Men Incapable Of Portraying Videogame Women Fairly? 246
Thanks to GameSpot for its 'GameSpotting' editorial discussing whether men can be trusted to portray women fairly in videogames. The author references Metroid ("I don't appreciate that Samus being a woman is a punch line"), and Ico ("Yorda... [is] this supposedly sympathetic female character in a video game that can do absolutely nothing for herself and is constantly in danger of being kidnapped"), and ends by leveling the charge: "I think men are inherently incapable of doing an adequate job of properly presenting female characters in games."
Man's fault? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's not even because they're stupid (Score:3, Interesting)
Should we be complaining about all archetypes in all forms of entertainment which portray a group unfairly? Not by a long shot. It's like writing a piece of music with instruments that you make up entirely on your own for that particular piece: an unnecessary amount of work for very little (read: possibly negative) payoff.
Unfair! (Score:2, Interesting)
Then, they go and make a gung-ho asskicker--university educated, genius, speaks multiple Asian languages fluently, is a straight shot, knows several martial arts, drives cars like Fangio, jumps off bridges, climbs buildings, and generally unleashes whupass.
And lo and behold, pandemonium breaks loose among the PC crowd, just because she's clad in a tiny thong and miniskirt and has enormous bazoombas? I mean geez, make up your minds....
On stereotypes (Score:3, Interesting)
An example (note: I live in DK):
In the neighbourhood I grew up in, there are a lot of immigrants, and since 1997 (long story) these have mainly been from Somalia.
From what I understand, Somalia is not a nice place to be, for anyone. People die from famine.
So of course, people emigrate to another country.
They come to Denmark and become as complacent and decadent as us. They watch TV with their kids. (80% of the TV shows in DK are from the US) Their kids see black people acting a certain way. They think it's cool.
Suddenly, they're walking around with bandanas and FUBUs and shit I've never wanted to know about, trying to even sound like the actors on TV. Hell, it's even more pitiful to see than when I was in Greenland and saw Greenlandish Niggers*.
Talk about your off-topic-I-haven't-slept-all-night rant.
* Note: I've been to Greenland 13 times. Never saw a black person there.
I feel sorry for the guy... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's pathetic. It really is. Why does he feel the way he does? What kind of horrible psychology has warped his mind into this sad state?
He feels guilty that Samus is a woman? And that Samus *can* be seen in a bathing suit? Oh dear lord! Someone call the thought-police, he might start forming an attraction to the opposite sex! How horrible! -- Though the true horror is that he feels this way. That, every time he views an in game portrayal of a woman even REMOTELY attractive, it is somehow a violation of "womens rights".
Let me tell you something guys. Not as a woman, because i'm not. But because i'm a MAN, and I no longer tolerate this "acceptable society" bullshit. Women in games? Thats great. SEXY women in games? Thats even fucking BETTER! Now before the "facist-femme militia of well-whipped men" decends on me, i'd like to point out one interesting fact: Women LIKE sexy portrayals of women. Women LIKE to feel sexy. They LIKE to feel attractive, they fucking ENJOY the power to reduce a man to a quivering puddle of goo with their bodies. Come on men, don't you too? All
I know, I know... a lot of you probably don't believe me. Well look right here [womengamers.com]. Its a page all about female characters in video games. Browse through the ratings, go ahead. Check out some good examples and some bad. Notice anything? Notice any attractive females with high ratings [womengamers.com]? Women are not offended by their own genders display of sexuality and power. They love that shit just as much as guys do. What's offensive is unrealistic images and blatant focuses on sexuality. Guys, a woman is a mind and a soul as well as a body, and if they're going to play games then thats the kind of avatars they expect.
I strongly encourage poeple to read this article [gamegirladvance.com] if you haven't already. And check out some of the quotes too. This one was on the infamous Lara Croft (sp. the box art):
Whoa whoa whoa - back that up there. She LIKES the cover art? Lara Croft? What the hell? Look at her breasts! They're huge! And those shorts are TINY! How could any woman *LIKE* Lara Croft's signature pose? Its so blatantly sexual! By definition, all women should hate it, right?! WRONG. Like I said again and again: Women do not mind attractive females in games. They enjoy their sexuality too, because its *part* of how they define themselves as a woman. They IDENTIFY with a woman's sexual power. So what do they hate? Read on:
And BINGO! It was the marketing! The focus! Here, a female gamer was impressed not only with the attractiveness of Lara, but with her strength and confidence as well. For a b
blah blah.. (Score:1, Interesting)
I'll tell you what, men and women vary across the spectrum. Either make them stand out or make them bland cardboard. Why don't we suck the life out of all characters and make them mindless automatons of society that take their brain drugs and all wear the same flat black suits with matching pants? And we'll all talk the same and we'll have the same IQ after some quick scalpel work. We all work the same hours and go to bed at the same time. Get the same money for each paycheck and spend it on the same things and save the same percent for retirement. We all eat the same every day, too.
