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Games Entertainment

Beginnings Of The Metaverse For The Gaming World 153

Posted by timothy from the meet-interesting-people-don't-kill-them dept.
narq writes "From the world of Counter-Strike comes an interactive 3D environment for online interactions. Users will be able to accomplish productive goals or just waste time. I can't wait for the sword fighting algorithms to start to take shape. Here is the post at Counter-Server."
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Beginnings Of The Metaverse For The Gaming World More

Beginnings Of The Metaverse For The Gaming World

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  • Yes, I've finally found the solution to my fear of people! I can now interact in a fully 3D world without having to get rid of my security keyboard! This is actually kind of cool. If you chat and waste time a lot. I wonder what cybersex extensions they will put in. (eeks?)

  • Well, this isn't new... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Glowing Fish ( 155236 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @02:33AM (#4091699) Homepage

    Well, this isn't new, but it is great that someone is finally actually doing it. I hope I don't offend gamers, but I think there are some places where discussions more fruitful then just about games. I think e2 [everything2.com] would certainly benefit from having a 3-D city to interact in.

    • Is it or isn't it? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mike_sucks ( 55259 )
      Didn't you just effectively say: "Foo already exists, but I'm glad someone just made foo"?

      Anyway, let's assume foo does indeed already exist in one or more forms. Got any links to them? I'd be interested in checking the alternatives out.

      cheers, /mike

      • Habbo Hotel [habbohotel.com] seems VERY similar.

        -9mm-

      • Activeworlds is the only one I know of. "> It's even free [activeworlds.com] if you just want to walk around. Being able to build your own stuff costs 20 dollars a year, and I'd say it's worth it (although I haven't visited since 1999... all my stuff is still built though :).

        Hosting your own world is almost prohibitively expensive, although I doubt anyone would want to bother, unless you REALLY want to build an entire world. The main world thing you start on is big enough for all your building desires.

        Lordfly

        • I tried it and after much tweaking, reinstalling of drivers, etc. got to float around a blue world with black triangles in it. Not what I'd call an 'interactive experience' :-) Oh, and the only people on it (all 5 of them) seem to be a bunch of lamers shouting 'f... you' constantly.

          I don't think we're *quite* at William Gibson level yet :-)

      • Anyway, let's assume [virtual reality online chat] does indeed already exist in one or more forms. Got any links to them?

        Here's a list [google.com]

  • Sweet... (Score:2, Funny)

    by b0r0din ( 304712 )
    Now all I need is a fibre optic network at home and a nuclear bomb wired to my brainwaves and I'm all set.
  • This is just Like it
  • One way of looking at this is a beginning to blur the lines between fps games and massively multiplayer games. That distinction is already being blurred a little with upgoming games such as Planetside, but it looks like the key distinction in the future will go from whether this is a massively multiplayer game or not and instead be whether it is a persistent server based game or whether it is a non-persistent client based game.
    • Actually, I more took the summary to mean that it was blurring the lines between what's a game and what's not. Yeah, it's used mainly by CS players and stuff, and uses the same engine, but it's not technically a game. It's more of a 'chat' program than anything else.
      • It doesn't even use the same engine; it uses a Plugin that nobody uses by Adobe.

        Now if they made it using the Half-Life engine, that would warrant a /. posting... as it is right now, I fail to be impressed.

        Lordfly
      • Yes, but a lot of what your do in a mmorpg IS planning and discussing and socializing and what you might describe as 'chatroom stuff' and then put together your team and go off to take on some objective.

        In some of the more recent mmorpg game designs (Anarchy Online, the upcoming City of Heroes, the currently shelved Lost Continents, etc) you actually go from doing your planning and assembling in the 'open zones' into 'private' or 'mission' zones where just those on your team can be. Conceptually that is very similar to what you wind up here by making what used to be the 'game lobby' be withing the game as well.

  • LEts have our monthly corporate board meetings

    Virtual court rooms

    developer meetings

    AGMs
  • "...Any CS player con join and converse, check out the Desert Eagle (Saloon) or visit Me and the rest of the reviewers in our building"

    Not to mention that you will be able to get help with your spelling and grammer skills as well. ^^

  • Ummm... so what? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DarkZero ( 516460 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @02:41AM (#4091716)
    It's just Adobe's 3D chat program, Atmosphere, with a Counter-Strike theme. Am I missing some part of this that makes it important, interesting, or even vaguely original.
    • Yeah I tried it, in other words this sucks!

