Mythic Sued Over Blocking Auctions of Game Tokens 521
Lukenary writes: "Mythic Entertainment, creator of the excellent MMORPG Dark Age of Camelot, is being sued by BlackSnow Interactive, owner and maintainer of CamelotExchange - an online auction site for the exchange of in-game items, money, and characters/accounts. This could be a landmark case: if you spend (typically) weeks of playing time to garner 1,000 gold in-game, do you have the right to auction off that gold for real money? Mythic has not yet had an official response to the suit, but you can read BSI's press release at the CamelotExchange site above. Personally, I find it interesting that BSI is going after DAoC, calling Mythic a "software giant," while ignoring the more established compettion in EverQuest producer Sony, Asheron's Call producer Microsoft, and Ultima Online producer Electronic Arts. Mythic's only product at this time is Dark Age of Camelot, which was released last October."
read the TOS (Score:2, Insightful)
Guilty (Score:3, Insightful)
As a casual player, its hard enough playing against people with no lives who play 12 hours a day, muchless the farmers who play for a living.
Crazy (Score:2, Insightful)
You have to look at it from both sides. (Score:5, Insightful)
Creating and then maintaining a sustainable economy is a very difficult thing to do in an MMORPG (indeed, nobody has done it yet) and item farmers just make it more difficult.
I find this disturbing... (Score:3, Insightful)
Think about it. I can imagine an unemployed guy sitting home bidding hundreds of dollars for some imaginary characters, while in the same breath complaining to his friends that he doesn't have the dough to buy a suit to go interview for a job.
Last year (Score:1, Insightful)
Didn't we go through this last year [theregister.co.uk] with Sony/Verant vs. eBay.
What was the outcome of that case, and why wasn't it the landmark?
Easier Target (Score:2, Insightful)
First they target someone small, and assuming they get a judgement in their favour they then go waving it in front of other courts as precedent when similar cases rise.
I suppose I should mention IANAL but would anyone actually be stupid enough to base a case on legal advice from
Simple situation. (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because a gamer has no life and plays 10 hours a day doesn't mean he has a right to be compensated for it. It is not a job, no one owes him anything.
Players that sell accounts and objects for real money are capitalizing on the amount of work that mythic has put in to the game.
I think if this is to be allowed, Mythic should recieve a cut of all sales. Of course, since this wouldn't happen, I think it's perfectly right for Mythic to disallow this practice.
I mean really, if you want to make money, get a damn job. If you want to make money using games, become a game developer (Like me =) ).
Re:Crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
They are not creating anything. All the action happens on mythic's servers. Mythic can decide what can and cannot be done on their servers.
It's nothing at all like typing a book in word. It'd be like you searching for pages on google, and then saying that you can sell those pages because you spent your time searching for them, and you're allowed to sell your time.
While you can sell your time, you can't sell something that doesn't belong to you.
Liablility (Score:2, Insightful)
If I were Mythic, I'd be pretty worried about players getting ripped off and then turning to me for compensation. That may be why they take such an aggressive stance on the issue now.
Mythic Sued for own product? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You have to look at it from both sides. (Score:4, Insightful)
DONT MAKE THE FREAKING GAME SO HARD OR TEDIOUS THAT IT MAKES MORE SENSE TO JUST PURCHASE THE ITEM/CHARACTER INSTEAD OF GETTING IT YOURSELF!
Honestly! If you make a leveling treadmill where item spawns are few and far between, thier scarcity gives them real world value. After looking at how long it took me to get to lvl 40 in everquest (7 months of hardcore play) I would much rather pay 600 dollars for a 40th lvl character with decent gear than play through the tedium and hell levels. That, to me, incdicates a broken game.
Of course, the Devs don't get this. UO was the greatest game of this genre ever made, simply because it wasn't a leveling treadmill (per se).
Too bad everyone's copying everquest. Phaugh.
Real Economies (Score:4, Insightful)
This case could be the first splash on the legal scene that leads to the legitimization of non-physical economies.
Why is this important?
Imagine that at some point in the future, a corporation creates an amazingly successful MMORPG. The MMORPG is successful enough that the parent corporation spins off the division to form a new company. This new company maintains the virtual world of the MMORPG and derives all its profits therefrom.
Very possible.
If the company then made a move to allow players of the game to purchase commonly traded shares of the corporate stock for in-game currency, there is a tie between a physical-world economy and a virtual one.
