EB Demands Payment From Victim of Theft 518
blincoln writes "ABC Action News is reporting that a Florida Electronics Boutique bought stolen games and gaming hardware, and made a profit on selling them back to their rightful owner, refusing to return the merchandise unless she paid them. From the article: 'EB Games still insists it will not refund Michelle's money. If she wants her money back, the company said, she can go through the legal system and get restitution from the thief.' In addition, EB appears to be violating the law by re-selling used merchandise without holding it for the required number of days. I was under the impression that purchasers of stolen merchandise could expect it to be seized by the police (who would return it to the owner) and not recover any of the money they spent buying it unless they took action against the thief. Is that not the case in Florida?"
Re:Dealing in stolen goods? (Score:3, Informative)
Any state should do (Score:2, Informative)
Re:pawn shops (Score:3, Informative)
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
While I am not an expert on Florida law in most states of the USA you can't. Why not? Because pawn brokers, which EB would likely claim they are, are exempt from fensing laws (i.e. recieving stolen property) in most states unless they actually know the property is stolen. Several states even exempt pawn brokers in situations where they reasonably should suspect the materials are stolen (the homeless person selling the diamond necklace type situation).
Don't ask me why this is because I don't know. All I can speculate is that sometime in the recent past pawnbrokers performed some really good lobbying efforts.
Nope. (Score:2, Informative)
Check their stock symbols.
-C
Duh, what? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:This isn't suprising at all (Score:5, Informative)
Gamestop and EBGames are not the same company. EBGames is what Electronics Boutique morphed itself into and Gamestop is the former Funcoland/Software Etc/Babbages. They are, in fact, the last two competing national chains dealing in "preowned" after Gamestop absorbed all those others.
EB is not a pawnbroker (Score:5, Informative)
They are more likely covered under Chapter 538: Part 1 [flsenate.gov]: Secondhand Dealers.
Pawning indicates that the pawnbroker will hold the material for an agreed-upon time (not less than the state-mandated minimum) to give the seller time to buy it back, with exclusive purchase rights to that original owner. Secondhand dealers are buying it with no promise to sell it back to the original owner...
I'm not a lawyer, but watch me play one on slashdot...
I doubt this is an isolated incident... (Score:5, Informative)
The truly demented part was EB informing the woman that *she* has to sue the thief for restitution. This appears to be nothing less than a ploy to attempt to de facto rewrite property law in this regard. The onus is on THEM to sue the thief, as he committed fraud in selling them stolen property. And they would win, easily, given the Confession. He would probably just agree to hand over the money rather than even show up in court over it. That they're not taking that route can only suggest that they are attempting to absolve themselves of responsibility, and in the process, alter a few centuries of commonlaw.
And, in the larger scheme, why not? This has to happen all the time. How many people write down the serial numbers of their gaming equipment, just on the off chance it gets stolen and pawned? Given their often-outrageous used prices, they must turn quite a tidy profit nationwide through turning a blind eye to stolen goods. And doing anything that causes them to assume responsibility for the goods would only hurt their profit margins.
So, institute a hands-off policy where they assume no culpability at all, and put all responsibility for legal action upon the person who was stolen from. The number of people who would actually manage to sue them would be comparatively tiny. (especially considering most would just sue in small claims court, and not even dream of launching a multi-year legal fight over a $100 PS2.)
It all makes a rather sad sense.
Re:issue? (Score:5, Informative)
As a pawn broker in Idaho, it's not quite that way here. In Idaho, we are required to hold ANY property for a minimum of 30 days if bought of 60 days if pawned. We also report full descriptions of EVERYTHING that comes over our counter. Serial numbers, distinguishing marks, colors, model numbers, EVERYTHING. We fill our several copies for each pawn/buy and send them to the police twice a week.
Any police officer may place a "Hold" on an item for any reason, which adds another 90 days. They may also extend that hold another 90 days as many times as they wish.
However, as a pawn shop, the authorities try to take us. That is, quite often, a patrolman will come in and demand that we relinquish property, which they intend to give directly back to the person who's property was stolen. Technically this is against the law for them to do, since we bought it in good faith.
