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Role Playing (Games)

World of Warcraft Honor System Live 121

Posted by Zonk
from the tread-carefully-young-warrior dept.
Available now from the World of Warcraft Patch servers, the Honor System has been put into production. The Patch Notes are available on the official site and besides the Honor System includes new art, bug fixes, and new live events in Kalimdor and the Gurubashi Arena. There will also be, starting in May, a "Children's Week" celebrated in Orgrimmar and Stormwind. "It is a time to give back to the innocents of war: the orphans!"
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World of Warcraft Honor System Live

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  • by Malor (3658) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @11:42AM (#12282881) Journal
    How can you be an orphan when your parents respawn every 10 minutes?
  • live? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by JVert (578547) <corganbilly@@@hotmail...com> on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @11:43AM (#12282895) Journal
    It is live when I can login and download it.

    It is not very live at the moment.
    • Re:live? (Score:2, Funny)

      by cypher073 (864209)
      Download went fine at least. But, it'll be live when I can log in, get booted, sit through a week-long extended downtime, fight with the authentication server, and finally get credited 24-hours of gameplay and full rest state. That might be sometime next week.
      • Yea, I was off the lock for a month and just finished my last 3 levels this weekend to get my mount so a rest state at this point wouldn't be soo bad. I still love you blizzard, after hating you for a month or so, but I still wonder if they are taking this seriously. Website is knocked off its butt time after time again. There is no excuse for that. If they can't make a webcluster that stays up what are we to think of their game server?
    • by k_187 (61692)
      well I just finished downloading and patching, so you can download it, you just can't play it.
  • by softspokenrevolution (644206) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @11:44AM (#12282909) Journal
    Well, at least they can't blame this lag on naked night elves dancing in front of the Auction House. Take that patch notes and website server.
  • Evil (Score:1, Funny)

    by Irashtar (836973)
    If you play, say, a troll, do you still have to follow the honour system?
    • I doubt it because you'll most likely be playing as an AC hiding behind your real identity!
    • No race is really evil in WoW; at the end of the day, every race was used by some greater evil or very sorry about what they've done. No one HAS to follow the honor system, but the rewards and rules are equal to every race.
  • Bad day.. (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    To be on a pvp server!
    My poor level 32 mage won't know what hit him.. Nor will the level ~30s that run into him.
  • by JorenDahn (670270) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @11:56AM (#12283065) Homepage
    PvP Honor ranks and corresponding rewards listed here [worldofwarcraft.com].

    Official images of PvP armor sets [worldofwarcraft.com] Wow, sexy.
    Official images of the new mounts [worldofwarcraft.com]
    Official listing of PvP weapons [worldofwarcraft.com] No pics though. :(
  • by Chi Hsuan Men (767453) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @11:57AM (#12283067) Homepage
    ...to see how this will affect Horde / Alliance relations.

    I play on Sargeras, which is a PvP server. Considering that it is a PvP server, there are a lot of clashes between the Horde and Alliance. Raids are constantly led against Horde and Alliance towns alike and in contested areas, "ganking" is a popular activity.

    Though the interesting thing to note is when Alliance and Horde play nice. In certain areas, Horde and Alliance co-exist (to a reasonable degree) as they are BOTH attempting to complete quests.

    For example, I was in Felwood last night working on a quest and a couple of Horde were right next to me killing MOBs and we pretty much go into a rhythm were I would kill one, then they would kill one, so on and so forth. At the end, we completed our objective (fill the vial with corrupted water), saluted each other, and went on our merry way.

    In this example, we played nice with each, because it was mutually beneficial for us to do so, after all, we both needed to complete the quest... ...however, with the new patch, it will be just as beneficial, if not MORE for us to simply kill each other, as that will give us honor points which will eventually translate in p|-|47 l00t.

    While the honor system MIGHT curb the rampant "problem" that is ganking (I don't see it as a problem, it's a pvp server, I deal with it) I think it will definitely escalate the desire for Horde and Alliance to kill each other, and make it more difficult to complete quests in contested areas.

    • The loot isn't that great. It's decent, for sure, but you can put together something as good from instance drops.

      Which is precisely how it should be. The PvP stuff should just look damn cool.
    • For example, I was in Felwood last night working on a quest and a couple of Horde were right next to me killing MOBs and we pretty much go into a rhythm were I would kill one, then they would kill one, so on and so forth. At the end, we completed our objective (fill the vial with corrupted water), saluted each other, and went on our merry way.

