Quake 2 Source Code Released Under The GPL

Masem (and many others) writes: "The source code for Quake 2 is now available until the GPL license. The .plan file for John Carmack has the details." The Id Software site is of course slammed with demand for the code. Hopefully other mirrors will be available.

Really A great Thing

[peripatetic_bum]

You have to hand to Carmack to be a real good guy.

Sure he cant show you everything he's doing right now,

but by releasing, under GPL, the source code,

I think he letting people really learn how a true master

programs.

This is just a Good Thing

Gotta love Carmack

[I-man]

This, among many other reasons, is why I admire John Carmack.

Some may grumble that he only releases old products, no longer commercially valuable, in this fashion. To that I say "shush!". I for one look forward to browsing through the code of such a lovely 3D engine. The learning opportunity alone is grand, to say nothing of what will be done with the code now that it's out there.

Thank you, John.

Responsible and Generous

[DarkZero]

id Software, as always, is being responsible and generous to its fans. Instead of keeping its source code under wraps until the game is released to the public domain by copyright law some time in the year NEVER, id Software has decided to release the source code for a game that it is no longer using so that the fans may tinker with it and learn from it.

If any of the people from id Software are reading this (which there is a chance of): Thank you. You rock.

Cheating.

[Oily Tuna]

ID software are totally correct about the cheating aspects of releasing the code.

There will always be people who try to cheat, and some who succeed. Releasing the source makes it significantly easier to make a cheating client.

However,

i) The benefits of having the source to an extremely successful games outweighs the disadvantages of increased cheating (unless you're a victim of the cheating ... try a lan party instead of the internet next time).

ii) By seeing what the cheats come up with, perhaps the next generation of client-server games will have better cheat avoidance in the server and/or the protocol - we can learn from past mistakes or oversights.

Re:Responsible and Generous

[MindStalker]

Yawn, if you want to create a closed source game, I'm SURE Id software would license you a copy just for that. Ungrateful bastard.

Re:Wow, already!?

[Magila]

but crappy multiplayer.

Huh? Quake more than any other game defined FPS multiplayer as we know it today. Yeah it only came with strait DM out of the box but that on it's own was a big deal back then. And then came the mods. CTF? Team Fortress? Rocket Arena? all created during the golden age of Quake mods. Quake is still considered by many to be the finest multiplayer FPS ever. The fact that you make such a comment makes me doubt you ever seriously played Quake online.

Re:No thanks, John.

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

I think that if he really should deserve reverance, he should release the source *as it happens*.

You haven't had your labotamy re-done lately, right? You imply that someone that is trying to make a $ should release everything they type for free?

When was the last time M$ released the source for M$ Golf? Oh, wait, they never did. OK, well, when was the last time SquareSoft released the souse for the FF seires. Oh wait, they never did. Hmmm...

Seems like Mr. Carmack is onto something...

Wake up, man.

Money and other problems

[DragonMagic]

First off, Carmack seems to release the source code after two other complete games come out. Q1 Source came out after Q3A hit the shelves, now Q2 after Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

But don't forget, that if they released the source code when the game was being created, not only couldn't they make money on the license, but also other companies would be able to compete on the same level without paying a price for it.

Carmack gets paid for his programming skills, but you're arguing that he should get paid to program *everyone's* game, including his competitor, from one company. All the other companies could release their own Quake 3 Arena clones and make money, without even bothering to do anything with the programming.

And don't forget, that when Q3A sold for $40+, id didn't get all $40. It goes from id, to Activision, to the distributor, sometimes to the wholesaler or direct to the big name store, and then possibly to a smaller store. By then, after the expenses of doing the packaging and the duplication, you're talking only a couple dollars profit per game direct to id... Split that among their, what, twelve workers now in the proper ratios, and that's not that much. Less than a dollar each, probably.

Even multiplied by a few million, that's not that much money to pay those huge salaries. How do they make it up? Licensing.

With licensing, there is *no* middleman. It's a contract between id and the company licensing the engine. In the end, it's probably a larger chunk of change than a first month's release returns.

And secondly, you have to remember, as with Carmack's .plan update, that when you release the full code, people *will* find the ways they can use to cheat. They can modify the source for themselves, recompile the engine, and have it work for them. Therefore, the rampant cheats would cause multiplayer to go to pot upon release.

