The Scoop on the Xbox 360's Embedded OS? 504
An anonymous reader writes "When the Xbox 360 was launched two weeks ago amid much brouhaha over its custom-designed IBM PowerPC-based CPU with 3 symmetrical cores running at 3.2GHz each, WindowsForDevices.com wondered aloud, 'What OS runs inside the Xbox 360?' Now, the website thinks it has found the answer to its question. No, it's not Linux or BSD, nor a derivative of Longhorn or Windows CE."
My question is. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Rumor as News meme (Score:1, Insightful)
Launched? (Score:3, Insightful)
IBM is making out well (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Heathens! (Score:4, Insightful)
What a letdown! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:IBM is making out well (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:PowerPC vs Intel (Score:3, Insightful)
MS use PPC because it's better, in this case because of its lower heat output. they can do this because a console is designed mostly from scratch so components can be chosen on their qualities. with general computing, there's so much investment in x86 that a lot of people have to go with it whether its crap or not. just like many people have to go with Windows and Office even though they wouldn't consider touching it if they were working from a clean slate.
Re:What OS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:My question is. . . (Score:1, Insightful)
On the contrary, I was told that MS actually sold the xbox console at a loss hoping to make up lost revenues with licensing fees for games.
And just for the record, this is exactly what they did. The amount of pirating that goes on with console games is FAR lower than the amount that goes on with PC games, yet PC game giants like Blizzard and Valve are still going strong. Why? Because they sell the software for such a huge profit (you pay $40 for something it costs them less than a cent to make) that even if 90% of their games are pirated, they still come out ahead. (Yes, I know development costs a lot but making the physical copies costs next to nothing)
Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My question is. . . (Score:2, Insightful)
Love or hate Microsoft you are basically saying, "you know Microsoft made a good enough console for all these developers to create games. Games which I spend MY time playing and enjoying. But since I hate Microsoft, I will pass the consequences of my hate onto the game developers by depriving them of their profits. But they better not quit making games just becuase they aren't getting any money, those pussies!"
You have to pay. I hope Xbox2 falls flat on its face, but Microsoft has learned in the home entertainment game, just like they did in the PC game.
OMGWTFBBQ, you have to pay??? Say it isn't so?!!!
Since when did you deserve free entertainment? Frankly, you make me sick. It'd be another case entirely if the xbox or the games weren't worth playing. But clearly they are, since you devote a large portion of your time "renting five games" and ripping them all. But now, faced with the thought of actually having to trade your work for other peoples work (in the time honored tradition of bartering through currency), you "hope that the xbox2 falls flat on its face"?
Seriously, pick one side or the other. Either don't play and support the xbox because you don't like it, microsoft, or the developers. But the minute you depend on it for YOUR entertainment, you need to pony up, it's as simple as that.
And I'm no xbox zealot, I'm not defending the xbox, but rather attacking your attitude. For the record, I enjoyed my PS2 far more than my xbox. The only two games I own for the xbox are Ninja Gaiden and NHL 2K5. Both of which have made the purchase of the console worth it for me.
Grow up. When it comes to personal entertainment, there are no "rights". You are not entitled to it, you make the decision on what to purchase, and no one else.
Why is this a surprise? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's Power PC? So? They had a Power PC NT kernel, for the CHRP motherboards, and most of the NT kernel is C and C++ and has to be portable at least to Alpha and Itanium, so building most of it for Power PC would be just a recompile. It's not like the software just vanished when the CHRP 'market' collapsed.
Hmmm... billg said it was impossible (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, this is just one more project branch to maintain. They now have Win2K, WinXP Home Edition, WinXP Pro, Win2003 server, WinCE and now another version for the XBox. For the server editions they need to support standard, enterprise and data center versions. And I think there is a version for the tablet PC, or is it just WinCE? No wonder MS wants cheaper code monkeys, keeping all the versions maintained and in synch has got to be a labor intensive nightmare.
Seems a little obvious... (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows 9X compatibility wasn't a requirement so could be ignored, CE was optimised for lower power CPUs and had been a less than a stellar success in the Dreamcast, whilst the NT/2000 codebase was optimised for higher end processors x86/PPC/MIPS/Alpha. It would seem that the choice was obvious. I dare say that MS stripped it down so that it's just the kernel of 2000 with thin wrappers of DirectX on top of the drivers together with a the minimum requirements of Win32 to keep DirectX and OpenGL running.
If we jump ahead to now, it seems obvious that MS would carry on using the same platform - just this time using the PPC branch of 2000, build new drivers and probably add more Win32 stuff to support the XNA architecture. If anything it seems unthinkable that they would use anything but an NT kernel.
I would be more interested to know if Win360 (I know this is Slashdot and Microsoft is only interesting when it's monopolising the cure for cancer etc - but just allow me to wonder a moment!) supports
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:My question is. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, many "entertainment" technologies are almost entirely predicated on making copies - iPod, vcr, dvd writer, high speed DSL, etc.