At this point, it would take very little imo/ for the virtual world of the MMORPG to classify as a nation-state.
Consider. It _has_ an economy. There is an exchange rate (albeit an occluded one) between the money of the virtual and physical world. The virtual world has a defineable citizenry.
When enough people engage themselves as citizens of a virtual state, and bring enough income into that virtual state, and exchange income between that virtual state's money and the money of other states....
What happens?
Eventually, would a banking house take interest and provide an exchange rate from one economy to the other?
If so...
How long before the citizenry of the virtual world demands rights.
How long before the citizenry of the virtual world takes those demands to a world-recognized forum?
How long before the representative of Norrath addresses the UN?
Re:You have to look at it from both sides. (Score:2, Insightful)
You played 7 months of Everquest.
Re:Crazy (Score:2, Insightful)
If I ssh into my ISPs shell box (that I pay per month for) and type in a book on their hardware and their CPU cycles do they own it?
I think a long history of legal arguments would say no.
Re:You have to look at it from both sides. (Score:5, Insightful)
The site in question only does exchanges for gold and accounts. Buying an account in DAoC is a bad idea because most of the fun of the game comes from playing in a guild, or working with your realmmates in fighting the other realms. If you buy a high level character, people in your realm probably aren't going to like you that much, and thus you'll be excluded from most of the fun in the game.
Re:Crazy (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine needing to fill out an employment contract with Mythic before playing their game. If you are making money from Mythic, someone is going to get taxed.
All major MMORPG's are in the states, and do think that if they actually pushed to have out-of-game rewards that someone wouldn't have to pay taxes? Bull, and you know that Mythic isn't going to flip the bill, so that is why In-game equity has no real world value, and should be banned by the makers of the games.
If someone wants to break the law and sell thier virtual properties, then that is the individual's choice.
Why Mythic? (Score:2, Insightful)
Mythic doesn't have the money/lawyers to throw at the case that the others do...so it will be easier to win a precedent-setting case against them, and then go after the others.
Virtual laws... (Score:2, Insightful)
One, the court decides that players can "sell off" items for real world cash. If this happens, there will need to be laws in the virtual word if this is to continue. The Characters in Camelot will have to set up a virtual court system to judge the legitimacy of people's actions. The virtual court will have to determine that the item was acquired legitimately. "He stole my Sword of Burping +2 in a Non-PVP area!" Who is going to handle that if the courts give weight to the claims that virtual items can be bartered? Of course, there is the scenario that includes my friend, the programmer at "Magic-Tech MMORPG Company and he programs the game to drop the "SWORD OF GOD" when character named "flogger" pays some NPC named Gump 12 copper coins.
The other thing the courts can do is say, "Nope. No can do. Virtual items have no legitimacy and cannot be bartered for or against." What would this mean? (You try to explain to my wife how that would not apply to the stock market. Heh.) This would then outlaw those e-bay specials and force game companies to police their own areas to ensure this does not go on.
Either way, if this goes through the courts, some creative lawyers are really going to shake up "real life" along with the "virtual worlds."
Re:Crazy (Score:2, Insightful)
Putting that aside, when does copyright begin and end? Well, let's just see what the dictionary [dictionary.com] says.
To shorten the time you'd need to spend clicking, I'll quote the relevant, supporting bits:
"The legal right granted to an author, composer, playwright, publisher, or distributor to exclusive publication, production, sale, or distribution of a literary, musical, dramatic, or artistic work."
Ok, so what is an author [dictionary.com]? Here's the relevant quote for the lazy again...
"The writer of a book, article, or other text."
Now, let me requote what you replied to:
"If I ssh into my ISPs shell box (that I pay per month for) and type in a book on their hardware and their CPU cycles do they own it?"
So, are Merriam, Webster, and the lads at Oxford idiots also, or would you like to retract your statement? Your only other choice is to refute me on the point that typing is not writing, but I've already got that one looked up. Or you could tell me you replied to the wrong comment, but then I'd ask why you typed in my name?
I contend I am correct, and I challenge you to prove me wrong.
Long Anonymous Coward Theories. (Score:1, Insightful)
EQ's official policy on sales of in game paraphanelia for real life money seems to be, "It's bad, and if we catch you, you're gone." Not to flame any software giants, but it's akin to Microsoft's policy of making 'secure' operating systems. IE - if they stumble upon something, great, but if not, they're not going to bother with it.