      I play on a carebear server, and that is the way it is supposed to work (but maybe with rude gestures sometimes instead of just salutes). I imagine on a PvP server
    • by linzeal (197905) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @12:26PM (#12283465) Homepage Journal
      I play on the Ner'Zul server and as the rogue class officer for the 3rd largest guild on the server I have been anticipating with dread this move to an Honor System for months. PVP servers now will have an even steeper leveling curve that was not in place when the game went live. Places like Tarren Mills and Southshore will be bloodbaths during primetime and probably well into off time. Many people in my guild are considering dropping the PVE element of the game altogethter to have ganking parties 40 people strong that will kill en masse at the higher level neutral and enemy towns.

      The game may change too radically for some and this might force some of the more reticent players on PVP servers to consider how much griefing [wikipedia.org] they will allow in their online experience. When you are paying upwards of 50 bucks [amazon.com] for the game and 15 bucks [blizzard.com] a month for the game the casual player who plays an hour or two a night is not going to be too pleased to not be able to meaningfully interact with the virtual world as he has done for the past 6 months there might be the addition of dishonor points for player kills. Which is what even a lot of us more hardcore folk would consider the minimal insurance that we will not be /spit on , ganked and griefed for the entierity of our online time.

      • by meta-monkey (321000) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @12:55PM (#12283897) Journal
        I don't think it'll be much of a problem for people at lower levels. At level 60, I don't get honor points from ganking level 30s. The honor sytem lewt is only usable by high-level players, and is geared towards them. So there won't be roaming bands of level 40s hunting for level 35s in STV...they're still going to be leveling to get to 60 where the honor system really kicks in.

        That said, people level 50-59 are absolutely screwed. They're going to be hunted down mercilessly. A level 50 player is still green (honorable kill worthy) to a level 60, so that guy is gonna get ganked. Then the ganker is going to call in all his guild mates, and they'll camp him and take turns killing him so they each get an honor kill until the guy gives up and logs. Essentially, once you hit 50 you better either hide in an instance or only go outside with a full raid group until you're 60.
        • Then the ganker is going to call in all his guild mates, and they'll camp him and take turns killing him so they each get an honor kill until the guy gives up and logs.

          This hopefully won't be a problem. I recall Blizzard saying that there are diminished returns for players of the same guild killing players of another guild. Whether or not this was actually implemented I do not know.
          • by meta-monkey (321000) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @03:00PM (#12285371) Journal
            I don't think there's anything like that...there are diminishing returns for the same player killing the same player over and over again, but not guild. That doesn't matter if you're in a group or not...the first time you'll get 100% of the honor points you would get, based on the group bonuses, and the next time you'll get fewer, and fewer, until probably after you've killed the same guy 4-5 times you won't get any points for killing him at all for a day or so. I don't think guilds have anything to do with it. If that were the case, large guilds woud be a serious disadvantage, and you'd be better off just disbanding your in-game guild but still teaming up over Ventrillo or something.
            • I can't find the post on the WoW forums because their servers are toast right now, but I know some type of guild diminishing returns was talked about. This was to reduce both corpse camping and "secret agreements" between guilds of opposite factions. They don't wan't guilds to beat up on each other repeatably just to gain honor faster.
              • I know some type of guild diminishing returns was talked about

                If so, then it will encourage people to work together, but not join a formal guild. For example, you can gank a few 50s somewhere, then call on chat for the other 60s of your faction to come get them on ressurect.

                and "secret agreements" between guilds of opposite factions.

                The specific term for those "secret agreements" are "fight club", btw. The reasoning should be obvious.
        • Also to note, that level 50 people (especially healers, since they tend to team up with characters higher level than themselves) will be gaining points from level 40-60 kills...
        • Of course, the lvl 50 is either a) on a PvP server, where constant gankfest is what he has had for the last 30 levels or b) on a PvE server, where he is immune to attack unless he wanders into an enemy factional capital or attempts to strike one of their NPCs.
      • Actually there are no dishonor points or dishonor penalties implemented yet IIRC. The system keeps track of dishonorable kills so that blizzard can identify whether or not to institure penalites.
      • When you are paying upwards of 50 bucks for the game and 15 bucks a month for the game the casual player who plays an hour or two a night is not going to be too pleased to not be able to meaningfully interact with the virtual world as he has done for the past 6 months

        Really, he should've thought of that before joining a PVP server. If you're a casual guy who wants to run dungeons without worrying about PK, then join a PVE server!

