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Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

Experts Discuss Virtual Theft And Real Crime 49

Posted by simoniker from the time-to-get-out-the-virtual-handcuffs dept.
Harlequeen writes According to the BBC, police forces across the globe are looking into whether on-line theft in MMORPGs can be considered a real crime. A law expert called in by the BBC seems to think they can, but does virtual crime need real justice?" The piece takes earlier revelations about Korean cybercrime as a starting point, and Dr Roger Leng of the University of Warwick agrees that "the law has no problems treating the intangible as valuable", suggesting: "It's possible to steal any form of property right which is not represented by tangible objects."
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Experts Discuss Virtual Theft And Real Crime More

Experts Discuss Virtual Theft And Real Crime

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  • In an environment... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ieshan ( 409693 ) <ieshan@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @01:24AM (#7091349) Homepage Journal
    In an environment such as many RPGs create, "Thieves" are a class of characters. While I certainly don't support Grief-killing or otherwise, I think any legal team would have a hard time proving that the Thief class was not intended to steal, and therefore should violate any sort of law.

    Furthermore, since most EULAs include statements which claim the ownership of the content to be the company, players stealing from players is not stealing in the sense that property is physical changing ownership, because the company still owns it either way.

    • Steal this Post! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by sithkhan ( 536425 )
      Ummm ... I think they are referring to theft of actual items in the game by way of exploiting the software in a 'cracker'-type fashion, not in an RPG fashion. They seem to be interested in the cases where someone logs on, and their character's keep or whatever is gone, and the property of another player through an online auction, not in the sense that a 14th level thief picked the pocket of the character ... I hope this makes sense!
    • I agree if the item is "stolen" in the game within the rule set then that is probably not a crime.

      But just because the game company owns the item doesn't mean you don't have a right to use that item. If the company decided to delete the item, you may not have a claim. But if someone hacks your account and steals that item, I strongly believe you do have a legitimate claim. Instead of thinking of a magic item in the game, think of your apartment or a leased car. You don't own the car you lease, you don'

    • I'm not sure that the article intended to discuss in-game stealing, but I'll bite.

      It ought to be possible to handle in-game theft with in-game consequences. I don't have much experience with the latest crop of MMORPGs, but I'll draw on an example from Ancient Anguish [anguish.org], a MUD I used to play.

      In Ancient Anguish, thieves existed as a character class with the ability to do certain not-nice things to other characters, such as steal their items, poison food/heals, etc. However, just like in the real world, so

    • Either way I'm deleting all my Morrowind theives just to be safe...

      I'd hate to have to spend time in an English prison, all the boiled food would kill me :)

  • The game as it's own law (Score:2, Interesting)

    by swf ( 129638 )
    Couldn't the game itself be considered a law unto itself?

    Look at it this way, the game was created by code, a set of rules, which defines what can and cannot be done. When you play the game you are saying that you wish to obey these rules. You are saying that you want to play a character that can beat or be beaten by other players or NPCs. It's kind of like a contract between you and the game company.

    Then if your character has it's loot stolen it's not their fault. You decided to play a game which has rul
    • I think this is a testament to just how much a person can percieve a false reality as a true one. In our own reality, people questioned the rules. "I can kill, but is it right?" The rational assumption that just because something is possible does not make it acceptable. The same rationale is being applied to these virtual worlds by the players, "Just because they can steal, does that make it right?"

      Of course, it helps to have someone firmly planted in true reality to rationally sort out all this nonsense.
      • I'm in full agreement. IMHO, "virtual" crime that happens within the parameters of the game should be punished only within the confines of the game.

        If I hack the game and take your stuff, I'm criminally liable.
        If I beat your character up legitmately and take your stuff, I'm legally in the clear (but maybe the guards in the game engine then kick MY ass and give you your stuff back.)

      • As much as I would like to agree with you here something is missing.

        You see in the real world if you kill someone you goto jail and pay what ever price your culture puts on human life. In the game world you actually may get a status point, or a level up. If you steal your going to get punished, in the game you just got something cool with no down side.

        When you die in the real world, you die. In that game world you clone at the nearest waypoint, stargate, cloning facility...etc.etc. 95% of the time with al

  • FPS (Score:2, Funny)

    by demmegod ( 620100 )
    What's next? Could I be put on death row for killing my buddy in Halo?

  • Selling the Moon (Score:2, Interesting)

    by _Splat ( 22170 )
    Virtual objects are valuable because people pay for them. Simply having value, however, does not make property law apply to them. The owners of the game, of course, are effectively God and can do anything they want, including taking your objects or character. Since these objects aren't really 'yours', having them stolen is irrelevant. Selling virtual items is like selling land on the moon. You can do it, but simply giving money for something doesn't actually earn you any extra rights to that object.
    • But, let's say I created a moon land registry where I recorded who owned which bit of land on the moon (initially I gave all the land away, but a secondary market was soon created). All buyers could buy & sell these plots and I'd revise the registry appropriately. Now would it be theft if a sneaky burglar adjusted the registry (so that a plot of land worth a few million bucks was put in the name of someone who previously owned only a hundred bucks worth?

