Xbox Linux Made Possible Without a Modchip 996
An anonymous reader writes "Free-X have released an exploit for the Xbox that will let you get Linux on the machine without any hardware mods at all... Microsoft is already threatening them with legal action. Here's the Free-X statement. Free-X say they had been trying to contact MS for a month but were ignored, which is why they've released the exploit. Should be interesting to watch this one."
Woops, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
Typical (Score:2, Insightful)
MS before: Screw them, we haven't got time to deal with annoying flies on the wall like that.
MS after: Shut up! Sue them! This kind of thing is why we hate open source. They want to take our intellectual property and turn it into an experimental plaything.
honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
Congrats to the guys for the hard hacking work, but get a little business sense and in the meantime, better get a lawyer. This ain't gonna make the boyz in Redmond none too happy.
Chris
And the floodgates open.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Q1: How do I get the files onto the harddisk?
A1: There are several ways. You could f.e. install the files with the Mechassault or 007 hacks. This requires one of the games and the files on a memorycard. The other way is to open the box and do the harddisk swap trick which is described all over the net.
So if you need to use an existing hack to do this, and those hacks didn't qualify for the prize, how could this one? Any Xbox experts care to comment?
Additionally, isn't it nice to see that companies are now suing on a regular basis for exploit publication. Good that they only want black hats posessing this sort of information.
Blackmail (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article, seems that is exactly what they tried to do:
For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:
- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.
Not demanding? Why would Microsoft politely offer any of those things?
too bad for microsoft (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What the.. ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Same as this exploit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is NOT the same as gaining access to / duplicating copyright works.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
A significant number (to Microsoft) of people are not going to rush out and buy X-Boxes to install Linux on it. Maybe a few thousand worldwide, MAYBE. That's not going to put them over the top against Sony.
Chris
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Woops, too late (Score:2, Insightful)
PS: be sure to save the page, ya never know how long it will be up for
Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular (Score:3, Insightful)
People who buy Xboxes to install Linux do not buy more Xbox games!!!
This is a Bad Thing because it is only a matter of time before someone starts using this approach to hack Xbox Live. These Assholes were treated way too kindly in the Penny Arcade Comic [penny-arcade.com]. All I can say is I loathe these guys the same way I loathe the bored programmers that ruined Quake 1, Quake 2 and Counterstrike. The actions these zealots have taken will inevitably lead to cheating on Xbox Live, which is a real shame. To me, part of the point of paying for Xbox Live is so that I don't have to deal with the same fecal coated cheaters online- if you're caught, you're banz0red. Why is it that some people can't just rub there 2 486s together and be frigging happy w/ their beowulf cluster?
This is a terrible day for gamers.
Microsoft Dumping X-Box (Score:4, Insightful)
Dumping things undervalue as a monopoly is unethical and illegal in many places. I'd like to see that in some news stories, instead of no explanation why microsoft would care at all what someone did with their own bought hardware.
Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Now, the XBox is a proprietary piece of shit, and is controlled by a single gorilla (of course, with contributions from a few chimps). What's the motivation of getting GNU and Linux running on this proprietary junk?
MS loses money since they make losses on hardware? Crap! Unless the XBox is sold for under $50, this assumption is ridiculous. Geeks get a sense of revenge when they try to annoy MS? Sorry - MS is too smart for that. If they felt XBox hacks were truly threatening their margins, they'd have let loose SCO or some other SCUD litigation.
Doing geeky things is not the primary or only objective of the GNU connosieurs - the more important reason is to make the software AND the hardware free of encumbrances and/or lock-ins.
The best hacks for the XBox will become meaningless if MS comes out with a new design. The devious statements and logic emanating from the press about the XBox and the hacks - does in fact indicate that some kind of social engg. is at work.
It's like all the brouhaha about the latest Harry Potter - how it's getting stolen, how many millions have sold in the first week, how some cheap folks are trying to obtain illegal copies, etc. It's promoting by making an appeal to criminal insticts.
Cracking an XBox to run Linux is like using a 500MB word-processor to write a 1 page letter. Waste of resources and effort, it profits only MS. Better contribute to some useful GNU projects, such as AbiWord - there's many of them out there that need attention.
Re:Too Late for Microsoft (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh no, owners of existing X-Boxes and games will use this to boot linux after Microsoft et al have already profited from them. Some people might start using X-Boxes for non-game-playing purposes, and more than 100,000 people will want to use their X-Boxes (and buy more X-Boxes) exclusively for this because hacked sub-PCs are the platform of choice for stability and reliability. Some authors will even make unauthorized games for the X-Box which will sell like hotcakes because the authors are so good that real game companies refuse to hire them for fear of them taking over.
