A 1974 Review of D&D 404
CleverNickName writes "Boing Boing pointed me to this 1974 review of the 'new' Dungeons and Dragons game. Some highlights: D&D was subtitled 'Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargams Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures.' The reviewer concludes, 'In general, the concept and imagination involved is stunning. However, much more work, refinement, and especially regulation and simplification is necessary before the game is managable.'"
I have no D&D experience... (Score:4, Interesting)
Still, I did collect a large number of AD&D cards, though I lost those after some water damage.
I've played Baldur's Gate, and it's pretty decent, but how much better is an actual D&D game?
And old D&D book got me into RPG video games (Score:5, Interesting)
It was a cool book, a Dungeons and Dragons book. The adults told me that it was bad and made people act out elaborate fantasies and commit violent crimes. So I gave it up before ever actually playing it in the classic sense. But when this game for the Nintendo came out named "Dragon Warrior", I pounced on it. In a way, it a was a video game representation of what I loved about that book. I have since been a avid RPG video game player since.
Very interesting. (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, D&D has come a long way from its roots. I've never played 1st edition, but I played a lot of second, and it in comparison to 3rd, it feels at the same time far too limiting and overly complicated. I was surprised how much they managed to simultaneously simplify the game and allow for so many more options.
Out of curiosity, those of you who have played all three and a half revisions of D&D, which one did you like the most?
Printing D&D (Score:5, Interesting)
My father's family ran a small printing business in Twin Lakes, WI (not too far from Lake Geneva). Back in the early 70's, these two guys from a small company came to my dad needing booklets to be printed for a new game. He and his brother decided against taking the risk of doing this large job and turned them down. It turns out that they were from TSR, trying to get D&D printed. Doh!
believe it or not (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not more regulation, less regulation (Score:4, Interesting)
When you stick with the rules you end the session knowing deep down inside that it was some delicious mix of skill and luck that lead you to success, not some desire on behalf of the DM to make it all more dramatic.
A skilled DM works with the rules, not around them.
World creation fun (Score:3, Interesting)
I do find that world creation is the most satisfying part of gaming. Too bad there's not enough time to play through all the stuff I've created, even if I could find in the boxes in the attic.
Re:Ah the good old days (Score:5, Interesting)
You cannot use about 75% of the spells,
and god forbid the combinations
They are too abstract to emulate in a PC game
Best example is a "Wish" spell, mostly the
PC games are all heal, damage, or enhance
There were alot of creationist spells in the
pencil and paper game
Then there is all the subtlety of playing a
thief, or even subdual combat
The intrigue, and deception, and mystery, and
owning of property, building your castle,
town , fortress, etc etc
Building a fleet of ships on the grander scale,
or the low level beginenrs using small sacks
of flour to see the invisible monsters
So many subtle nuances not available in the
world of the PC . Some I have not even listed
out of the cob webs of my mind and they are
long forgotten
I have been with Ad&d since 1978, not much
of lately but I miss it dearly and have
seriously considered getting back with some
old school gamers and doing some good
old quality gaming on a epic scale similar
to Tolkien, Robert Jordan, or Stephen Donaldson.
The good ol' days, hehehe
Peace,
Ex-MislTech
My poor memory (Score:5, Interesting)
I made my mother sit down and play it with me (she hated it). I found some friends at school and convinced them to play, but no one could really get the hang of it. I wasn't any kind of DM, either.
It took about another two years of me trying to find people to play begore I hit the jackpot, and by the time I gave it up at 17 years old, I had amassed 30 different boxed set games, all of whigh I donated to the gaming club of my university when I went.
I recently found some interest in playing again, and happened across a Open Documentation license game, here [slashdot.org]
If anyone can tell me what kind of edition that blue box was (D&D, not AD&D), I would appreciate it.
Re:Did anybody actually (Score:1, Interesting)
We actually looked for a cheaper way to
get them, and we made our own molds,
and used Chem Lab Bunsen burners or
Alcohol burners to melt the lead and then
pour into molds we made
Then ppl that were the better painters
amongst us would paint them
Some ppl would spend an entire day or weekend,
painting one figurine
Others would crank an army in a weekend
Lead figures were purely optional, but it
made it easier to tell who was in range
when a "Fireball" went off at 33,000 cu. ft
of loving .