No, what Carmack does is *more* than enough, and these are the factors not only he, but id and other people who can understand the business, realize, and have to protect not only themselves, but their consumers, from these problems.

Re:No thanks, John.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, as an academic exercise, it goes against nearly all the "rules" of having others learn about your code. It was once a lovely 3D engine, now it's akin to releasing the hardware schematics for the TI-99/4A.

huh? the existance of quake 3 takes nothing from the value of quake 2. it's still the same game. it's still the same code. if there is something you don't know that's in the quake 2 code, then there is something you can learn from the quake 2 code. if there is something in the quake 3 code that you don't know, well, that's why carmack is writing it, instead of you, and that's why he gets to drive the (forward-reference) expensive cars you mention.

If you're going to release the source, why not go whole hog? They already have copyrights stemming back many years.

the only semi-sound business models that include open-source code involve profiting from support of that code. that business model simply doesn't work in the context of games for consumers. and without a sound business model, there would be no quake, q2, or q3, as the company would've gone bankrupt with doom.

I think that if he really should deserve reverance, he should release the source *as it happens*.

i doubt he's after reverance. and it's not reverence that's being expressed in this forum, it's appreciation.

There is such a small percentage of the population that would actually download and compile the source for Quake 3 Arena. If the copyright laws stand, he could release the code under a heavily-modified GPL (say, the idPL) and basically state you can use the engine, just not the artwork. Those who would argue that they make significant money off licensing the engine are fooling themselves. They are a multimillion dollar company, and every new Quake or Doom game nets them more millions. They're percentages for licensing revenue must be paltry.

i don't think that the loss of licensing revenue would put them out of business. but increased competition in the marketplace from other companies that get a free (as in beer) engine and only have to pay some artists just might put them out of business.

Carmack drives expensive cars that very few people can afford -- he could stand to give away the full source code at the time the game is released so that the academic world can study his graphic routines. As such for now, he only seems like the snob I once read about in an interview. Asked if he felt he learned anything from his teachers, he said, "Not much, because I was smarter than they were". Being a decent technological coder doesn't exempt you from hubris.

so, your real problem with carmack is not that he doesn't give away his source as he writes it, but that he hasn't become a public servant after finding contentment in his expensive cars? or is your problem the fact that he's smart (or had dumb teachers)?

Re:This matters little

[jslag]

I'm gonna be pissing on the parade here but this GPL release is not going to change the state of linux gaming.

Probably won't end world hunger either. So? Let's appreciate what JC does, not complain that he doesn't solve all our problems for us.

3 Cheers for Carmack!

[Jagasian]

Hip hip HORRAY!!!!

I wish more game developers would adopt his model.

1. Make awesome game.
2. Sell awesome game.
3. Make lots of money in the process.
4. Gamers love game, gamers play game, gamers have fun for many years.
5. Instead of letting a game die ("bit rot", ala Darklands and many other great games), release game as open source to the community (this is true public service people).
6. Coders learn from one of the greatest.
7. Community grows.
8. Repeat ad infinitum.

Sure the hardcore open source fanatics will give a thumbs down to the fact that Carmack wants to make money, but then again, they are fanatics.

I also love how Carmack does it during Christmas... kind of puts a tear in your eye :-) Oh, and I also heard that Carmack does more traditional charity works like buying toys for poor kids during Christmas.

Well, I have bought every game that Carmack has made since Wolf3D... and I am going to buy the new Doom game too. Its important to support the greats.

Re:Actually, it's right on time.

[Jagasian]

Nah, I am not surprised. Carmack has always been a bit of a romantic (in a software engineer sort of way). He seems to like releasing his source code during the Christmas season. Not only that, I have heard that Carmack actually physically goes to a toy store and buys lots of toys for poor kids. I am telling you guys, Carmack is a romantic.

Well, I guess if he really wanted to get weird with it, he could release it on Dec 25th... but this way the code can be mirrored so that by the 25th, every boy and girl can have their own copy of the source code.

Re:nope ~ Re:free data files?

[Jagasian]

If you really wanted to be a good person, you could return the favor to Carmack by going out and buying a(nother) copy of Quake2. Its only right to return the favor.

