Developers Want Fatter Paychecks 111
CodeBuster writes "The programmers, artists, and other creative professions that work in the games industry have taken a rather dim view on paying royalties to Hollywood voice-over actors, according to the article 'Coders Want Fatter Paychecks Too' written by Wired News. From the article: 'The video-game industry's geek workforce has something to say to Hollywood actors: Get in line for your share of the industry's profits.'"
Latest News (Score:5, Funny)
I don't see a story here.
On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, if you're unsatisfied with getting $2200 a year for doing eight hours of voice-over work in a year, maybe you need another job. Take some other acting gigs, drive a truck for UPS, learn a trade. Hell, flip burgers if you're that hard up for cash.
Or, better yet, learn to program, learn to work on sound effects, learn to do 3-D art, learn to do game level design. Then get a real 60-hour-a-week job in the games industry and see how the other half lives. Maybe then you'll realize you should be asking the programmers, artists, etc. to go on strike.
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:2)
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:1)
Funny, that's exactly what most actors do. They don't call it being a "struggling actor" for nothing.
As for your advice to, "take some other acting gigs" -- you really don't understand how hollywood works do you?
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:2)
Then what's the problem? They can still make their living wage doing grunt work for 30 to 60 hours a week, just like the rest of us. Why should the games industry be forced to subsidize voice actors just because video/computer game voiceover opportunities are scarce?
In fact, if there's a glut of voice actors compared to the jobs available, then they should be getting paid less, not more. The union is n
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:1)
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:2)
Sorry, your argument is severely flawed.
Unionized voice actors can do a lot to help or hinder a game. If you take into account the games that are big-budget, many of them are based on Hollywood movies that are released around the same time, ie Spiderman, the Matrix, Harry Potter, X-Men, Star Wars, etc. If they can't hire the origin
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:1)
On the voice-acting topic, though, I think you're basing too much on the big licensed games. Actors who have their voice AND likeness used (Tobey Maguire in the Spider-Man videogame, for example) are already being paid a LOT more for their services - it wouldn't surprise me if they often DO get royalties based on sales. I would also agree that in those types of l
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:2)
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:2)
In nearly every case in today's United States, yes, unions only serve as a middleman which leeches money from both the worker and the employer. This occurs because after a union succeeds in insulating the worker from predatory employment practices, it then continues to exist in full force because it is run by career union officers whose entire income is derived from the success of the union. The union *should*
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:2)
Re:On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:1)
Do you really think that actors only have to do one hour's work for that $275? How about the tens of auditions that actors go to, and fail to get, on their own time and money, just to get that one job? And what about preparation time?
After you take all t
Re:Creative people are hard to find, coders are no (Score:3, Insightful)
If they were such great voice actors, they could get a gig in any number of animated movies or shows. The fact that they aren't and have settled for such "meager" paychecks means that they are at the bottom of th
Re:Creative people are hard to find, coders are no (Score:2)
Skilled developers who can code a game into something FUN are.
You don't get that from offshoring to India.
What are they asking for, then? (Score:3, Interesting)
If it were the second one, I think it would be a great idea. If a game is fun and sells well, the coders get an extra bit of green to take home.
If it's the first one, well then that's OK too. I hope to break into the game industry once I'm done with college, and the more game programmers earn once I reach that point, the better (for me, anyway..)
Re:What are they asking for, then? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What are they asking for, then? (Score:1)
Re:What are they asking for, then? (Score:2)
An even worse fate...I'd wish working at EA on no one, not even the management positions b/c even though they might make more money, who wants to deal with all the guilt of screwing over both your employees and your customers? There are many things much more important than money, like self respect for example.
Re:What are they asking for, then? (Score:1)
Re:What are they asking for, then? (Score:1)
They Deserve It! (Score:5, Interesting)
That's another thing: people skills. If you can't work well in a team, then forget game development. You have to be in constant communication with the artists and other programmers if you want the game to come together at all.