I can't say how many times players have
"singed" themselves with their own fireballs
in cramped spaces
I have to admit most of the games I have
run were without lead figures, and then
they became banned and pewter is all you
could get due to lead poisoning
Ppl still make them underground though
just not sold commercially as far as I know
Ex-MislTech
Ahhh Memories (Score:5, Interesting)
We'll be married 15 years this summer. I still see the friend that introduced us all the time (we're God Parents to each others children)
D&D brings back memories
Figures were half the fun! (Score:3, Interesting)
For us, the selection, painting, and use of figures was an integral part of the gaming experience. The "dumb figurines" when combined with the battlemats made by Berkeley Games added a lot. They were particularly handy in instances where players had an imperfect mental picture: "My Aldryami Rune Lord *can* duck around the corner, get off a shot with his wonder bow, and duck back before the broos see him!"
I guess my biases as a game master (or DM, if you prefer the TSR-centric term ;-) are revealed.
In my day, Radeon 9000 cards were called FIGURES, and we liked it that way!
My Favorite D & D Story (Score:4, Interesting)
I tried a few things that night, but it was just a few of us against an army. I could never get close to where they were keeping him. The next day dawned and Norbert was carried out to the gallows while I watched from behind a nearby hill. I was going crazy! I couldn't think of anything to do, but I couldn't let them hang my brother! In desperation, as they fitted Norbert's neck into the noose, I notched an arrow into my big composite bow. Mike asked me what I was aiming at and I said "the rope". He laughed and said if I rolled a 01 (out of 100) I would hit the rope. Sure enough I rolled the first number....0. Then the second number came....1!! The arrow pierced the rope just as the trapdoor opened and Norbert fell to the ground trying to figure out why he wasn't dead. I stood, notched another arrow, took aim at the leader of the troops and nonchalantly asked, "Ok, who's next?" Nobody even twitched as Norbert hauled ass up to the hill where we were. We got the hell out of there before they could get their shit back in their socks.
Poor Mike....never did kill those characters off.
good point (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I have no D&D experience... (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes... no
I mean, yes, the GM is pretty damn important, but a good group is what makes the game. A good GM with a bunch of bad players won't have a good time, although the players might. A bunch of good players with a bad GM might have a reasonably good time interacting with each other but as a whole won't have much enjoyment. And a single bad player can make hell for everyone.
The best is to have players and GM that fit together, with about the same level of experience/expertise, and the same tastes. Monty Haul campaigns are fine, as long as everybody loves Monty Haul campaigns. Same goes for munchkins.
And, well, sincerly, the only reason to play D&D 3rd is because it's the best hack'n'slash munchkining game ever. If I want to roleplay, I'll pick Tribe 8 [dp9.com], RoleMaster [ironcrown.com], Shadowrun [shadowrunrpg.com], or an Anime-level Sengoku [sengoku.com] campaign with BESM [guardiansorder.com] rules, any day of the week.
Okay, I'm done whoring :P
technology and storytelling (Score:3, Interesting)
hehehe.
Computers handle the mechanical aspects of "being the referee" so well. but I never really got into these newfangled muds/mmorps the kids like nowadays, because the human referee was so much better at the storytelling component of it.
Maybe the computer allows things to scale a little bit
I guess the referee interface to the world would have to get much better so that they could keep up
-- p
ChainMail (Score:5, Interesting)
"ChainMail" was an earlier set of wargame rules for large scale battles between medieval armies. As I recall, it had a brief appendix covering some add-on rules to allow wizards, orcs, dragons and such like to be added into the battles as a bit of a laugh.
Using the ChainMail rules for purely fantasy warfare became very popular - probably more so than the non-fantasy aspect of the rules. That (I suspect) is the reason that D&D came into being.
The reason the original D&D rules seem confusing is that they assume full knowledge and applicability of the ChainMail rules.
Steve - Chaos/Cleric/Hobbit 19th level - circa 1982.
OK - I'm about geeked out now.
Re:An odd request (Score:2, Interesting)
I can tell you right now that there is nothing any church leader could say that would change this person's mind. I am ordained (in North Carolina, Baptist youth minister), and also posess a MLA in youth psychology. I use role-playing games as a way to get young people with emotional problems such as unfocused anger or resentment, loneliness, and even abuse (well, once, anyway).
My journey though this has been very difficult. I have been "asked" to leave four churches because I view these games as useful and constructive, and not demonic. One former church even tried to revoke my ordination (thankfully, the people who would need to set that in motion at that church were understanding, even if the congregation was not). It has been trying for me at times to see that people I sing next to are going to heaven, and I know that I am going to heaven, but they do not think so.
