The Hacker Behind "Hacking the Xbox"

chromatic writes "ONLamp has just published an interview with Andrew "Bunnie" Huang, author of Hacking the Xbox. Bunnie discusses the effect of the DMCA on his work and the state of Xbox hacking as he sees it."

Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly so.

[Justin205]

It should be, as long as it is not used to run, say, copied games. Microsoft and the DMCA are bastards, who don't seem to know the difference between LEGAL/ETHICAL, and ILLEGAL/UNETHICAL. I don't have an XBox personally, but if I did, I'd be hacking it.

Re:Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly

[drinkypoo]

I don't see why running copied games is okay. The issue is not using it to run illegally copied games. I think that should you extend fair use laws to appropriately cover video games, you would have every right to use them without the original media, so long as someone else is not using the same media at the same time.

Re:Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly

[AKnightCowboy]

I don't have an XBox personally, but if I did, I'd be hacking it.

Why bother unless you're looking to play pirated games? You can get a much better PC system for a couple hundred bucks that'll be faster and not have to "hack" it.

Re:Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly

[jasonditz]

As a general purpose PC you are right. However, the $199 PC will not have the comparatively high end graphical capabilities of the Xbox, nor TV-out.

An Xbox could be an incredibly fun toy to play with in this respect. "Hacking It" is not a chore to most of us here, but an enjoyable activity.

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[fussman]

selling the XBox at a loss and making its profit on the sale of MS XBox games

Oh, you mean 'dumping'. Such a practice is immoral and in some cases (that means 'not all'), it is illegal. In some countries (big ones, not the ones smaller than my backyard), it is illegal entirely. And no, there is no right to play pirated games, but there is a right to run every LEGAL piece of software on your XBOX, which excludes my pirated copy of Halo, but does certainly not exclude Linux.

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[udecker]

Instead, many insist on the right to unilaterally modify the terms and conditions of sale -- after the fact

And the after the fact part is substantial. You payed money for a substantial physical peice of property - and by that element, you "own" that particular physical peice of property. There is no license, you are not reproducing it or taking from the manufacturer's IP and redistributing it, you are "tweaking" it to suit your own needs.

The prevalent attitude on /. is a matter of consumer rights versus manufacturer's rights - if a product substantially similar in the marketplace were available that did not have these hinderances, do you think that it would not be applauded by the slashdot crowd? Basically you're getting a device that Microsoft chose to sell at less than production cost. Under their contract, am I required to purchase additional games from them? No? Then what reason do they have to force me?

The DMCA is the problem here, not the product that is being shipped, because without the law, they still would be producing and selling XBOX's, presumably exactly as they currently are. The legal implication that what I own outright is under someone else's terms and condtions is the prevalent problem frequently disussed here on /.

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[deke_2503]

What, are you implying that it should be illegal to buy cheap razor blade heads for your name brand razors? That if I buy Joe's Cheap Razor Blades that, amazingly enough, are interchangeable with my Gillette, I should be prosecuted?

Anyways... The producer has the right to produce and offer a product for whatever terms it feels satisfactory, but remember that it's for sale. If I buy an XBox, the very presumption by Microsoft that they have any miniscule right to control what I do with it is ludicrous. This is not concerning copyright infringement or anything similar. I legally own the XBox and should theoretically possess the right to use it as I see fit. (Yeah, yeah, assuming not illegal, dangerous, terroristic activity, etc..)

Does this mean Microsoft should not have the right to attempt to secure it? Of course not. If Microsoft wants to obfuscate the XBox to hell so that nobody would want to program for it, I don't care. They obviously have the right. This is irrelevent to the fact that I can do whatever I want with my property, and if somebody wants to put 200 hours into writing a pong emulator for, more power to them.

Finally, your argument seems flawed in the simple fact that the economy isn't run around what is good for Microsoft. We have a capitalistic economy last I checked, and if Microsoft's business plan is sinking faster than the Edmund Fitzgerald, why is it a good thing to have repressive laws that allow Microsoft to perpetuate this? The consumer buys what the consumer wants. If Microsoft can't pull a profit because the consumer wants Sony games, Microsoft needs to get with the program. -dave

EVEN illegal, dangerous, terroristic activity

[Suchetha]

i just want to note that USING something for an illegal, dangerous or terroristic activity is legal.. the ACTIVITY is illegal but not USING something FOR it. Semantics you may say.. but as far as i know you can't get hauled off into jail for USING a gun to kill someone, but for the actual ACT of killing someone.

Re:EVEN illegal, dangerous, terroristic activity

[Viadd]

i just want to note that USING something for an illegal, dangerous or terroristic activity is legal.. the ACTIVITY is illegal but not USING something FOR it. Semantics you may say.. but as far as i know you can't get hauled off into jail for USING a gun to kill someone, but for the actual ACT of killing someone.