I really enjoyed programming for games. But when we had to turn in our game...the game wasn't working the way I wanted it too, and I really stressed out. I got sick the next day...don't know if it's entirely due to the stress but I'm sure it had to do something with it.
After taking that class, I realized that alot of these developers are incredibly smart and creative. It's easy to judge games when you're just playing them. But after taking that cass, I learned to appreciate what these guys can do.
Re:They Deserve It! (Score:1)
So someone who works his/her ass off their entire life to get an engineering degree doesn't DESERVE more money/recognition than some dumb,hot blonde that gives a few blow-jobs to the right people? What kind of fucked up, fascist world do you want us living in anyways? I seriously hope you're being sarcastic.
Everyone wants to design games. Game designers are everywhere. How "hard" it is has no meaning in the equation
Re:They Deserve It! (Score:2, Interesting)
You don't deserve more money just because something is harder than something else. You also don't deserve money just because you think what you do has a greater moral or societal value.
Your job is part of the capitalist system and in that system you are not paid on a scale of ethics, morality, decency or difficulty. You are paid on a scale of supply and demand. Just like your company earns more money if they provide a better product that is in high demand - you are pai
Re:They Deserve It! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:They Deserve It! (Score:4, Insightful)
How the world is and how the world should be are two very different things. People like you only take the current shit in hopes that one day you'll be the one doing the shitting. Caring about your fellow human beings is not a bad thing...
Phatter lewt, lol! (Score:2, Funny)
I want phatter lewt!
Re:Phatter lewt, lol! (Score:2)
Startup Startup Startup (Score:5, Interesting)
Outside of starting a company, forming a union is the only other alternative. But even with massive overseas outsourcing and a general erosion of wages in the IT industry (at least at the coding level), unionization simply has not been embraced in the tech fields.
Oh, and be rich to start with, that helps. (Score:2)
Increasingly, this just isn't an option.
Further, most folks coming from "working" backgrounds have seen the effects of unions on industries like the Automotive industry. The companies simply move production to another country, unions be damned.
The problems in the game industry would be far better addressed through the creation and use of common assets, such as
Seumas is wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Hollywood is has finally woken up and realized that the videogame industry is almost as big as them, and will surpass them very soon and they want to apply their flawed, old, outdated, business model to the game industry and it simply won't stick.
So the fuck what if we can't use Wil Wheaton's awesome voice over talent anymore? There are a million and one more talents actors out there that would kill for any opportunity to make a buck and get noticed.
Patrick Stewart is in the new morrowind game, and that's great, but there are a lot of talented actors out there from the stage and screen who could have filled the same shoes. I am not knocking voice over actors; they truly have talent, but they should not be compensated more than the poor bastards working 60 hour weeks to make the game in the first place.
In five years I can only assume that this arguement will be moot as games by then will have budgets on the line with movies anyway.
Re:Seumas is wrong (Score:1)
Don't get me wrong, games that rely heavily on cinemas can be enhanced by good voice acting, but it seriously has nothing to do
Re:Seumas is wrong (Score:2)
When you ignore DVD and Television, and judge size only by dollars.
I am not knocking voice over actors; they truly have talent, but they should not be compensated more than the poor bastards working 60 hour weeks to make the game in the first place.
Go read TFA. Voice actors want standard voice-actor industry rates--and coders want the same residual piece of the pie.
Game developers: Form a union already (Score:4, Insightful)
If it weren't for this 'we're better than workers who have to form a union' attitude amongst programmers and other technical workers, there'd already be a union for people in the game industry, and this sort of problem would have already been resolved.
Right now programmers and artists are being exploited in industry. They are working severe overtime without compensation. It is structual, in the sense that those responsible for managing and renumerating these employees know and plan for this unpaid overtime. Any copyright on created art or code is transfered without any particular compensation, for use of the company in perpetuity. People are literally being worked sick, and most receive a relative pittance in return, when compared with the profits of publishers.
Very occasionally there may be a royalty component offered to employees, but this is often not paid, or comes after the publisher skims off the top and is horribly meagre.