  • Productive Goals? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by StefanJ ( 88986 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @02:43AM (#4091717) Homepage Journal
    Users will be able to accomplish productive goals or just waste time.

    So does this environment, like, allow you to use your avatars to run machine tools, or steer a riding mower, or use some kind of houshold waldo that will let you clean the toilet or chop vegetables?

    And since it will be in 3D, your productivity (or non-productivity) will be dramatically increased because . . . ah . . . um.

    3D! Whooo!

    • How about a "metaverse" system that drives X-10 devices in areas viewed by webcams? Then you can use your computer
      . to log onto another computer
      . . to telnet back into your other computer (or process)
      . . . to drive a device(machine tool, mower, etc.) in the room next door.

      And somebody will probably even find a way to charge for it.

      Yep. It's the future and I LIKE IT!

  • Definitely Cool (Score:3, Interesting)

    by raiyu ( 573147 ) <raiyu.raiyu@com> on Sunday August 18, 2002 @02:44AM (#4091722) Homepage
    This is definitely a cool idea, and its just another step towards William Gibson's view of the future web (read Idoru). Its definitely more fun to actually traverse a DustCity instead of forum categories, and it certainly does better to make your online conversations more interesting.

    I think it would be interesting if someone setup an open source project/community for a similar deal. Have everyone build up their own identities, instead of just being limited to nicks you can finally have 3d physical representations of yourself. But I guess that would be moving towards the idea of a virtual city, but then again that would definitely be interesting.

    Would also be fun to see how people would hack such a project.

    • Re:Definitely Cool (Score:2, Informative)

      by Issue9mm ( 97360 )
      Well, to my knowledge, it isn't open source, but Habbo Hotel [habbohotel.com] is pretty close to what you're describing. It's free to anyone that wishes to use it, but actually buying stuff costs money.

      It's oddly addictive, especially if you've got a bunch of friends that are also users.

      -9mm-

      • Seems to be broken at the moment... it wouldn't let me create a new user. It also slowed down my 1.4gig athlon to a crawl... I'd hate to have to use it on anything slower.
    • While I could wax about how the actual inspiration meets the NEUROMANCER vision better than the software in the topic, theres other things I could do.

      Like point out that I saw a trailer for a movie that was really influenced by Idoru. Remember, Idoru was about the star of Lo-Res marrying a digital being. A synthetic star. And marginally about the stratifcation between north and south California. Its pretty much a california centric book, focusing on north vs south and the bridge people, the economy of celebrity, and the economic impact of accelerated construction. Not much virtual reality for ya. Anyways, the movie is called Simone. Its about the creation of a virtual star. But gone is the almost transcendently gay theme of a Simo-Celtic rock band star marrying a virtual being because its the indie thing to do, replaced with just straight out sex (although in retrospect, conception with Idoru would be quite difficult) and showmanship, reminiscient of Macross Plus's theme.

      Basically, this idea is stupid, and so are you. CounterStrike presents a more compelling virtual reality than DustCity and you seem to have confused your gibson books. I hope I have been thouroughly caustic.
      • Its nice how you write it like a book report, perhaps you missed the whole Chia talking with her friends in a VR world bit that introduces her to the reader. But I guess a better example would be WALLED CITY.

        And certainly an online version of Walled city would be quite an interesting project. So I guess you should go re-read Idoru and stop being such a jackass ^_^
        • I read a lot of gibson books one summer and they all sorta ran together. I guess I thought the walled city was a Virtual Light concept or something. D'oh.
      • Umm, wasn't the economic stratification/Northern-vs-Southern Cal stuff more _Virtual Light_? And although it wasn't much of a plot point, Idoru did include some Internet-as-VR-chat-room stuff (ie the Walled City, and what's-her-face's VR-chatting with the Lo-Rez fan club). Mind you, saying that about a Gibson (or other cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk/whatever) book is like saying "That Heinlein book had some spaceship stuff in it," where "That Heinlein book" != _Glory_Road_.