We don't take items that we even suspect are stolen. In fact, I turned down a nice mp3 player yesterday because I suspected it was stolen. I couldn't prove anything so I couldn't call the police, but I didn't take it either.
We are always willing to "Hold" an item for as long as is needed, but we require an inventory requisition sheet be filed and that a disposition hearing be held to determine where the property should go.
If we didn't do this, we would have stuff "stolen" from us continually.
There have been several times in the last couple years when someone will come in, write down serial numbers on some of our stock, and then go to the police claiming it was stolen. Most of them are in jail for fraud, and one is awaiting sentancing right now.
This is also why we hate used stores like EB, Hastings, etc.. They don't have any of the same requirements. In fact, I've never seen a city ordinace that adressed pawn shops and second hand stores together. So don't go describing EB as a pawn shop. It isn't.
Your best bet for protection? Always right down serial numbers! It makes it 85% more likely that you will get your property back.
Calmiche,
EB is a corporation, Poster is a Troll (Score:4, Informative)
Anonymous Coward trolls:
EB is not a corporation. It is a sole proprietorship. Please do better research next time. Thank you.
Troll bridge, pay troll:
Electronics Boutique Holding Corporation (aka Electronics Boutiqe, EB, EB Games, EB Games Online, EBX) is a publically traded corporation on NASDAQ with the ticker symbol ELBO [yahoo.com]. For more information, you can look at their corporate site [ebholdings.com].
A hint, in general, if you see ", Inc." after a company name, that means it's a corporation. All of the "Electronics Boutique, Inc." should have clued you in. Making up that it's a sole propritorship with no evidence (as if anyone would accept the liability problems of a sole proprietorship for a nationwide chain of retail storefronts) is what made this post a troll.
I would have just ignored the troll, except idiot moderators were making it a highly rated troll. Consider this a notice to metamoderators that above "Informative" moderation was unfair.
Re:EB isn't exempt from state laws... (Score:2, Informative)
This story is OLD! (Score:4, Informative)
As for the Hall of Shame, that happened quickly, and the store refused to give the money back after the hall of shame talked to them. Of course, that is pretty much a pre-requisite for getting on the hall of shame, because if they work it out, then they don't get there.
Re:Duh, what? (Score:5, Informative)
No, if you get your stuff back, you don't get compensation from the thief! If you buy stolen property, YOU have to sue the theif for restitution. The person who had it stolen is NOT obligated to buy it back and then do the suing themselves. They can and should be charged with possession of stolen property, and trafficing in stolen property.
Regardless of the waiting period issue, the second they knew it was stolen, and tried to sell it anyways, they broke the law and should go to JAIL. No stupid bullshit fines. Throw the clerk and the manager in jail. It's just plain illegal, and there is no way around that.
link to ebgames feedback (Score:3, Informative)
I see a couple of problems (Score:4, Informative)
I hope her house was locked, so that the thief would have to break and enter to steal the property.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
So, protest (Score:2, Informative)
Call in a complaint! (Score:1, Informative)
Mall: GULF VIEW SQUARE
9409 US HIGHWAY 19
PORT RICHEY FL, 34668 US
727-847-3443
Re:The hell..? (Score:3, Informative)
Even if EB had waited the necessary time to sell the goods, that doesn't mean that EB had the *right* to sell the goods. It just meant that they wouldn't have violated that particular law. EB can sue the thief. The victim can sue both. Although I am sickened by frivolously litigious people, the legal system really does protect people like her. In court, EB would get kicked around for this kind of behavior.
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
Not true in general. If the buyer bought the goods "in good faith" then they cannot be required to return them. That's unfair to the good faith buyer. Imagine, if you buy a couch at the flea market for say $500, then next week police show up at your door and take it away because it turned up to have been stolen. And as they leave they give you a name of some guy in another state (possibly another country) that allegedly stole it. No, that's not how it works. Usually, good faith buyers can keep the merchandise and original owner can go after the thief.