Actually, in the US, there are laws that hit you with increased mandatory sentences if you USE a gun in a drug crime. In one case, a guy did a lot more hard time because he USED a gun by trading it

They should make you sign a contract then

[r6144]

If the seller don't want people to modify their stuff, they should make the buyer sign a contract when doing the sale. It is definitely unfair for the customer (even if legal) if they use click-through EULAs or unknown-by-joe-public laws such as DMCA.

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[Bromrrrrr]

Your arguments are so flawed I don't know where to start.

One possible reason why it should not be legal to hack the XBox and run non-MS games or Linux on it is that it would effectively preclude Microsoft from adopting a modified razor blade strategy

Selling a product at a loss does not give you a right to make a profit. If Gillete's razors were (apart from being razors) also very good at cleaning dirt from hooves (or whatever), people might have used it for that, and that alone and Gilette would have been lost to history.

He gambled on his product and he won - big time. Good for him!

If one insists that one has a "right" to hack the XBox and run Sony games or Linux on it, Microsoft's response may be to raise the price of the XBox to at least the level of its marginal cost. Thus, consumers will wind up paying more for the same product. As a result, demand will go down, and this may result in unemployment and/or reduced wages.

This is the most absurd argument yet. Buying an XBox makes me responsible for Microsofts profit and potential loss of jobs??

What if I buy an XBox and use it as a door-stop. Am i now obliged to buy XBox games which I will never use, because otherwise Microsoft will have it's right to profit empeded? Or is not buying products you don't need unpatriotic now?

but instead must offer that good or service to you on terms you feel are satisfactory, or not at all.

this is in fact how sales work, if you don't agree with the terms there is no sale and this goes for both the selling and the buying side.

Instead, many insist on the right to unilaterally modify the terms and conditions of sale -- after the fact.

So right and yet so wrong. The sale is already done! These people have bought an XBox from Microsoft, who agreed to sell it to them at a loss. Microsof has no right to demand how people use their products, especially not -- after the fact.

And do you know why?

[The Revolutionary]

I think perhaps it is time for a sidebar; it seems relevant to this story given the position many seem to be supposing.

"The attitude appears to be that a producer does not have a right to produce and offer for sale a good or service on the terms it deems satisfactory, but instead must offer that good or service to you on terms you feel are satisfactory, or not at all."

Yes, because it is we who set the terms on which those privileged entities, corporations, may profit and prosper within our great nation.

Corporations are permitted to exist in that manner which and only for a time which pleases us and benefits us.

Do you understand perfectly what we are saying? Corporate and powerful private interests have no right or expectation to exploit the great majority that they might raise themselves up over and against their peers.

The state of things is as it is only so far and for so long as we permit it to be. These corporate and powerful private interests have nothing we have not allotted them for a time and for limited purposes, and through our rich democratic process we may just as easily take it again from them when and so far as they abuse it.

We are not pawns. We control our own destiny. Our rights will be respected.

Re: Why can't ms make ms only hardware

[PotatoHead]

Because they sell it to us. It then becomes ours. That means we can do what we want with it including use as gift, doorstop, trash it, destroy it, reverse engineer it, whatever.

If they want to make ms only hardware then they can rent or lease it and handle the cost of churn and upkeep themselves. Why don't they?

Because it is not worth it. That must mean that ms only hardware is not worth doing past what they are doing right now.

Simple really.

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[Lord Kano]

This should have been marked as "Funny" instead of insightful. This guy was obviously illustrating absurdity by behaving in an absurd manner.

There is no argument that can be made that any company has a right to have their marketing strategy or business model succeed. If my business model is that I develop my own cologne and require a license for people to smell it, then sue everyone who uses an unlicensed nose to smell my cologne, I have no right to have that model succeed. I have the right to try it, but

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[dmaxwell]

Why? Why shouldn't Microsoft have the right to invest in, design, manufacture, and sell a game machine that will play only Microsoft games? Why should you have a "right" to hack such a machine and run non-MS games or Linux on it?

Philosopically, the simple answer to your question is property rights. If I pay the 200 dollars for that physical piece of hardware then I own it. The plastic case? Mine. The GPU? Mine. The CPU? Mine. The only thing in that chunk of crap that wouldn't be mine is the code in the firmware. Even then, the only things I really can't do with it is distribute copies or derivative works.

If I can make that chunk of crap + firmware behave in ways it isn't designed to well.....it's mine isn't it? As long as I paid for as in not rented that X-Box and don't use illegal copies of games then I have done nothing unethical.

There is nothing sacred about a business model. Business models do not trump property rights. Since I can buy (not rent) an X-Box in ordinary retail establishments then I have every right to do whatever I want with it. The person behind the cash register doesn't make me sign a contract before I walk out with it.