My point is that nothing can be said. I have learned that the best way to enforce a person's belief system is to argue with them against it. The person you are talking to is not interested in finding out that his or her perception is wrong. The more you argue, the more this person will resist. Just as in being a Christian, you cannot force someone to think. Teach them by example, not by argument. Let this person see you and your friends be productive Christians.
Oh, one last idea. This has only happened once for me, but might be worthwhile to you. I have always made sure that the sessions I hold are open to anyone who wants to observe. Let this person come see a session of your own. Do not tell them what day they should come. Give them a list of the days and times that you play, and tell them to pick one. That way, they do not feel like you have "set up" a front just for them.
gygax interview (Score:3, Interesting)
I'll let Spiff take care of the intro's
To ask a guestion, please type
Drum roll please
I'd like to welcome everybody to today's special subscriber only Arcade event!
This is the very first of its kind for Arcade, and we hope to do more such events in the future.
To kick them off, though, we've got a doozy for you -- an exclusive chat with the *original* Dungeon Master himself, Mr. Gary Gygax
Home: Join us for a chat with Dungeons & Dragons inventor and RPG guru Gary Gygax on Fri., Feb 21st at 3 p.m. PST 6 pm EST 11 pm GMT right here in the Arcade Subscriber's lobby! Lobby moderated - to ask a question type
Ahem.
As the topic notes, Mr. Gygax is one of the developers of the original Dungeons and Dragons pen & paper role playing game
A game that sucked away hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of my life away
Would you believe the author of same? (^_^)
I would!
Heh...
Ok are we ready to get started?
His influence can be not just on RPGs, but on the world of computer games that we've all come to know and love.
So, warm up your brains, and lets get some questions going!
Here we go:
*Ganja-Hamster* Did you expect your creation to get as big as it has and develop such a large following?
for those wanting add me to their lists, sorry, but I need to concentrate on the questions. I'm a slow typist.
When i wrote the D&D game computer's werenot uced by regualt peolle, I thought the D&D gtame would appeal to wargamers and SF fans, so counted on about 50K sales only.
when you're done answering, please add so I know to post the next Q
*FireBall{2}* can you ask him for me how long it took to make the game and how many people were involved in the development of the game?
It took me two weeks to write the first 50 pp ms. for D&D. The play-testers for that period were my son Ernie and daughter Elise
We then added several other persons to the game--Don Kaye, rob and Terry Kuntz. that was befroe the two weeks were up and the rules actually on paper
From their input and thst of about a dizen gamer friends at various colleges, I expanded the rules to 150 pp in the spring of 1973. That ms, was published as the D&D game.
*KungFooFairy* *Do you regret selling the rights to D&D?*
Yes, but I was fed up with the crap at TSR, so i wanted out of that mess. I should not have divested the rights, clearly. But what the heck, Istill love gaming and writing new material, so it isn't that sad a thing...
*{pDs}The_Spaniard* I am not familiar with the D&D universe but I have a basic idea how would you explain it to someone who has never heard of it before?
Sure:) the game is a class-based one in which palyers create a character to "adventure" in a quasi-medieval setting. They meet NPC and monsters, solve problems, explote, and gain experience to become more able. that cover it?
yep
*crt* Have you played Neverwinter Nights? What do you think of their implementation of "live" online dungeon masters?
I must confess to being such an addict of online and computer games that I do not play them. No work gets dne for weeks or longer if I so much as start. From what I have been told, though NWN is pretty close to the paper game experience.
BTW, a game of mine is likely to come up as a MMPO RPG in some months, so then I'll have an excuse to play:)
*xPLASMAx* do you think the rules for D & D work for PC based games aswell as the original game ????
that's hard for me to judge, buy in general I know that the computer frmat requires some considerable change in rules and mechanics from the PnP version. In all, though, the latter rules form a good basis for developing a computer game certainly,
*painartist* Why CRPG's now, what makes this the right time for you to make the transition from Pen and Paper?
Heh! The majority of the RPG audience is playing online and CRPGs, and I took a foray into the latter field back in the early 1990s. three games optioned, and all canned for no fault of the game:( SO I wnet back to PnP, did a new RPG i loved, and figured it would serve as the basis for getting into the computer game field as well,
*KungFooFairy* *How do you see the future of Pen and Paper games faring against todays and tomorrows MMORPG's?*
PnP RPGs will remain the finest esperience--untik the holodeck of the Star Ship enterprise can be created. I think of them as anolagous to Broadway theater, the MMPO game as TV, and the CRPG as a motion picture:)
*StoneRook* "of all the D&D movies/show made - which one do you think was true to your vision?