Re:Great...

[ewhac]

Dude, what are you complaining about?

Looking at a static piece of source code can tell you only so much about a network protocol. You actually have to watch the thing working before you start to see how things interrelate (especially if the commenting was poor). This is why the TCP/IP Illustrated series of books continue to be best-sellers among the networking crowd, even though they've been able to look at the *BSD IP stack source code for years.

Because you've taken the trouble to do dumps and in-depth analysis of a live connection, you are way ahead of the game. The Q2 networking code will be cake for you to take apart and modify.

No quest for knowledge is ever wasted.

Schwab

Re:This matters little

[entrigant]

I'm gonna be pissing on your parade here too, but I honestly don't think the intention was to change the state of linux gaming. Believe it or not Quake2 isn't a Linux only game. This also might surprise you, but it's been out for a while too... What you just said would be like saying releasing the doom source was for the purpose of improving linux gaming. That wasn't the idea.

Re:No thanks, John.

[Scudsucker]

Quake 3 was a big victim of piracy

I doubt that very much. Quake 3 uses the same online authentication system used by Half-Life; each cd comes with a key and only one copy of that key can play online at any one time. That is a very powerful incentive NOT to "share" the game and your key with others that you just spent $50 on (prolly under $20 now).

Re:Responsible and Generous

[Cuthalion]

I frequently run into it on here, but the notion that programmers are a fungible and reallocatable resource is distasteful and wrong.

Programmers who are good at a particular task are good at it because they like it and they understand it well. I'm sure that John Carmack could do a perfectly fine job at writing a GUI or the kernel or improving mozilla or whatever, but if he excells at writing 3d engines, and that's what he wants to do who is any of us to say otherwise. I say we're lucky that his talent and interests are aligned such that we can enjoy them at all! Think of all the people who are like John Carmack but instead of writing 3d games write code that is of no interest to anyone but themselves (this is fine too).

At least you didn't make the claim that open source development is 'wasting its time' with two competing projects. That one REALLY pisses me off.

Re:No thanks, John.

[juhaz]

People don't buy game engines. Companies do buy game engines. Derivative games don't sell, you say? Well, think again, guess what for example Valve used for Half-Life? That's right, Quake, and they paid for it, probably quite a bit of money. And it's certainly not the only successfull non-id game using ID's engine, do you think they would've paid for that engine if it was right there under the GPL right after the Quake went out of the press?

So you really think, ID should just give away it's code for their competitors to use for free?
What are you guys smoking these days?

Re:Hey, every other company in the world, take not

[ChaosDiscord]

If Id released the source for RtCW today, they wouldn't make a penny on their retail sales. Somone would get the source code, edit one line, stick it on an FTP server, and make it available to the world free (as in beer), and most people would get it from there. There would be no legal reason to stop them...

Of course, RtCW is pretty worthless without levels to play through. The engine without levels is of no value to your average gamer. Just because you open source your engine doesn't mean you need to open source your levels, models, textures, sounds, and other data.

There are risks of making your engine open source (As you point out, Id makes money selling its engine to other developers, open sourcing their current engine would kill this model. Also, competing companies could take the engine, saving software development time and focus on developing levels, effectively allowing your competition to leach your work.). But the threat that no one would buy your game isn't there. I buy a game for well crafted, fun levels. The engine is just the foundation that those levels are built on.

I definately agree I'd love to see out of date source made available. I have a number of games I own that I can't play because they're too old (MS-DOS based). I'm perfectly willing to take a stab at updating them, but it's practically impossible to do without the source. There is a risk that this would hurt sales (as I spent time playing old games instead of new games), but I suspect the drop is sales would be minimal (I like shiny new games too much to just stop buying them).

Re:Thanks

[Art Tatum]

Ditto. Q2 is cool and all but CK, written for really low end hardware, has to be a tour de force of ingenious coding. Oh, and BTW RtCW rocks, John. ;-) I like the teamwork aspect of the multiplayer a lot and think that taking the FPS genre in a more intellectual direction in the future is a great angle--maybe even integration of Adventure/Role-playing and FPS or adding combat flight-sim/tank-sim components? Could be cool....