        However, it would be honorable for Blizzard to offer all PVP characters a f
      • I too play on Ner'zhul and just like you said Southshore and Tarren Mill is just a bloodbath going back and forth. It's like a huge cartoon dustcloud going back and forth while one side leverages to get the upper hand and than counterattack the other side's town. (It was great) However lvl 30's in that area just become causalties of this constant battle. I'd just avoid that zone altogether for a couple of weeks.
    • by Achoi77 (669484) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @12:45PM (#12283745)
      I too play on a pvp server (Mannoroth), and have tested out the honor system on the test server. To be truthful, the 'phat lewtz' that are given thru pvp awards will be *very* difficult to get, as it is percentage based. The top rank (14) will only be awarded to .1% of all the total population, which translates to 1 out of every 1000. For a server with 30,000, that means only 30. For a smaller server with 10,000, only 10(!!!) will be able to acheive rank 14 and be awarded the big gear.

      With such a difficulty ranking, it's better off if you and your guildmates farmed out MC or something.

      That said, it will be a rough time for the first few weeks, since people will not realize that the honor system only kicks into high gear for endgame people. What I DO suspect is that the rampant lowbie ganking will ebb quite a bit to acceptable levels, Tarren Mill not withstanding, and that we will see a LOT more raids on the capital cities. (which should be fun!)

      • The top rank (14) will only be awarded to .1% of all the total population, which translates to 1 out of every 1000. For a server with 30,000, that means only 30. For a smaller server with 10,000, only 10(!!!) will be able to acheive rank 14 and be awarded the big gear.

        So? Convince everyone to double their number of alts, and you're up to double the high-rankers. Considering how easy it is to make alts (is there a cap?); and how many people won't be trying for top-level, and you can reduce the odds signi
      • Actually, it's the top .1% of the contribution PER FACTION. It's also not a direct factor of population, but of contribution points. A character that never gets an honorable kill does not add any contribution points to the pool, and so is out fo the equation.

        Basically, honorable kills add to the "contribution points" of the faction. Rankings are based on THAT number, and are recalculated weekly. (I'm not sure how they're working ranking decay if you stop PvP;ing for a week...)
    • While the honor system MIGHT curb the rampant "problem" that is ganking (I don't see it as a problem, it's a pvp server, I deal with it) I think it will definitely escalate the desire for Horde and Alliance to kill each other, and make it more difficult to complete quests in contested areas.

      That's the entire point. If you're not 60, be prepared to be ganked early and often. The entire game is now PVP, especially since Battlegrounds isn't in the game yet. If you need to level up yet, good luck, it just
    • by Minna Kirai (624281) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @03:48PM (#12285914)
      Though the interesting thing to note is when Alliance and Horde play nice. In certain areas, Horde and Alliance co-exist (to a reasonable degree) as they are BOTH attempting to complete quests.

      It's a little interesting to note that the enmity between Horde & Alliance is maintained by what is essentially NPC bigotry. In towns with NPC guards, players of the other factions will automatically be attacked. Fighting back will flag them for PVP, attracting the nearby PCs to come pound on them.

      But in the wilderness, there are no NPC faction-members to start fights. And since the two sides aren't warring by default in that situation, they tend to cooperate like you described.

      with the new patch, it will be just as beneficial, if not MORE for us to simply kill each other,

      The game is called "Warcraft" after all- you're supposed to be at war, and that means attacking on sight. From the perspective of authors trying to make a game world fulfill their longstanding preconceptions, that effect will be exactly what they want.

      make it more difficult to complete quests in contested areas.

      Hey, if Honor points will be giving better l00t anyhow, why bother questing? The quest location becomes like a meeting-place for Honor battles, with the quest reward a consolation prize for when you're standing around there and don't meet an enemy party.
      • Hey, if Honor points will be giving better l00t anyhow, why bother questing? The quest location becomes like a meeting-place for Honor battles, with the quest reward a consolation prize for when you're standing around there and don't meet an enemy party.

        The phat lewt has level requirements, and the good stuff is lvl 55+ I think. If you never quest, you don't level, so you never get to use the lewt.

        I almost think you should get a certain amount of experience for defeating a comparable level opponent.

        • The phat lewt has level requirements, and the good stuff is lvl 55+ I think.

          Well of course. The Honor system is basically just for level 60 (max). Essentially, players collect XP to go from level 1-60, then collect Honor Points afterwards.