      Does it matter whether anyone can own land on the
      • Unless you claim to guarantee the integrity of the registry, I don't see how you'd be liable in such a situation. There are lots of things (stock option contracts, for example), that are never guaranteed to keep their value (If the stock goes below the strike price), yet there is still a huge market for them.
        • So....

          If the MMOG provider doesn't guarantee the integrity of the servers running the virtual world, are they liable because they failed to prevent a hacker from undetectably switching ownership of an item that just traded for $1,000,000 on eBay?

          • Re:Selling the Moon (Score:2, Interesting)

            by _Splat ( 22170 )
            Nope. No liability at all, unless the MMOG provider stated it in some sort of contract. And generally they won't, since they want to preserve their right to shut the game completely when they feel like it, essentially 'stealing' all items in the game (Though they now lack resale value). If the thief and seller on eBay are somehow working together though, an argument can probably made for fraud or something similar.

            In fact, the seller has much more of an obligation for making good on his sale than the gam

  • Differences (Score:2, Insightful)

    by hackwrench ( 573697 )
    There's a difference between stealing within the game environment and stealing by hacking a computer to get the game item. Where the line is drawn however is a good qeustion.

    • In-game vs hacking (Score:3, Insightful)

      by tessaiga ( 697968 )
      The article seemed pretty unclear about whether it was referring to in-game stealing or hacking. I'd guess the latter since there doesn't seem to be much of a case against the former: if you signed on for a game where they tell you up-front that some of the characters have thieving abilities, and you don't take the proper precautions, then you shouldn't be surprised when your items are stolen. Don't like it? Don't sign up for the game.

      Thieving via hacking is a whole 'nother story. This is a case of wh

    • I think if the action takes place entirely within the game universe, then no real crime has been comitted. If you're playing Everquest and you agree to pay some other character 50,000 gold pieces for a +5 Magic Moon Rock of Obfuscation, and you transfer the gold but don't get the item... too bad. Maybe your character can sue his character.

      On the other hand, if you win an Ebay auction for the same item, and pay him $50 American, and you don't get the item... then a law has clearly been broken.

      This see
      • You sell an item for real-life cash. Your character (who happens to be a thief) transfers the item, in-game, to the buyer. The thief (strictly within the context of the game) then steals the item back. Should you have a legal ground to get paid still (assuming you haven't already received your money)? If you have already been paid, should he have legal ground to get his money back?

        So, what if you wait a week before stealing the item back, does that change your answer?

        Note: I never said "DOES he have l
  • I think the caption from the first picture in the article highlights the answer.

    'Does might make right in online games?'

    Personally, yes I think so. So long as MMO games remain small and relatively undeveloped, the law would doing nothing but stepping into a giant pit of political arguments over online rights when MMO games develop past the 'basic level up and gain many powerful items' formula.

  • Fun questions.. (Score:3)

    by Creepy Crawler ( 680178 ) on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @01:57AM (#7091507)
    Is it illegal...

    1: To pickpocket an item in game to your char?
    2: To open a chest/drawer in a char's house?
    3: To trick user into doing something bad
    4: Threaten to PK them if they dont do X
    5: Blackmail information about ingame happenings
    6: Use a cheat that drops or transfers items
    7: Steal an in-game item being sold on Ebay
    8: Stealing an account password, transferring items and then logging out
    9: Plain stealing an account
    10 :Masquerading as user
    11: Stalking user
    12: Be an ingame harasser that accepts real money to leave alone .....

    And the list goes on.

    Boy, do I wish that there's some sort of sembalance of rules that can (or not) be applied to online games with realistic monetary systems.
    • Except for 6, 7, 8, 9 and maybe 10 (if it involves technical tricks to pull off), it's up to the game/server ops to control.

      If stealing player items is not permitted, then the game won't allow it. Same for PKing, gang warfare, etc. It's a multiplayer game for fucks sakes.. players who just want to hoard items all by themselves can play single player games. Playing online means dealing with other players, and if that means you have to join your own gang to fight off other gangs, that's the game.

      Next thi
    • Actually, I'd say 8, 9, and 12 would in all cases be criminal acts.

      As for the rest, you would have to be more specific about 3, 4, 5, 10, and 11 in order to know whether they were criminal.

      The rest would be up to the company running the game to police.

  • Shouldn't it be covered in the user agreement? I admit that this would make it an issue between the miscreant and the software company (and we all know they can't be bothered to follow up on cases where actual users incur actual losses vs. their own intangible rights or percieved potential profits)

    I'm surprised how many posts thus far seem to be confusing actions *within* the game with unauthorized access to an account or private resources (which is already a prosecutable crime)

    Stealing or temporarily usu

  • A solution (Score:4, Funny)

    by ColaMan ( 37550 ) on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @06:11AM (#7092208) Journal
    Give them online community service.
    100 hours of helping out n00bs will be enough to persuade even the most hardened criminal to repent.