A quick look at Player Auctions [playerauctions.com] shows quite a few EQ auctions (As well as auctions for other games. This, my friends, is a vast industry with large amounts of capital involved - keep in mind PA isn't the only site coordinating sales.
So why are they going after DAoC? Simple - DAoC is the 'new thing', and the majority of people who *do* have 40+ hours a week to play are switching to it. Those people are the ones who generate the most amount of items/money/characters to sell. Not only that, but as the game is new, items there will sell for higher amounts than those on other games. Items in these games are open-ended - that is, more and more of them enter into the game over time. Logically, if I have spiffy sword +5 on EverQuest, but there's a few thousand of them around, it'll bring in less money than swell sword +3 on DAoC, of which, there's only a few hundred in circulation.
I'm also guessing it's because of the fact that E-Bay went head to head with Verant. Verant said politely, "Please, don't allow auctions for EQ related merchandise." E-Bay laughed - until it noticed the five thousand foot long dragon known as Sony standing behind it. *chuckle* Microsoft's got an array of 800 pound gorillas to beat lawsuits down with, and as for EA, well, they've some muscle themselves. Mythic doesn't really have any phantom legal defenders.
Now, the ideas of legality here. Legally, I don't think they can throw you in jail or anything for doing this. *chuckle* I would hope not, at least, as that'd be pretty.. stupid.. to say the least. However, they can terminate your account if they wish - remember, kids, Terms of Service! Terms of Service! Terms of Service! Click Through Licenses! Shrink Wrap! The stuff everyone throws away and ignores tends to dictate why and how they'll be removing your access to the game if you violate their rules.
I think that it should be acceptable for players to sell goods online. Why? Because - the developers of such games are often driven by greed instead of common sense.
No, this isn't a, "They shouldn't make money" rant. Frankly, they should - the cost of servers, bandwidth, coders, PR, advertisement.. Yeah. They shouldn't exactly be giving out accounts and such for free. But the thing is, they design the games to make players have to keep their accounts as long as possible.
On most MUDs (And the 'era of MUDs' is hardly at an end, for much the same reason the 'era of books' isn't - but that's another story), if you want X equipment, you go slay Y mobile. Nice, simple, and it doesn't require weeks of boredom.
Now take these Massively Multiplayer Online Games (Roleplaying? Hah. That, too, is another story..).. EverQuest, for example. You want X equipment. Ah, but you can't just go slay Y mobile. Often times, Y mobile won't be there, and won't be there for days at a time. And, in the event that Y mobile is there, it'll often have a ridiculously low chance of having X equipment on it when you do take it out.
This in turn makes it so it requires lengthy amounts of playing time (IE, keeping accounts active longer) to get said equipment. Which leads back to powergamers who have 40+ hours a week in which to play. They end up 'owning' the game, they control the 'economy', because they have the time and energy to sit through hours and hours of boredom to get said piece of equipment.
Of course, powergamers are not the bulk of players - average, recreational players are. This leads to some nice 'class struggle', for lack of a better word. Low end recreationists want good equipment, too, but they either can't a) take the time to get it, or b) take the time required to raise the money to buy it.
Which leads us to their solution - buy it, for real life money. They're happy, the seller is happy. About the only people who aren't are the gaming corporations.
I, personally, don't find the idea of purchasing items/etc. for real life money 'strange' or 'done by people with no lives'. Tell me, how much do you spend going to the movies each month? On a case of Bawlz? On other sources of disposable joy/recreation?
In these games, equipment matters - it dictates what you can and can't do, in many cases. While a big part of these games is indeed socialization, socialization always seems to be more fun when you're risking your character's life to take out a large dragon or two. *chuckle*
Indeed, I'd rather take the ($15 minimum per film) money I'd waste seeing crap such as "Battlefield: Earth", "Mission to Mars", et cetera.. And instead, actually have some fun, buy some decent gear, and be able to accompany my fellows on some giant quest to slay a horrible beast.
..Especially when many of the people I play with, I know in real life. Perhaps this is a bad example, but how can people consider people spending money on TSR products (IE, buy this rulebook. Then this. Then these ten.) 'okay', yet consider dropping $20 for a nice sword for EQ/DAoC/etc. 'pathetic'? Both situations don't force you to buy the bells and whistles to enjoy the game - but both options certainly enhance the enjoyment of the game.
Sad Lives? (Score:2, Insightful)
Similarly, prosecutors go after the "scumbags" ... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why they go after kiddie-pornographers first when what they really want to do is censor opinions they don't like.