          For a non-60 player to hunt other players is too dangerous to be worth it, because you'll run into someone higher.
          • I don't know about it only being a 60+ activity. I'm 52 and I got plenty of honorable kills (and deaths) in the Crossroads today. I also saw a lot of guys lower thanme PvPing.

            And whats the big deal if you do run into someone higher? Not like there is a death penalty beside a little wasted time.
  • Worldofwar [worldofwar.net] also has the patch notes [worldofwar.net].
  • by meta-monkey (321000) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @12:26PM (#12283468) Journal
    I can't say I'm looking forward to this patch. I chose a PvP server to PvP...I still love that. I just don't like the way the rewards are implemented.

    I have a wife and a job, and don't have as much time to play as the college students and bums who make up most of my guild. With the PvE stuff, I might not always have my stuff first, but I'd get it eventually. I got to 60 about a month after my friends. They had time to run three instances a day for their class sets. I could only run maybe one before bed, but that was fine. I didn't get my stuff first, but I got it eventually. Now we're working through Molten Core and have killed Onyxia several times, and I've got pieces of my epic class sets. I'll get the rest, eventually, too.

    Now with the PvP system, you get your rank determined by the percentage of server-wide kills you got that week. Only a certain percentage of players per server will be able to get the higher PvP ranks. It doesn't matter if I'm the greatest PvP'er who ever lived, I will never get the epic PvP sets, simply because there's no way I can get more kills in the 1-2 hours a night I have to play than the people who have 8 hours a day to play. With the PvE stuff, I wouldn't be there FIRST, but I'd be there EVENTUALLY. With the PvP system, I'll never get there, and will only be somewhere in the middle of the pack, forever. Eh.
    • I share your concerns 100 percent. I'm also worried about the effect this will have on my guild and non-PvP play on my server. We're just now getting into a rhythm with Molten Core, often with our entire guild online and in the same instance. What will happen if half the members decide they prefer PvP and eventually battlegrounds? We'll have to rebuild two groups again or convince people to commit to a 6-night run at MC. Meanwhile I'm at work during the day and everyone else is building up their PvP st
      • I understand your concerns about splitting the guild, but if the guys want to PvP more, then they should PvP. They pay to enjoy the game, so let them.

        Plus, it looks like the PvP loot is not really better than instance loot, however it is PvP oriented. (different gear for different purposes) For example, the PvP hunter gear decreases the cooldown of their concussive shot. (a snare with a possible stun) It's one of The most important skills to a hunter in PvP. Its useful in PvE as well, but rarely do yo
    • by Daikiki (227620) <`ln.oodanaw' `ta' `ikikiad'> on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @12:48PM (#12283770) Homepage Journal
      You do have a point, of course, but a game like this needs to cater to many types of people. WoW has always been very friendly to the more casual players; much of the content can be taken on solo, and the rest state bonus even gives casual players a bit of a leg up by giving players who aren't online as frequently as some an experience bonus for their kills. As you've said, even as a casual player, you will be able to take on all of the challenges the game has to offer and acquire all of the uber-loot eventually.

      Having said that, I think it's perfectly valid to reward the hardcore players for their efforts as well. The gear and perks you can acquire in the PVP honor system are pretty cool, granted, but they're hardly essential to your continued enjoyment of the game. There are people out there who play WoW for 40 hours a week or more, and I think it's fully justified to reward people who put a lot of time and effort into the game with some unique items, benefits, and perks. Simply letting them get the stuff everybody else will eventually get as well, only faster, just won't hold a player's attention. Bear in mind that it doesn't actually take that long to reach the level cap at 60, especially if you're a dedicated player. Until now there hasn't been much of a mechanism to keep players engrossed once they've hit the cap. I think the new honor system should fit the bill nicely without any serious drawbacks to more casual players like us.
      • by Anonymous Coward
        The thing is, if you see the "rewards" of playing as anything other than the fun you have while you play it, then it's time to step away and do something else for a while.

        "The little cartoon character which I control is now holding a cool-looking shield, and some of the numbers on the character sheet are higher" is not a reward, it's just an interesting event.
        • The thing is, if you see the "rewards" of playing as anything other than the fun you have while you play it, then it's time to step away and do something else for a while.