And there is no possible way for Microsoft to fix this issue in future releases of its hardware or games or its online feature.
This is a great loss to Microsoft and will undoubtedly drive them out of business altogether.
</sarcasm>
Get over yourself.
-M5B
Monopolyt (was) Re:Blackmail (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't want to encourage the glee of watching 'cock fights', as I don't think its right, but this is shaping up to be watching King George complain about the colonists protesting the tea tax, because it "isn't fair", boohoo.
As a monopoly convicted in court, requiring access to other operating systems on the hardware it is selling -at below market prices- is absolutely a must.
I hope the right people make an issue of this, because this very well may blow up in Microsoft's
face.
Re:Looks like they weren't bluffing (Score:2, Insightful)
KFG
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:2, Insightful)
its a sad day for microsoft? (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:5, Insightful)
"You should never challenge a powerful company like this."
Nope. I gotta disagree with that.
I for one do NOT believe "powerful" aka rich companies shoudn't be challenged. Having money should not mean carte-blanch authority to steamroll customers over trivialities and the greater business community should be wary of any organisation that grows unchecked. It may be difficult (especially if the court is swayed by financial contributions) but powerful companies should ALWAYS be challenged.
Re:Off topic...but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:honestly... (Score:2, Insightful)
Your fanciful idea that subverting the license might help Microsoft is irrelevant, not to mention stupid. It doesn't matter if it hurts them or helps them, Xbox owners agreed to a license and are bound by it.
When you produce a product of some kind you have the right to dictate its use also, not that a lame pom could ever produce anything people would pay money for.
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
If I can make the firmware do what I want, then how could that be illegal? Once I pay for it, MS no longer has a say in how I use it.
If I hollow out the case and use it as a planter, is that an illegal modification? Can Microsoft sue me because they're not making their royalty money on the plants I'm growing in my XBOX?
Re:I don't understand (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that when they were ignored, they carried out the implicit threat of releasing the information (implicit in their suggestion that they'd sign an NDA in exchange for money), makes it look like blackmail to me.
It's the demand for personal gain that makes the threat of disclosure into blackmail.
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Insightful)
Suppose I decided that I really, really liked using Xboxes as boat anchors. Is it your belief that such use would be against some license and that I would be technically in violation of it? Wrongo.
Windows XP (Score:0, Insightful)
How about Windows? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite simple really.
For instance, if I was to make a CD that doesn't play, I will call it copy protected, meaning it works (because I say so) and you don't get your money back. Then, when someone figures out how to make it work, I sue them into submission.
It has other purposes as well. For instance, it can be very useful in extorting money, and bending people to your will.
You see, what you do is invent a copy protection scheme (we'll call it CSSS) and make it standard on some multimedia format (that we'll call DVDDs). Unfortunately, no copy protected device has ever gotten popular, so to make sure yours gets popular, you make CSSS so crappy that a 5-year old could break it. Now, your DVDD format will get popular, because people can all copy the DVDD discs.
Then, when anyone want's to make a DVDD player, they can't, unless they get permission to use CSSS from you. Before you allow them to use CSSS, you simply require a huge ammount of money, and force them to sign a contract saying they will do everything you tell them to, and include nothing extra on their CSSS players that you don't like.
Now, you are raking in the money, and you control the entire DVDDs player market, because the DMCA doesn't allow anyone to get around your crappy CSSS without your permission.
Re:And the floodgates open.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, maybe i'm misunderstanding, but doesn't the 007 trick let you run an ftp server on the box? And the current hack involves adding & adjusting some files on the HD (such as with the ftp server) which then allows you to load whatever. So, after the first use of the 007 ftp trick, you have a totally modded system....or am i missing something.
Like this comment says... [slashdot.org]
-Ted
This is why Microsoft should be broken up (Score:4, Insightful)
However because they are tied to a company with no interest in seeing Linux get anywhere, they are forced to take every possible anticompetative measure to stop it suceeding.
It's the same with other MS products - the don't produce phone or PDA sync software for Linux... why exactly? Wouldn't it be nice to have access to those extra customers? Oh... but I forget... then they might not need to buy Windows. How about office? If it had been split off at the time of the antitrust trial, and given the level of interest of corps in the Linux desktop, don't you think that there would have been a Office-for-Linux by now? But then you might be able to avoid buying Windows desktops and Windows servers...
They leverage it the other way too, making it easier to use MS products on Windows than anything else - look at the level of integration they have with Outlook. I talked to a guy from Sharp about their Outlook connector for the Zaurus and they said they had a hell of a time getting it to work because Microsoft wouldn't release the lower level APIs to the developer of a Linux PDA.
