XBox Owner Sues Microsoft 935
drusoicy writes "Reuters is reporting that Sean Burke has filed suit against Microsoft because his XBox system stopped reading discs (games or otherwise) after less than one year of use. Many XBox owners can relate, as XBox hard drives are known for crashing. 'The defective XBox's stop working after minimal usage, after unreasonably, unconscionably, unusually and unexpectedly short amounts of time,' the lawsuit said. The suit will probably become class action, and seeks to represent anyone who has purchased an XBOX since the 2001 launch."
Why can't he just return it? (Score:3, Insightful)
PS2 Class-action (Score:5, Insightful)
Reputable links are pretty sparse, but a quick Google search revealed a FAQ [ign.com] that has surfaced in several places. I usually despise class-action suits, they tend to only make lawyers rich, but as the owner of a failed 1st gen PS2, I have to say this might be a worthy use of it. IANAL, etc.
What is the Warranty Period? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, MS has rolled out the media center for Xbox. I speculate that MS is trying to enter the Movies Over IP (moops from Seinfeld
What about Sony? (Score:4, Insightful)
ok? (Score:1, Insightful)
ALL pieces of hardware are known to stop working for some amount of people. That's why people get WARRANTIES. The most common reason for things to stop working is due to misuse... e.g. putting it on the carpet so it collects dust.
Why do we have a slashdot story on a piece of hardware that stopped working? and why XBox (rhetorical question)? why not apple? i'm sure a fair amount of macs stop working within a year as well.
My computer stopped working after 6 months... what did I do? I sent it in to get it repaired... for FREE because of a warranty (i'm guessing XBox has a 1 year warranty, at least... but i don't know).
It made me angry that it was such an inconvenience to send it in, but you don't see me filing a freaking lawsuit about it. let alone class action.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
And give you a replacement?
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not one of those McDonalds Hot coffee lawsuits
Warranty (Score:2, Insightful)
I dislike MS as much as the next Slashdotter, but suing them because his particular X-Box broke seems ridiculous. I suppose people could claim that they have suffered with the loss of their saved games if the HD failed, but that isn't the case with this guy.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:1, Insightful)
And if they win! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What is the Warranty Period? (Score:2, Insightful)
Plain as a day... (Score:2, Insightful)
IMO, this guy is trying to get a spotlight, as well as maybe a bit of money for a settlement - perhaps Micro$oft would be happier to pay him off quickly than to get some (more) negative publicity. Then again, with all the negative stuff about M$ circulating these days, what's another minor hardware-related issue? They'll just blame whoever manufactured the drives.
Re:And if they win! (Score:5, Insightful)
Not likely. Microsoft Home Entertainment Division will probably offer coupons for exchanges and a free game or something. Once they've got you hooked, you think they're going to let you get away?
Re:maybe.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is not one of those McDonalds Hot coffee lawsuits
True. It is less McDonald's coffee [lawandhelp.com] and more Chevrolet Corvair [about.com]. It's about selling a knowingly faulty product.
Re:Class action, huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Point taken XBOX owner (Score:3, Insightful)
I wish those console sales trackers would publish statistics on reliability. I know it would be impossible to do it perfectly. Maybe do a test study to get some idea, because I have a feeling that the true market share numbers are much different than the % purchased that they give now.
Re:ok? (Score:5, Insightful)
Gone are the days of actually making robust products, no, we'll give them warranties. Chances are that even if it does break, people won't hit companies up for the warranties, especially if they're limited time. It's a profit increasing mechanism.
Ever seen the movie Tommy Boy? Warranties on brake pads? A warranty does a fat lot of good if the brakes fail. Give me a well-built product any day, even my consumer electronics. Enough of this throw-away crap.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Let's see, $150 XBOX.
Best possible reward:
$150
-Attorney fees
-Court costs
= -thousands of dollars
The lawyers will make plenty of money... but the guy whose XBOX broke will be lucky if he gets a coupon for some games that still won't work in his defective XBOX.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:1, Insightful)
Coffee is hot. Coffee doesn't always stay warm during your trip to work.
Mcdonald's solution? Brew hotter coffee. Why? Because the customer reqested it.
It is unfortunate that the lady spilled hot coffee in her lap. It is unfortunate that people accidentally injure themselves when they use knives, guns, or pencils.
