Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
PC Games (Games) Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

Are MMORPGs Too Complex? 65

Posted by simoniker from the the-gumby-conundrum dept.
Thanks to Skotos for their column discussing whether MMORPGs are sometimes too complex for the average gamers. The writer suggests: "Often, I just want to sit down and do something simple and fun. Yet, the structure of most MMOGs doesn't accommodate this", and goes on to illustrate this, arguing "It seems like many MMOGs lately are tending more toward 'have fun doing your tax forms online while paying for it.'" The piece also discusses boredom: "How many MMOGs have the ability to mine/farm/fish/collect wood? How many are there in which this is NOT just a repetitive clicking of the mouse based on the computer response?", and putatively suggests a solution of "play[ing] Tetris to mine faster", coincidentally implemented by the recently launched Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Are MMORPGs Too Complex? More

Are MMORPGs Too Complex?

Comments Filter:

  • Trade Skills (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Lord_Dweomer ( 648696 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @12:33AM (#7375486) Homepage
    One of my favorite trade skill systems of all time was in the original UO. You didn't just mine the ore, you had to find the mountain that had it, then use the pick....then take the ore and smelt it into ingots, then smith it into something. This was fantastic from a graphical MMORPG standpoint. However, I've seen incredibly complex trade skill systems like Dragonrealms has...and even though I love the game to death....sometimes it just doesn't work...because you're not sure if you need to hammer something once or twice...and if you do it the wrong number it will break the item.

    The next MMORPG i make an investment in has to have an excellent trade skill system. And I don't mean just collect items, put them in a bag and hit combine. I want something as detailed as the one in ATitD, but simplified graphically (the GUI for some of the tradeskills in that game is very confusing at times).

    • One of my favorite trade skill systems of all time was in the original UO. You didn't just mine the ore, you had to find the mountain that had it, then use the pick....then take the ore and smelt it into ingots, then smith it into something.

      But you see what the article is talking about? User interaction is limited to making menu selections. Mountain X. Harvest with Y. Smelt At Z. 1% chance of success. The character gains skills, but the player never does. And without required player skill, a game
    • I think complexity from a game-player standpoint is something that most MMOGs do not suffer from. While I agree that execution of trade skills needs to be more interesting than 'click-fail-click-fail-click-fail-click-succeed- skill+1, I don't believe that alone will solve the problem. As many have said, content is what would make these games sufficiently complex to appeal to a larger audience. Here's something I haven't seen suggested before though, which I think might break the pattern of the leveling tr
    • I guess its preference, becase everything about UO annoyed me, including the trade skill system. Not that this is a slam on anybody else, but having to shear sheep, etc, didnt seem heroic or interesting, two things I look for in adventure games.

      Also, the whole MMO thing just really doesnt excite me either; its probably because Ive been playing single player RPG games since "Adventure" for the Atari, and actually having someone else there doesnt add anything to the game.

      My opinion? Both the MMO aspect and

    • Real geeks are writing code, not playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs are for the fucking wankers who don't produce anything, just like these jackasses who post on Slashdot all day that don't get any real work done.
      • Someone with mod points please mod him troll. Thank you.

        • Someone with mod points please mod him troll. Thank you.

          Is that all you got to say? Why don't you try arguing the point I made rather than just saying mod me down? Your useless off-topic message does not add anything to the discussion.

          I happen to know several people whose lives have gone to waste because of MMORPGs. One of these individuals is unemployed, wakes up at 8PM every day, and starts playing a MMORPG until he goes to sleep in the afternoon, only to wake up hours later to start the cycle again
          • I won't argue your point solely because as a troll, that is your desired result. I will state however that I know many successful people who play MMORPGs, including myself in the past. Just because you know people who have no self-control does not mean that that is the rule. Like all other potentially addictive things, when done in moderation, they can be beneficial and entertaining. It is only when you have weak willpower that it becomes a problem.

  • the answer: (Score:2, Insightful)

    by OwlofCreamCheese ( 645015 )
    the answer is no. people for now play the games. no game will please all players, for now there is a market that stays in buisness selling complex MMORPGs

  • fishing! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fireduck ( 197000 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @12:45AM (#7375526)
    altough not an MMORPG by any means, I could sit down and fish for hours in Zelda 64. The fishing had very little to do with completing the actual game, but it was done in such a way that it was quite addicting and rewarding. wasn't just a "push button to cast, push button to reel in", but the camera followed the lure as it sank into the water, giving a nice visual of the size of fish nearby. Catching was just as fun, as you had to wiggle the lure just enough to draw the fish attention, but not so much to scare him.

