Refunding an Xbox Live Annual Renewal Fee? 196
craigandthem is curious about the following: "Recently, I was going over my credit card statement, and noticed a charge I didn't remember making. After investigating, I determined that it was an auto-renewal for my Xbox Live account (for an Xbox that hasn't worked in months). I called to have the fee refunded, and Microsoft refused. They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed, I was not eligible for a refund. The problem lies in that they didn't charge my credit card until December 26, despite renewing my account on November 15. I feel that this was done to increase the odds that I'd only be aware of the charge after it was too late to have reversed. They also claim I had fair warning I was going to be charged, since they sent me an email detailing my upcoming renewal. The email was sent to an old university account, which was de-activated after I graduated, and therefore never received. Have any fellow Slashdot readers received similar treatment, and if so, were you able to recover your money? Legally, is it my obligation to keep my Xbox Live information up to date to avoid this dilemma?"
Get the BBB involved (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Submit a Better Business complaint in from the website www.bbb.org
2. Dispute this fee with your credit card company. Explain to them everything you just told us.
3. Sit back and watch the 2 big companies battle it out.
A company simply can not charge you for services you no longer need. Just because it's their policy to charge you doens't mean that it was legal or even that it was morally right. Once you involve the BBB into something that is questionable they seem to make the company turn itself around.
Sorry (Score:-1, Insightful)
At least pro-rate... (Score:1, Insightful)
Since XBOX's have unique identifiers, how hard is it for them to find out in their logs, the last time you used it anyways.....
You, sir, are an asshat. (Score:5, Insightful)
You: "Hey, I didn't use my wireless phone at all this month - why are you charging me for it?"
Phone company: "You initiated service with us, agreed to the service contract and set up auto-pay using your credit card number."
You: "But you never sent me a paper bill to my new address!"
Phone company: "Oh, so you moved without telling us? How were we supposed to send you the auto-bill receipts if you didn't tell us when you moved?"
You: "This fucking sucks! I'm going to post on Slashdot!"
Stop whining. You are responsible for your neglegence - not Microsoft. You *asked* them to charge you.
Moral of the story is: Don't buy shit you're not going to use, then act all suprised when you actually have to pay for it.
Yeah, MS is bad, but it's not 100% their fault... (Score:1, Insightful)
What you can do now: dispute the charges with your bank/CC company. Or keep calling MS and hope you get a sympathetic person on the phone.
What to do next time: Read your statements more than once a year. Make sure you cancel any renewing accounts that you aren't using (mark it in a calendar if you need to).
And yes, it is your responsibility to keep your info up to date. MS (and any other company you do business with) has no idea when you change emails, phone numbers, or addresses unless you tell them. And if you forget to tell them, it's hardly their fault that they can't remind you to cancel that account you're not using or they'll renew it.
Re:Get the BBB involved (Score:4, Insightful)
Submit a Better Business complaint in from the website www.bbb.org
I'm sure this would not be the first contact Microsoft has had with the Better Business Bureau. They probably won't run and cower.
Dispute this fee with your credit card company.
Disputing the fee may work, but... it's messy. The credit card companies tend to favor the consumer in disputes, but it may not be worth the massive headache to the consumer over the money. (What kind of money are we talking about here? How much does Xbox Live cost, anyways?)
A company simply can not charge you for services you no longer need.
A company can, in fact, charge you for services you no longer need, if you agreed to those terms in the first place.
Just because it's their policy to charge you doens't mean that it was... morally right.
This matters how?
Let's face it, folks, the guy's on shaky ground here-- he should have acted sooner. No matter how satisfying it may be to have one more way story that points out Microsoft screwing the little guy, that's not the dynamic at play.
Just dispute the charges, but HURRY UP! (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, call your credit card company/bank RIGHT NOW and dispute the charges. You'll probably be fine.
Legally speaking, he short answer is this: if you clicked "I agree" to anything, you're technically bound by it, so long as it is legally enforceable in your state. If the agreement said they were going to charge you, it's not their responsibility to track you down and remind you of it; you've already agreed once. If however, they sent you an e-mail saying that they were going to charge you for it after you agreed to something else that was free, that's technically credit card fraud.
That said, the slightly longer answer is good news: So long as you catch a given charge early enough, most disputes will probably be in your favor. This will, of course, depend on your bank. But I've rarely had problems, and I've never had to pay an unauthorized charge in the end.
The exact policy will vary from bank to bank and credit card to credit card. The general rule is that you can file a dispute with them for any charge within sixty days of the charge; NOT sixty days from the product and/or service. This includes electronic funds transfers and other debits, and electronically processed checks, check-by-phone, etc. if it's a bank... though not for checks with your signature on them. Some financial institutions will allow longer time-frames for some or all types of charges. Some make distinctions between blatant fraud, and "normal" situations like these, where a vendor charges for a product or service that does not live up to what was promised.