It's hard to believe that a whole company could be evil, but MS seem to be trying hard.
Re:To prevent being sued (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:honestly... reverse social engineering (Score:2, Insightful)
1. Your hardware will work and/or be supported in it's present form, indefinitely by Microsoft.
Since I have not made any hardware modifications to my xbox, my warranty is intact. When that runs out, I run the same risks of non-support that I would if I used the xbox only as a console.
I am not insane; I don't expect indefinite support. Chances are good that when this hardware wears out, I will be happy to simply junk it.
2.You'd rather wait for these and better hacks to run Linux, rather than spend $200 for a Walmrt Linux box with warranty.
In my own situation, I have no real need for a Linux box. I have this xbox. Running linux on it is of equal if not better entertainment value to playing games on it.
3. A large number of people get these XBoxes as a gift.
To repeat myself, I am speaking only of my own situation. I don't have any answers for other people.
As Microsoft says often, think 3 years down. XBox may be cheap to acquire, but who supports the Linux?
In my own situation, linux is "supported" by thousands, across the globe, who publish their support. I have little need for immediate support. The little need I have has been met to date by informal IRC conversations.
Again, I have no answers for others. I would not recommend to a corporate entity that they run a mission-critical web server on an xbox!
Why should GNU coders take interest in a proprietary plaform controlled by the gorilla they love to hate?
The fact is, they do. As long as they do, I am grateful.
Re:Wilkins' "universal" language is English? (Score:2, Insightful)
"begin-base64 644 dayX.tgz..."
"===="
into emacs(or whatever your prefered editor is(so long as it doesn't insert it's own formatting)) and save it as something like xbox.64
$uudecode
$tar xzvf dayX.tgz
Say hi to Bert and Ernie for me.
-Steve
Re:Thoughts (Score:1, Insightful)
When you use the 007 hack trick, it allows you to boot linux 1 time, then everytime you want to reboot you have to re-use the 007 trick. But it looks like this setup allows you to do either the 007 trick or HD hack trick to put these font files on the system, and once the font files are put into the specific directory, they will auto-execute the default.xbe file (which normally doesn't exist) from the root directory. I'm not positive about this, but I think that without the font files being replaced, you wont be able to execute the default.xbe file, only the xboxdash.xbe (which is also located in the root directory on the C drive).
Small man, big company (Score:2, Insightful)
In June of 2000, you could make attempts to contact the president of the USA and tell him you have information about a possible terrorist attack on American soil...in exchange for that information you would want to be a part of the national security and obtain the secrets to how they operate.
He would have ignored you just like Microsoft ignored them. You don't just walk up the front door and ring the bell with these large companies.
linux on xbox? (Score:5, Insightful)
- Oisin
Swallow the party line and try not to think (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not blackmail, although MS have painted as such and quite a few people have failed to actually think about it. These guys told MS that they were going to run Linux on their Xbox and it would be easier for everyone, including MS, if they simply had a normal Xbox signed binary. But, they knew they didn't need it if MS didn't want to help.
In other words: We're going to do this the easy way or the hard way, but we ARE going to do it.
MS, no one else, picked the hard way. They had nothing to lose by going the easy way and the fact that they now have a compromised Xbox situation is entirely their own fault.
After all, when MS tells people that they will sue them for running their own software on their own hardware, who exactly is doing the blackmailing? And that question is exactly what open source is all about.
TWW
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:2, Insightful)
I took that line slightly out of context - "like this" probably refers to the manner of the challenge, rather than companies like MS, but the point was made.
I hesitate to get started, but if sacrifices aren't made (like these guys getting toasted in court) then corporations and by extension, the governments they pay for, WILL walk all over the people. I hope the X-mod guys don't get fubared over extortion-type claims, but if they do, I think there will still be a greater benefit from pushing the point of "consumer" rights to use things they payed for - eg, an X-Box.
One thing I think they forget, is that away from work and outside their industry, they too are "consumers".
Re:I don't understand (Score:2, Insightful)
And yes that knowledge the group created from their effort is theirs. Where there are problems is in the way in which the group handled this. They interpreted Microsoft's decision not to entertain them further as a greenlight or disinterest. This was a stupid mistake. They asked for personal rewards for having this information and sharing it with Microsoft. Their indication was that if Microsoft responded in a timely matter, the group would not release the exploit to the public, but would instead keep it under wraps in proviso Microsoft sponsored the development of a Linux product. This is the blackmail aspect. Had Microsoft complied, the group would not be releasing the exploit. We as the consumer or game developer would be ignorant to this horrible security flaw that could enable software piracy - as they put it.