These people can be abused so easily because there is pride involved. People take pride in their work: they want to be associated with something with quality, that people will enjoy. There is also the belief that working for in the industry is an intrinsically cool thing to do. Employers and publishers then turn around and exploit that pride and belief.
What is the shame in forming a union? Do you think people started unions because it might be a fun lark on weekends? The current situation will remain until there is a force present to reverse it. And that force isn't about to come from the Tooth Fairy.
Re:Game developers: Form a union already (Score:2)
Re:Game developers: Form a union already (Score:2)
Over the years unions have earned a reputation for corruption by being corrupt. Unions insist on pay based only on years of service. Never mind that old Joe never was a good programmer, he has been around longer than me so he gets more. In fact Joe can goof off all day, the union won't allow him to be fired. (they will, but it is very difficult)
There are labor laws in place that did not exist back when unions started. Conditions are bad in many game development jobs, but they are because workers d
Ironic (Score:2)
You got your way as a result of collective action. You already have a de facto union. Thats all trades unionism is. Lucky you, but some people aren't in that position. Some companies run things to deliberately isolate and divide employees so that situation could never happen (c.f. Walmart). The problem arises when the boss hints he's looking to "free up" a dozen or so positions. All it take
Re:Game developers: Form a union already (Score:2)
Re:Game developers: Form a union already (Score:2)
The biggest problem with overtime is that it doesn't yield the benefits that employers think it will. Creative employees simply can not work much more than forty hours per week and actually get more done. At least not more quality work. You can do a lot more than usual during a crunch, but you can't already be worn down, and afterwards, you have to recover your stamina with some actual rest.
A union i
Re:Game developers: Form a union already (Score:2, Insightful)
As long as you care to ignore the other problems the union would cause.
Right now programmers and artists are being exploited in industry.
Boohoo. I picture a sign with a starving programmer on it, "Can you spare 10 cents a day to adopt this hungry game developer?"
They are working severe overtime without compensation.
Quit and get a new job.
Any copyright on created art or code is tr
The three job classes... (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod parent up (Score:2)
An important disadvantage, however, is that you have to be your own marketing department all of the time. This is not easy for everybody, and for me this is the main reason I have not jumped ship yet.
In other news . . . (Score:2)
Fire burns.
and everyone, everywhere, wants more money.
Simple solution (Score:2)
And pay (out of the gross) your most creative people to do your accounting.
Get Out While You Can (Score:3, Insightful)
Complaining that you want more money is only going to make the slide to outsourcing that much faster. You chose to work in this industry, you knew all the bullshit that game companies do to their employees. The kind of ridiculous hours for comparatively crap pay that you would be forced to do. You knew all of it and you signed on the dotted line because you were blinded by the fantasy of making games being the coolest thing ever. Why in the world should I feel sympathy for you?
Economics (Score:2)
Its simply supply and demand. There is way to much supply but the rate charged for the service limits the demand.
This is union protectionism. The union wont adapt to market forces so instead they want to extrot more money for the companies that can still afford them.
Unions are good up to a point. That point doesnt include bullying non-union voice actors into a union or ext
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Are skilled people important? Yes. But skilled and creative are not the same thing. And to sugges
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
In many cases, this is exactly the reason why software sucks. Because management refuses to listen even IF the developers know what they are talking about. Which leaves the developers with exactly two options:
1) Find another job
2) Knuckle under and implement the stupid decisions from above
Of course, if this goes on for long enough, the company may find itself outmaneuve
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Really? The reason why working standards are so low in the games industry is because developers are replaceable. Want to spend more time with your family? There's the door. We have 4 wide-eyed grads waiting outside to take your job. Everyone is replaceble.
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Really? The reason why working standards are so low in the games industry is because developers are replaceable. Want to spend more time with your family? There's the door. We have 4 wide-eyed grads waiting outside to take your job. Everyone is replaceble.
But that's exactly the point the previous poster was making. If the developer choosing the door produces a high level of quality code, then it doesn't matter how many grads there are waiting in the line - the end-product will suffer for it.