        As far as Dust City vs CounterStrike goes, I'd have to question whether an action game, no matter how detailed, could be considered a "virtual world." The contents of a game level, after all, exist only in relation to the game and whether or not the're useful to the player in winning the game. Mind you, I haven't played CounterStrike (or any other game modern enough to require a 3d vid card), so I may be making unwarranted assumptions. But the shooter game as virtual reality thing has sort of annoyed me ever since the Doom days.

        Thought here: We've had the tech to build a non-goal-based, non-game-like virtual world of sorts ever since Quake. So why hasn't one been built and taken the world by storm a la the Web in the late 90's? Why am I typing this into a 2d text box rather than into the mouth of some snazzed-out avatar in a VRML scene? Maybe it's the lack of a killer app. Or maybe EverCrack et al is the killer app and I'm just full of shit. Who knows?
        • I think the ultimate would be a FPS which isn't always a 'shooter' game.

          I mean, killing people is cool and all but entering a village and hanging with people, maybe making friends, teams, enemies would be cool too.

          Quake is GPL'd so basically anyone could do it, and it would run on every machine made after the Pentium I.

          Next time you get flamed on Slashdot, you invite that sucka' to take it out front and dual!

        • Why have virtual reality communities largely failed? Because people need a compelling reason to drop face to face communication for another form. A virtual reality while sounding cool to some technophiles, doesn't do much for the most of the people out there. What exactly about a 2d representation of a 3d avatar who does a horrible job of lip synching your text appeals to people over just the text? Communities aren't something that you can really design from the ground up, they're something that grows out of something smaller. Halflife is a really big example. CounterStrike in particular. Its a good enough game to motivate people to talk about it and make connnections between players. People form clans, etc. Recently voice chat has been added which has really improved leadership and team performance. Its slowly growing out of the game that was released so long ago. There are even small projects going on to create a meta game of sorts, a sort of mercenary system in which you gain reputation by playing which bars you from playing on lower servers and ruining the game.

          Remember, the walled city started as a filter turned inside out, and grew from there. Its a hodge podge collection of toys, not exactly a mainstream communication device. The city itself is stored in various member's houses and supported by the members. I don't think your local realtor will put up and maintain a computer to host an online office of some virtual reality. The closests and perhaps most influential technology on the idea behind the walled city would be IRC. While in itself, the various implementations have archaic interfaces, simple techophobia is less than enough to foster such an elite community, as evidenced by the nearly crushing popularity of EFnet and DALnet. Instead, consider more obscure and private IRC servers, with explicit connection permissions.

          You haven't found your virtual realities because you're looking for the wrong things. There is a difference betwen visual and virtual. The reason nobody bought into the realtime rendered virtual reality is because people like you don't have the hardware, and many people, yourself possibly included, wouldn't like the result. Virtual shopping malls. There's no room for virtual coffee houses with poetry hours, unless you want to pay a cover charge to experience a shade less of reality. You may be onto something, as many mmorpgs were simply about sitting on pillows and talking to other people with text messages. The fundamental hasn't changed much: text messaging is the standard and dressing it up doesn't help much.
  • once we can get good 100Mbits, cosistent to my door,
    we'll speak then. Think of it that way, tiny urbanterror levels are around 5 - 50MB. And they are not that detailed. Nevermind interfaces, if downloading takes > 2 min., I would be torturous. See you, when I can have bandwidth at 0.02c / 100G, at 100Mbits/s to my home.
    There is alot of dark fiber here, in vancouver, but my guess would be that most places in north america would be luck to have 10mbit consistent everywhere.
    It is still far far away. Dream on slashdotters.
    p.
    • Were trying, you might want to move to Jacksonville, Fl in the next 5 years ;)

      Jaysyn
    • And you can speak to me when you learn how to write sentences! Maybe your problem is that you can't effectively communicate your ideas. You jumble your words together so it's hard to understand you. ;)

      "See you, when I can have bandwidth at 0.02c / 100G, at 100Mbits/s to my home."