But it's an accepted risk of life. Don't want to risk it? Don't drink coffee.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Class action lawsuits are for attorneys, not clients.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:4, Insightful)
give the people what they want (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What is the Warranty Period? (Score:1, Insightful)
It good that the government has produced the law to protects the citizens from defective products. However, the cost will be passed onto the consumer. The warranties provided are not free. There is a risk and either the company has to allocate money to a risk fund or acquire insurance to cover defective products.
In the US, the cost of the insurance is left up to the consumer that can be purchased from certain vendors - a store such as Circuit City or Best Buy may offer to sell you such insurance if you want it. Most people forgo the cost and accept the risk; thus, reducing the initial cost of the unit. The consumer does enter an evaluated risk but that is a free choice.
The free markets even out. The product is popular and lasts, people buy it. If it continues to break than people avoid it. Which is better? As you might see I am biased towards the Free Market yet I will say that having government law seems popular at your locale.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ok? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's not going to happen, this is MS, but then at least YOU as a consumer have learned and make better decisions in the future.
What happens if this guy loses the case? Does he wash his hands of MS? NO! He runs out and buys a new Xbox anyway. And he will forever be annoyed by inferior products.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference here is that, when your XBox breaks down, it doesn't fucking kill you!
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes class actions of this particular type the remediation is just that the machine gets fixed. I had an Aiwa stereo of one specific model that had a defect where the CD drive would consistently break after a couple of years. There was a class action, and the settlement was that everyone who bought this particular model got a coupon to go get the CD drive repaired for free. I found this entirely satisfactory.
Warranties are NOT free (Score:5, Insightful)
When I buy a car, I generally look for the one that has the highest reliability rating, and NOT the one that offers the longest warranty (all other things being equal, which they never are, of course). I'd rather have a product I can depend on, rather that one the manufacture is implicitly stating is likely to fail.
Remember kid: there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure he could return it, but why can't we expect the manufacturer to provide a quality product that will last longer than 1 year?
This is the wrong attitude people. Big business has, for far too long, operated under the premise that they can make average quality products that will break in a short lifetime and just replace the product when it breaks. This works great for them because a large percentage of people will probably never send the product in for repairs. Why do you think there are companies that have a "try it for a week and send it back for a full refund" policy? They can do this because people are inherently lazy and therefore will never return the product.
I say make the company who sells the product make something of quality that will not break in less than a year!
Re:maybe.... (Score:3, Insightful)
ummm...? (Score:4, Insightful)
No. Fuck that.
We are a litigious society because we have no useful consumer protection - here, consumer protection is usually insane over-protection, and a complete lack everywhere else - and our legal system is completely fucked, and encourages frivilous lawsuits. Other countries don't have this problem, and they have much more useful consumer protection.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:0, Insightful)
Bullshit. You buy "extended warranties" because you're stupid, and want to give your money away. (Think about it - do you *really* think that a store would offer these things if they weren't making them money?)
A product like the xbox should last *much* longer than a year. If it doesn't then there is a manufacturing defect. The mechanical parts are not under excessive stress.
90-days is a cop-out.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Two wrongs don't make a right - even when it comes to multi-national corporations. And this person was an educator? Where and what did he teach?
Re:The law and why he can sue ... (Score:3, Insightful)
"If you offer a 'limited' written warranty, the law allows you to include a provision that restricts the duration of implied warranties to the duration of your limited warranty. For example, if you offer a two-year limited warranty, you can limit implied warranties to two years."
Think about it (Score:3, Insightful)
True enough, but when does it become unreasonable? Is one percent or ten percent premature failure rate acceptable? Also, ALL warranties are limited in some way, and more often than not do not cover damage due to misuse. Guess who defines "misuse"--the manufacturer. Is it really reasonable to consider operation of a home game console on a carpeted surface misuse?
HELLOOO...I think engineers would've figured out that even since before the Atari 2600, home video games are used mostly by kids, teens and college students in carpeted or otherwise "harsh" environments like basement rumpus rooms, dorm rooms, etc? The damn thing is usually hooked up to a big screen and has wired controllers for cryin' out loud...if MS wanted the XBox to sit on a clean, well ventilated shelf or desk like the PC it really is, then it should've come with wireless controllers so players could sit back from the TV without taking the machine and setting it on the floor.