If MS raises the price on account of this and the apocalypse ensues, fine. That means it was a stupid business model. Does MS have a right to behave stupidly because they employ people? Was Digital Convergence entitled to millions because they gave cheesy bar-code scanners away with Shack catalogs? Every dot bomb business that went under had a business model. It didn't entitle them to anything and yes a lot of people lost their jobs over it. IT businesses got burned and the ones that survived got a bit wiser. Nobody seriously suggested forcing people to abdicate their property rights.

Your next thought may be "Don't buy an X-Box then if you won't use it the way MS intends". It's my money. It's those pesky individual property rights again. If I want to make a media player out of it then that is my business. If MS wants to diddle the X-Box to make that difficult, fine. But if I can get around the diddling then thats fine too.

Re:Hm - by the same token, the GNU license is usel

[sbszine]

if I go into a store and buy a linux distribution that doesn't make me sign a license before using it, I do own the bits. So why should I not use it in a manner that it's authors didn't intend me to, and -for instance- incorporate bits of open source software into my closed source product?

As long as you don't distribute the resulting code, you're within your rights to combine the two for personal use. Neat, eh? This is analogous to you console hacking for personal use rather than game piracy.

I buy a g

Goods vs. Service

[appleLaserWriter]

More philosophically, your post appears to represent an attitude of many people on Slashdot that I don't understand. The attitude appears to be that a producer does not have a right to produce and offer for sale a good or service on the terms it deems satisfactory, but instead must offer that good or service to you on terms you feel are satisfactory, or not at all.

The problem is that Microsoft is confusing "goods" with "service." In the case of software, it is intellectually questionable whether software is a particular thing, or just a license to use a concept that someone else has developed. Consequently, some software is "sold" and other software is "licensed."

Now consider a cell phone. I could go buy a SonyEricsson P800 for about $700. But without a service plan it would be a fairly useless device. Sure it can do 640x480 pictures and send them over bluetooth, but for $700 I expect a lot more. Instead, I buy a Nokia 3650 from ATT Wireless for $150 plus around $90 in monthly service fee (I talk on the phone a lot). ATT has locked my phone so that I cannot switch providers during the term of my contract. Since I'm getting a phone that is worth close to $700 for $150 and a monthly service fee, this is reasonable -- I still owe ATT some value for the use of their device.

Now consider a Rolex watch. Suppose the price of gold went up so much that it was profitable to buy Rolexes and melt them down for their gold. People would flock to jewelry stores to get the gold watches and sell off the gold. Rolex might be angry, but it is really their fault for not analyzing the gold market carefully enough.

Finally, consider an XBox. Microsoft wants to sell XBoxes for $199 so that you can play their $60 games. I want to open my XBox up and put Linux on it. It happens that Microsoft paid arund $350 to make each XBox, so if I don't buy a few games, MSFT loses out. Should I cry for Microsoft's lost profits? no.

Now if Microsoft had sold me the console for $199 plus a monthly fee I might consider using it according to MSFT's guidelines. They are selling a good but treating it like a service. I will continue to treat it like a good that I own. You can treat it like a service if you want.

Microsoft's biggest blunder here is not that they are treating a good like a service, but that they are alienating a small but influential portion of the gaming public. A few geeks want to open up their Xboxes and mess around with them. The vast majority of gamers are going to buy some Xbox games and make Microsoft even more money (once they get past the startup expenses, of course). If Microsoft took a more postivie attitude, XBox console and game sales would probably increase.

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[kaan]

Why shouldn't Microsoft have the right to invest in, design, manufacture, and sell a game machine that will play only Microsoft games? Why should you have a "right" to hack such a machine and run non-MS games or Linux on it?

Here's why. First, let's say that we're all OK with Microsoft, or any other company for that matter, making any kind of product they choose, and for any specific purpose.

Instead of talking about an Xbox and hacking it to do different things, I'd like to mention a few other things to

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[Geek of Tech]

> If one insists that one has a "right" to hack the XBox and run Sony games or Linux on it, Microsoft's response may be to raise the price of the XBox to at least the level of its marginal cost. Thus, consumers will wind up paying more for the same product. As a result, demand will go down, and this may result in unemployment and/or reduced wages.

Charge enough to cover your costs. What a novel idea. If I decide to buy an XBox at walmart right now, I get the XBox, a controller and two games. What if I decide not to buy anymore games? Those are the only two I want. What if I just want to copy all my CDs on to the XBox and use it to play all my music or DVDs? Not buy any games.

There is a great difference between building a business model with the consumers possible future needs in mind and building a business model with the consumers possible future needs as the primary avenue of money making.

If they want to sell me an XBox, fine. If they want to lease on to me, tell me at the store. Don't call it buying if I'm not allowed to use it as I see fit. Show me a contact that says I won't modify it. I promise you, I won't, but if I'm given new terms of agreement after I buy it, forget it. I'm doin it my way.