I really wish these kids spoke with an attorney first and gotten advice from some of the more credible members of the Linux community. What they've done is cool and certainly valuable, but it may prove personally devastating.
Right now, I'm really hoping that either I'm wrong or that Microsoft has developed a sense of humor about these things.
Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? (Score:4, Insightful)
That doesn't mean it's the best beer.
Correct. Probably more people program in Visual Basic than Java, Perl and Php combined.
That doesn't mean VB is the best programming language, either...
Sounds typical (Score:5, Insightful)
"There's a flaw in your code."
"There's no flaw in our code."
"I'm telling people there's a flaw in your code."
"Alright, there is a flaw, but we're not fixing it."
"I'm telling people how to exploit this flaw in your code."
"Ok! Ok, we'll fix the bug."
These guys have been telling Microsoft that they can run Linux on an Xbox without a mod chip for months. Microsoft has ignored their warnings about the "flaw" in their "code," so we've now arrived at "I'm telling people how to exploit it." Unfortunately, because the majority of people on capital hill are mildly retarded and/or (emphasis on the "and") corporate bitches, Microsoft will NOT be forced to fix the error, but will simply sue the people who publicize the flaw because it involves encryption.
For those to whom it is NOT already patently obvious, THIS is the danger of the DMCA: Companies that provide defective products involving encryption are NOT forced to repair the error or lose business, they now have the option of silencing the white-hats who try to warn them, and trying to ignore the hordes of black-hats who are now working to duplicate the exploit.
Naturally, when involving open-source software, the DMCA becomes irrelevant, because anyone can see and fix the code: We do not have to wait in the hallowed corporate halls waiting for a magic trinket, and that is what they (in reference to greedy CEO's and their ilk, for whom the pursuit of money has become a late-stage cancer) fear.
Ok, I am done rambling. You may now resume your regularly scheduled indoctrination.
Re:Woops, too late (Score:4, Insightful)
MS's own fault? They have no obligation to fill that request. They do, on the other hand, have reason not to comply as their units are sold at a loss. On top of that, the way MS was approached was lame. "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money."
Frankly, I don't see how Free-X would have felt that they were approaching MS in a reasonable way. Their handling of this situation was irresponsible, and trying to sound like the victim here makes things worse. They've essentially validated the need for the DMCA. All MS has to do now is post a loss as a result of it, and the courts will have to factor that in their decisions.
It would be a really good idea to make sure that whatever comes of Linux on the XBOX encourages people to continue using their XBOX as a game machine. Use it to do stuff that doesn't get in the way of playing games. Playing movies or MP3s is good, they can pop their game disc in and play. Using it as a server is bad, they want it up all the time and don't want to interrupt it.
I'd feel a whole lot better about this situation if the people involved were trying to expand the use of the system instead of just flipping off Microsoft. (I'd also feel better if uses for this machine running Linux weren't better served with a cheapy PC.)
Re:No DMCA in Austria (Score:5, Insightful)
The european version of the DMCA, the EUCD came into force in Austria on July 1st. [wiki.ael.be] (I even think the directive could be used against them before that, though it hasn't been transcribed into austrian law). The mailing list message was sent on July 4th. (quite symbolically...)
On the other hand, the picture's pretty murky anyway. The EUCD doesn't change the status for computer programs, and that's what we're really talking about here. It's also important that this exploit has several effects. It may be used for playing pirated games, (nono) but it is also a tool for using the X-box for quite legitimate purposes, like building a home media system etc. Also, the exploit is not done on the programs themselves, but on the platform. Then there is the issue of changing the font files. I don't quite get whether they used changed MS font files or rolled their own. If they use changed MS files, MS might be able to go after them on their "artistic rights".
I recommend finding an austrian lawyer. (And a sympathetic judge...)
Re:I don't understand (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, they asked for MS to acknowledge open use of the XBox platform, too, but that was only one of their demands.
It's little different to approaching Coca Cola saying you've found out their secret recipe, and you've worked out how to make it taste better (although you had to operate an unlicensed particle accellerator to do some of your technical analysis, so the government might not be too happy with you). At this point, you ask for reimbursement of your expenses, indemnification against the potential government prosecution, and a job on their food science team helping them improve their recipe. Or you'll blow the whole gaff and go public with the secret recipe - and the trick for making it better...
The thing is, in that situation, you could get what you want, but you won't get it by threatening them.
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I don't understand being a lackey for the man (Score:2, Insightful)
Could you bend over a little more please? Your head isn't as far past your ankles as I would like it to be. Shhheessh!
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect (Score:4, Insightful)
We just broke into OUR OWN house that we bought from you, and found that your lock is very easy to pick. We can help you to improve the lock....