Having said that, and judging from the article, it looks like EB did violate the 15 day hold law. And yes, I agree, what were they thinking not refunding the money?
Hmm... on second thought, I don't want to sound like devil's advocate here but, people could devise a scheme like that selling their "stolen" goods and then getting them back for free; even if they confessed to "stealing." So, give some benefit of the doubt to EB - they have to be careful as well.
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
Fucking insurance scum. A carpenter friend of mine had all the tools stolen out of his truck box. Because the stolen items were "tools of his trade" they were not insured -- they should have been on a separate rider. Had he been an accountant, the same tools would have been covered. He dropped the company and told the salesman for his next company to make sure he was fully insured for everything, no matter the cost, and that, if he were ever denied a claim on such chicken shit grounds, he'd hunt the salesman down and hold him very physically responsible.
Re:issue? (Score:4, Informative)
All items still in EB's posession could however be seized
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This isn't suprising at all (Score:4, Informative)
I got "banned" from a Gamestop in Orlando a while back for stopping somebody from being scammed by one of their employees.
It was back when the Dreamcast was dropping in price to $99. It happened on a Sunday, because I went to Best Buy to get one, and they didn't have any of the keyboards left, so we went over to Gaystop to see if they had one. I got to witness an employee telling a father that the price drop didn't take effect until Tuesday.
I spoke up and said that I just bought one at Best Buy for $99, and read many ads that morning in the newspaper for the same price. The father thanked me, flipped off the employee, and walked out, over to Best Buy. I was told I was no longer welcome in that store, which was ok, as that was the first and only time I had ever been there.
Re:Let EB know about what you think of their polic (Score:5, Informative)
The gist of the conversation went as such:
I explained that I would not be doing further business with them unless they changed this policy, which conflicts with laws designed to protect against the sale of stolen goods.
The EBGames customer service rep put me through to a manager, who mentioned that this particular Florida incident took place over a month ago (the article above has the data Jan 29) and that they had been in contact with Michelle since then and were trying to rectify the situation.
At this point I told them a press release regarding this matter, and any policy changes that occur from it, would be appreciated.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
Unless Florida has decided to pass a different statute (unlikely) the position in English Common law is that the goods bellong to the original owner (except in four peculiar exceptions that certainly would not apply here).
Once EB became aware that the goods were stolen and then sold them EB were arguably guilty of receiving stolen goods. There could also be a claim for conversion.
This is the sort of thing that any HQ with a clue would tell the franchise to pay up on. It is a really risky proposition that could easily end up with a nasty legal situation.
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
Someone should tell her... (Score:5, Informative)
--- 538.08 Stolen goods; petition for return.--
(1) If the secondhand dealer contests the identification or ownership of the property, the person alleging ownership of the property may, provided that a timely report of the theft of the goods was made to the proper authorities, bring an action for replevin in the county or circuit court by petition in substantially the following form:
Plaintiff A. B., sues defendant C. D., and alleges:
1. This is an action to recover possession of personal property in _______________ County, Florida.
2. The description of the property is: (list property) . To the best of plaintiff's knowledge, information, and belief, the value of the property is $_______________.
3. Plaintiff is entitled to the possession of the property under a security agreement dated __________, (year) , a copy of which is attached.
4. To plaintiff's best knowledge, information, and belief, the property is located at ____________________.
5. The property is wrongfully detained by defendant. Defendant came into possession of the property by (describe method of possession) . To plaintiff's best knowledge, information, and belief, defendant detains the property because (give reasons) .
6. The property has not been taken under an execution or attachment against plaintiff's property.
(2) The filing fees shall be waived by the clerk of the court, and the service fees shall be waived by the sheriff. The court shall award the prevailing party attorney's fees and costs. In addition, when the filing party prevails in the replevin action, the court shall order payment of filing fees to the clerk and service fees to the sheriff.
(3) Upon the filing of the petition, the court shall set a hearing to be held at the earliest possible time. Upon the receipt of a petition for a writ by a secondhand dealer, the dealer shall hold the property at issue until the court determines the respective interests of the parties.