  • Virtual justice for virtual crimes (Score:3, Insightful)

    by neglige ( 641101 ) on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @06:16AM (#7092227)
    I don't think it's logical to pursue a virtual crime, done in a virtual world, in real life. Note that this excludes hacking a server or a user account, which has to happen in the real world, and is therefore a matter of the "real world law".

    In a virtual world, the aim is - explicitly! - to create an experience not connected to real life. That's why people play online games, to escape (if you want to call it that) from real life, and do things they can't do in reality. It's the purpose and the gist of online games. So if (mis)behaviour online affects real life, you take away the basis for those games.

    Just to be clear, I don't think that running around PKing everyone (exception: FPS) and using rude language is ok. But if you misbehave online, it is sufficient to be banned from a server. No need to file a lawsuit.

  • Virtual law in a virtual world (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AllUsernamesAreGone ( 688381 ) on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @07:23AM (#7092441)
    I think I'm missing something here - virtually every RPG will have some class that could act as a police force right (guards for example)? If I steal something from someone in a virtual world and they find out it was me then I would expect the guards to be informed and take the necessary steps, and I would have to work harder to avoid the guards and, if caught, expect to be punished in some way (skill reduction, attack, whatever). If they don't find out it was me, I'd expect the guards to be informed of the theft and, if it happens regularly, I'd expect them to organise themselves to try and track down who was doing it.

    The virtual world shouldn't need the application of real world laws for virtual crimes because if it is working correctly it should create its own internal laws, enforced by the players or NPCs.
    • It's a good thought but it falls down on the basis of the article Slashdot posted a few days ago but I can't find: The reason guards will never truly form in a successful MMORPG is that the guards have no weapons.

      Don't let the profusion of "swords", "guns", "spells" or other "HP damaging" items fool you. "HP" is meaningless. There's nothing you can do to truly harm an antisocial person on an MMORPG, because the only weapons you have are social.

      How long would you be willing to be a guard, if "being a guard
  • ...if I win at Monopoly?
  • The article reads like it is mainly in game players roving around as thugs. If it is in game, I don't think that actions outside of the game universe should effect it. I think the solution would be to hire guards or taking Ankh Morpork example start paying the thief's guild protection money and make them responible. :)
  • Dr Roger Leng of the University of Warwick agrees that "the law has no problems treating the intangible as valuable".

    All I know is that I'd be very upset if the cops didn't have time to look for my stolen car because they were busy surfing eBay trying to locate someone's stolen +4STR Sword of Whoop-de-Doo.

  • Disagree with the law expert (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Jerf ( 17166 ) on Tuesday September 30, 2003 @10:05AM (#7093544) Journal
    I disagree with the law expert. MMORPG items and money may look like property but they fail a critical test: They require no effort from the MMORPG company to create or destroy.

    Property does not exist in a world where the president of the MMORPG company can wave his hand and become a "billionaire", or strip people of their possessions solely for the sake of plot. Or heck, just for fun for the programmers. For instance, when the Beta of an MMORPG ends, and all the chars are reset for the production release, if someone sued to get their Flaming Sword of Main Antagonist +34,532 back, would we think they had a case? (No.) What if in the new production version there was no Flaming Sword of Main Antagonist +34,532?

    Even "intellectual property", which I also think is a misnomer (though unfortunately I haven't yet published the part where I explain how we should think of it), at least requires effort to create. (It fails to be property in other ways, but not this one.)

    Moreover, I'm not aware of any property that can be legitimately destroyed legally by a simple server glitch. You can create "IP" and even if you do it on a computer and the computer crashes, you still theoretically have the rights to it (although you may not be able to exercise them); the crash destroyed your only copy of the work but not your rights, which is all you actually be said to "own". A computer glitch may convince the bank or the government you don't own your house when you do, but we still behave as if there is a higher "property"-ness, beyond just what records say; you'd have the right to correct these records, even government records. Also see squatting laws. For MMORPGs, if the property is destroyed via glitch, you have no recourse, not even in theory.

    Basically, it may look like property, and it may walk like property, but it does not quack like property. Therefore, it is not a duck. I mean, therefore, it is not property.
  • I think this is getting way out of proportion. People are getting way into these games. These games are made to be fun. When people are take is personaly its not a game anymore. Iv heard stories that people have commiteted suacide becase there char died in everquest. I agree that this is an "out" for some people but companies are going to have to take a deeper look at the way there games are affecting there players. What is this going to lead to...are there going to be the same laws in todays life in a game
  • First off, one person can't steal from another in-game because nobody owns anything. The company who made the game owns it all.

    Second of all, could you imagine the ramifications if this actually gained substance? I kill someone in PvP, loot their corpse, and instead of whining about griefing, the victim sues me? How silly.

    Third, the more interesting question (to me) involves slander (libel? whichever's verbal). Now I can see a provocative question.

    -Jeff
  • That's like saying that you should pay taxes on monopoly money.
  • How about virtual punishments for virtual crimes. In other words, hire a sheriff and string up the offenders ONLINE. No use appealing to another plain of existance just when you don't get your way. Does God strike you down with a lightning bolt cause you broke a law in the real world?

    As for those who lost stuff online: life's a bitch, deal with it.

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