Beer howto (off topic) (Score:2, Insightful)
Never mind the brand. Most of the industrial stuff tastes the same anyway. Real issue is how to effectively order a beer in a crowded bar:
South Australia: A heawy scooner please will cause the bartender to serve you half a liter of West End Super. This however does not work in the rest of Australia where you have to order by Pot (Qld and Vic) or Middie (WA and NSW).
Germany: Ein pils bitte will, after a tapping delay of approximately 5 minutes, get you a local brew from the tab. Due to the latency it is recommended to pipeline the process: Order the next beer when the current beer is delivered. This will guarantee you a new beer every 5 minutes.
Sweden: En stor stark (a large strong) will give you half a liter of 5% beer. For heavy drinking tax-free party ships to Tallin, Gdansk or Oslo are recommended.
Soviet Union Beer was usually out of stock. Vodka or spirt (99% Ethanol) could be bought from the nearest taxi driver. Also good as a substitute for windshield liquid which was also hard to get hold of. In current times I recomment Nevskoe for the St. Petersburg area, although Baltika is usually easier to get hold of.
For better taste you should try Budweiser Budvar from the Czech Republic (Don't confuse this with the cheap US copy of the same name)
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Lindows on Xbox (Score:5, Insightful)
>The ability to completely hiijack a competitors hardware technology.
Funny, I don't recall leasing an XBox from Microsoft. When I put that money down, as far as I'm aware, I bought it. It became my property.
I wonder, what goods or services am I stealing from Microsoft by running lunix on my XBox?
Their attitude seems to be that after you buy an XBox, you owe them more money in games sales.
Summary of MS's attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
You only leased that XBox. It still belongs to us, in principle, if not (yet) legally in fact because we chose to sell it at a loss. You're not allowed to do anything to it that we don't want you to, nor to tell anyone how to do anything to such things. Ever. Running Linux on it is stealing from us. You owe us more money in games sales, you thief.
Next week: Gilette to sue people who buy one of their razors and then figure out or tell anyone how to remove and resharpen the blades rather than buying more.
Next month: Coca Cola Enterprises Ltd to sue people who buy a bottle of Dr Pepper, drink it, then use it to fetch water from the office water cooler. Damn, that's me busted.
Let's face it, we're only valued customers as long as we're meeting our implicit obligation to continue consuming. The instant we try and (ab/re)use a product without paying more money to the manufacturer, we bcome heartless thieves, possibly communists, maybe even terrorists.
Linux user, why do you hate America so much?
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. But let's not miss the irony of Microsoft complaining about what they perceive as an attempt to blackmail them, when it's a matter of record that Microsoft has regularly used similar tactics or worse in carrying out their own business. Three words: "knife the baby".
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Re:I don't understand (Score:3, Insightful)
Not quite right. Microsoft decided that the opportunity to paint the Linux community as a bunch of blackmailers was what they really wanted. They adopted a course designed to get the Free X team to make themselves look as bad as possible, however, to Free X team's, I do not think they took the bait to the extent Microsoft hoped.
Like all of Microsoft's attempts to beat Linux in the court of public opinion, this one will also backfire, and just result in more widespread adoption of Linux.
The Free X team may not fare as well, it's hard to say. If Microsoft attempts to press their claims of blackmail, it's hard to see how they will be successful, given that you can characterize their own business practices as the same or worse. Essentially, they'd have to argue that their own business practices are illegal (which of course they are, as has been established, but that's not something Microsoft wants to draw attention to).
As well, Microsoft could be forced to argue that running Linux on the X-Box is illegal. That would most likely backfire horribly. They wouldn't like it at all if they ended up being compelled by the courts to support Linux on all their hardware. Not just allow it, but actively support it.
In the latter case, I suppose Microsoft could always accuse the judge of blackmail, but I doubt that argument would get very far
Re:After reading the articles... (Score:1, Insightful)
You might want to check with Iraq and Afghanistan on that.
And we are not suprised (Score:5, Insightful)
If current copyright and IP laws and the interretation thereof were in affect in the mid - 80's what could we expect?
1. PC's would still cost thousands of dollars
2. The only companies to produce BIOS codes would be IBM, and people that paid IBM royalties
3. The Internet would only be available to people in colleges and government - and the content would be heavily censored
4. The only PC manufacture would be IBM and all others would be "illegal copies".
5. All operating systems that ran on PC's would have to be liscenced from Microsoft
6. 20" Rims would have to be liscenced from GM as the own the IP for "the oversized sport tire package"
7. Performance exhaust systems are a Ford product exclusively.
8. CD-R's would have been outlawed and require a liscence to buy or own
9. There would only be 1 word processing program
10."Reverse Engineering" would be a legal term used at your prosecution.