(4) In addition to the civil petition for return remedy, the state may file a motion as part of a pending criminal case related to the property. The criminal court has jurisdiction to determine ownership, to order return or other disposition of the property, and to order any appropriate restitution to any person. Such order shall be entered upon hearing after proper notice has been given to the secondhand dealer, the victim, and the defendant in the criminal case. --- Why on EARTH did she pay for something that was hers? The thought must've occurred to her at some point that there was a process (like the one listed above) to get it back without paying. Of course there is. And of course, it adds shady points to EB for taking advantage of her lack of knowledge and trying to score some extra illegal bucks. That's just low.
Re:I won't be shopping at EB, will you? (Score:5, Informative)
So, in otherwords, this is all the companies fault, they can't blame a franchisee. The most they can do is say (if it is the case) that the manager violated company policy.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
Looking at it from the perspective of an employee of EB for a year and a half, that was the precise lesson all four of my managers told me. If it looks, feels, or smells stolen, or even if you're not sure, make up a bullshit excuse and get the punk out of the store. This happened to me about five times during my time; one time the thief even threatened to call the cops on me because I was "discriminating against him" by refusing to take his ten games which coincidentally all were in Blockbuster containers. With the receipt stating the return date (three days prior) also stuck in one of them.
Your best bet for protection? Always right[sic] down serial numbers! It makes it 85% more likely that you will get your property back.
One problem with this-- few video games come with serial numbers anymore. Typically it's only the systems themselves which have s/ns, and even then the computer requires us to track 'em. Nintendo's recently been putting brochures with "redemption codes" in a few of their games, but it's just box spam that isn't attached to the cartridge or disc itself, so it's no good.
So don't go describing EB as a pawn shop. It isn't.
It wasn't, technically. Since now (at least at my local store in Olean, NY) EB can give cash for games, it falls under the category of "pawn shop" (in my admittedly non-lawyer dictionary). Previously EB got around having to have a pawn license by only issuing store credit.
I left EB because I got sick of having to deal with dishonest fucktards. Not ironically, I took a job in phone tech support immediately afterwards. I'm still looking for a new job.
Oh, and don't hate all the EB employees, please. Some of us-- well, maybe 15% of the clerks-- know what we're talking about and aren't actively trying to screw you over. Not all the time, anyway. ([Shadowcabbit] remembers the time he sold a Dreamcast to a grandmother who thought it was a portable game system.)
Franchise? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Sound the Troll Bells (Score:3, Informative)
I was never terribly fond of Morgan either-- never met the guy myself, but everyone I talked to who had all seemed to say his name like they'd say any other profanity.
[Gamers hired are] elist and will, quite undiplomatically, tell customers that the game that customer has brought to the counter "sucks."
Well, being one of those guys (hired because my answer to "what game systems have you played recently?" was "all of them" followed by naming them, in reverse alphabetical order), I can say that most of the time it was true. I also probably ought to mention that my managers always could count on me for overtime, closing, whatever. I wasn't perfect, mind you, but I knew my stuff and I worked my ass off. So maybe there's a combination of "gamer" and "salesman" out there that'll work. (To be fair-- the only reason I didn't wind up talking all day about games is because a) I never worked with other "gamer"-types and b) the ones I did work with all liked games I wasn't interested in. Oh yeah, and c) by the time I was through working there I was about this close to becoming completely anti-social and going to live on some hill in Tennessee.)
I think the EB I worked at was run extremely tightly, with an emphasis on professionalism, politeness, and gaming knowledge.
Incidentally, which store did you run? I was at the Millcreek Mall in Erie, PA and the Olean Center Mall in Olean, NY. I was about ready to strangle the GameDoctor guy by the end of six months. ^_^
Re:EB should burn in hell. (Score:2, Informative)
The reason that Gamestop and EB always recommend used games? Simple. At Gamestop, if you don't like the game, or have any problem with it, you have seven days to return it. If it's new, and the package has been opened, your only option is to trade it in then, which is going to leave you mad at us because you won't get nearly what you spent. Well, we told you to buy it used, but you didn't listen. Don't blame us. Sheesh.