    Whenever i got stuck in the game, or was slightly bored, fishing always was a good way to pass some time in a very enjoyable manner. the inclusion of little things like this could potentially get me interested in a mmorpg. weekly bass fishing tournaments; with the trolls doing a little spearfishing.

    • SWG Fishing (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Allen Varney ( 449382 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @01:46AM (#7375738) Homepage

      For Sony's Star Wars: Galaxies MMORPG, programmer Ryan Palacio was seized by weird inspiration and, while no one was looking, created the most in-depth fishing simulation for any online RPG. It's quite amazing.

      In SWG you can fish in most any sizable body of water, but different parts of a given lake provide better fishing at different times of day. The fish you catch vary by planet, of course, but also by region of the planet, and they have different nutritional characteristics. Very rarely you hook, not a fish, but some item from the game's spawn tables -- not lightsabers or Imperial AT-AT walkers, but just about anything else you can get or make in the game, including droids. There is no Fisher class, but it's possible to make a living fishing.

      Ryan's managers were a bit bemused when he revealed the full extent of the fishing simulation. But ultimately they shrugged and said, "Well, why not?"

      As with most any system in an online game, some players loved the system passionately and wanted even more detail. I don't know whether Ryan ever got around to expanding the fishing system, but I hope so. He seemed to really enjoy doing it.

      • In SWG you can fish in most any sizable body of water, but different parts of a given lake provide better fishing at different times of day.

        I've seen where different places have a higher/lower fish density, but I've never seen this density vary by time of day.

        The fish you catch vary by planet, of course, but also by region of the planet,

        I've gotten all seven varieties of fish standing in one spot. I understand that up until recently, the fish are the same on all planets.

        and they have different nut

    • Re:fishing! (Score:2, Funny)

      by siobHan ( 26220 )
      Hey, I hear they are beta-testing a real-world version of this "fishing" thing. I wonder if it will be as effective at passing time and relaxing people.

      K
    • Mini Games are a must . Gambling , Fishing , Hunting (not for XP or Combat) , card games , etc... would keep people online with RPGs. there.com is pretty user end controlled & the whole game is like one big "mini" game. I mention there.com because in general its way ahead of the pay-to-clicky-clicky-kill games of EQ , AC etc... but very easy user controller economy unlike EVE Online (which shoulda been called Trade Wars Online , now in SPACE!) MMORPG needs to be easier to play & they need to have e
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Dark Cloud 2 also had a fun fishing engine. Better than LoZ, I'd certainly say. You had to be careful so that you didn't yank the hook out, which took patience, but if you didn't act fast enough, the fish would wear down the line and it would snap. Definitely a lot of fun. It was pretty easy to level up in DC 2, but if fishing is a valid means of earning one's livelihood in an RPG, by all means, make the leveling requirements more strict.

  • AC 2 (Score:4, Interesting)

    by shaka999 ( 335100 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @12:49AM (#7375539)
    I think Asheron's Call 2 is a good indication of what happens when you try and DUM things down too much. The game wasn't any fun and is pretty much a failure.
  • Are you asking me? Uh, sure, they are.

  • Not complex enough: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eliza_effect ( 715148 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @01:05AM (#7375587)
    Actually, the problem that I run into more often than not if that the skill systems aren't complex ENOUGH. When I raise a level in a skill, I want it to be because I actually learned and got better at something. As it stands, most MMOGs use the model of "try, try again," where, for example, in smithing, you WILL break the item, or create something entirely useless on your first, oh, 20 tries. While 20 may not seem like much, when the process takes maybe 5 minutes each time, and costs you (fake) money every time, it gets very annoying quickly. On the other hand, if I had figured out what was going wrong on the 3rd try, and changed my process, I could be making the desired item more effectively and quickly. Of course, that's entirely moot if the key is something simple that everyone could figure out relatively quickly (or look up somewhere online, in guide-form), but the time-sink isn't a very good alternative.
    • "When I raise a level in a skill, I want it to be because I actually learned and got better at something. "

      You've hit the nail on the head. Very well written BTW. I will expand a little further.