You think it's crazy? Saying that you can buy a game/toy and are not allowed to open it up under penalty of jail - THAT is crazy. Why doesn't MS tell the truth, you didn't BUY anything except the right to use your toy. In actuality, according to their liscence (or my interpretation) that box that you plunked down 200 bucks for isn't even yours. Get used to it, unless there is a revolt, it is the way of the future. You will own nothing - but you will be allowed to use things, provided you pay enough $$$.
Re:honestly... (Score:3, Insightful)
Only the X-Box code is licensed, and getting rid of the is the whole purpose of the exploit.
is it really illegal (Score:4, Insightful)
Say I don't like WinXP on my Dell. I remove it, repartition and install linux. I can do that because I OWN the box. I'm entitled to do whatever I want with it.
Now look at the Xbox. The Xbox is a system much like a Dell with windows, the only difference is you can't easily uninstall/repartition... until now. Why is this illegal? I bought my Xbox. I OWN every part of that machine. No where does it say "Property of Microsoft" on my Xbox. Can't I do whatever I want with it? Can't Free-X release any software they want for it, much like 3rd parties can release software of their own? .02
Re:Woops, too late (Score:2, Insightful)
No, this is too intimate a battle - far more like living within a 1984 type stalinist or fascist regime with the oligarchy constantly scheming and blocking the underground who are always on the run. The Matrix perhaps, too.
This ain't no wild west
Re:Woops, too late (Score:2, Insightful)
> Eventually these corporations will need to take a hint and start some black/grey hat work of their own to support their interests
Could the words 'Eventually' and 'will need to' be replaced with 'Often' and 'do' respectively ? I am afraid so...
This is the end game. (Score:3, Insightful)
Software piracy? Exploit? Could they have protrayed themselves in a worse light? They also promised to sign NDAs and happily screw everyone else and work exclusively for M$ like good little boys and girls should. Sounds like standard BSA propaganda to me and the wave of corporate sponsored, Digital Rights Damaged, coppies of free software bode evil for software freedom.
Free software is not about making binary coppies of a few games, it's about having control of your hardware and building things. An xbox with a "signed" Linux kernel that can't be programed or modified offers neither liberty nor the license FreeX offers as a substitute. That kind of box is worth no more than XP on a Next Generation Enslaved PC, except it might have better uptime.
It would not be at all surprising to learn that Microsoft is paying FreeX to make this noise. If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck, chances are it's a duck.
Who knows, perhaps this is the way for M$ to meet the Linux threat while further expanding into hardware sales. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish is their tried and true pattern. They can call it Shared Linux, port M$ Office to it and push it on big dumb companies as the legitimate child of the free software movement. $100/box is 1/4 the price of a current corporate desktop and they will be just in time for the next corporate "upgrade" cycle. If it caught on, Dell and Gateway would indeed be introuble, because they have to buy their software from M$. Then they move in for the kill by using the DMCA to neuter the GPL. Distributing partial source kernels in a way that nothing can be modified even if you had the source is a massive violation of the spirit of the GPL if not it's letter. What use is source code if you go to jail for modifying it?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, purchasing the xbox only helps M$. If you want a gaming console, buy one with merrit. If you want a PC build one. One way you get better games, the other way you keep your computing freedom. Purchasing the xbox gives you neither of the things you are looking for and removes a sale from someone who's more interested in what you want.
Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Woops, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
Well the information age has become the age of the consumer, by default, is a criminal. So really the wild west analogy makes some sense here. If this current trend keeps up of "protecting" big business from all of their paranoid delusions there wont be anyone but 'criminals' left. We know full well that the RIAA/MPAA would ban what we know as 'fair use' in a heartbeat if it meant more sales. They wish to control sales, distribution and methods of consumption. Don't consume your music in fashion they want? You are a criminal.
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing (Score:5, Insightful)
If MS can say that you can't open it or run software on it, does that also mean that MS can keep you from reselling it or smashing it with a sledgehammer or just tossing the whole thing in the garbage?
If someone wants to maintain control of a device after they give it to the consumer, their only choice is to rent it to the consumer and maintain the ownership themselves.
Re:Woops, too late (Score:3, Insightful)
But saying that MS sells their stuff too cheap is NOT our problem or fault nor should matter in anything at all.
Snippits from your post:
> They do, on the other hand, have reason not to comply as their units are
> sold at a loss.
and
> All MS has to do now is post a loss as a result of it, and the courts will have
> to factor that in their decisions.