          Nonsense. Almost every video game has a system of rewards that entice you to play them more. You enjoy the act of playing them, but there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and that light is an even better way to enjoy them as a reward for completing certain objectives. If you beat Devil May Cry 3 on both Normal and Hard modes, you get
      • I think there are ways to reward people who play more with perks that don't advantage them over people who play less. Take these ideas for example:
        • even faster mount (10%)
        • faster casts for mount and heartstones
        • faster cooldown on Heartstone
        • a second heartstone
        • unlimited free gryphon rides
        • portals instead of boats

        These are just ideas and I'm sure smarter people than myself can think of better ideas. They are already advantaged by more drops because they get more chances at them but do they have to hav

        • I agree with a lot of that, but a faster mount and/or faster mount cast certainly is an advantage over other players... 10% faster mount than the next guy means you can get away, or chase down, more effectively.
        • I know you were just throwing ideas out there, but those first two suggestions related to mounts are definite advantages in PvP. The ability to run down your opponent or mount up faster than them helps tremendously.

          -prator
      • And yet you don't think about the guilds that came from other games that *hate* running instances for items. This patch, these items, and whatever seems to be Blizz trying to cater to the Shadowbane guilds that came over together. The EQ guilds seem to be content running the upper instances, but the 10-20 member tight knit pvp guilds have nothing to do... they have thier blue set pieces and no motivation or need (or the numbers) for the MC drops. They want the added conflict...

        So yes, this is definetly the
      • Yeah, because, you know, we want to reward the people that play the game unhealthy amounts of time. Let's screw everyone who doesn't play at least 60 hours a week!

        Playing 60+ hours a week isn't dedication, it's stupidity. It's living a one dimensional life. Rewarding this isn't "justified" or "valid." It's brain-dead, plain and simple. It's the designers saying "we don't know how to reward play based on skill, so you should all play as much as you possibly can!" The players who play this game as a wa
        • why shouldn't they have the high ranks..? as you said, it's a game of time - not skill.

          well, maybe pvp is going to be a bit about skill, about skill of learning/automating the moves so you can get the advantage(the duels are already running-around-the-other contests).
        • If you want rewards based off of pure skill, then play FPS games. If you don't want people being rewarded for the time they spend developing their character WHY ARE YOU PLAYING AN RPG?

          It's not yours, or anyone else's, position to judge what someone wants to do with their time. Do you smoke? Do you drive over the speed-limit? Do you drink at all? Do you neglect to wear sun screen on sunny days? Do you work too much? Do you avoid socializing with your co-workers because you don't like people? Are you
          • I'm not saying "playing video games too much" is bad. I'm saying that doing nothing else besides play video games is bad. If you're playing 60+ hours a week, you're not doing very much else, and I think that doing anything that much is bad, not just video games.

            And I'm not judging the people who are doing that. They're free to live their lives the way they want. However, I think it's horrible that a game would be designed to *encourage* that.

            I never said that I didn't want to reward people for time pl
            • Let me put it to you this way. I played 2 and a half hours and got about 450 kills last night. My guildmates who played *all day* got that much leading up to that 2.5 hour spurt. I won't reach the top rank (and if you aren't willing to put in a lot of time, you're not going to reach the top rank in PvE either - by the time you get through Molten Core, all 6-8 hours that'll take you if you don't wipe once - Blackwing Lair will be in, and other raid instances will start to trickle in as well. Have you bee
      • You can make the argument that you don't need something to enjoy the game about any system. However, I think there is a reason why WoW blasted past a million subscribers and the runner up has less then half that. WoW is made for the casual gamer. Period. A casual gamer can log on, level up, and never see something that he can't eventually get. Log a casual gamer into EQ and the situation is very different. You get to see stuff all the time that takes an insane amount of free time to achieve.

        The probl
        • If the casual user can get the 'uber armor' its not going to be very uber is it? You suggest maybe WoW just become an FPS that you have to wait 3-4 months to fully activate?

          Funny how many casual players seem to have this sense of bitterness to the players who can play more (jealous? I am. I have guildmates who play more than I work in a week, and if I could get away with it, I might too.)

          By suggesting that Blizzard's honor system somehow moves to alienate the casual fanbase, you're also suggesting that
    • While I sympathize completely, being in the same position, isn't this what Blizzard is intending? They want these leaders to be the people to fear if you are on the other side, or idolize if you are their allies. You wouldn't get the epic set because you aren't the best. They don't want everyone to have the epic sets, no matter how long it takes, because then it wouldn't be a mark of authority. I suppose it would make sense for them to offer some secondary reward that was accumulative... maybe discounts for
    • It doesn't matter if I'm the greatest PvP'er who ever lived, I will never get the epic PvP sets, simply because there's no way I can get more kills in the 1-2 hours a night I have to play than the people who have 8 hours a day to play.