Gah! The lotR films are good, more like a D&D film than others. Big Trouble in Little China came close in a modern setting. I really liked the first "Harry Potter" movie two, but the second one was a letdown.
*ColdAsIce_* What first gave you the idea to create D&D and have you follwed the examples of some great RPG's we''ve seen over the last year or so?
that question requires an essay length response, going back through my childhood. the most immediate inspiration for the D&D game came from the "Fantasy Supplement" in the CHAINMAIL miniatiures rules that I wrote and was published in 1971.
*{10th_Mtn}AlienHead_* will Mr. Gygax be working with any game developers personally on any rpgs in the future?
I am booked for some time doing paper game products, but if the lajendary adventure mmp GOES FORWARD, LIKELY THERE WILL BE crpg DEALS THAT i WILL BE INVOLVED IN.
*DJO_BrYaN_USMC|NOVA|* What are you doing now a-days? Job? etc....
Oops, didn't mean to shout...
I am very busy writing PnP game material. Besides stuff for the new FRPG system, I have a line of generic d20/La game reference books, and several adventure modules out or about to hit.
*Lokust* (question for Gary): Mr. Gygax, some consider you the largest single influence on fantasy gaming as we know it today. Do you feel that assessment is accurate, and is it a humbling feeling? Or do you feel that fantasy gaming would have evolved as it has without your work on D&D?
Well, that's a tough question, in part. I'll do the easy stuff first. Yes, no question most PRG around sprang from my D&D/AD&D work, and yes, I feel rather humbled by it. Now, as to it coming into being without CHAINMAIL and D&D, who can say? given time, possibly something would have emerged--maybe more influenbtial, maybe a bomb. Look at the D&D film as an example. think of a game as bad as that movie...
*DS-ManiacCop* "were you in any way influenced by J.R.R.Tolkin and how?"
I was mainly influenced in regards marketing. Having been a fan of F&SF since 1950, read back in the genre all the way to 1940, his work was nothing new to me. When isaw so many people taken by the Rings Trilogy, Iadded as muchg as possible of it into CHAINMAIL, then more into the D&D game. I am a great fan of THE HOBBIT, admittedly, and read it aloud to all of my children--three times through the book that way;)
*Behumat* how did you arrive at the name Dungeons and Dragons? And were there any other cool or funny titles you considered?
There's some wrong information about how the title came to be. What happened is that I wrote two lists of names for a potential title, each one word, and had them in two columns. Then I polled my fellow gamers and family as to which they liked best. When my daughter Cindy, then a little girl, jumped up and down at hearing "Dungeons & Dragons," I was decided. It had been my favorite, but one never knows...
*USMC_3rd_Battalion* What was the first monster you created in D&D?
I took all the monsters from CHAINMAIL. then I added some new ones.
Can I ask a quick follow-up?
sure
What was the first monster you created for CHAINMAIL?
the first monsters for CHAINMAIL were a red dragon, a giant, a troll, ogres, and orcs--as well as elementals. I think that was the first roster anyway;)
*KungFooFairy* *Do you prefer class-based leveling as opposed to skill-based leveling and why?*
My current preference is for skill-based RPG.
I don't usually listen to anything but the whining of my players when I am GMing;)
*crt* how often do you play PnP D&D games these days? I assume you have a regular group you play with?
out of order, sorry. I play D&D seldom any more. I have run a regular LEJENDARY ADVENTURE game campaign for almost seven years now, and we have a weekly session on Thursday nights here at my house--7 or 8 regulars currently. I do DM some OA/D&D games now and then at conventions, of course.
*_-{12thMarines}-1Lt_* How did you think of the whole concept and what was the most satisfying part of creating D&D?
Oops! the essay-length query again. See above.
whoops!
*RT_Riyker* Is there any other type of game genre you enjoy other than RPG that wouldn't be too embarrassing to admit?
the most satisfying part of creating D&D was having fun DMing, playing, and knowing that so many of my fellow game fans were likewise enjoying the experience. Greatest thing of all, that!
*Hook{1}* Were your parents supportive of your work, or did you often hear the question, "When are you going to get a real job?"