By this reasoning, little Jimmy that bought an XboX and one game is costing MS money, so MS should be allowed to sue him for loss of profit.
Or maybe I bought an XboX waiting for one particular game to be released, and it keeps getting delayed.. Uhoh, I'm costing MS money! Time to get sued.
No.
MS selling stuff too cheap is their fault, and their stupidity.
If the courts aggreed with you, any loser on ebay that sold something cheap and later realized it was worth alot more money could sue the buyer.
When a person or company sells something for alot less than its worth, its called stupidity and stupid people deserve what they get.
If you sold something to me for $10 that cost you $50 to make, you have no legal or moral grounds to bitch and complain about it. The deal is done. it was your fault for not looking into what price to set.
The future isnt garneteed, nor do any laws care about the future.
Doing something stupid now under the asumption you will get money in the future is called gambling which in most states is illegal.
An example is buying a lottery ticket. You are paying for a piece of paper that is worth probably $0.05 in paper product, yet will cost $5 or more.
That is stupid.
But its stupidity in the hopes that you will get alot more money in the future.
Its a Gamble.
You dont hear "The state lottery cost me money, i bought the ticket knowing it was at a lost cuz i planned on getting money from the winnings!"
(Well maybe you do, but you dont listen to it)
MS doing this is the same thing.
They are gambling that they will possibly make money after selling the xbox at a lost stupidly and now are bitching and moaning that they lost that gamble.
Aww.
Lets also not lose focus.
When a razor company sells you a razor, gambling that they will make money on the blades, do you see them trying to pass laws to make it illegal to do anything with their razor other than what they want?
There is a reason for this.
With MS it is no different. Yet they want to pass laws (and pretty much seems like they are going to get away with it)
If i was to buy an XboX, its MY hardware to do with as i please, which includes replacing your copyrighted software with myown.
Copyright does not mean im not allowed to delete your crap and use my own. Only that i cant give out your copyrighted code (Which noone doing these mods has any reason to do, nor should they if you still believe in copyright)
If i buy a book and feel like dipping each page in whiteout and using it as a diary, the book publisher cant say squat about it!
Nether can MS.
Then if you look at the REASON they sell the console at a lost, its even worse.
They only do that so they can actually compare in price to their competition!
Notice how macs dont charge prices similar to home build PCs? Yet they still sell? Its because the people that buy macs feel they are worth the extra money.
Is MS out right admitting noone would ever buy their xbox due to technology alone? Well, that wouldnt be surprising, but it seems even MS aggrees here, or they wouldnt NEED to sell it at a lost!
If their business plan includes losing money on a crappy hardware product which they want to control every aspect of after
Re:Woops, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
/* Beginning of quote */
Since our attempts to contact Microsoft have become public knowledge our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft, this is not true as we have made every attempt possible to make contact with Microsoft to offer the following:
- A complete summary of all hacking technologies (many of these technologies have not been released).
- Source Codes.
- All attacks which have been developed but not yet released.
- To sign a Non-disclosure Agreement regarding our discoveries.
- Further research on exploits, which would be exclusive to Microsoft.
- Full names of all hackers involved upon agreement of legal protection from Microsoft.
- Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft.
For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:
- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.
/* End of Quote */
I think the threat went more like You listen to us tell you about the security vulerability that would probably tick off content creators or we'll tell everyone else in hopes to get you to fix the code.
Do you get mad when someone discovers a flaw in Internet Explorer? Oh, but this is different, they're blackmailing Microsoft...
Once again quoting - "For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:... A signed Linux loader.
From Parent - Frankly, I don't see how Free-X would have felt that they were approaching MS in a reasonable way. They offered to give microsoft all the code and to sign a non-disclosure agreement. They requested in exchange a linux boot loader. They asked. They didn't say "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money." The bootloader was optional. They would give Microsoft the code either way. Microsoft wouldn't even listen. So what part was unreasonable? Disclosing the code, because Microsoft wouldn't listen? People do that all the time. Asking for something in exchange for work? Oh yeah, that unreasonable. Especially when you relize they were just asking.
Re:Lindows on Xbox (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you an MS employee? Your post is so full of blatant lies I don't see any other possibility.
Re:Woops, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
What are the odds of the courts saying the following to Microsoft?
"You sell your systems at a loss... that is a bad business decision, and it is not the court's responsibility to protect you from the consequences of your mistakes. Its a business gamble to rely on sale of an accessory to a product to make that business unit profitable. The consumer owns the product when purchased and has the right to decide how they use it, you are infringing on their rights but limiting that choice. We will not protect your poor business model."
In other words, "suck it up, princess".