You can say that EB and Gamestop rip you off all you want, but these companies exist to make a profit. Would you rather not have the option of buying cheaper games? Would you rather not have the option of trading in titles that you're tired of or don't play anymore?
The reason we only give you $20-25 in store credit when you trade in a game that was just recently released is because if we gave you $35-$40, it becomes little more than a really really cheap 1-month rental. Sure, that's not true for a lot of people, but you know, there's enough people out there who abuse the system like that and hence why we have such policies.
For a bunch of geeks and nerds, I'm surprised more people here don't know how game stores function and turn a profit.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
if you are not law-enforcement personnel entering a person's domicile without thier express permission, as soon as you place one foot/hand/appendage into an opening (be it a door, window, etc), that person has the right to take forceful measure's against your entering that property, upto and including the use of firearm's
. I've had my home broken into previously, and the time that I'm referencing, I happened to be home (let my brother borrow the truck). Stupid bastard didn't realize that I was home, at least he didn't until I shot him. The court's didn't penalize me for it, and kinda thanked my for not making another homicide statistic
unfortuneatly, it is... but one can alway's dream, can't they..?
alway's, and that's the way it should be. If you are stupid enough to have unsecured firearms laying around without a damn good reason, you deserve what you get. If your paranoid enough to sleep with a firearm that isn't secured, then you should be paranoid enough to be alerted somehow (gut feel, etc) that something is not right in your world, and you are going to need that firearm to correct it, ergo, the bastard that just broke into your home should only be meeting the business end of said firearm.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
I have several handguns, including a Glock 19 with an M-6 tac light and laser just for home protection. In my state, I must carry concealed. If someone threatens me outside my home (even on my property) I must attempt a retreat. If the other guy chases me into my home, I can fill him full of very large holes. It's happened here numerous times and the shooter walks away, eventually.
If you are carjacked by someone with a weapon (any weapon), you can pull out your handgun and if he does not immediately exit the vehicle, you can empty your clip into his face. My wife carries a Seecamp for this very reason.
If a robber breaks into my home for any reason I can shoot him, as long as I am damn sure he intended harm or burglary. There is no situation in this state where I have to "watch him walk off with my shit." I would hold him at gunpoint and call 911.
If a person threatens me with imminent, severe physical or deadly force outside my home (on or off my property) I can again, fill the motherfucker full of holes. This is the typical fender-bender scene where one guy gets out with a tire iron and starts running towards the other driver. Pull out your P7, assure him that he is five seconds from death, and he will suddenly calm down and get out his insurance info.
I often wonder what the soccer moms at Stop and Shop would think if they knew the guy comparing prices on ground beef next to them was carrying an H&K P7 loaded with +P+ copper jacketed hollow points.
When I took my safety course a while back, I was told a startling fact: 3 out of ten people on the street in some cities are packing. In 1989 in those same cities, 1 out of 20 was carrying a firearm.
Yeah, Connecticut is a real liberal state. hehe
Did you get paid to write this? (Score:1, Informative)
Frankly, you sound a bit like the type of manager who gives managers a bad name. It is true, of course, that there is a wide difference between managers within the same chain, but corporate policies can easily force bad store environments no matter how dedicated a manager is.
Moreover, I can't really think of any retail chain that specifically allows its individual stores to order individual products. Specific ordering on a store level for any chain that buys in bulk is an inventory management nightmare and would come at nothing less than a huge cost, and therefore price, increase.
WALMART specifically allows store level ordering and it is a key responsibility of their store managers. This store-specific stock tailoring is counted by analysts as one of the key factors to their success. There is some talk at Walmart of moving ALL ordering to headquarters, rather than merely purchase order rationalization to consolidate orders, in order to increase their economies of scale even further and allow better forecasting and stock control. However, there is wide-spread analyst concern that this will only hurt Walmart by removing a key success factor.
Any maximally successful stock policy must use head office order consolidation and product promotion as a tool in the goal of store specific product tailoring in order to foster customer satisfaction and maximize sales.