Heh, by the time I wrote D&D I was in my early 30s and my father, rest his soul, was deceased. My mother and then-wife were somewhat concerned that I had left a career in insurance to be a game designer. They had some reason to worry, too, as I starved for about four years, eeked out a living doing other things while writing about 30 hours a week.
that should be "eaked" of course:(
*WiKiD-paybak* What is his opinion to those against D&D Like the Fundamenatlists out there who think its Demonic etc? ( Their all dumb in my opinion)
The critics seem to have a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality, bvetween game play and actual behavior in life. this is mostly due to ignorance and/or prejudice, encouraged by media of sensationalist sort.
*Avatar* You mentioned the Enterprise- Are you a big Star Trek fan?
While I can't say I am a Trekkie, yes. I do enjoy the STAR TRECK programs and the movies. I am not a Shattner fan, though.
*DirectX* is thier a time in your life when you will give all this up
Sure. when I am no longer able to write. Until then, though, I am enjoying the "work" too much to want to stop.
*KungFooFairy* *Do you believe that the playing of RPG's can have a positive influence on humanity as a whole?*
I know from countelss fan letters and emails that RPGs have had a very positive effect on about 99% of those who played. If that can translate to humanity at large, I suppose they can. right now I'd estimate the number positively impacted in the low millions, though.
We only have time for one more Q..
*DJO_BrYaN_USMC|NOVA|* Is there a website were we can stay up to date on your projects and find more info on you?
sure, lots of them, sorta...
My homepage is www.gygax,com My webmaster and host are currently readying an update that will have all that information on it, and my long biography too.
In regards to the LA RPG there is the PnP website www.lejendary.com
For the LAO game its www.LejendaryAdventure.com
www.dragonsfoot.org has a LA game section
I have a long pair of Q&A threads up on the boards at EN world--sorry can't recall the URL.
Anyone can email me at ggygax@genevaonline.com as well;)
Gary -- thank you SO MUCH for dropping by to chat with our subscribers.
Thanks for taking time to be here with us!
We -- and they -- appreciate your time.
Thanks too to all the subscribers who turned out for the event!
Hey, my pleasure to be here, and i consider it an honor to be asked, and to all the audience here I say "Thanks a lot!"
Re:I have no D&D experience... (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, carrying rations is so much easier. Waybread ho!
Re:My poor memory (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Did anybody actually (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, this was all as dangerous as it sounded.
Re:And some minor advice... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:My poor memory (Score:1, Interesting)
Around the same time the master set of D&D was released, the 1st edition hard cover rules for AD&D came out. The AD&D rules were a players manual, Dungeon masters manual, and a monster manual. Later on they also released a Dieties and Demi-gods manula and a second monster manual.
Three editions later and AD&D still has a strong attraction for me.(Though as of the third edition, they've discontinued the original D&D and renamed AD&D to D&D).
Hope this helps.
Re:Ah the good old days (Score:5, Interesting)
Ahh yes the good old days. I started with the silver chain mail rules oh so many years ago. Back then you could pick up the phone, call up and talk to Gary Gygax in person. I had a 30 min. long distance conversation with him over some rules. Hell, dad busted my ass for that one.
Anyway, computer games have a long way to go before they can catch up with pen and paper. Neverwinter Nights seems to be the cloest they have came. But still have a long way to go.
TSR did do one thing I liked, they released just about everything 2nd edition to pdf format. I don't play 3rd editon and have 6 gigabytes of 2nd editon in soft format. When I do have a game I just toss everything on to my laptop and off I go.
Every thing is cross referenced and indexed in acrobat. That to me is the best use for computers in AD&D. I also have the Core Rules software and that can be useful.
Re:My poor memory (Score:1, Interesting)
All the other boxes people are talking about in this thread are versions of Basic Dungeons and Dragons. Basic D&D had an original blue box that came with a light blue book and either crappy dice or little paper chits with numbers on them(no kidding the chinese supplier of dice couldn't deliver so they put it a popout sheet of squares with numbers on them.)
The red basic set came out later.
Re:Did anybody actually (Score:3, Interesting)
It is infinitely more detailed and complex than the flashy CD ROM games I have played.
It took me nearly 8 months to win the first time.
Re:Okay, really now (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to feed the trolls or go WAY off topic, but it's mostly because Wil is a pretty attractive guy.
I'm gay and 21 and most of the guys my age had a teen-age crushes on the character. Most of them hated Star Trek but watched it just for the episodes in which Wesley was featured.
I'm not saying Wil is gay. He's married IIRC, but he sure is cute.
Re:And old D&D book got me into RPG video game (Score:3, Interesting)
Odd logic, that.