      What is that supposed to mean? Maybe you should stop using your 56k modem and take some grammer and writing classes and then try again.
  • Let's keep in mind that this is the event of some realizm gamers finding Adobe Atmosphere [adobe.com] and remaking their favorite maps. Don't start expecting innovation from a scene that has set gaming back years, and is singularly responsible for my not playing Team Fortress 2 right now.
    • Dude, *what* are you talking about? "set gaming back years" my ass! No doubt you would rather have us play some goofy side-scroller game with wizards and dragons and crap. Probably you just got your noob ass shanked on HomeLAN by some 12-year old, and you never got over it! Seriously, I've played lots of games, and I continue to buy new ones as they come out - and nothing, I repeat *NOTHING* comes close to Counter-Strike for sheer fun and mayhem. CS has the best gameplay period, probably because it was (originally) designed by real gamers, not "marchitected" by lame suits. The only bad thing about CS is that it is so popular that all the cheat-programmers flock to it. Maybe when Doom III comes out and people start making mods for it, CS will fade, but it hasn't happened yet. Check out the GameSpy server stats - CS rules. Out.
    • Actually, probably the fact that TF2 has not yet been released is the main reason you're not playing it.
  • Will I be able to sell my furniture for bobba [bbc.co.uk]?

  • Um... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lordfly ( 590616 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @02:55AM (#4091744) Journal

    How is this relevant at all?

    Don't want to be flamebait here or anything, but really... this stuff has been going on for years. Like Activeworlds [activeworlds.com] has been doing since like 1997. You can even build your own stuff (landscaping, buildings, even entire cities -- I did so when I was 14) in real-time. Sure, you can't shoot people in the face, but do you really want to all the time?

    I suppose this is News For Nerds because Counter-strike is l33t or something. Frankly, I wouldn't want to chat with most of the CS community... I might get accused of cheating using a Chatbot :)

    But seriously, this has been around for years. I fail to see why this is important. Must be a slow news day.

    Lordfly

    • Re:Um... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Alrescha ( 50745 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @09:14AM (#4092243)
      "Don't want to be flamebait here or anything, but really... this stuff has been going on for years. Like Activeworlds"

      Unfortunately, the ActiveWorlds of today is almost indistinguishable from the ActiveWorlds of 1997. My available bandwidth has improved, and the resolution of my screen is greater, but that is about all that has changed for the better.

      There is a world within the ActiveWorlds domain modelled after SnowCrash. It even has the Black Sun. It's also empty and dead. Depressing, even.

      I *want* the Metaverse... It's not here yet.

      A.

      ps: For another interesting view of computer-enhanced environment, I recommend reading Vernor Vinge's novella "Fast Times at Fairmont High". It's available for free (registration required) download at:

      http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook4380.htm

  • One word: (Score:3, Funny)

    by tuxedo-steve ( 33545 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @02:59AM (#4091753)
    Cybersex. Sod the sword fighting algorithms. :)
  • I'm going to be extremely creaped out if it turns out our interconnected 3D world started from counter strike. Though eventually we will have one. An interconnected 3D world where people can either accomplish goals or socialize. We already have it in everquest but at some point a world not more universally appieling and most likely cheaper will emerge.
    • Oh yes! Everyone who plays Everquest (I don't) pays a monthly fee to walk around and socialize! heh...you Evercrack ppl crack me up.

      But seriously, Active World has been doing this for years. The real roadblocks are bandwidth, a universal standard for 3dworlds, and adoption.

  • So, remind me, why should I think that this matters? Adobe Atmosphere has been around for ages, and has yet to impress me, or release in anything other than winderz, for that matter. Seems to me that if someone wanted to bother, it wouldn't be hard to create a much, much better online metaverse using, say, the quake engine. Atmosphere is primitive compared to its fps counterpoints.

  • Cheating (Score:3, Funny)

    by dokutake ( 587467 ) <peter@noSpaM.epiccentre.com> on Sunday August 18, 2002 @03:13AM (#4091775)
    I'm not sure what you could possibly cheat at with this, but I'm sure someone will do it. And they will ruin it for everyone somehow.
    • WALLHAx0Rz!
      with the OGC wallhax i can see through your walls and point the aimbot at bOObzOrz! wallhax your shirt! wallhax your pants! MUAHAHAHA! ALL YOUR BOOBZORZ R BELONG TO -ME-.

      oh.
      wait. /set wallhax on
      you're a guy? /aimbot nexttargetpls
      WAIT.
      YOU'RE ALL GUYS?