And seriously, how many non-graphic artists do you know that own a legit version of Photoshop? People just do duplicate software. It's not a lost sale becuase that person would never buy the product for $500+ anyway. But get it for free from a friend, no problem.
And what about mere loaner copies? I have lent people books so that they didn't have to get their own copies. I have done the same with CDs and DVDs and whatever else over time. There's lots of ways to avoid putting money into the system while still making use of the thing that the money was supposed to get you.
That's just the way things are. Everyone knows this. I just weep for your fragile grasp of economic realities
Re:My question is. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Though I'd like to know how you (or others) would feel if we replaced all occurrances of "Microsoft" and "game developers" in your post with "the RIAA" and "musicians," respectively.
Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
WHAT A SHOCK!
redundant yes but the whole article is stupid in this regard - I didn't even know we were having wiiild speculations into what os it has - like it would never matter to the end user who never sees it.
Re:PowerPC vs Intel (Score:3, Insightful)
An even better question is "If the XBox 360 runs on a powerPC-like CPU, will MSFT start selling W2K for the G5?" that'd be a fine how-do-you-do. "Dear Steve, we're releasing a fully compatible 'Windows 2k5 for OS X'. It's a trick we learned from IBM. gg.--Love, Bill"
Re:My question is. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Ask me when MS isn't a distant second in the video game market.
Despite popular belief, MS can't just go make a monopoly. They actually need a little help from their customers. I realize this is a tough pill to swallow, but it's true. I'm surprised these little cracks fly around even though IIS isn't king, Sony and Palm are still around, and Logitech is still producing mice and keyboards.
Re:DUH. (Score:4, Insightful)
> Windows has the HAL that can absorb hardware differences, so there's no room for Linux and the
> like.
When the Mac came out in '84, M$ told the DOS heads that using their keyboard macros was so much faster than using a mouse that using the mouse and gui will never make it into mainstream business. They published statistics to prove it. Then Windows came out, and M$ told them how great the mouse and gui was, and they switched over in droves, their past biases completely removed from their memory banks.
When the web started taking off in the early '90s, M$ told the faithful that the web was a waste of time. It was run by Universities and will never be applicable to the modern business world. Hell, you had to jump through hoops to even get windows running TCP/IP back then. Then M$ came out with IE, and told everyone that it is the business app of the future. All of the windows heads developed mass amnesia, and told us all how M$ runs the internet.
History says that if M$ changed their stance and started pushing Linux, embrased and extended into proprietary hell, of course, then all the current Linux haters will tell you how great M$ Linux is, and forget they ever bashed it.
M$s main power is brainwashing. They coddle the non-free-thinking masses and give them a sense of community in their M$ness. They will blindly follow whatever Redmond tells them, as long as they have Linux and Apple or whoever to despise. Hated is the easiest way to bind any community.
jfs
Re:My question is. . . (Score:1, Insightful)
> have to get their own copies.
But then you couldn't read it while they were. Passing around PShop is more along the lines of Xeroxing a book at work...
> There's lots of ways to avoid putting money into
> the system while still making use of the thing
> that the money was supposed to get you.
Yes, there are a lot of ways to steal music and software, if that's what you're into.
> I just weep for your fragile grasp of economic
> realities
Hey, however you want to rationalize theft, go for it.
Re:My question is. . . (Score:1, Insightful)
And saying "you're going to have to go online to play most game" is not the same as saying "it is going to be a highly restrictive entertainment environment wherein people are going to learn that information about them being collected is just fine and normal".
Please read your own original comment carefully before getting pissed off that someone didn't understand you.
Re:My question is. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
MS has had competitors in the past. Big, strong ones with better products or more recognition or a foot already in the door. But by moving slowly along the line in their own way, they somehow manage to dominate. Xbox was just the first step there, if they're successful. I'm hoping they're not, because they tend to depend upon market dominance accompanied by strong frontmen when they get to where they want to be. (which is an incredibly intelligent strategem - people love these things for some reason) But it's completely possible they will rule the living room like they rule the desktop in ten years....
Re:PowerPC vs Intel (Score:2, Insightful)
this is perhaps the stupidest thing I've seen moderated insightful in several months. First, you clearly meant Windows 2k5 for PPC64 (aka G5). Secondly, Apple could hardly care as long as you purchased a g5 to run it. Hell, Apple sells Microsoft products in the Apple store right now (Office, VPC + Windows). Why would they care that you run Windows once they've sold you the hardware? Terrasoft, the makers of yellow dog linux, are authorized resellers of Apple hardware and MS would certainly be authorized too.
Apple is a HARDWARE company that also happens to make much better software than your run-of-the-mill monopoly. They don't give a damn what you do with it after you've paid them.
ps This rant is directed at the mods- as your comment would sit very well at +3 funny (maybe +4 on a slow day)
You don't understand the word monopoly. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You don't understand the word monopoly either (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact I do. (Score:2, Insightful)
And you certainly could say that about sony, if they had sold the playstation or ps2 for a loss, but they didn't
Re:My question is. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you have any idea how much it takes to make an operating system these days?