That's why they go after terrorists first when they want to disarm the general population.
That's why they go after self-confessed promotors of the violation of copyrights first when they want to shut down competitive outlets for content.
And so on.
Getting a conviction of someone perceived as a "bad guy" - and the "badder" the better - is easier than going after someone who isn't harming others. Courts and juries, in their desire to make the "bad guy" stop dong "bad stuff", may overlook the fact that the prosecutor or plantif is using the wrong legal tool to go after him, or may overlook how the precedent could be appllied to a non-"bad guy". Once the precedent is established, it becomes a tool to go after people who are NOT "bad guys".
Additionally "Bad guys" also often have shallow pockets, leaving them unable to mount as effective a defense as the more affluent citizens. And that puts them in a similar situation to the "go after the little guy first" model in the previous post.
Re:This will probably get tossed out in court. (Score:4, Insightful)
How much power is an EULA actually allowed to provide? If I pay to participate in something, and during my participation I acquire some item of worth, what restraints are there on the overseeing entity telling me what I can and can't do with my acquisition?
Bear in mind that your items of worth are merely records in Mythic's servers. In the absence of any agreement to the contrary, they would have every right to alter their records to show that you have no gold. Since the only thing preventing them from doing this is the agreement you made when you started paying for it, if said agreement disallows the sale of in-game items, that is absolutely enforceable.
What usually gets people riled up about EULAs is when they prohibit something that would be allowed in the absence of an agreement to the contrary, such as reverse engineering software. You can complain that the EULA is void because you never agreed to it, and that you therefore have the right to reverse engineer some piece of software. If you complain to Mythic that you never agreed to their Terms of Use/EULA/whatever, they can simply delete your account. What are you going to do, sue them for breaching the contract you argue doesn't exist?
Hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
Mythic just needs to exert the power they control over supply and demand.
Re:Sad lives (Score:3, Insightful)
Other unhealthy things people do, cramped up inside:
Read slashdot
Coin collecting
Stamp collecting
Watching TV
Reading books
Constructing models
Building home furniture out of Lego Brand Building Blocks (or Legos as they're commonly known)
Tweaking another 33MHz out of a CPU
In short, just about everything. So everyone should get up off their butts and go out and live life to it's fullest, teeth bared and snarling, or they're not doing a thing for themselves, society or the economy.
But, come to think of it, maybe they are doing something... Imagine the impact on the environment of tens or hundreds of thousands more people out and about, doing constructive things, I'm not sure it could take it. Maybe you should join the likes of Mike Vendeman, the one who trolls rec.bicycles.*, and drive people to do things or follow beliefs you value.
This was not intended to flame, but to underscore the differences in values and perception of others use of their time. I'm prone to it myself on occasion, but in a lucid moment recall I have my own hobbies and obsessions and wouldn't care to hear anyone sit in judgement on them.
This is what is going to happen (Score:2, Insightful)
Proud heritage of MUD suckage. (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't matter what they call the bunnies, or how fearsome they make them look, you still have this situation where 99% of the creatures could squash you like a bug.
This may work fine for a single-player RPG, because you're the center of attention all the way along, and not exposed to the stronger creatures, but in a MOG, your pathetic weakness is rubbed in your face by the relative strength of other players. This is escapism?
It seems that these games would be a lot more fun without the grind of the stats-building process, but that's also a lot harder and more expensive to make (they won't be leveling, they won't be farming items, what will they be doing? there can't be enough earth-shaking heroic quests to go around...). Also, the stats-building process does have an addictive quality that keeps people playing even when they're not having fun (camping, anyone?). It makes economic sense.
It's bad for the game on the whole, but it makes sense for the people buying. Building up your character from a puny noob just isn't the fun part.
Re:Not a good analogy (Score:2, Insightful)
Not necessarily. At least in the two states in which I've rented (Oklahoma and Colorado), if you sign a lease you're stuck with it. If the lease doesn't have an escape clause, then you can't get out unless the lessor fails in some statutory duty-failing to keep the property in reasonably good repair, failing to keep the water running, etc.
What's wrong with selling... (Score:3, Insightful)
Face it, the majority of people with cash do not play EQ or DAOC 24/7... they would if they could, but they have jobs and cannot. On the other hand, they will tend to take longer to "finish" the game, and may offer a higher longevity of play (at $xx per month).