      O, I WILL NEVER CHEAT AGAIN! O, CHEATING HAS BROUGHT ME UNTOLD MISERY! I HAVE RUINED THE METAVERSE FOR MYSELF WITH THESE HAX! I RENOUNCE CHEATING AND EMBRACE IGNORANCE!

      FOR GREAT BOOBIES!

  • about 3 years ago...and 5 years ago...and every night when i was 5 years old before i went to bed
  • And while you have this snazzy sword fighting algorithim taking place ala SnowCrash [barnesandnoble.com], just what are you going to use to control it? A joystick? Mouse? Or joy-of-all-joys: a Linux driven Nintendo Power Glove [slashdot.org]... (On a side note, I just hate using the slashdot search engine. Using the words "Linux" and "Nintendo" yielded my target 13 links down... And how many of those other links had anything to do with, or even the word Nintendo in their title? None.)

  • Come on, guys! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by megaduck ( 250895 ) <dvarvel AT hotmail DOT com> on Sunday August 18, 2002 @03:56AM (#4091850) Journal

    Most of the comments posted so far seem to be of the Counterstrike sux/Atmosphere sux/etc. variety. Where's the imagination? The interesting thing about DustCity is not the implementation, it's the idea. News about a persistent CounterStrike-themed world is a good jumping off point for discussions about other possible implementations and 3D worlds in general. Why are we so quick to say "It sucks." or "It will never work."? Are we really that pessimistic?

    If you don't like DustCity, talk about CrystalSpace. Talk about WorldForge. Talk about extending the Quake III engine to have similar functionality (and better graphics). There's plenty of interesting work going on in persistent 3D worlds. Why doesn't this article provoke that kind of discussion?

    • Re:Come on, guys! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by herrd0kt0r ( 585718 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @04:23AM (#4091902)
      this article doesn't provoke the kind of discussion you talk about because we're all skeptics.

      remember HABITAT for the commodore 64? for quantumlink (now AOL), it was a persistent, customizable world. nice graphics for the time, great concept. it was turned into Club Caribe and launched with much fanfare. what have we learned from this foray into persistent online worlds? people want to collect tokens to buy stuff. like new heads. and they want to have sex online.

      how bout ultimate online? people want the same thing. everquest? dark age of camelot? name it-- it's the same. everyone wants power, fame, money, and sex.

      sure, you could launch yourself at more humble pursuits, but you'd be squashed out by the powergamers. even this would be turned into a game: have a nicest place, own the nicest stuff. or be the coolest.

      people in _snow crash_ liked the metaverse because if afforded them the opportunity to be something they're not. it allowed them to be somewhere else. but even when they were able to go beyond the world around them and into another, they were still limited by real-world contraints: if you couldn't afford the right stuff, you looked like poop in the metaverse.

      i guess what i'm trying to say is that the current mindset, and the current subset of the population who would engage themselves in this particular world, will probably just turn into the same crap the other game worlds have turned into. let me repeat that i think that this one _will_ be turned into a game by its players.

      does this mean it shouldn't be done? no. with time and good feeding, it might normalize and develop a population of users who can actually enjoy every aspect of the world.
      • Well our world is almost as shitty as the world in Snow Crash, so you can't really blame the population for wanting to escape to a different world where people aren't killing each other all the time ;)
      • they were still limited by real-world contraints: if you couldn't afford the right stuff, you looked like poop in the metaverse

        Don't put down my hardware just because I chose Mr. Hankey as my avatar.

      • I knew the creators of Habitat, Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar, back when they did it. That thing was AOL's (then QLink's) mainstream product at one point. This despite running on a Commodore 64 (!) over a 300 baud modem. (The server end was Prime minicomputers.) There was a Japanese version, seldom seen in the US, with a bigger world and about 20,000 users.

        Clearly the thing was severely hardware-limited. But the idea seemed sound, and it scaled up well. Gradually, the hardware got better, the software got better, and by the days of VRML 97, things pretty much worked in 3D. Yet nobody cared. Surfing the web had come along, and that was more useful and more fun.

        VRML is little-used today. Almost all the VRML companies have tanked. But with a broadband connection and a modern graphics card, it works very well. But the support infrastructure is dead.

    • Unless the world has a game element, it will not be used. Why? Because IRC/IM systems are far more flexible.