Course all I want to do with it, is okayed by Microsoft, so this was all just in theory....

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[UserAlreadyExists]

Why? Why shouldn't Microsoft have the right to invest in, design, manufacture, and sell a game machine that will play only Microsoft games?

They do have that right. They can manufacture and design it any way they like. They are perfectly free to make it very hard to get Linux or whatever running on it.

Why should you have a "right" to hack such a machine and run non-MS games or Linux on it?

Because you bought it and paid for it. It is your property and you should be able to do what you want with your

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[AstroDrabb]

I can't believe some people modded this Insightful. Since when are we, as consumers, responsible for M$ (or any company) and the business choices they make? They are using their monopoly to sell these things at a loss to try to take the market. They can do this because of the huge amount of cash they have. While I don't own an XBox and would never buy one, if i DID buy one, it is my property to do with as I like. I can throw it out, drop it out a window or give it to little Johnnie down the street. Ba

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[mgv]

One possible reason why it should not be legal to hack the XBox and run non-MS games or Linux on it is that it would effectively preclude Microsoft from adopting a modified razor blade strategy (pdf) (html) -- i.e., in this case, selling the XBox at a loss and making its profit on the sale of MS XBox games. This strategy is thwarted if Microsoft sells the XBox at a loss, only to have people use it to run Sony games or Linux.

In some countries (eg., Australia) exporting product for less than it cost to prod

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[connorbd]

How about... my box, my right to do as I wish with it?

Pretty simple, really...

Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy?

[jasonditz]

So likewise, it should be illegal to make generic razor blades that fit into other people's razors, and also illegal to use your razor for a purpose that doesn't lead to buying enough blades to make it profitable.

Microsoft has the right to make a game machine that only plays Microsoft games, but they didn't. They made a machine that can be made to play other things.

What you're asking is for us to ignore the reality of the situation, and indeed to make the law punish anyone who recognizes that reality.

XBox is getting kind of old...

[tinrobot]

I mean, 733Mhz processor, GeForce 2/3 graphics, the technology is getting rather long in the tooth by today's standards. By the time they actually get a bootable Linux running on this thing, it'll almost be cheaper to just buy a used machine off of eBay...

I know people are going to argue this, but by the time you consider the thousands upon thousands of man-hours put into trying to crack the thing, it's just not worth it.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[Justin205]

For most people it is a hobby. Like trying to run elderly distros of Linux. Or trying to run Debian. Nothing against Debian, I'm using it now, but it is hard to get running. Sounds like the XBox and Linux. Even though I use Debian for school, it is still just a hobby. Eheheh... But hacking ANYTHING Micro$oft would be fun...

Just go to Fry's

[Atario]

In case you haven't seen it yet, they have low-end machines [mercurynews.com] that are comparable, already running Linux, for about $200.

IANAFETG (I Am Not A Fry's Employee, Thank Goodness)

Re:Just go to Fry's

[shepd]

>In case you haven't seen it yet, they have low-end machines that are comparable, already running Linux, for about $200.

Trust me, that doesn't compare...

- Via C3 Samuel-2 GigaPro 800 Mhz Processor
Not bad for some stuff, but not a P3 733, that's for sure.

- 128 MB SDRAM
Well, this is more than the XBOX, so it wins there. But that doesn't speed it up enough...

- 30 GB Hard drive
Again, more than the XBOX, but doesn't make a difference to linux installation...

- 52x CDROM
It isn't a DVD-ROM, so crap

Re:Just go to Fry's

[niko9]

IANAAA (I am not an acronym abuser) but IDBISOOA ( I dont beleive in spelling out obvious... aw crap!

Re:Just go to Fry's

[aluminumtulips]

Hacking the XBox is NOT about getting a cheap computer that runs linux. It is about curiosity be fulfilled throgh experimentation. I have three machines in the closet that could easily do the job but that's no fun. If you hate Microsoft, want a cheap piece of hardware, AND mentor after Dr. Frankenstein; buy the XBox and the book and FEED YOUR BRAIN!

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[Xerithane]

2 weekends ago I built a Athlon XP 1800+ with 256MB RAM, 20GB hard drive, shitty onboard video (but add $75 for comporable graphics) with the case and it ran an even $257 [enuinc.com].

You can even buy a Shuttle barebones system for not much more. My XBox that I got last month ran $179.

So why did I get an XBox instead of just building a gaming computer? Because I want to play on my TV, with a nice controller, and have it work without upgrading software on my computer. I'm not a windows person. Windows pisses me off

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[ozric99]

I mean, 733Mhz processor, GeForce 2/3 graphics, the technology is getting rather long in the tooth by today's standards.