Microsoft's policies may very well be that they won't process a refund after sixty days. However, it's not like they can prove you've actually used it, since your X-box has been out of commission since before that time. This will only matter later, if they dispute your dispute. Odds are, they won't, since they won't have a signature on file... unless you were foolish enough to mail something into them. ;-) As far as your bank/credit card company is concerned, you've got until February 26th (i.e. 60 days after the CHARGE) or later, depending on their policies. Check it out. Remember, it's the SIGNATURE that matters most, and you can sometimes get out of it even then. You just have to demonstrate that you received less than you were promised for the charge, something that isn't that difficult in the litigious society that we live in.
File the dispute, and you should be fine. From a social engineering perspective, I have found it useful to detail this process to the customer service rep you're speaking with, explaining that you will simply file a dispute with your bank and you'll get your money back anyway, in addition to causing their credit-card processor to charge them extra fees for the chargeback. Show them that it would just be less trouble for everyone involved if they will simply issue a refund. If you are clearly knowledgeable and they also understand the situation, they often back down... because they know that it's true and will only cost them more. But be nice about it. If you are to firm, you'll just piss them off and they make you go through it anyway, just to make your life harder. Because they also know that it's not costing THEM more; just the company.
Here's your opportunity to gouge the company everyone's always complaining about, on their own ground: legally. ;-)
Keep this from happening again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Perfect Example for One Time Use CC numbers (Score:2, Insightful)
- RR
Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (Score:5, Insightful)
Any frustration and/or anger he is feeling now should be directed at himself for failing to fully understand his responsibilities when he entered into a business contract with Microsoft.
There is need to involve the court system in this. It would be just another useless lawsuit tying up an already overstressed and abused court system.
Gettng a chargeback from the CC company for this would be at best underhanded and at worst immoral or fraudulent. He was not charged for something he didn't approve. He was charged for something he forgot about. Chargebacks are not a refund for stupidity. The more people abuse chargebacks the less chance the CC companies will grant them to people with valid complaints. Besides, like another poster said, the second he calls the CC company he will be asked, "Was this for a subscription service you agreed to?" The CC companies are already sick to death of people buying a month's pr0n subscription online and then calling 30 days later trying to get their money back for those "obviously fraudulent" charges that appeared on their bills.
The only respectable thing for the original poster to do is to admit to himself he forgot to cancel the account, pay the $50 and learn a lesson from this.
Re:Credit Card Fraud Is a Serious Crime (Score:3, Insightful)
1) If they remind you, it cost postage, plus all the costs associated with a massive mailing like that every month or so.
2) If they remind you, and you're not using it, you'll remember to cancel, and they lose income.
3) Many services default to this for convenience (like the paper -- or other monthly bills, like an ISP -- and often this benefits the customer as well).
4) Why would the company want to work harder to keep your business? I know you'd like them to, but they've got you, they've got your business, why should they remind you to stop paying them or give you a reason to consider terminating?
I don't care much for it either, but on the other hand, I'm glad my beer-of-the-month club, my isp, my gym, and some other services auto-renew, otherwise I'd have a bunch of extra bills to remember each month. It's the way almost every service works. You can deal with it or you can whine.
Yes, there are people who forget. And many of them, after getting nailed once, will remember in the future. If you sign ANY kind of legal agreement, it is your (generic your, I'm not attacking you personally) responsibility to a) remember the terms of the agreement, b) abide by them, c) remember your responsibilities. Maybe you don't deserve a fee for forgetting, but considering that this will be enough of a frustration he will likely remember it and not do it again, $50 is a cheap price to pay for a recent college grad to learn a lesson in life, as opposed to hundereds for a single 3 hour class.
Maybe he doesn't deserve it, but it could have been a lot more and this may remind him to cancel a higher cost subscription in the future. I have little sypmathy for anyone who subscribes for a service, doesn't read the ToS (especially when the company has a rep like MS does), and later complains that he got screwed because the company did what they said they'd do in the first place.
Incorrect about the burden of proof (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It sounds to me like they gave you ample warnin (Score:3, Insightful)
Correct, he agreed to the TOS. Corrent, he is in the wrong but that charging proceedure, designed to screw over people who 'forgot' to cancel immediately out of another months service, is underhanded. Not illegal... no legal recourse possible... just plain mean.
On another note, have any of you people read what you agreed to in your XBox/PS2/Windows/Garage Door Opener EULA? The EULAs/TOS themselves are underhanded... not illegal (err, maybe) but mean. This is just a guy who got slightly screwed by a rude company and is trying to get his money back.