Refunding an Xbox Live Annual Renewal Fee? 196
craigandthem is curious about the following: "Recently, I was going over my credit card statement, and noticed a charge I didn't remember making. After investigating, I determined that it was an auto-renewal for my Xbox Live account (for an Xbox that hasn't worked in months). I called to have the fee refunded, and Microsoft refused. They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed, I was not eligible for a refund. The problem lies in that they didn't charge my credit card until December 26, despite renewing my account on November 15. I feel that this was done to increase the odds that I'd only be aware of the charge after it was too late to have reversed. They also claim I had fair warning I was going to be charged, since they sent me an email detailing my upcoming renewal. The email was sent to an old university account, which was de-activated after I graduated, and therefore never received. Have any fellow Slashdot readers received similar treatment, and if so, were you able to recover your money? Legally, is it my obligation to keep my Xbox Live information up to date to avoid this dilemma?"
check those credit card statements! (Score:5, Informative)
Whenever you see something you don't recognize (or in this case, didn't expect), immediately, or the next morning, call the responsible party (Microsoft). Do what you can to resolve the issue.
If you can't resolve the issue, because of *your* screwup (which might be the case, since Microsoft made the rules pretty clear I think), then too bad.
But if you still think you have a "case", immediately *WRITE* the credit card company a concise letter describing the problem. There are usually instructions on the back of the statement.
I have found that most of these things are quickly resolved by the credit card company. The merchants do not like chargebacks or investigations from the credit card companies and will solve the problem pretty quick.
In your situation, you *may* get results if you insist, calling several times over a few days, talking to different people, and generally being firm. But if you don't, you can't really press the issue because you didn't act immediately.
This is really not an issue with Microsoft or the Xbox service. It happens with anybody that wants your money.
Be sure to read all your agreements, and if they have deadlines, put them in your calendar! (i.e., Xbox auto-renews in 30 days, 15 days, tomorrow).
Good luck!
With the contracts they set... (Score:4, Informative)
Unfortunately I'm guessing it is, though I've never looked at the XBox agreement contract in particular. It's just that ToS agreements tend to thoroughly cover all such bases. For example, when you have a Paypal account you "waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase using your credit card and PayPal account" (or...at least according to paypalsucks.com). Though, I'll admit I tend to just press "I Agree" and not worry about it; if they actually abused such contracts consumers would revolt...right?
Challenge it with the Credit Card Company (Score:2, Informative)
Once it's been challenged, it is up to the vendor (Microsoft) to verify with the credit card company that you really did authorize the charge.
In most cases, this won't happen, you'll never have to pay the bill, and it will go away.
Charge That Sucker Back (Score:4, Informative)
A charge-back is basically where the credit card company refunds a charge to a customer by withholding (current or future) funds from a merchant. Credit card companies hold a surprisingly large amount of power over merchants, even one such as MS.
The way a charge-back works is a customer tells the credit card issuer that they are disputing a charge, gives the reason for the dispute, and states that they have tried in good faith to resolve the dispute with the merchant but have been unsuccesful.
The credit card company will review your information, and more than likely, issue a credit to your next statement.
Look for a "Fraud / Lost or Stolen Card" number on the back of your card, and give them a call. If that call center doesn't handle those issues they can direct you quickly to who can.
When you talk to the right person, be rational, be reasonable, and don't ask for Gates' head on a stick sharpened on both ends. Simply ask them to charge the X-Box subscription back to MS because you were billed for a service you never received, and MS refuses to come to an amicable resolution.
It sounds like you have a pretty solid case. Good luck!
- Neil Wehneman
It sounds to me like they gave you ample warning (Score:5, Informative)
Either way, when you entered in the access code, postal address, email address, and CC # the Live! system put up a big full screen text window on your TV that said (paraphrasing), "Your account is good for X days from today. If you don't cancel your account before then it will be automatically renewed and your CC will be charged."
They then warned you of the impending CC charge via email. That you didn't update your email address with them isn't their fault, it's yours.
Bottom line - You agreed to the Terms of Service. You agreed to allow Microsoft to charge your CC for a yearly renewal, you didn't cancel by the date specified, and you didn't provide Microsoft with current contact information.
Next time you should remember when you enter into a revolving service contract that the bill will come due at some point unless you take responsibility for cancelling the service if you no longer need or want it.
Tell your credit card company (Score:3, Informative)
The few times I've done this (with American Express) I've gotten the charges refunded with very little work on my part. YMMV, but it has a good shot of working, and it puts the onus on MS Live to get the money rather than on you.
Chargeback! (Score:4, Informative)
If you're real anti-MS, you can probably call your Better Business Bureau and get them involved first, since it sounds to me like you have a pretty reasonable case against them.
Call your credit card company (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway apparently one of those spams they sent me was a reminder that they were going to autorenew my membership (which I had forgotten i had even had). So I called them up to complain and they were all "Did you read the terms of service?" well, yes -- A YEAR AGO. The operator game me additude. I hung up called my credit card comapany told them i didn't want to pay that charge. Blingo, charge was erased from my bill.
Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (Score:5, Informative)
Find a license agreement (even if you have to go to a store that will let you read one). It's like a lot of services and automatically renews. On any service like this, once you sign up and pay, it is up to you to cancel. The fact that you didn't cancel it, give them an updated e-mail addy, or check your bill when it came in is your fault.
I wish I could say this is another cause of Microsoft giving customers the shaft, but I can't when you ignored your responsibilities.