Long in the tooth? Linux isn't the only reason to have an Xbox (gentoo installable in one or two mouseclicks on a modded xbox btw). I know it's karma suicide to praise Microsoft on slashdot ;) but your used machine from eBay isn't going to have half the quality TV output that the Xbox has. Xbox is one of the greatest things a shoddy company like Microsoft has ever produced. It means that the modded xbox I have sitting in my living room now plays xbox, psx, amiga, snes, megadrive and arcade games. It's hooked up to the LAN so I can listen to my mp3 collection or listen to shoutcast streams. I can stream videos from the LAN, or simply play them from the huge hard drive I now have installed. I can stick a CF memory card into my computer in the other room and we can all view the pictures taken earlier that day on a big screen TV. All accessible from the couch via the xbox's dvd remote control.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[mugnyte]

Sounds like you shoulda bought a video card with NTSC output. I can an emulate gameboxen, stream net blather and play DVDs with just the PC already.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[cdrudge]

Your right...but I've yet to see a reasonably priced video card with video out that looks decent on a regular TV. XBox also does HD, dolby digital, has a convienent form factor, decent price, and plays XBOX games...does your home PC do that?

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[mugnyte]

I don't want it to. I don't play games much, don't care about HDTV, and my equipment lives in a closet, form factor doesn't matter much. However, to each his own. I just need to point out that sometimes chasing the technology has a limit.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I think it helps to have a properly PC compatible display with wireless KB and mouse.

XBox does sound kind of nifty though, particularly for the relatively compact size and the cost.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[m1a1]

Said like a true non-hacker. Do you think he was hacking the X-Box for some sort of commercial gain? Do you think he was hacking it to get a cheap computer? This is obviously not the case. Hackers hack the X-Box for the same reason they hack anything else, because they like to.

Obviously hardware hacking doesn't interest you, it clearly does interest him. Apply your comments to anybody else's hobby and see how they sound? How about my dad, he likes to fix cars. He spends long stretches of time working on his 68 Mustang. "68 Mustang is pretty long in the tooth. Carburator, AM radio, no power steering. By the time he gets the thing usable you could get a used car for cheaper." No shit!? Really!!! Someone tell my dad, quick, before he wastes any more time doing what he loves to do!

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[tinrobot]

Yeah, but you can't pick up chicks in an XBox.

Spoken like a true non-hacker.

Re:

[account_deleted]

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Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[MisterFancypants]

The graphics in the xbox are actually GeForce 3/4 level (GF3 with an extra texture unit).

The *real* issue that makes the XBOX a pretty crappy Linux/desktop/server/anything-but-a-console is the 64 megabytes of memory -- more than enough for great looking games on a fixed platform, but rather lean for modern server or desktop work.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[dosius]

64MB is enough. It's painful running Linux in 64MB but it's certainly doable. (I only have that much RAM)

-uso.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[tytyty]

Broken Xbox $79 120 gig Maxtor $79 slothbox FREE :P http://slothbox.atxconsulting.com Usb ports from old mb's $0 Having a small form factor server to rip and create DVD's from TiVo streams for burning to an usb DVD writer PRICELESS!!!!!

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[MarvinIsANerd]

GeForce 2/3 graphics? Are you insane? The chipset is somewhere between a GeForce 3 and 4, not 2 and 3 like you say. For a linux server, you don't need no fancy graphics card... but this isn't what the Xbox was designed for. It was designed for pure gaming joy... hence, GeForce "3.5" graphics, Dolby Digital 5.1, High Definition (1080i) video, etc... try putting a machine that does all that together for less than $200...

I wasn't going to comment on your post because you were right about the "box" being n

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[p0rnking]

And so are those C64s, Amigas, and the Apple I ... but that hasn't stopped people from "hacking" those ... I'm sure a lot of people do it more for the challenge than anything else. Like, do you really think that the C64 running a webserver is useful at all?

And to who ever said that hacking an XBox should be legal, well, maybe so, but the law is the law, and therefor it isn't legal. M$ doesn't make $$$ on sales of the XBox, they make their $$$ on the games. SO if everyone goes and buys an XBox, and decides

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[!3ren]

More important than cost is the very standardised hardware.
To use a phrase, Imagine a beowulf cluster of these if you will.
Admin'ing a cluster of these would be very easy as all the HD images would be almost identical.
Adding a Node or replacing a corrupt one would be a case of ghosting a HD not installing an OS.

Re:XBox is getting kind of old...

[Geek of Tech]

I tell ya what. You play your games on it and I'll play mine. You play Halo and I'll play doctor.... :)

Uh......

[Geek of Tech]

Microsoft. The people bringing you Trusted Computing. They design a computer. Part for part. No variation between XBoxes. They write an OS that won't let you modify the bootsector. They have their BIOS lock you out. And their Box is cracked. Great...............