      When we enter a communication area, we prefer to use it to eliminate spatial boundaries which impede communication in "meatspace". If the spatial boundaries are present, there had better be a damn good reason (such as "it's good to be far away from people who are trying to shoot me", or "the areas are very pretty and it is challenging to pass through one to get to the rewards of the next", or "I built my own custom area, come and see it.") If the space is purely oriented toward communication and collaborative work, the space must integrate with the purpose of communication (such as a collaborative 3d map builder.)

      Attaching a non-interactive world area to something like a chat room has been tried before ten million times, and no one is interested, as it defeats the purpose of both elements (wastes time walking, and why bother?)
    • The best way to search slashdot is by using site:slashdot.org in google. I havent figured out a way to just search articles and not comments, but it works pretty good.
  • ...we can make those Counter-Strike campers listen to Reason (tm).

  • Quake III (Score:2, Insightful)

    by designBureau ( 592545 )
    I remember when Quake III was in development, they were talking about a similar feature, virtual arenas of players not currently playing.
  • Users will be able to accomplish productive goals or just waste time

    Huh? Why would I want to download a huge program just to make believe I'm at work?

  • Biggest advantage: existing community (Score:3, Informative)

    by Emil Brink ( 69213 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @04:10AM (#4091884) Homepage
    As someone who has spent almost two years working on building, from the ground up, the technology for something similar, but having had to kill the project mainly due to lack of external interest, I think the main advantage of DustCity is the target audience. The Counter-Strike user community seems to be very strong, and of course already centers around creating 3D content. Plus, the idea of integrating clans and giving them the ability to build their own "homes" in DustCity seems obvious, but is hopefully brilliant just as well. Now, if only my home PC was powerful enough to actually do 3D things on... ;^)

    Oh, and for the curious: check out the results of the above-mentioned effort, which was sponsored by one of Sweden's coolest research companies [interactiveinstitute.se], at verse.sf.net [sf.net]. It's all Free Software, using a combination of GPL, LGPL and BSD licenses. Never mind the bitterness of the opening (final) diary entries. ;^)
    • Probably true, yes. Unfortunately, we never felt we had even enough momentuum to motivate us to release binaries... Which possibly was a mistake, of course. If only N people had mailed and bitched that they wanted to try Verse out, but couldn't be bothered to compile it, that might have helped. It's all speculation now, of course. Plus the core architecture of Verse (very client-intensive client/server, requiring many clients to get anything done) makes it a bit involved to just try out, it needs packaging, which we also hardly had the time for... Oh well.
  • So, obviously, this type of metaverse/consistant world/VR/shit isn't anything new. There's been many [google.com] other [thepalace.com] attempts [activeworlds.com] at the same thing [atmoinfopool.com].

    There's even a language (VRML) [web3d.org] for such virtual worlds.

    And on the other hand, there's the oblivious massively multiplayer online RPGs - Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, Everquest..

    However, it seems that they all seem to faltering, or not seeing any substantial growth. Possible reasons?

    Noone else is using it, anyway

    It maneuvers like crap

    There's alternatives much simplier than virtual reality

    Basically, people aren't using it because there's no advantage of doing so. Those that are using it are, from what I've seen, much more social than the typical geek.

    When will we see a world that provides both quality, as well as a reason to stay? Only MMORPGs seem to be providing it today.

    (Then again, I haven't stepped into a chat-oriented world in a few years, so I don't know of any particular trends.. YMMV.)

  • Ideas (Score:1, Interesting)

    by m0rph3us0 ( 549631 )
    I was reading today about Doom 3's new editor being integrated into the engine, and was thinking if you developed a BSP tree server you could assign permissions to nodes on the tree and allow people to infinitely edit spaces they "own". I'm not sure if BSP would allow such a thing. ie. would the BSP tree not put rooms in a building below the cube representing the building itself? But all in all i think BSP would be a good technology for building a real time editable metaverse. If you could break up the tree into multiple files you could put it up on a CVS server that at the end of the night would compile all the changes and update the metaverse.
  • Okay, so after 70+ posts, what have we got?

    Tons of other engines exist.

    CS is based on a really cheesy one (Adobe whatever) and the big other player (Id) won't commit their best tech.