I will say, as someone who tried MSN, that Microsoft does make it tough to cancel, often requiring passwords you may have forgotten, or specifically notifying them at least 60 days before renewal, but, again, most services automatically renew. It's their way of increasing income. A lot of services count on people forgetting to cancel accounts, which is what you did. Multiply that by hundreds or thousands of accounts with only a small fraction forgetting to cancel their subscription, and you can see the profit can mount up for them.
Re:Charge That Sucker Back (Score:3, Informative)
One credit card I really like is the Sears Card (not the in store card, but the MasterCard one). Their website fully explains to you all the details of chargebacks, and even provides a web form to automatically generate a letter you can print out and mail to handle chargeback issues.
Re:Charge That Sucker Back (Score:3, Informative)
Call first. Demand a chargeback. Explain why. If they say OK, great. If they say they need a letter, write a letter, but the CC companies do just about everything over the phone, and almost definitly will accept verbal orders for the chargeback.
Chargeback rights (Score:5, Informative)
You're probably curious about chargeback rights. This is where you talk to your bank, explain why you believe that charge wasn't fair or valid, and ask them to get your money back. I'm going to describe these chargeback rights.
"Merchant" means a business who is charging your card. "Cardholder" is you. "Issuer" is the bank that issued your card.
The merchant must have given you prior notice that they were going to bill you. I'm not familiar with the terms & conditions you agreed to, but they may have given you this notification when you signed up.
If you called and cancelled the service within a reasonable amount number of days before you were billed, and they still charged you, AND you haven't received any material goods or services from them, you can charge the sale back.
Also if you never received notification that they were going to charge your account again, you can charge the sale back.
You probably can't charge the sale back claiming that they never provided the goods or services you requested. They will probably claim that your account has been capable of logging in and accessing the service, so they will argue that meets their fulfillment obligations.
I'll refer you to my company's "Chargeback Case Studies" section of its web site. http://www.foomp.com [foomp.com] -- click on "REFERENCE DESK" at the top center, then click "Fraud & Loss" at the fourth link down in the body of the page. This section of the site describes the common chargeback reasons, and gives a case study for each chargeback type. This list doesn't include all of the rare chargeback types out there, but it's most of the common ones.
Keep in mind you can't argue a chargeback case like a lawyer. You can't say you called him to cancel...and you already returned the merchandise...and you never received the merchandise...and you've never heard of this merchant before now. You must pick one reason and go with it. If you pick a weak chargeback reason and the chargeback is reversed, you may not get another chance to file another chargeback with a different reason. (You will probably be allowed to rebut the merchant's allegations, making this a 'second chargeback'.)
If you feel you're entitled to a chargeback (because you read about a chargeback case study very similar to your situation) but your bank insists you cannot charge the sale back, the bank may be in violation of Visa/Mastercard regulations. If you feel they are, complain to Visa or Mastercard. You could find out the bank was right all along -- or the bank could find out you were right. If the bank was in error, they could be fined by Visa/Mastercard or (in VERY extreme cases) have their rights to issue those cards revoked.
The opinions expressed above are mine, and not necessarily those of my employer. We are an "acquirer" -- we provide services to merchants, so we're used to helping businesses who are on the defending side of chargeback disputes. Acquirers don't usually go around giving customers advice anyway.
--Michael Spencer
Acutally, this just happened with me (Score:4, Informative)
I noticed in December a charge on my CC from Microsoft Online Services. I was quite surprised as, like you, i had not used X-Box live for several months (read 8), and had expected to be involved in any sort of re-bill process (ie a message on the X-Box). The whole Live! sign up process was very difficult, with a whole heck of a lot of questions, and I was under the impression that they took down my CC only to confirm i was age for some of the content. I found it ludicris that I needed to give my CC# to the company whose service I had already paid for at the store...
I caught it quicker than you did, and called them in December and spoke to someone there (3 forwards and 20 minutes on hold later) who eventually relented and offered a refund. I waited over a month and saw nothing on my CC. So I called back on the 3rd, spoke to someone else who said that they had cancelled the service, I had a credit on my account, but they wern't actually planning on sending that refund to my card. After more haggling, more hold time etc, they agreed to refund my card.
All in all X-Box Live! was a difficult, expensive service to sign up for with unclear purchasing terms. I'm not happy with it, but I should have my money back soon....
Re:With the contracts they set... (Score:3, Informative)
Fortunately, you can't necessarily just "waive your rights" to protection under law, no matter what you sign. I'd be skeptical about PayPal's ability to enforce that one.
In this case, the guy probably can get the credit card company to issue a chargeback pending an investigation. If Microsoft doesn't decide to be generous, though, I'd be amazed if the credit card issuer doesn't reinstate the charge.
Re:Call your credit card company (Score:1, Informative)
Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (Score:5, Informative)
That's a load of horse sh*t.
It's like how the gyms that require you to notify them in writing by snail mail to cancel your account. There's a reason why people have been taking them to court and winning, it's underhanded.
Unfortunately, it's not so easy to do something about. If you used a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), it should be relatively easy to get the charge cancelled, like mentioned in an earlier post. If not, stop by at your local court house and pick up a small claims form. Specify the amount as $70 (Xbox fee) + ~$100 (your time and effort coming to court), and most likely they'll refund it before the court date comes, or they won't even show up, which means you win by default. (It's not worth their money to fight it.)
Use the court system to your advantage, for once, and put them in the same positiion that they put small companies, i.e. the settlement is worth less than their legal fees... Total cost to you? Somewhere between $2 and $15
Re:Yeah, MS is bad, but it's not 100% their fault. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:You, sir, are an asshat. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:check those credit card statements! (Score:2, Informative)
Refund Information on XBox Support (Score:2, Informative)