Re:Uh......

[mrseigen]

Well, that's what you get when your bootloader can be reflashed by tapping into the right holes on the motherboard. They'll start suing any time now to make it look like they can competently handle the implementation of TCPA without bungling it.

Re:Uh......

[El]

What computer do you know of that can't be cracked if you've got physical access to it and lots of spare time? I feel "Trusted Computing" is a joke too, but just because the XBox can be reverse-engineered doesn't make it bad technology... quite to the contrary, it makes it good technology! (Disclaimer: I own a PlayStation 2 myself.)

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[account_deleted]

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Windows CE

[Aliencow]

"You think it has anything to do with the fact that it's a Microsoft product (the Dreamcast itself booted off a version of Windows CE, for example)?"

It did have a Windows CE logo, almost none of the game used it cause it's crap, and the reason the Dreamcast was such a cool platform was the SH-4 CPU and the fact that it required no modchip to boot games.
No it's not a conspiracy against Microsoft. Of course some people pirate games, but they always will, modchip or not.
There are actually people who enjoy fooling around with hardware.

Re:Windows CE

[drinkypoo]

Yeah, and the fact that it required no modchip to play copied games is probably one of the largest factors in its demise, and thus Sega's. It's sad, because they made a classic overcorrection when they went from the Saturn to the Dreamcast. The Saturn was too hard to develop for (one developer likened it to a pile of chips on a board) so what solution do they use to come up with good development tools? To ally with Microsoft! Good call, but that trick never works. Nothing up my sleeve... Presto!

Re:Windows CE

[Wolfrider]

> Nothing up my sleeve... Presto!

--Hey Rocky, watch me pull a Rabbit out of muh hat!

?Again? ...Goof gas affect brain. No brain, no effect.

(+2 points if any of you get these old, wacky and obscure song references)

Re:Windows CE

[drinkypoo]

Some of the world's smartest geniuses were turning into complete idiots. It was all the fault of a mean little man from a mean little country.
Go on, say the name - I could use the publicity!

Re:

[account_deleted]

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Re:Windows CE

[dootbran]

I don't even think it was the default way to make a game. I can only think of a handful that actually used it.. Sega Rally, Armada, and ... maybe chu chu rocket. It was just an option for faster easier and possibly simpler development.

AUF hack only used by linuxheads?

[drinkypoo]

Once you boot linux through the AUF hack, can't you copy the files you need to boot the xbox from there? I mean that's how the swap trick works kinda, except you have linux running on some OTHER machine (booted from CD) with the proper patch for support for the Xbox's filesystem.

Re:

[account_deleted]

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the state of xbox hacking

[Anonymous Coward]

1) install modchip in xbox
2) borrow/rent games and copy them
3) play copies of games

oh, and alternately

4) install linux

: p

Things like this book are still necessary:

[mcc]

After all, SOMEONE has to build the modchips.

News flash

[Geek of Tech]

And in other news...

Microsoft has just announced two security updates for the XBox gaming system. According to Microsoft, these exploits could be used to make you trip over your shoelaces in Halo.

The other vulnerability could let hackers fill your hard drive with MP3s over CmdrTaco singing.

The second patch is considered extremely important.

I don't get it...

[thorgil]

I really don't get it...
Why hack the xbox? I mean even if the boxes are being subsided by M$ it's still a crappy computer.

Only reason I see to hack the thing is to play cracked games...

If you want a cheap home server build a small, fanless (silent), low power consumption (cheap in the long run) VIA mini-itx (small and quite cheap) box.

+ Timesave NOT to hack the Xbox.

Re:I don't get it...

[cr_nucleus]

If you want a cheap home server build a small, fanless (silent), low power consumption (cheap in the long run) VIA mini-itx (small and quite cheap) box.

It's actualy cheaper to mod the xbox than build a mini-itx pc. Sounds like a pretty good reason to me. Plus, your xbox is already there sitting in the living room so it reduces the device count in the living room.

Re:I don't get it...

[axxackall]

Only reason I see to hack the thing is to play cracked games...

I see your problem -you are addicted to games, especially to cracked ones.

The world, my friend, is much bigger than a set of cracked games. And the life is more interesting than wasting your time on fighting games.

People are finding much more insightful feeling in something creative. Hacking the software code (don't confuse it with cracking someone's protection) is a very creative process and thus it brings very bright feelings.

I am not

No caps for this dude.

[toothfish]

It's never "Bunnie"-- always "bunnie". Even on the book jacket (both versions).

Can someon answer this question I've been having?

[Anonymous Coward]

Andrew Huang hacked the x-box over a year ago, and managed to find the key to sign software to run on the xbox [com.com] isn't this the key that the linux for xbox community has been looking for? Even though Huang has said he wouldn't share the key with anyone, presumably people can reproduce Huang's method for extracting the key. please someone clarify... I'm confused.