      To balance this somewhat, the Honor System benefits from an offline bonus the same way Rest XP does. When you are logged out, you are slowly gaining bonus points added to your honorable kills when you are logged in, the same way you get bonus XP from being logged out a lon
    • You seemed like you've enjoyed the game so far. Well, what's changed? So there are a few epic (honor) items that are REALLLY hard to get. How does that make it less fun for you?
      • i'm worried that my guild mates who have a lot more time than I do will only be interested in PvP, and I will never be able to earn enough honor to progress my character though that system due to lack of time. They will no longer be interested in PvE, though which I could still advance, albiet more slowly than my guild mates. I'm worried my character progression stops here.
    • I am curious how a casual gamer who plays 1-2 hrs a night has killed killed onyxia several times and runs MC. It just doesnt add up, i dont see casual gamers runnin those instances because they require so much time.
      • Well, slightly more than casual. Still, 1-2 hours a night is about right. However, I bought the game the day it came out.

        Onyxia only takes about 30 minutes, once a week. MC is more like an entire night deal, but again only once a week.
  • by agrounds (227704) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @12:58PM (#12283927)
    The problem is that they have implemented an Honor system, that rewards players for continual ganking, without the supplementary Dishonor system to discourage griefing.

    --There are rich rewards to be had for slaughtering any and all opponents of roughly the same level.
    --There are no penalties for slaughtering any and all oppenents of lower levels.

    While I realize that there was no discouragment before to stop this.. my priest still bears the scars of Stranglethorn Vale, what many fear this will lead to is roaming armadas of factions farming Honor points by killing everything in sight. I see this being the most likely outcome.

    The server populations had already become overrun with NightElf and Undead stunlock rogues. There are more rogues than any other single class, as they are vastly overpowered for levelling and moreover singularly designed for wholesale murder (I used to play a rogue myself, before I retired him out of disgust for the easy win). Now, instead of farming instances and working toward saving money for great items, they can simply take the low road and farm players trying to simply quest and level a little.

    Blizzard has done a major disservice to the player community, and I feel the ramifications of this will resound within the userbase as characters are dropped in favor of more rogues. They have already nerfed most of the classes into oblivion and back, this just justifies my belief that Blizzard developers do not play on live PvP servers and see what we see. I suspect that my time will be spent on a PvE server very soon.

    Before you fire off a reply with a 'STFU n00b' or 'Cry some more' consider carefully how difficult it will be to run Molten Core, Maraudon, Dire Maul, Stratholm, and the like when you have effectively discouraged most other classes from levelling other than rogues.
    • I do agree with you, but any implemented dishonor system cannot be as naive as to simply penalize you with dishonor for killing a grey pc. There are countless situations where you *must* kill players that fit that criteria. Luckily, I play on a PvE server, so this really doesn't affect me much unless I choose to let it (but I will, of course).
      • Sure, but the developers know that. No reason at all why that can't be taken into account. Simply penalise people who statistically stand out as killing more than their share of 'greys'.

        Eventually the statistics will reflect the "background noise" that represents the unavoidable killings.
        • Which is why a dishon system HAS been coded. it simply hasn't been turned on. I'm sure it will still gather data so the developers can determine if there is anyone standing out statistically and correct if needed.

          Besides, I just don't see this having any impact at all on players on PvE servers if they don't PvP. Don't flag, and you're unaffected. On PvP servers ganking is already the norm, so I doubt it will change that much.
          • Looks like it did change.

            Went and messed about last night on a PvP server with a 60 and lo and behold, Blizzard has implemented a dishonor system.

            Huge packs of rabid gankers running around fighting at 10:1 odds, corpse camping, causing lag and getting rewarded for it.

            Not to say that didn't already happen, but from what I saw it's far far worse now.
    • Well, keep in mind that you won't get honor points from killing players who are "gray" to you. That is, players who are much lower level. So if players are intent on farming people for honor points, they need to be killing people level 50-60. Camping level 30s won't do them any good, and they'll just be wasting their time when they could be earning honor points. The PvP rewards are only usable by level 58-60s anyway. I don't think this will have much impact on people pre-50.

      That said, level 50 people
      • That said, level 50 people are SCREWED! They are going to get farmed until they quit the game!

        Their best bet is to team up with some friendly 60s, and act as bait to lure enemy 60s to chase them. When the friendly 60s you've called come to save you, you can put in a few hits on the enemy 60s, earning you some big XP when they go down. (moving you closer to be 60 yourself)

        They're green to level 60s, so they're honorable kill worthy.