Why do we have a slashdot story on a piece of hardware that stopped working? and why XBox (rhetorical question)? why not apple? i'm sure a fair amount of macs stop working within a year as well.
Because it stops working too quickly and too often? It isn't unique to
Why XBox? Becuase it is proving to be flimsy. Why not apple? Because they build quality products at this very moment. Apple HAS received a slagging from
My computer stopped working after 6 months... what did I do? I sent it in to get it repaired... for FREE because of a warranty
I'm glad your experience was relatively positive. I know of a builder here who (if possible) will immediately give you an identical replacement machine at no cost to you (and will even swap the hard drive from your machine, if the hard drive is not the cause of failure--so you don't even lose your data). Unfortunately, many companies are not so generous with their warranty policies. All too often, the warranty terms are in two columns of fine print on an A4 sheet that accidentally gets thrown away with the packing material--and the manufacturer follows it to the letter looking for any reason not to help you out. I'm not sure how Microsoft handles warranty claims, but if someone wants to sue maybe its more like the latter case.
I agree, it seems that the US is far to litigous and that the lawsuit seems frivilous. However, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say there MUST be a reason this person wasn't satisfied with just taking it in for repair. Are these machines consistently failing during warranty coverage? Did he get grief from Microsoft over the failure because they claimed he abused the product? Anyone out there care to relate their experiences?
As so
Re:What is the Warranty Period? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Dear XBOX User (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: Warranties (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as I hate having an extended warranty shoved down my throat at a retail outlet, I do appreciate the fact that at least I have a choice. If I want insurance that my product will work for 3,4,5 years then I can pay more and get it, but on the otherhand I also have the freedom to buy the product with the manufacturers rather limited warranty and not pay any more than I have to for the product. Nothing is free, reliability costs money and so does support. At least making the extended warranty a separate purchase gives the consumer the choice.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)
People buy on price. So long as that persists, there's only a small market for quality products.
Would you really pay probably five times as much for a system you can expect to run vastly more reliably and run for, say, ten years? If so, would you, by the end of the second year why you didn't buy the cheap one?
I do agree that it's gone too far (6 month HDD warranties and 90 day warranties on products that cost several hundered - WTF?!) but usually where it makes sense you have the option of a decent warranty. You also, again where it's practical to make one, usually have the option of a better made product that will last longer.
So tell me, do you have enterprise class SCSI or SATA drives in your PC? Or did you buy the cheap 120GB PATA ones?
I'll put my money where my mouth is when I care. I just bought a very nice bike with a lifetime warranty on the frame - and don't ever expect to have to call in the warranty. It doesn't cost that much more to make a bike frame _much_ better, and it's worth the premium.
On the other hand, if someone told me SUN were making dual Opteron workstations with a lifetime warranty (and build quality such that SUN didn't expect it to be used much) so why don't I get one - it's "only" $10,000 - I'd laugh in their face. To me, my PC dying is acceptable compared to the price tradeoff I get in exchange for that risk - I have a functional brain, I keep backups and know how to recover quickly so it's not that big a deal.
I often wish it was possible to buy better quality products, and am increasingly irritated by the tendency of quality to equate with overpriced wank - to pay for quality, often you're forced to pay for stupid wank factor too. Sometimes you just can't seem to get quality (I've been through three kettles recently, and have just given up hope of finding one that doesn't suck). Still, indestructable and expensive isn't for every situation, much as crap with a warranty or cheap with no warranty are both also unsuitable for many situations.
I know everyone hates MS... (Score:5, Insightful)
But in PR terms (Score:3, Insightful)
Other things to consider:
a) Sony has similar issues with disc read errors (see previous comments) and will fix PS2's with this defect for free. Somebody must have pulled the guns on them for this to happen too
b) MS wants to sell games. Supposedly the consoles come at a loss. You aren't selling many games to somebody with a problem console, hence no profit.
c) If world gets around that Xboxes are prone to early failure, will people gamble with Xbox2?
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.
No, no you don't. That's the whole point to consumer protection laws. Companies that mass produce faulty products and sell them to the public should be held liable.