Asking for some "idealized" woman character is like asking to abstract away all that makes her a human being. We've all got issues, is it anyone's fault other than your own that your head is too far up your ass looking for some "ideal triangle" to see that?
Statements like this are not arguments... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you aren't in the group what you think or say or do does not matter since your opinion is somehow tainted.
Hold on a moment, since it gets worse as far as women's studies go. (I took a class...more below.)
Right or wrong, supported by evidence or not, the mere support by evidence or the rightness or wrongness comes from your perspective. In the case of women's studies, statements -- right/wrong/evidence/... -- are even 'male constructions'.
If you are a woman you can't give the male perspective completely...if you are a man, your whole 'male dominiated thought process that ignores shades of grey' works against you being able to comment effectively.
You might agree or disagree...it doesn't matter. You agree, that's nice. You disagree, you obviously don't understand you poor schmuck.
(The class on women's issues: Entering the class, I was sympathetic and thought I understood. Yet, as 1 of 2 men in the class I was constantly told any opinion I had -- including having an opinion at all -- was wrong since I should not comment since I'm not a woman. I left with a whole lot less sympathy for women after that.)
Greg Doesn't Play Games (Score:5, Interesting)
Beyond Good & Evil: Not only is the main character strong, forceful, and not sexualized, there are several other characters in the game that are as active in the resistance movement as she is. I guess Greg was one of those people who didn't buy it.
Prince of Persia: So you save the Princess. But once you do (and she kind of saves you, the male), she's forthwright, mostly capable, and witty. And exhibits a remarkable ability to slide through cracks. Still, it's quite obvious as you play the game that your character, male character, is an obnoxious idiot, and that the Princess has been right all along.
KOTOR: Not only can your main character be a female, but one of the primary NPCs is also a Princess-Leia-esque female. Sure, you save her, but she doesn't really need it. Same goes for another female member of your party. They're both quite capable. Well, as long as you level them up. So I guess Greg was focusing on the stereotypical macho Mandalorin?
Deus Ex: IW: Again, main character can be female or male. One of the supporting female characters is diplomat of one of the paths you can take, and is quite forceful.
There's many others, but I'm getting bored of listing them for someone who probably doesn't care. Immediately I'm thinking of Anachronox, Panzeer Dragoon Orta, and then there's a large portion of the old Sierra adventure games. The King's Quest series, the Gabriel Knight series, Phantasmagoria series, and the Quest for Glory series were all developed by women. If I thought a little harder than Greg did in his article, I think I could conjure up some more.
So Greg might have a point: in the games he plays, which doesn't seem like many save the original Metroid and the first 2 hours of ICO, women are probably under-represented. For the rest of us, you know, the people that play games, I think it's fair to say that while it's not an equal representation yet, it's far better than it was even 5 years ago. And oh yeah Greg, you make mention of it, but apparently not enough to convince yourself. There are quite a few women in leadership positions in the game industry, who are approving these "embarassing" "malecentric" games. For example, the president of Activision is a women [activision.com]. Hmm. Greg doesn't play games, and he doesn't know about the people that make them. Can I be executive editor too?
I have to agree... (Score:2, Interesting)
The portrayal of women in media is not accurate, in general. While mediums such as books and music have reached a point where women are dealt with as honestly as men (which is often not very honest, mind you), games and films (to a lesser extent) have a long way to go towards balancing their portrayal of the sexes.
The issue here is not necessarily that women should portrayed in complete honesty, but that they should be subject to no more or no less exaggeration than men. Men in films are typically clever/intelligent, physically gifted, or a sort of underdog type loser. Films are certainly slanted toward the first two categories, but the last one shows up more frequently and I feel that it grounds the portrayal of men in films overall.
I feel that the film industry isn't as honest with women. In most films, it seems like they are still paraded as sexual beings that are passed around as love interests. Case in point Pirates of the Carribean, a thoroughly entertaining film with some slanted gender roles. While the men are not particularly heroic (clumsy, but witty and endearing), the female lead doesn't seem to make any significant decisions other than who to fall in love with.