        Hopefully a 50 will be worth much less honor than a fellow 60.
    • Before you fire off a reply with a 'STFU n00b' or 'Cry some more' consider carefully how difficult it will be to run Molten Core, Maraudon, Dire Maul, Stratholm, and the like when you have effectively discouraged most other classes from levelling other than rogues.

      I already see probems for rogues (and hunters) trying to get into groups for high level instances. There are simply too many of them. The problem may get worse with the honor system, but I think it will be self correcting, as people realize that
      • You have a valid and insightful point. I must admit I am somewhat spoiled, as my new main since moving to Laughing Skull a month ago, is a priest. I can count the number of groups I have been turned away from in 44 levels on two fingers. When I played my rogue, I was continually turned away unless I knew someone in the group, and my old warlock main was about 50/50 on getting into instance runs.

        That said: As a priest: Much love to the warriors! You keep us alive.

        Hopefully the eventual release of Batt
        • " must admit I am somewhat spoiled, as my new main since moving to Laughing Skull a month ago, is a priest. I can count the number of groups I have been turned away from in 44 levels on two fingers."

          That has to do with demographics. No one, except people like you and me, wants to be the "weak" Priest. That's OK, because the fewer Priests there are, the more in demand their skills will be.

          Plus, Power Word: Shield is damn cool. I feel like I'm in a Star Trek episode: "Shields Up".
    • by ildon (413912) on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @02:25PM (#12284993)
      what many fear this will lead to is roaming armadas of factions farming Honor points by killing everything in sight. I see this being the most likely outcome.


      You fail to acknowledge that perhaps this was the intended outcome. The game is desinged around player conflict. The non-PvP or "Normal" servers are designed for people who are not interested (or less interested) in this type of conflict.

      You don't hop on a game of Quake and start complaining when people kill you, do you?
      • With Quake you are on a level playing field. You get the same weapons, same armour as soon as you log in. On WoW you're not, you have groups of people well above your level ganking you, if you don't have buddies their level to help then all you can do is log off/go to another area.
    • by Chyeld (713439) <chyeld AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday April 19, 2005 @03:02PM (#12285400)
      Consider this:

      People who are already ganking lowbies are doing so for one of two reasons. Either they like being a-holes, or they are bored and have no incentive to do otherwise.

      People who are interested in gaining Honor are going to do so for two reasons. They want recognition and they want phat loot.

      If someone is already ganking, then the Honor system currently gives them incentive to concentrate on higher targets. So the majority of the bored ones are more than likely going to switch.

      If someone isn't already ganking, then the Honor system gives them a reason not to. Not because they will be directly penalized by it, but because wasting time on killing lowbies when others are going for real kills is going to drop them lower in the rankings.

      You will never lose the a-holes. Even if you instituted an insta-perma-ban on people who killed anyone grey to them, you'd still have people with too much time on their hands and a fist full of momma's credit cards who are willing to level someone up and get that one kill just to be a dick. But I don't see how this is going to increase their numbers at all.

      What I'm really waiting to see is what happens when they finally introduce the Battlegrounds. Once those are in, you really won't have time to PvP outside of them unless you are just waiting for your turn to go in. From what I can tell, the oportunities to gain honor inside the BG will more than outstrip the opportunities outside.
      • One problem I've been running into recently (and am curious to see how pvp honor system handles) is getting ganged up on. I can rock anyone my lvl (I'm a shamy, that's my job) but two peeps 1-2 lvls below me can rock the f)#$% outta me. Pretty lame when I'm questing, but can I get honor for almost killing someone?
    • There are more rogues than any other single class, as they are vastly overpowered for levelling and moreover singularly designed for wholesale murder

      And for every person who says nerf rogues, someone else will say nerf shaman, nerf priests, nerf paladins. Everyone thinks every class is overpowered, when the fact is you're either a good player or you're not.
      • Nobody thinks mages are overpowered :)
        • I think Mages are just about the most balanced class for PvE. The talent trees are amazing, they've got multiple forms of creature control, and specializing in any of the three trees will yield someone with about equal levelling power. Frost may damage more slowly, but you can line your enemies up and go from one to the next with no downtime. Fire has a little more downtime for regen and has to be more careful with multiple enemies. Arcane is just absurd damage and reduced threat, meaning grouping becom
      • I understand what you are saying. I have never called for the nerf stick, nor do I think that is an answer to the players who cry in the General forums that they got killed by a better player in another class. Nerfing is not the answer. It -is- Blizz's answer however to a lot of problems that don't exist outside of whiny little kids' ranting posts.