    Script kiddies will mess everything up.

    Previous attempts, from C64 days to now have always failed.

    Navigation sucks.
    Boy, if I didn't know better, I'ld say you're mostly a bunch of losers more interested in off the cuff remarks then in substantive responses. Naw. Couldn't be.

    So, from the top, let's go back to Snow Crash and see what it actually says made the Metaverse succeed. Hmmm.....
    -Close linking with sophisticated and micropayment-friendly commerce engine. Nope.
    -Ability to seamlessly exchange data (such as the virtual business card containing the Snow Crash virus) without breaking the metaphor. Nope.
    -Navigation and motion precisely correlated to actual full body physical motion (think how Hiro practices). Nope.
    -Detailed and nuanced renderings of facial expressions. Nope.
    -Stripped out, bare universe in the beginning, allowing early "settlers" to make their mistakes *years* before newbies are let in. Nope.
    -HUGE telecom company with billions of dollars worth of computers and the power to overthrow governments backing the project (remember who owns the black cube in the desert, folks). Nope.

    Yeah, you're all of you right. This is *exactly* like the metaverse and so proves that such a project will never work. Oh dear; I'm going to go home and cry now.

    Maybe not.

    Doggone, pathetic, defeatist, ignorant, shallow, grumble, mumble, bitch, moan . . . . .

    • i agree totally, i dont even think many ppl got the 'Make CS-cheaters listen to Reason(tm)' joke from a few posts bank, which i thought was pretty funny, but maybe im just a nerd/loser :)

      anyway, neocron is an mmorpg which looks like it could fit the bill of a future 'metaverse' type environment, once it finally is released. they offer the chance to just sit around and do whatever you like. which i know is the same as some of the other online rpgs, but this one is in a fully 3d environment, with real-time interaction (and presumably sword fighting :)) ... but i think you can still abandon all your friends and social events, quit your job, and just spend all your time levelling up before killing yourself. there is an option under the tools -> preferences -> takeresponsibilityforyourownactions menu. or something. either way it has me excited.

      plus, it has a strip club. and its never referred to as the definate article. its always THE dildo, never ... YOUR dildo.

      (note to morons : the fact that i have now described myself as a nerd/loser means i wont actually start crying when you agree with me, so dont waste your time)

  • John Carmack (Score:3, Interesting)

    by javilon ( 99157 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @06:42AM (#4092056) Homepage
    This reminds my of one of the interviews he gave when Quake III was finished.

    From what I recall he said that he was surprised not many people were interested in metaverse type worlds.
    He said that if enough people would be interested he would think about giving it a shot.

    Now this guys are using his code (quake II engine) to try and implement it.

    I bet he will be interested.

    By the way, there are a couple of projects along the same line using the free (LGPL) 3D engine Crystal Space ( crystal.sourceforge.net)

    • Again, this doesn't use anything vaguely Quake-related, other than lifted textures. It uses the Adobe Atmosphere engine, which is woefully underpowered compared to an FPS game.

      Lordfly

  • Ha. (Score:1)

    by masterv ( 173870 )
    Users will be able to accomplish productive goals or just waste time.

    I dispute half that statement.
  • "Users will be able to accomplish productive goals or just waste time."

    What do you think your average gamer would do given those two choices?

  • As far back as I can remember in my clanning days (Q1, AQ2 and CS) we had mappers create conference rooms and training areas for clan use as well as server side code to facilitate better communication and a whole bunch of 3133t kicking/banning routines for additional policing and/or entertainment value. I'm positive that others were doing it at the same time as well. How is this any different?
  • meeting people in a fake 3d RPG world is exciting....

    Tom
  • ok ok this sounds cool and all but CS is the last thing that needs this element in it. I use to play CS. I stress the "USE TO" part. Everyone knows that cheating/hacking/8 year olds playing on daddies computer are the bulk of the CS community now. You cant find a player that has the default configuration anymore. There is always some semi legal script that helps them shot or run or something. And now the CS world gets this psuedo - MMPORPG feel thing to it. How long till this gets hacked in some fashion so that people can start spraypainting porn on the city walls or something lame like that. Granted CS was one of the most popular mods ever created and its insanely fun to play but its become a realm of script kiddies and lamers. Are these really the type of people you want talk to in your spare time?
  • I just sat down and used the Atmosphere Player for a while. It seems to add no functionality to the classic text-based chat room model because there is no cohesion between the GUI and the text-based chat box.