Re: Can someon answer this question I've been havi

[identity0]

Nonono, didn't you watch the movie? After Neo used the key to gain access to the Architect, the hall of doors blew up, meaning that having the key would be worthless anyways. Oh wait, you meant the key to the X-box?

Re: Can someon answer this question I've been havi

[rarose]

MS uses a layered crypto scheme...
1. At CPU reset a hidden ROM image inside the chipset decrypts the main BIOS flash image. This is the key Bunnie found.
2. The BIOS image then decompresses and decrypts the extended BIOS image using a key different from the one used in step 1.
3. This extended BIOS then loads the kernel from disk and validates it using yet another different key.
4. The kernel then uses yet another key to validate the games loaded off DVD-ROM. This would be the key everybody is after.

It got picked up by NSP.

[toothfish]

I don't know when this interview was actually published, but I think it must have been a while ago-- "Hacking the Xbox" was picked up by No Starch Press [nostarch.com], and it appears to be still published by them...

Re:It got picked up by NSP.

[mrseigen]

RTFA, there's a sidebar that says something to that effect.

Re:It got picked up by NSP.

[toothfish]

Oops. For what it's worth, I did RTFA, I just didn't RTFSB.

Buy the book and point out how wrong the DMCA is.

[jbn-o]

From the interview, Bunnie Huang said:

"I'm just waiting for someone to scan the book in and put the book on the Net in free electronic form. The book is Creative Commons Licensed, so you're free to do that. I'm not releasing the book on my own in an electronic format, at least for now, because I get better legal protections shipping real paper books than selling electronic books."

We should encourage people to buy the book in addition to getting their copy electronically (for those that haven't read the

Here is my problem wiht this:

[greymond]

ORN: So what have you been playing lately on your Xbox?

BH: Linux. I don't use my Xbox to play games.

I used to own a copy of Dead or Alive 3, but I gave that to a friend after I got bored of it. I also tried Halo once and bored of it pretty quickly. I tend to play the Nintendo GameCube the most; its games are the most fun. I am still working on beating the new Zelda.

Why would you buy one of these to put linux on? If your not playing games wiht it why not do one of the following:

1) Use a small older computer from ebay and install linux

2) Build a computer and install linux

3) Buy a PS2 with the Linux Kit

4) Buy a dreamcast and burn your linux boot cd

And even then WHAT IS THE POINT? It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?

And I still don;t see the use for it. What are you possibly going to do with Linux on an Xbox that you couldn't do with Linux on your computer?

enlighten me please.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[dismayed]

From the article:

"Normally I do a lot of technology development and consulting, primarily in the areas of embedded/portable systems, hardware, security, reverse engineering, and computer architecture,"

So, my guess is that running linux on the xbox is a novelty that happened with non-broken hardware after he was done reverse engineering it.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[Anonymous Coward]

"enlighten me please"

Let me enlighten you with this clue-bat.

*WHACK*

There. Good.

"It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?"

Sometimes good things come from tinkering. Sometimes they don't and seem pointless. For every good thing you hear about, you'll find 3-5 bad things that you don't.

Who knows. Maybe he learned alot about reverse engineering, its practice, and techniques. Maybe he can apply it to something else.

Maybe he can learn about s

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?

Not much of a hacker.. are you?

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[WhiteKnight07]

It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN...

Umm... yeah, very astute observation there. Thats why hackers do anything really...

and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?

What other reason do they need besides the fact that they can? Why do people climb mount everest, because its there.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[TClevenger]

And even then WHAT IS THE POINT? It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?

And I still don;t see the use for it. What are you possibly going to do with Linux on an Xbox that you couldn't do with Linux on your computer?

Because while your NES, Sega Master System and Atari 2600 went out with the trash when you were finally tired with them, an XBox can be modded and reused. Maybe by the time you're ready to junk it, you'll find you could really use a firewall, network storage appliance, Linux PVR, etc., and it'll get a second chance at life.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[afree87]

XBox as router.

Excellent!!

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[Anonymous Coward]

a few friends of mine in the school computer club are planning on installing linux on a somewhat borked XBox. we are doing this to demonstrate the flexibility of linux and get more people interested in it.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[Kittoa]

And even then WHAT IS THE POINT? It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?

That is the whole point, doing it because you CAN. Some people like the challenge involved, seeing if they can 'outsmart' the designers. Others just like to tinker with things.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[too_bad]

I believe XBOX is highly under-priced and hence the best power for price bargain. Hence the whole motivation of porting OS to XBOX. Believe me, a project as huge as linux-on-xbox and the developers as dedicated as these people dont just do it for the itch of it

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[AaronStJ]

WHAT IS THE POINT? It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?