      Games have tried to create systems where you have to learn something to advance. Asheron's Call's spell system anybody? THe problem is that it really only takes ONE person to learn it for everybody else, because the knowledge appears on a website shortly thereafter. Now, you could just not look at the website,

      • GAH! I play MMORPGs because I HATE twitch gaming. I'm sick and firggin tired of it. Its been twitch since the time I was 5 til now. I just can't get excited by wether or not I can hit a button combo quicker than someone else anymore. I realisticly cannot think of anything more boring.

        Thats why I like MMORPGs. The combat, tradeskills, etc are strategic, not twitch. Skill is measured by knowing wether to use your powers, and when (but not when as in mash the buttons now, but when as in what part of co
        • Where is the fun factor in spending an hour to analyze the character creation system, design a character, spend hours playing, then realize that the character is gimped in some way and start all over again? I'd like to see MMORPGs move away from stats being all-important. Not that I want there to be less skills in the world, just not require I put exactly so many points in this skill to gain this other one. If I'm deficient in an area, allow me to improve without having a gimped character later on.

          I thi
          • I like math. I like logic puzzles, which is what stats are- a combo of those two. Creating a character and thinking up new ways of combining skills is FUN. Moving your mouse ebcause someone decided that you should have to sit there and do it, and having a chance to lose hard earned items by not doing it fast enough, in the perfect direction, or screw up some other ways would be fucking annoying.
      • What I think will help solve the problem of "raising a skill by actually getting better at it" would be the incorporation of some twitch-gaming mixed in with the traditional MMORPG-gaming. What if you had a simulation of an actual hammer and the item you were trying to forge? What if you had to figure out where to hit it, how hard to hit it, and how long to let it cool? What if you had to actually move the hammer with the mouse?

        Now apply this to other trade skills. It then becomes a challenge of not just l
        • If I could click on things more accurately than others, I could make up some of the deficency created because I'm level twenty and my opponent is level thirty but not as good clicking. I'm guessing you don't like most golf games because you have to time your shots or movements? I'd like to see a MMORPG where my sword battles and parries were driven by my mouse movements. May the best swords/mouseman win. Ever play "Pirates! Gold"? The swashbuckling used the numpad and was quite fun for me. I didn't ha
    • Depending on my mood I may swap games. I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect one game to guess what mood you're in and somehow magically swap modes a la screen saver at the correct time.

      That being said there's a class of game that I don't see too often.

      Of all the games I've played, one that I enjoyed the most was Dungeon Master 25 years ago.

      The various scenarios you went through gradually taught you what the physics engine did etc.

      You'd often solve problems by suddenly realising that 'maybe th

    • ...for example, in smithing, you WILL break the item, or create something entirely useless on your first, oh, 20 tries. While 20 may not seem like much, when the process takes maybe 5 minutes each time, and costs you (fake) money every time, it gets very annoying quickly. On the other hand, if I had figured out what was going wrong on the 3rd try...

      Something in the game needs to facilitate apprenticeship since most geeks will not think of it on their own. Their online persona if the intelligence is high

  • Never will be mainstream (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Godeke ( 32895 ) * on Monday November 03, 2003 @01:19AM (#7375634)
    I really doubt that MMORPGs will ever become mainstream, at least not the UO, Everquest, combat heavy ones. Having programmed MUDs back in the day, these exact discussions came up all the time, and the reality is that there are many flavors of gamers, and different games will appeal to different subsets. However, the "mainstream" gamer just flat out doesn't have time or interest to invest in a MMORPG.

    I did have some hope that the Sims might be innovative enough to pull in the casual gamer, but it didn't happen. It appears that the "casual" gamer is happier with a chat window they can minimize when their boss/spouse/parent/etc walks by more than they want a full screen gui. Why? Because casual gamers see right trough the "game" (which doesn't interest them) and realize instinctively that this is a very attractive chat room.

    Puzzle Pirates frankly has more hope because it plays on the favorite things of the casual gamer. Chatting and simple puzzle games. Popcap + AIM. Most "hardcore" gamers would prefer to be kneecapped than be caught playing something like that though, so I doubt the gaming press will see it for what it is.
    • Puzzle Pirates frankly has more hope because it plays on the favorite things of the casual gamer. Chatting and simple puzzle games. Popcap + AIM. Most "hardcore" gamers would prefer to be kneecapped than be caught playing something like that though, so I doubt the gaming press will see it for what it is.