    For example, you can see everybody wandering around, but can't tell who is who. Unless somebody explicitly does the moon walk and says "Look, I'm the guy in the T-shirt doing the moon walk", then you can't relate the text-based user names to the GUI. But then there are probably 2 other guys in T-shirts doing the moonwalk at the same time.

    The most exciting point the Adobe help files state [adobe.com] is: "Users that are exploring the same world can see representations of each other called avatars, and converse with one another by typing messages in a chat window."

    Get it? ... "typing messages in a chat window" -- which can be done without the GUI.

    The fun GUI stuff to do (even though it doesn't relate to chatting is): learn to jump, jump off the edge of the map, learn to do the moonwalk, tell other people how to jump and do the moonwalk. And of course the non-fun stuff also doesn't relate to the chat.

    By the time you're finished playing with the 3D GUI you have not said anything meaningful at all ... thus, anti-chatroom technology at its best.
    But get people into a meaningful conversation, and they will ignore the GUI altogether.

    It seems to be useless technology right now -- hopefully Adobe will create some linkage between the chat and GUI. Or maybe in the same vein, they should throw together a chat box and a screen-magnifier utility. That would go over just as well in its current incarnation.

  • Is 3D the key? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by si1k ( 38767 ) on Sunday August 18, 2002 @11:53AM (#4092668) Homepage
    A lot of comments about metaverse-like worlds seem to center around the 3D engine and the quality of the graphics. But is that really the crucial aspect of the metaverse that we find appealing?

    One of the most fascinating parts of the metaverse was the way it offered an interactive version of the Internet under a single paradigm. Instead of having the wide range of protocols like HTTP and IRC offering a limited range of interactivity and services, it was all integrated. With the Net right now we can find interesting flat (or semi-interactive) documents on the web, we can play interactive games, or we can engage in primarily useless chatter on IRC.

    The metaverse in principle combined all of these principles into a single paradigm. You could go to a library and while reading a reference book, you could engage in mindless chatter (or interesting discussion) within the context of the library.

    I think that's a big key--keeping the context. That's what makes blogs with discussion areas (like slashdot) so interesting--we can discuss over the context of the article. But we really need an overlying metaphor, like the metaverse had, for unifying all the information, services, and forms of interaction.

    3D is not the key. It's just the glossy exterior that could bring such a paradigm to the next level IF such a paradigm really existed.

    If you're interested in that kind of thing... get in touch with me via msg on /.
  • After pursuing many of the links mentioned in the comments sections for legacy 3D communities, I was disappointed to discover that almost all of them only worked on Windows. Aren't there any cool Linux accessible 3D communities?
  • [Tk]Assassin: WHERE ARE YOU!! STOP CAMPING and COME OUT

    |AMG|n00b-killa: Hold on, almost done...washroom near bomb site B...
  • ...wait for the sword fighting algorithms to start to take shape.

    That's exactly why nothing "useful" will come of this. The only people who have any interest whatsoever in immersive 3D worlds are gamers. End of story.

    Where are all those corporate giants throwing down the big bucks so they can have virtual conferences? Where are the calls for a new version of VRML from the business community?

    As interesting as the technology is, and as cool as Gibson's early stuff was, it's basically a geek toy. It'll wind its way into the collective culture after a while - look at the success of EverSmack and its ilk. 3D visualization tools are already entrenched in many techology-driven business sectors. But will immersive worlds ever become the great tool of commerce that sci-fi has envisioned for over 20 years now?

    No. Because in the real world, people matter more than pixels. Commerce is still handled primarily through face-to-face introductions, through lunch meetings and discussions about the baseball strike and the weather and vacations and family and all those other little details that actually make up life.

    • Because in the real world, people matter more than pixels.

      hate to be anal, but you spelt the word 'money' wrong, there isnt even a single 'p' in it last time i checked, let alone the two you put in your warped spelling of it.

      i agree with your theory in general, but mark my words, if this type of thing does ever get up and running, some fucker will want to buy space for advertising in it ... "John Anderton, interested in long distance savings?"

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