Video games, because of a mostly male audience, can get away with more imbalanced depictions. Women in games, even if they are intelligent, brave, and strong-willed, are still almost always shown with ridiculously large breasts and buttocks and seem to wear outfits that emphasize these qualtities. While this is okay in small doses, the fact that nearly all women in games are shown this way disappoints me
The shining exception in my mind (as a guy who's played a lot of games) is Alice. The hero was a female whose dialogue and appearance were completely believable and admirable. Alice wasn't a "bimbo", but she wasn't a man in a dress either. Rather, she was an average-looking eighteen year-old with well-written dialogue that showed the character of this occasionally headstrong and feral young women tempered with strong feeling of guilt and depression, as is to be expected as a resident of an insane asylum in late Victorian England.
Okay, this post is long enough. That's the state of the art, as I see it. I think that women will be more fairly portrayed in games as the audience and developer base widens, just as with the film industry. It's a long way to go still, but it will happen someday.
njord
Re:Ico & Yorda (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder how the author's opinion of Yorda would've been different had he finished the game...
Re:ICO, and the obPennyArcade (Score:4, Interesting)
Yorda is super cool. She glows in the dark and can make giant stones move by shooting electric arcs from her body.
Also, when the shadows are coming to kidnap her (and therefore turn you to stone), if she gets close to the green doors her electric arcs vaporise the shadow ghosts. Yeah, those guys you have to beat forever with a big stick to kill them? She can zap 'em all in an instant.
Ico needs Yorda and Yorda needs Ico. She can unlock the doors, he can jump and fight.
Just when you start getting up to a good jog, she slows you down by jerking on your arm.
That is because you are a jerk.
If you pull her along gently and give her time to get running too, she'll run as fast as you. If you start running and forcibly pull her along, yeah, she'll slow you down. But you obviously never even tried to be gentle, or else you would know that.
"Men" and other collective words (Score:2, Interesting)
Here the author is using the word "men" to describe something that all of us readily understand. But try to come up with an example of a man. Perhaps like me, you can choose yourself. Regardless, is that man one of the "men" she's referring to? Probably not. The word "men" and "man" (or others: "women," "blacks," "Americans," "Asians") have little connection to reality. These words are an amalgam of different connotations and meanings from culture that could very well conflict.
Note that I'm not blaming the author on this one; we all do it. It's a natural thing to lump things into groups. It's just that with people it is very hard to come up with good groupings because everyone really is unique.
So remember, even if you're a guy, you're probably not a "man." It's impossible to be such a thing; it doesn't really exist anywhere except in the collective minds of people in a culture.
Re:No it's not (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I have to agree... (Score:2, Interesting)
The upshot of all that? Character doesn't matter.
Let's face it, the *vast* majority of the games out there can be boiled down to one essential bit of logic - TAG, YOU'RE IT! Whether or not it's a headshot in Counterstrike or a missile from an F-14 or scraping the wall in a NASCAR sim, the essential action and reaction in virtually all games is "is Player ONE tagging a SOLID OBJECT? If so - CHECK RESULT!" Head goes gib, plane goes boom, door goes scrape. Tag? Result. No tag? No result? Two choices. On or off. Sound familiar? Take it all the way back to Pong, and you see it at its clearest. Ball touch paddle? Bounce. No touch? Score. Binary logic, folks. At the end of the day, 99% of the games out there are just glorified games of tag. All this arguing about the "accurate depiction of women in videogames" is just a faux-feminist and inflammatory way to say that it's almost impossible to portray *PEOPLE* in games. Your onscreen avatar could be a man, a woman, or a penguin, and it wouldn't change the fact that all you're doing is playing tag. You want realistic characters? Go play an RPG. They're basically just books with minigames and multiple endings anyway.
Comparing videogames to film and books is a fundamentally unfair comparison to make. Trying to accurately depict *real human emotion and behaviour* via computer code is like trying to solve algebraic equations through interpretive dance. It might be possible, but it just wasn't designed to work that way. Either this guy really believes that writing a 3D engine is the same as writing ELIZA, or he's just some dude trying to score at feminist poetry night down at the coffee shop.
You pick.
Re:We can't have it both ways, guys (Score:2, Interesting)
Get off your high horse and stop pretending like you are better then the rest of us. The fact of the matter is these video games are created for a single purpose, to sell. Sex sells so women are portrayed in various ways. You can't change economics, you can't change desire. It's just the reality of life. Not to mention most of the male characters you see in video games are just as absurd and one dimensional.
We are creatures that are archetypal in nature. Our archetypes are derived from our myths and our myths are at the root of who we are and are what we attempt to emulate. You can't and will not change that.
Re:No it's not (Score:3, Interesting)