So, you've got a choice. Focus (what's sold as) a long-term game on 4-month-life players, or focus on people who may play it for up to a year or more... at $xx per month, both cases. Not exactly tough guess which one you'd pick.
The problem with selling items is it promotes farming. We all remember "EverCamp"... people waiting IN LINE to go kill a freakin mob. I've seen entire zones camped, by people who stayed there for weeks on end - long after the kills or item drops did anything for them, they simply exploited their high status to get items they'd sell for cash. And in doing so, they made it impossible for legitimate players to get and use.
Farmers certainly piss off the casual, 4-hour-per-night player. Especially if there's a "waiting list" over 8 hours long, and big time if the farming causes an item unavailability. Real-cash sales of in-game items, if the game does not have anti-farm tactics, alienates game customers like crazy... because of the farming it causes, no other reason.
I don't think the game vendor has legal right to prohibit such sales, however... such item transactions within the scope of a "game service" would simply be considered value-add. Their remedies are strictly limited to coding.
Character sales, otoh, can be prohibited. The game is marketed as a service, and services usually cannot be transferred. After all, go sell your catv service to your neighbor some day. Or, your Triple-A auto-service. Or the extended warranty on your car. You can't sell your health insurance coverage, and you can't arbitrarily sell your mortgage. It just doesn't work... the agreements (contracts) are with you, period. Most times, the ability to sell a vendor's service to someone else generally requires a franchise agreement. And, no vendor is required to GIVE such agreements to anyone... nor should they be. You can't just open up a store and start re-selling Verizon Wireless, you can't decide to re-selling new (or used) AOL accounts... you need to get their permission. After all, they are the one entering into contract with the customer, and God Help Us All of you think you have implicit proxy authority just because you know them.
You can, by law, sell or transfer the game license and media that was purchased in the store. You cannot arbitrarily sell or transfer the account used to play it, nor should you be able to.
even if it is (Score:5, Insightful)
Bunny Killers (Score:2, Insightful)
Going after Mythic vs Sony (Score:2, Insightful)
MMMmm.. Wand of Precedence +7
5 dollah!
Re:read the TOS (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless, of course, the terms are unfair or unlawful. If they decided to make indentured servitude a requirement for gameplay, would it stand? Of course not. The only question being asked is how many restrictions the game companies can lawfully impose on the real world.
- Havok -
But it's duckable.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the copyright argument is rather vague, too, especially for selling characters. It would be entirely reasonable to argue that the series of actions that a player chooses for their character to take in the game is the PLAYER's copyright, which is tangibly fixed in the character's logs and present statistics. Also, it is not clear if the sale of the server owner's intellectual property is an issue because after all the server owner does not lose it as a result of the sale (it is still on the server)
But, at the end of the day, it really just shows that 90% of MMORPGs stink at the moment. Playing them is not fun; the only fun is in the reward you get for enduring the boring stuff for a while. Allegiance and Shattered Galaxy were quite playable, but every other MMORPG I've played has sucked rocks.
Re:You have to look at it from both sides. (Score:3, Insightful)
Pish tosh. You wouldn't have paid that money up front because you had no big time investment in the game, and you won't pay it now because you've already put in the time investment so you don't have to buy a character.
Here's the one clear message that EQ can take from your confused statement. You gave them your money for seven months, and you have another $600 to spend on Everquest. Sure, it might be broken, but it's good enough to get and keep you hooked.
Re:A bigger problem could arise from (Score:3, Insightful)
The lawsuit problem aside, the real problem is just item farming. When I played EQ I was on The Rathe. Now right as I joined, Verant had to disband a guild (and ban many of the members) for excessive lamness. They basically camped all the spawns of good stuff all the time, controlled it all, and you had to pay them real money if you wanted any of it. This rather made people angry. Now for those that would argue that they should be allowed to do this:
1) It ruined a lot of the fun of the game for other people. The point of games, is after all, to have fun.
2) It was in Verant's best intrest to can them, as it was making other paying customers (lots of them) mad. IF you don't keep your customers happy, they will vote with their dollars.
3) Service providers have a right to decide what is acceptable usage of their service (unless they are regulated like Telcos, in which case the government decides) and deny people access if they aren't using it in an acceptable manner.
I think that there are really two main reasons game companies don't want people selling stuff. The farming is one. It really ruins the game for the other players. The other biggie is they want people to spend time playing the game. IF you buy an account at the highest level and lots of good items, you're gonna get bored and stop paying faster than someone who has worked their way up. The companies are, afterall, in this to make money.