Acknowledge our demands. (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean really. I think this hack is as cool as the next person does, but who do these guys really think they're fooling? If there is one thing that everybody on the planet Earth knows, it's that MS is not about to assist ANYBODY in the installation of Linux on their console.
"We were nice, polite and reasonable in our attempt to pursuade MS into supporting offical Linux/Xbox development, but since they didn't call back, we released the exploit to the world at large."
I guess you can't blame em for trying, but how is this noteworthy again? Microsoft doesn't want Linux on the XBox. How dense do you have to be to not realize this??? OF COURSE THEY AREN'T GOING TO COOPERATE WITH YOU, regardless of how unfortuante you think it is!!!
You're asking them to remove the only saftey that guarantees they make money on games, their primary source of income! Add Linux and the box becomes a computer, a device of multiple uses. Now you can buy a cheap ass XBox computer sold at a hefty loss and MS has no guaranteed way to recoup the loss because you no longer have to buy games for it.
On top of all that, MS is in DIRECT COMPETITION with the Linux platform (unlike Sony)!!
To even believe they'd answer any other way than they did is insanity of the highest order. Asking them to sell their hardware at a loss and cut the only guarantee they can make the money back through games?! Yeah, I know I would have cooperated too...
I mean, I think the hack is cool, but the sheer naivity of people like these amazes me.
Re:But you DONT own the firmware (Score:5, Insightful)
Fine then, I don't accept the terms of the license. I guess I gotta delete the software. Hmm, now what am I going to do with my XBOX? I know! I'll run Linux on it!
Re:Woops, too late (Score:3, Insightful)
"Spend money developing a solution that only a handful of 1337 h4x0r5 care about, or we'll release it ourselves at no cost to you. In fact, we'll make sure to put ourselves in a position that leaves us vulnerable to a lawsuit in the process so that you can collect money from us. All right now, we're waiting!"
Okay, so it wasn't blackmail, but only because the threat was really lame.
Hardware EULAs (Score:4, Insightful)
IANAL, of course, but IHAB, and it seems pretty obvious that the only HW EULA that would pass muster in a court would be one that the consumer reads and signs before completing the transaction. Otherwise, the consumer's belief that he is in fact purchasing the item in question, rather than a license to use it, would be ratified by any court that heard the case.
Too bad. (Score:2, Insightful)
Why do you think I owe microsoft anything beyond the purchase price of the XBOX?
Re:Hardware EULAs (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No right to making a profit. (Score:2, Insightful)
That's a bad business plan however (cause their not making money), so Standard Oil engineer the car so it only runs on their fuel, and any other fuel will choke it up and destroy the engine. They then sell that fuel on at a huge margin because it's the only fuel that can run in these cars. People buy the car because they see it is perhaps 10% cheaper than competing cars, but fail to notice the jacked up oil/fuel prices until after the purchase. Whew, starting to stink of monopoly now isn't it.
Some clever young engineers reverse engineer the "fuel-sodomiser" (TM) and create a replacement part which allows the car to utilise any oil companies petrol/oil. Now, you might think that's just fair play, it's your car and you can fill it up with whatever fuel you like and get it washed and serviced where you like. Standard Oil have a different concept. You got the car at a bit of a discount so they feel entitled to screw you over for the entire lifetime of the vehicle - and anybody you may sell it on to is likewise going to get screwed.
No court in the world would even think of charging you with criminal actions for replacing the fuel pump in *your* car with a cheap japanese/korean import. They wouldn't blink twice as you fitted a huge new carburator, or new mufflers from third party vendors. Nor would they convict you for switching from oil fuels to LPG. Why do they think we shouldn't have those same rights with our games consoles?
Re:But you DONT own the firmware (Score:3, Insightful)
No, no, no, no, no !
Is there some sort of infinitely renewable stream of people completely unaware of how copyright works?
Copyright has nothing to do with a license. In the basic case, when you buy something that is protected by copyright, you neither need nor receive a license to use it. You are free to use it however you want. The only restrictions are specified in copyright law, primarily limiting your ability to distribute copies of the copyright protected work. There is no "you have no right to use this unless you get a license" clause in copyright law. There is no "when you buy something you get a license to use it" clause.
Unfortunately End User License Agreements have somehow tainted peoples brains and convinced them that they need some sort of magical license to use things they're purchased. You don't. Copyright law restricts you, yes. You can accept a license that will grant you things you couldn't do normally under copyright law (see the GPL, BSD, and similar licenses). But you don't need a license to use, modify for personal use, sell, or give it away! EULAs on software are built on a shaky legal foundation and is most certainly not a point of established law.
Re:Woops, too late (Score:3, Insightful)