Why the low emphasis on gaming knowledge? As a former EB assistant manager, I'll tell you. Typically, people who "know about games" don't work. They sit on their asses during paid hours and talk about games with other people you've hired that "know about games." Nine times out of ten, you hire a guy who is "knowledgeable" and
Perhaps gamers are a unique breed, but I have interviewed many people for a busy retail environment. Many of those applicants previously worked at a very large electronics chain reknowned for the complete lack of knowledge of their sales staff. It is well documented that that chain's sales-people are strictly there to move boxes by any means necessary, and are paid poorly for that duty. It is simply their business model.
Many of the people I interviewed and subsequently hired quit the large chain BECAUSE they themselves were quite knowledgable and could no longer stand the corporate behaviour and exploitive sales behaviour it enforced. Almost all of those people turned out to be excellent, hard-working sales staff in my store.
Perhaps you are on your way to becoming a decent manager, but you better figure out that you don't know it all yet.
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
Gotta love FL laws (Score:2, Informative)
Florida pawn brokers have a damn good union. A person whose property is stolen is required to pay the pawn broker to get his stuff back, but usually only what the pawn shop payed the thief. If you know your serial numbers, makes, and models, it's not usually too awfully hard to find your stuff, assuming you can actually get someone to look for it.
We had some lawn equipment go missing repeatedly in Florida. Each time, it showed up in some pawn shop, and the theif got their slap on the wrists. And we were out a couple of hundred bucks. Florida sees it as making sure there is only one victim, of course they're a victim twice. Not only can't you use your stuff because it's missing, but you have to pay someone to get it back. Otherwise, they'd be dealing with both the theft victim, and the pawn shop trying to get their money back seperately. Try getting your cash back from a guy that was so poor he was already stealing your weed whacker to buy pot.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, it's called UCC [reactor-core.org] 2-403:
Emphasis mine. Disclaimer: IANAL, so feel free to correct.
Re:issue? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:issue? (Score:2, Informative)
We live in North East Florida, so we deal with the same state level laws but different local law enforcement.
We had a B&E once at the house, one of the punk kids down the street. I was out checking on a wounded fox around 9 pm and as I'm walking back toward the house (one disadvantage of 10 acres is that it's 10 acres) I see someone walking up the driveway.
There's realy no excuse for kids to just wander up the drive way, you have to go thru 2 gates one at the street and one in the fence around the area we keep mowed (close to 1/8 of a mile from the street) So I just chill and lean against a tree at the edge of the yard and watch as the person continues toward the house looking around. Once he wasn't looking around as much I circled wide and started to follow him, making sure I kept in the shadows since I caught sight of something long in his right hand. At the time I had on heavy clothing, thick gloves and some basic medical stuff (she had been shot and I had her leg in a splint) so as he was getting closer to the house I started to get closer.
I was standing less than 10 feet from the kid when he smashed one of the bedroom windows, I rushed up and grabbed him by the ankles and pulled him back as he tried to crawl in. He dropped the crowbar as he left the window which hung for a second and then fell on him. That had him out for a few minutes during which I tied his hands and feet with the bandages in my kit. With him temporarilly tied like that I ran into the house and grabbed some rope from the pantry and the portable phone and rushed back out the door.
I called the cops to report an armed breaking and entering in progress and the operator said that a car was on the way. An hour and a half later the cop shows up and asks me why there is a kid bound to the tree by the porch.
I didn't get charged with anything, because i was defending my home from an armed invader. The officer said I probably shouldn't have tied him to the tree though. It's a good thing for him I wasn't carrying something to shoot him with, I realy don't beleive in shooting to wound, having dealt with so many animals that had been shot that way.
I heard later that week they searched the house the kid lived in, there having been quite a few break-ins on the street in the past few months, and they found quite a lot of stolen stuff, up to the point there was a stolen ATV in his garage behind a pile of boxes and a tarp.
Though to get slightly back to the topic at hand:
All the stolen property was seized for evidence, and then afterward returned to the owners.