        That said: As a former rogue, I feel somewhat justified in saying they are overpowered. I am a big enough person to recognize it for what it is. This is th
  • Does anyone have the downloadable v1.3.1 to v1.4 patch so we don't have to use Blizzard's downloader? Dial-up connections suck for it especially when I can't cap the upload.

    Thank you in advance. :)
  • I hate patch day.

    Nearly every server is down in some way or another (even if the specific server shows up it is either barely up and non-functioning or lying or both).

    That said, for the short amount of time I was able to connect, I could tell that Tarren Mill was -definately- under attack. That's the honor system for you.
  • Back of Rogues (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Holdstrong (647528)
    For starters, on my Server, Rogues are NOT the most played class. In fact, they are not even in the top 3. So stop making generalizations about the entire game bassed on your experience on one server. Next, complete stun lock is a myth. It just doesn't happen the way the Nerf Rogue crowd would have you believe. Stun lock is a method of keeping your opponent stunned so you can build up combo points and get off your big damage move. Stun lock ONLY happens if the Rogue gets off the first hit, and is only
    • hahahahaha*gasping for air* hahahah... excuse me... lol... lmao.. hahahaha *can't stop laughing*... i always figured WoW, after a while, would turn out like EQ, wher the powerful classes whined more than the weaker ones... guess I was right! Yeah... it's hard for rogues to get off the first hit in a one on one pvp... really hard.. not like they could walk up undetected huh? That could NEVER happen...!!! Rogues were whining hardcore at the thought of track hidden being upgraded... looks like it got upgra
    • For starters, on my Server, Rogues are NOT the most played class. In fact, they are not even in the top 3. So stop making generalizations about the entire game bassed on your experience on one server.

      I'll say the same to you, especially since your server is an abberation. Rogues are the top class on most servers.

      Next, complete stun lock is a myth. Stun lock ONLY happens if the Rogue gets off the first hit, and is only successful in a one on one environment because any other damage to stunned player wi

  • So I go home happy, tonight.

    Woot! I can't wait! I have mail coming in. Auctions going off. Guildies to see. Quests to complete and/or turn in. Yesterday was awesome, and tonight's been all planned out!

    I open WoW and discover a new patch is on it's way to my machine. Oh, GOODIE!

    ... wait ... downloading.
    ... wait ... patching.
    ... wait ... (remember) time to recover/reconfigure UI mods.
    ... wait ... reconnect after 1 hour in the queue. [WUPS! disconnected from server]
    ... wait ... reconnect after 1 hour in t

  • I have't read the most recent version of the honor system, but if it's the same as what they proposed last month, well, it's going to make things worse.

    The have to institute the dishonor part of the system for it to work well. Otherwise they're just encouraging a new form of ganking. And as all ratings are FOR LIFE (remember, if you stop playing a character it does not go away!), the people who rise to the top of the system first, will always be at the top, even for a long time after when they stop playing
    • The have to institute the dishonor part of the system for it to work well. Otherwise they're just encouraging a new form of ganking. And as all ratings are FOR LIFE (remember, if you stop playing a character it does not go away!), the people who rise to the top of the system first, will always be at the top, even for a long time after when they stop playing, paying, or even living.

      Umm no. Ranking is recalculated weekly based on your participation vs the rest of the factions participation. If you stop

  • I've been playing in the test server for a while, and I will explain what the Honour System came down to basically.

    Forget about doing quests, leveling, etc if you are over level 20 and under level 60. Now all constested areas are full of level 60s, and they will kill ANYTHING, since there is no dishonour.

    The ONLY way of leveling now is by doing instances.

    What actually happens, and blizzard probably didn't expect, is that level 60s that usually were down at high level instances or dueling, are now raiding
    • Forget about doing quests, leveling, etc if you are over level 20 and under level 60. Now all constested areas are full of level 60s, and they will kill ANYTHING, since there is no dishonour.

      I would be willing to bet that the population of the test server was HEAVILY skewed toward level 60's. Why? Everyone else is busy levelling on the live servers. I was on the test server, and it was ALL lvl 60's as far as the eye can see. You can't use that experience to predict how things will go on the live ser

  • I thought it was odd that my partner at work would be out 2 days in a row...

FORTRAN is a good example of a language which is easier to parse using ad hoc techniques. -- D. Gries [What's good about it? Ed.]

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