Bingo. That is the point. We geeks hack x-boxes for the same reason people climb Mt. Everest. Because it's there, because we can hack it, and because we have fun doing it. There doesn't need to be any other reason.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[evilWurst]

"And even then WHAT IS THE POINT? It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?"

What, should they not? These guys aren't patching together corpses and giving them inhuman life. They're messing around with computer hardware. The most they'll get out of it is a funny looking computer. There are plenty of more dangerous hobbies you could be complaining about.

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[bschmitt]

Build a PVR? With the Video Output and built in HD....hmmmmm

Re:Here is my problem wiht this:

[TummyX]

1)Use a small older computer from ebay and install linux

2) Build a computer and install linux


They won't be as fast or as quiet or as compact, discrete and good looking.


Buy a PS2 with the Linux Kit

Buy a dreamcast and burn your linux boot cd

Won't be as fast.


And I still don;t see the use for it. What are you possibly going to do with Linux on an Xbox that you couldn't do with Linux on your computer?


You can leave it sitting in your living room. It looks great. It's not a replacement for your desktop computer. Unlike the PC equivalents, the software (Mame, Xbox media player etc) are all designed to be controlled using an xbox controller so the GUIs are much more appropriate and easier to use when you're sitting back on your couch.

Not everyone wants to huddle in front of a PC to watch a movie or play an arcade game.

This is why!

[roberri]

The debate on why you should bother modding an XBox comes up quite frequently, but most people can't seem to get pass the "Q: Why Bother A: WaR3z / Linux" debate. I use my modded XBox as a media player... and it really is very very good. All my MP3s and films (all legal of course!) sit on my pc and the media is streamed down to the XBox. The XBox, in turn, is plugged into my home cinema equipment via an optical connection. Since I don't own a dedicated DVD player or one of those fancy hifi mp3 players, the XBox does the job perfectly and with the added advantage that I can play games on the thing. Sure, I could use a shuttle pc or something, but why bother? An XBox, even included the cost of a mod chip and the remote control, is going to be much less than the cost of a "proper" peecee. Besides, its really nice having the remote control for it.

the cool thing is...

[focitrixilous P]

That Microsoft is losing money on every Xbox sold. Planning to make it up on game sales doesn't really work if people mod it for use as a home computer. What this will probably lead to is more expensive systems and less expensive games, which I don't really mind. If the DMCA prevents this, there is always a NES mod [implausible.net] or two to fool around with.
Will kernel 2.6 include Zapper support?
Would KDE or Gnome have cooler support for that...

True, but ...

[brokeninside]

1. I doubt very many people are buying it for the hack value given the low price of comparable hardware that doesn't need to be hacked.
2. It is neither here nor there to Microsoft if they make money on their first generation effort. They're in this game for market share going into the next generation.

Re:the cool thing is...

[focitrixilous P]

So true. Yet still, the fact they intentionally sell the things at a loss shows they have no qualms about running the competition out of the market by force.

whatever happend....

[MoP030]

I was just reminded of that story a while ago about these kids hacking the xbox and sorta trying to blackmail microsoft. Anyone know what happened?

Re:whatever happend....

[Absurd Being]

They "achieved the power of invisibility" for keeps. You ain't gonna hear from them again.

Is anyone else afraid?

[AstroDrabb]

I know I am. Think about what is really happening here. This bunnie guy is having a hard time publishing a book because of commercial interests. Doesn't anyone else think that this reflects a sad state in a nation when books are being "banned" for commercial interests? Three publishers are/were interested in the book. One turned him down and the other two need to do legal research to see if it "violates" the DMCA. How much longer until the book burning? The DMCA is nasty and NEEDS to go down.

Re:Is anyone else afraid?

[Myself]

Why not just move the research to Freenet? It has the tools for information sharing in a completely free environment. The Frost messageboard software, which runs on top of Freenet, already has an xbox board with some activity in it.

Re:Now in book form

[ozric99]

And my link doesn't even include referral attributes.

No, but it does include your Amazon account number... posted in a story about hacking too ;)

Re:Now in book form

[Pharmboy]

No, but it does include your Amazon account number... posted in a story about hacking too ;)

Thank you. You made my evening. Laughed my ass off. :D

Re:xbox is dead...

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

what about the gaming console for the Gay american? the XY Box?

Re:xbox is dead...

[Xerithane]

long live the ybox

I think the XX-Box is a lot more fun to play with.

(sorry)

Re:honestly... anyone clustering these for website

[fussman]

Yeah, I am. It works pretty good considering the hardware. I heard of a guy that constructed one for the college he was attending. I think it was in Kansas, but I am not entirely sure. The XBOX is a great thing to be using under linux.

Re:Xbox Live - Upgraded dashboard = antimod

[TummyX]

Or you could do a hardware mod with the latest chips that support turning themselves off using either switches or a special combination of button presses.