500 million is TYPICAL. To even suggest someone could do it for less is LUNACY!!
Operating systems take upwards of 500 people to make. This isnt the old days where you could just throw together some OS in your garage and get other people around the world to contribute. What do you expect people to contribute to an Operating Sytem for FREE??
Re:What OS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Disinformation (Score:2, Insightful)
it will take them a while to circumvent future xbox live problems. but they will beat it in time. that is assured. as soon as MS releases new patches into the games there will be a whole community devoted to re-releasing via net some new code to allow them to play their games again.
your ancillary mod theory is out too in my opinion. MS has never been much into the hardware aspect of what they do. peripherals is another story. but i highly doubt MS would want to open that can of worms. they would never officially support it. that would mean they would have to work extra hardware support into their embedded OS. a console "works" because it has one known set of hardware. homogeneity is why consoles exist and havent been eaten up by the pc. all games have to just be able to play nice with that one set of hardware. if it works on one, it should work on the next. if hardware upgrades of that nature caught on it would be a console makers nightmare. not to mention all the kiddies [and broke parents] that would be mad first thing xmas morning to find out that halo 4 needs a new video card upgrade for their xbox.
so the question is... why would anyone want to mod the xbox in the first place since MS is now providing us with the functionality that we wanted in the first place. the answer is simple. because we can! if they say we cant do x, y, or z... we find a way to prove them wrong. its human [read: hacker] nature. some people just want the ability to run linux on this three processor system that should be faster than their current desktops. some people may want to change the layout/colors of their GUI [in their OWN way, not just using the choices MS presents us]. the faceplate idea is okay, but what about changing the sides? i want a completely black console... and they better sell blank faceplates.
some people may use future mods for warez. which of course is very illegal. i dont see that community going away anytime soon. but, on the legal loophole side of things where most modders live, some people may just want to play with their friends online during the weekdays without paying extra for it. seems legal enough to me since paying for a live subscription is just to cover the maintenance of the live servers. if you werent forced to use the live servers to play, you shouldnt have to pay. i mean if i had a lan party and no subscription to xbox live, would i have to wait until the weekend to play? no [well, i hope not], because im not using MS servers. well, what if i want to host a LAN party via internet tunnelling? hmmm...
the modding community isnt going anywhere, and MS should be grateful for it [some of it anyways] it drives alot of sales. as an enduser i will buy the console that has the most value, the most options and the best games. many mods have made the original xbox a decent value. i dont think the console makers should be as heavy handed as they have been, but they are just trying to protect the bottom dollar; i cant blame them from a business standpoint.
Re:My question is. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Care to elaborate on that? Because I can't see the connection.
What makes it easy or hard for partners to port to their platform is the OS itself, and the quality of the SDK and tools provided by MS. Microsoft has long been very good at giving devs what they want.
The original Xbox required developers to get their copy signed off by MS. I see absolutely no reason why they can't add security without adding to that inconvenience.
Re:My question is. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
In the 80's, yes. I don't believe they do so today. First off, at the speed hardware is changing it's not worth the effort to microoptimize like that.
Not to mention the fact that the thing does have an API and an OS. Those things were nonexistant before, which encouraged that kind of stuff.
Secondly, the platform isn't static. Revisions to the OS and hardware occur. Using undocumented stuff is putting yourself at great risk of having your code break.
But the more they tighten the secuirity model, the more strictly compliant the ported code will need to be.
IIRC, the only security holes found so far in the original X-box which didn't require a modchip were buffer overrun failures. Not due to using 'undocumented features' of any sort, but rather a simple programming error.
Microsoft could easily fix that by having a nonexecutable stack, for instance. That would not put any additional requirements whatsoever on the programmers.
I don't buy it. Could you give a real example of a program using an undocumented feature, and also explain how it constituted a security problem?
Take the blinders off. (Score:4, Insightful)
Being too fucking dense to read what you are replying to is bad enough, but being so arrogant as to pretend you are being ignored because you aren't participating in group think is beyond rediculous. Wake up, nobody wants to try to converse with someone who will only ignore what they say and continue arguing with straw men and red herrings.
You decided based on your own twisted view of the world that I am some anti-MS crusader. This is obvious from you complaining about "people like me" using a dollar sign in MS, despite me not doing that, and telling me to complain about Sony, when Sony isn't doing what MS is.
And just so you know, I hate Sony. They have a hidden control panel in their monitors (at least some models) that you can only access using a special cable and special software, which of course only sony authorized repair centers can get. So if there is a power surge and your monitors contrast gets set WAY too high (above what you can even set with the user control panel) then you have to pay $250 for some overpaid fuckstick to plug in a cable and press "reset to factory settings" on this gay software. While I am not a huge fan of MS, because of this monitor scam I outright despise Sony.
But that doesn't change the fact that MS is a convicted monopolist using money from a monopoly that has held PC technology back for years to push their way into a new market with a product that loses money. Why would you expect everyone to be complaining about Sony when they aren't doing this, and MS is?