      Puzzle Pirates is doomed amongst hardcore gamers for a few reasons, including the java issue and the lack of 3D, but the biggest is that the female population exceeds 50%.
  • no.

  • Boring (Score:2, Interesting)

    by magiluke ( 629097 )
    I have played a few MMORPGs in my days, and I find that many of them just get boring after a while. It's all about just leveling and finding new items (although I do admit that I am pretty intrigued by the economies that exist in these games). I just get bored and don't feel like playing after a while. For me, it's not the fact that they are too simple or too complex; after all some of the simplist games are the funnies, and some of the most complex games are just as equally fun. I am scared away from these
  • MMORPGs are RPGs played online. RPGs are designed to be complex.
    the ones which are NOT complex are the rare ones because the genre is not looking for simplicity - it CRAVES complexity. You are playing the wrong genre and not looking hard enough for the niche game to fit your needs. Don't bend the genre, use your noodle!

    World of Warcraft / Toon Town is designed for simplicity - you will like that, everything else is for ME not you. Or get a 3d chat room.

  • Negative Complexity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Aoreias ( 721149 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @03:43AM (#7376068)
    Back when I played ATITD, one of the activities that always needed to be done was create charcoal. Charcoal making consisted of sitting at an oven, and adding wood or water, and changing the ventilation on the oven. Your skill at how well you could do these things directly affected how quickly you made the charcoal, and how much wood it took you.

    Problem was, everyone hated to do it. Something about how it required attention and was a bit stressful made it entirely unappealing.

    Perhaps what we really need isn't mini-games, but using other aspects of the game like exploring in order to be more effective.

  • Games are storytelling (Score:5, Insightful)

    by amorsen ( 7485 ) <benny+slashdot@amorsen.dk> on Monday November 03, 2003 @03:54AM (#7376090)
    You rarely read a book with page after page detailing how the main character fetches wood in the forest. That is the kind of thing the character should do when the player is not online.
    • I like to look at MMOGs like they are - or should be - living worlds. Instead of PCs "gathering wood while offline", I prefer the notion of NPC hirelings to do "boring, tedious" stuff.

      In my opinion, there are basically two ways to do things in life - learn how to do it yourself, or pay someone else to do it. Being taught how to do something falls into the "pay someone" category, imho, and basically should jump you past the "boring, tedious" step of tradeskills. Ideally, the "masterwork" sections should

  • Complex Only for Addicts, Simple For Casual Gamers (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Shihar ( 153932 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @04:02AM (#7376110)
    MMORPGs are simple. They are for the most part very simple. The thing is that people are so desperate to get an edge that they take mind numbingly simple game mechanics and try and combine them in a way that is complex to get a small advantage. The game is still simple though, and for people not looking to min/max, most MMORPGs are less stimulating then minesweeper. This is, in my opinion, why many people don't like MMORPGS (myself included). The mechanics are deathly simple and boring, and I simply don't care enough to try and manipulate the game in absurd ways to get some small advantage.

    MMORPGs need MORE complexity. With more complexity they could be interesting to play. Instead of string together simple and boring game mechanics together to try and create something complicated, people could find complexity and intrigue that they are looking for without having to go hunt it down. Complexity in most MMORPGs is deeply hidden and will require levels of tedium that the average sane player is simply not willing to put up with to find. If the complexities are clear and out in the open, then the masses will find these games as interesting as the guy who sets all his skills just so with tedious precision to get a certain effect.

    MMORPGs are complex if you are willing to endure untold amounts of tedium to find that complexity. If you are not willing to put up with that level of tedium to find the complexity then the game is simple and boring. MMORPGs need to bring their complexity to the forefront of the game and make it accessible to everyone, not just the one addict who is willing to divine the games damage formulas to do the most possible amount of damage. Bring complexity to a place where you don't have to be an addict to find it, and people will start to play these games casually. Until this happens no sane person is going to shell out money for a boring and simple game that any monkey could play.
  • If the tasks were simple and easy like the average gamer wants then the games could be mastered in a short period of time like a couple months (like those the average gamer plays).

    This isn't valid for the audience that plays these games (largely consisting of old AD&D'ers moving to digital form). AD&D was too complex for the average video gamer and hence these games will be too. To be honest these games are far simpler than their old pen and paper counterparts.

    From a business prospective it makes
  • Here's the REAL goal list, let's see what the /. community can think of on those points.