Of course,
Re:So what? (Score:2)
The idea of a single indespensible uber-coder is a myth. (Conviently, everyone thinks of themselves as that uber-coder.) It always has been, and it always will be.
Re:So what? (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Oh, shut the duck up.
Re:So what? (Score:2)
D
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
The REAL performers in games are the ones built by the Programmers and the game designers... not the actors.
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
I would prefer an off-the-street actor.
Why?
Because when I am in a game, I don't want to be distracted by such things as "Hey, that sounds like Christopher Walken!".
That's true to some extent even in movies.
For example, when I first saw Patrick Stewart in X-Men, I thought "Captain Picard", and it took me out of the movie.
(Fortunately, Patrick Stew
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Actually, the animators and mocap actors are making the performance. The voice talent brings the characters to life. Don't believe me? Play GTA3 then play either Vice City or San Andreas. Tommy Vercetti didn't have a voice in GTA3. When they gave him one in Vice City, it made the game more interesting. It was taken to an even greater extent in San Andreas. (let's not forget the sound tracks
Re:So what? (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't believe me?
Monkey Island had no voice actors.
Super Mario Brothers had no voice actors.
ICO had no voice actors.
Origin did voice work in house with the regular staff. When Wing Commander 4 was done with union work (because the union came in and shut production down until it became a union job) All the inhouse staff that did voicework received cease and desist notices that they were forbidden from doing future voice work until they joined the union.
But I suppose all those games were designed and built by off the shelf coders that do kewl and elite IMAP modules and artists who learned photoshop in their mom's basement.
I'm not denying voice actors fair compensation for game work.. BUT GET IN FRIGGIN' LINE!
Re:So what? (Score:2)
I don't know, either, since I never suggested anything ill about them.
Re:So what? (Score:2)
I am legitemately curious about reading more on this certain event, as I'd never heard of it before. Googling for it didn't work...Do you possibly have a link or a place I can Google (better than "wing commander actor un
Probably not... (Score:2)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
A real voice actor [harrisonline.com] would like to take issue with your comment.
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Most games don't hire talented voice actors. They hire crappy, uninspired voice actors and you end up with cardboard-quality videogames.
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0921942/ [imdb.com]
You evidently didn't listen to the interview. His point is that people like Jim Carrey, Vin Diesel, and Elijah Wood *are* really poor voice actors, only hired for their name recognition.
Not every brand-name screen actor does crappy work at voice acting, mind you - Billy Crystal and Eddie Murphy were cited by West in the interview as having real talent. But by and large, quality work isn't the concern when Hollywood hires voice ac
Re:So what? (Score:1)
The fact of the matter is this - people need to stop bitching about what the make. I work in the tech industry and I'm so fucking tired of hearing a bunch of
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Re:So what? (Score:2)
Well, apparently those guys are making much better money than those of us who leave our porches at home attached to the house, so maybe we aren't as bright as we think ourselves to be.
Re:Top devs, incorporate for better rates (Score:2, Insightful)
Are Will Right and Peter Moulineaux the ones doing most of the coding in their games? I seriously doubt it. They're leading it. They're designing it. They're watching it hawkishly every step of the way. But some code-monkey is putting code-to-
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Video games do not need voice actors, and most are better without them.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Actors are replacable. (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure there are not 10 Jim Careys, but there are millions of people who have moved to Hollywood over the years looking for their break, only to discover talent is not enough. Most of them have moved back home broke a few years latter. Of course there are many millions more who only thought they had talent, who have moved away too.
Once in a while someone makes it. However there is enough compitition that until you are big enough that they write scripts with you in mind, odds are against you getting int
Re:So what? (Score:3, Funny)
Thank buggery for that!
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Performers are very, very replaceable. In fact they often can be replaced by mere mortals of other professions.
Examples:
Victoria voiceover in Thief 2.
Videos for C&C.
Hamalaya (98% of "actors" there vere simply tibetian people).
Pi.
The list could go on forever.
The most famous acting in a PC game. (Score:1)