This isn't simply a case of one guy getting a bad system, a lot of people are experiencing the same kinds of failures which would seem to point to either faulty components, bad design or substandard manufacturing. What if it wasn't the drives? What if shitty wiring lead to these people being shocked? Or a poor quality power supply caught fire and burned down their houses? "Hey, whoa- it caught fire and ruined your life AFTER the 90 day warranty, sorry!"
If you really follow the "take your chances" line, then I envy you. Most people can not afford to throw away cash and hope whatever they buy holds up for more than 90 days, much less hope it's a benign failure.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're all missing the point of the McDonalds case. Coffee is designed to be consumed. Yes, it's a hot liquid, but it is still designed for human consumption. Liquid that can cause third degree burns within 5 seconds is not suitable for human consumption. This is what McDonalds was selling, and they were well aware of this. It was an unsafe product, with a history of being unsafe, and the corporation took no actions to correct it until the lawsuit.
Again, if this was so simple, why was the lawsuit successful?
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ummm...? (Score:2, Insightful)
So basically Microsoft is saying that all you can expect out of your XBox is a lifespan of 3 months, and anything over that, you're playing with borrowed time?
I can see it now...."dear microsoft consumer..." (Score:2, Insightful)
1) opt-out of the class action lawsuit, so we can file suit against Microsoft later.
2) doing nothing, which makes you part of the lawsuit and you forfeit your rights to file suit over Microsoft products, but you'll be entitled to a $1.20 rebate towards your next Microsoft purchase (lawyers will collect millions).
3) attend a public hearing about the lawsuit.
Class action lawsuits are stupid and the guy whining about his xbox not working doesn't realize he is being used by the lawyer for the lawyer's benefit and not his. He needs to just go to Walmart, spend $150 on a new XBox and return the broken one in the new one's packaging...problem solved!!
Re:ummm...? (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no reason that such a large portion of Xbox owners should experience the same component failure in a short period of time, when that same type of component has been proven in other systems over a period of time to have an longer avergae life. (DVD_rom drives)
repeat after me (Score:3, Insightful)
Game cubes? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What is the Warranty Period? (Score:3, Insightful)
Or change their manufacturing techniques to make the products less likely to break in the first two years. That's more the point of minimum-warranty laws. The cost will certainly affect the company's bottom line and will be reflected in prices, yes, but it's not a sure thing that the cost will exceed the cost that would have been paid by the company's customers if the law weren't there. (If one out of two widgets breaks, and it raises prices by 5% to change that failure rate to one out of a hundred, then you could argue it's a win for the public.)
I happen to agree that it's better to let people choose their risk level -- if they have ready access to all the pertinent information about the reliability of products from different manufacturers. But companies are not always forthcoming about their products' problems (big surprise) and for a lot of purchases, it's simply not practical to scour the library and/or the Internet doing extensive background research to make a perfectly informed choice.
Even with the law in place, consumers in Europe are free to purchase extended warranties or not, and they're responsible for gathering information about what they're about to buy. Some products are still much better than others. The law simply raises the minimum standard that's expected of companies. It says when you buy a product, you're going to get what you think you're getting, not a piece of junk that'll fall apart as soon as you pull it out of the box.
And even the US has product safety laws, which are really just another aspect of the same thing -- a way of relieving the public as a whole of the requirement to be walking encyclopedias of product knowledge just to function in day-to-day life.
Re:Why can't he just return it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ummm...? (Score:1, Insightful)
I expect Iraq has better consumer protection laws than the US!
I've always been incredulous of the lack of consumer protection in the US compared with the UK and the EU. No way could you sell a product such as a game console over here with only a 90 day warranty. NINETY DAYS?! As you may have read, the EU stipulates a minimum 2 year warranty period, although not every EU country has implemented that, the others usually have 1 year.
I find it entirely logical that as a consumer I should buy a product and have it last for a reasonable amount of time. If it should break within that reasonable time, then it should be repaired by whoever is liable, either the store that sold it to me, or the manufacturer. 90 days is not a reasonable time for a games console. Extended Warranties aren't the answer either, unless they are no-fault and last for a significantly longer time (e.g., 10 years for a TV instead of 2).
Simply put, if I buy a game console, and it fails within a year and I didn't pour a pint of beer over it by accident, then I fully expect that I should be entitled to get it fixed or replaced. I don't see why I should be down on the money I paid for it.
To me, a 90 day warranty screams "This product is so dodgy we won't even stand by it"