:35PM (#2325614) Homepage
    As the PlayStation 2 is backwardly compatible, you could try the official NetYaroze development kit for PS1 - this will create fast, efficient code. Unfortunately, with the release of PS2 Sony have stopped making them, but you can probably get a second hand kit from ebay or somewhere. You develop Yaroze programs in C on your PC - you can then burn them onto a CD. There is also a lot of interest groups and free code out there (NetYaroze license means you can never charge for your software). For the PS2 to play these CDs you will have to have it "chipped" which will invalidate your warranty (not something I recommend, but very popular I believe 8-).

    Alternatively you can try YaBasic, Sony's "replacement" for Yaroze, which should come on the CD with your PS2. You can save YaBasic programs to memory card (so, small apps), and they will be slower (interpreted). YaBasic is a little simplistic - you will struggle to create anything impressive without extra tools (and a USB keyboard is essential). Like most people, I glanced at it once, then got onto playing DVDs and games, but I am sure others could support you here. PS2 magazine in the UK are currently running a series of YaBasic tutorials that can get you started though. I'll try and dig out some URLs for you.

    With the emerging HD/modem for PS2, I believe Sony are releasing a Web Browser CD - which hopefully means a Java Virtual machine. You could investigate this option as it also opens up the wider Internet PC/Digital TV alternatives.

    The next thing up is to get a PS2 professional developers' kit which you could only justify if you were seriously thinking of making a business out of this project, and could get financial support to see it through. It is a nice idea, so I wish you luck.

    • The US PS2 came with no such CD. I think that was a Europe-only deal. I vaguely remember a story about it. So, no YaBasic for us.

      • I think that was a Europe-only deal. I vaguely remember a story about it.

        This story [slashdot.org] covered the inclusion of yabasic on the European PS2 demo disc to get it qualified as a "computer" because importers of "computers" don't have to pay as much tax as importers of "game consoles." However, if Sony tried this in the United States, it would lose the rental market to 17 USC 109(b)(1) [cornell.edu], which states that computer software (other than game console software) can't be rented without excessive paperwork between the rental store and the copyright owners.

  • If there's the means (an OS) and the tools (the dev kit) on something as lucrative as the PS platform, it'll have people crawling all over it, especially when the OS is Linux.
    • Sure. if anyone could do real PS2 software people all over it.

      And there would be lots of crappy software and no way for Sony to control it and thus get revenue out of it. Two things Sony doesn't want.

      Bad software makes a platform look bad. This is accepted in the game industry as one of the big reasons the Atari2600 died.

      Then you need to understand the revenue model of platofrm development. Somy sells PS2s at a loss. (All platform makers do.) They make their money off of their lciense fees from game developers. This requires a complete control of the platform in order to insure proper licensing.

      Sony will release the Linux in the US but don't kid yourself-- you wont be writing real PS2 games with it.

  • It's not like java was designed for developing applications to run on small, embedded, and consumer devices. Sheesh! Some people...

  • GameBoy Advance (Score:1, Interesting)

    by chmod007 ( 263147 )
    Why not just code on the gameboy advance there's a lot of utils and examples out there in fact you could use good old GCC compiled for the ARM processor. Then you could use the linker from Lik Sang [lik-sang.com]. A good page to start is http://www.devrs.com/gba/ [devrs.com].
  • Blender [blender.nl] has a game engine, is free, and supposedly has a PS2 port or NaN, people who make Blender, have a PS2 toolkit. Try them. Also Blender has ports to just about every platform there is. Linux, BeOS, Windows, etc. That would at least give you a toolkit to start with and there is a huge Blender community [blender.nl].
  • I have no idea what would be involved in an undertaking such as this, but porting the MAME code to ps/2 would absolutel rock. One disc could hold a ton of games (especially if it were DVD-R). It might also make for a good first project...a port as opposed to a ground up rewrite.
  • The Nokia Media Terminal [nokia.com] promises to be much friendlier to the small developer.

    According to their FAQ [ostdev.net] you can use Java.

    1.3. Do I have to write my OST application in C++?

    No. You can write applications in any language that has an interpreter or that is supported by the application environments. This currently includes C, C++, Java, JavaScript and MHP. If you want to use something else and it doesn't have C/C++ bindings, you will have to implement that first, though.

  • That would be a good compromise between being a complete pain in the ass and being accomplishable. Your Atari game can run in an emulator until you get it working, then you can pick up a Starpath and run it on an actual Atari.
  • I lvoe Slashdot, you can get al lsorts of advcie from people who don't know anything. here are some realities from the industry:

    (1) Native PS2 is a closed platform. In order to get the PS2 SDKs you need to convicne Sony yo uare a real developerm, sign serious NDAs and fork out $30,000 for a development system. I doubt this is within your reach.

    (2) One true thing posted here is that ANY game paltform is (at most) a bit above bare-metal programming. If you've never done this, trust me, you don't want to start in your senior's project.

    (3) Sony has a Linux for the PS2 out in Japan. It may ge treleased ehgre in the US. That is an open platform BUT you MUST have the hard drive add on to use it. It will not work on a stock PS2.
    Secondly, at that point all you really have is an alternate Linux PC? You might as well do your Linux development on a PC and be done with it.

    (4) Sony and Sun have announced that they will be releasing a Java for the PS2. No other info on that p[roject is yet available. Thre is no gaurantee (or even likelyhood) that sucha Java will be free or open. It is more likely that it will be made part of the Sony developer SDKs.

    • Any tool vendor for the PS2 is forbidden by their licnese agreement from selling that tool to nayoen who isn't a direct Sony PS2 SDK licensee.

      Again its all about control of the paltform because thats where the revenue is.

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