    There's an enoumous drive for skill points in these games. Those are likely valued higher than money, and a more stable (albeit untradable) property. Since people excert so much energy to boost their stats (or gain money), why not take a ride on this and turn the stat/money acquiring process into:

    a. Something that is actually productive in the real world. Manually decrypting 3DES, I dunno :-P. If you manage this on
  • Did anyone ever play that? It was a really simple, really fun, multiplayer game (the 20-50 people that played each game is massive enough for me). Basically you picked one vehicle from C&C, and your job was to destroy everyone else in that particular game (oh yeah, and collect power-ups to help you). The games were really short, and I think the only drawback of it was that back then very few people wanted to pay for a game that you could only play on the internet, and games like that require a lot of

  • Sigil (Score:2, Informative)

    by Daelos ( 716311 )
    For some serious, insightful discussion on how to create good MMO(RP)G's. Pitfalls to avoid, what players like, what players think they like but should actually be avoided etc etc, Sigil Games [sigilgames.com] has a very good community. Visit their forums here [sigilgames.com]!

    (These are the guys who made the original EverQuest, for the most part)
  • Button mashing and time sinks are both terrible attributes of most MMORPGs I've seen and played.

    Button mashing doesn't specifically refer to "Click the button as fast as you can," but refers to the one-click playstyle of most games, which, in a real time environ, can be exceptionally bad for people with substandard connections (lag). On top of that, your only primary advantage over many game's enemies is your ability to spam spells over and over again.

    What we need is a more turn-based game which facilitat
  • Whats being complained about is one of the things that defines the type of game they're complaining about.

    There's no way this story would have gotten any airtime if the complaint had been "There's too much physics in flight simulators!" but in essence, thats what this one is.

    Lets take a look a couple of his points -

    1 - He doesn't like the complexity... too complex. Complexity comes from flexibility and choice. The more choices, the more varied the result is going to be. 2^n.

    They're designing worlds f

  • For casual gamers (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Hecubas ( 21451 ) on Monday November 03, 2003 @11:36AM (#7377606)
    There's always Diablo II, seriously. There's really no commitment (money or timewise) and you can always save and exit in a pinch. It was a great game when I had only have 15-20 minutes to play at a time, and levels and loot came quickly. That was pre 1.10 patch, so "quickly" in hell mode might be incorrect.

    --
    hecubas
  • My main fear about joining an MMOG is that I'll make friends, then ditch them for my real friends, and then everyone will hate me because I chose RL over the fake one. So I'd probably have more fun in a game where working together isn't that important.

  • They're not too complex, but you can't enter into the game later, as established players will have corporate knowledge that you won't.

  • underneath a hundred million formulas stats abilities and attributes, everything boils down to a handful of optimal strategies. all the complexity boils down to nothing.

    the problem is that games arent complex enough for there to be real game dynamics.
  • To complain that MMORPG'a or even MMOG's in general are too complex is like complaining that your new car has too many buttons.

    Yeah, sure there are a couple of fantasy online games out there that can be complex, but it's like anything else, if you find it too hard, don't play it. I'm sure you can play chess or checkers online.
  • What I tend to find is that most RPGs, not just MMORPGs have high mind goals. Yet, when you break the game down to a series of steps it follows one of two paths.

    1) The Fetch Mission. Go to person. Get mission. Kill something the way to point X. Get object at point X. Kill something on the walk back from point X to person. Give object to person. Person thanks you and gives you something.

    Should this get old.

    2) Level. Go to woods. Find something to kill. Kill it. Get points. Repeat. At such time as you leve
    • --Ever played Fallout? Even in the original DOS version, there was (at least?) 1 place where you could keep killing a certain beast, but you had to watch your radioactivity. If you hit "sleep" for 24 hours and got radioactive, you could wake up sick or even dead.

      --There should be a penalty of some kind for easy, repetitive stuff like that in games.
  • MMORPGs are fun for me when I believe in the world. Eq is the only game that ever did that for me and I loved it.

    I stopped playing for the same reason: things came along and broke my belief. The character models changed totally modifying how I looked. A lot of people left to go to DAOC making the world feel a lot less permanent (real) than before.

    Make me believe in a virtual world and give me things to do, fun people to hang out with and that's just fine.

    Complexity/levelling/etc. I was an enchanter an

Slashdot Top Deals

UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn

Close