What Xbox Games Will Be Backwards Compatible? 164
alvinrod writes "IGN has whipped up a nice article about how and which Xbox games will be compatible with the Xbox 360. The article explains that Microsoft is using emulation to play old Xbox games rather than including the chipset from the original Xbox. From the article: 'Xbox 360 compatible games are going to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Microsoft's engineer's are, right now, figuring out which games are compatible, and which are less than compatible. Thus, at the 360 launch, only a few games, let's speculate that number is somewhere between five and 20, will be backward compatible.'"
Good news! (Score:1, Insightful)
It's not even backwards compatible (Score:2)
This is not backwards compatible whatsoever in my mind, it's milking gamers for extra money for no reason other than to fill microsoft's pockets
Ready? Set. Bash! (Score:2)
Re:Ready? Set. Bash! (Score:5, Insightful)
I picked up an ad for the 360 from a local store (Hastings). The ad promoted the system's backwards compatibility with older, Xbox games. If only a handful of games are actually backwards compatible, that's verging on false advertising.
Of course, it's only Microsoft's "fault" if they actually advertise it as such or suggest that retailers do.
Anyway, I'd even be happy with 90% compatibility, but if the blurb is even halfway correct (and who the hell knows these days) then claiming that the device is backwards compatible is pretty much a lie.
Re:Ready? Set. Bash! (Score:2)
HOld up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:HOld up... (Score:1)
And Microsoft is full of engineers.
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
As for the emulation thing, wouldn't that be sort of similar to porting a game from PS2 to Xbox? I mean, they have the native Xbox code. Can't they just set up a translation layer a la DirectX to interpret and make it work?
Maybe they're just lazy. We can see how long it took them to get 64-bit support out when they started before the processors were available to consumers....
Re:HOld up... (Score:1)
Re:HOld up... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, they are a bit glitchy, but they dont know as much about the internals of the Xbox as MS does, as well as MS has the time and dedication to make such an emulator work.
Emulating the 733Mhz Xbox on a far-superior triple-core 3.2Ghz PPC would be child's play.
Re:HOld up... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:HOld up... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
Based on the transition from 68k to PPC, I'd say you're very wrong. I believe Apple can pull this off because they've already done the same thing once before (twice, if you count Mac OS 9 -> Mac OS X).
My first Mac was a 68k machine, my second a PPC machine. All of my applications continued to run. The only ones th
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
From old Apple to Intel-Apple, it's PPC on i386 architecture.
I'd be inclined to think things might be easier to translate one direction than the other, if Microsoft didn't already have available the Virtual PC software to run Windows XP on PPC based Macs (as found in some versions of Office:Mac)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, emulating x86 on PPC is probably far easier than the reverse. There are relatively few features that a Pentium III varient would have that would be absent on the PPC (and as you said, Microsoft already has VirtualPC). Going in the opposite direction means you're always starved for general purpose registers, which means you have to store and load them from memory. This can kill performance quite rapidly.
Frankl
Re:HOld up... (Score:1)
Levels of Abstraction (Score:3, Informative)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
The first Intel Macs will include the Mini, almost certainly at $499 for a minimum configuration. The more expensive desktop Macs (the ones that will come in $3000 configurations, an order of magnitude larger) will be the last to make the transition, up to a year after the Intel Mac Mini comes out.
Moderate parent (-1,WRONG). Or perhaps Troll since it will be possible to spend that much, but most people will not.
Re:HOld up... (Score:2)
The problem seems to be the use of graphics primitives that are tailored to nVidia hardware that are hard to efficiently translate for ATI hardware.
That's what I got from the article, anyway. Having said that, it's a confused article - for instance:
First to Market (Score:2)
Re:First to Market (Score:2)
Being fair , The Xbox's best games are either available on Computer or other consoles . So far the Xbox 2 will does not have any titles which fall outside of this category i can see no reason to buy one.
This is one of the key problems i have noticed with the Xbox , IT has no great exclusives , well perhaps for a short time , but eventually they are ported now i not everything , but enough to make it a f
DON'T DO IT (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's say the consumer has old XBox game A. He loves to play A a lot. This guy buys an XBox 360; he heard it also plays original XBox titles. The fact that it only plays certain titles slips by him, and the marketing on the box is too slick to put enough emphasis on this fact. He tears open the box and tries to load his game. If he gets a message that says his game isn't supported, he'll scream and throw the new system out the window. If the game starts to load, and is playable (but only to a point, with lots of glitches/slowdowns/whathavyou), he'll get a serious bad impression of the 360. If the game loads but encounters a fatal error consistently during gameply, he'll scream even louder and throw the console through TWO windows.
Emulation sucks. When consumers get backwards compatibility, they expect 100%. That's what they've been getting so far. Partial compatibility will have buyers a little sore, and if Microsoft isn't VERY diplomatic about the gamer's experience, they might become downright angry, and lots of windows are going to get broken.
And just think; this ugly PR nightmare could all be solved by simply not attempting backwards compatibility. It's all or nothing, folks.
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:1)
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2)
Now, if you're after a less popular game (to use the example in the article, Panzer Dragoon Orta, an excellent rail-shoorter), you might run into problems-- in that case, check the list of
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:1)
I don't want to have two consoles there that I have to switch between, and I don't want to have to switch network cables back and forth to whichever console I want to play on.
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2)
An existing library of Xbox titles might help convince some of those people to buy an Xbox 360. After all, Microsoft does want to increase their market share with the next generation, don't they?
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:5, Informative)
Emulation doesn't suck; what about MAME [mame.net] and ZSNES [zsnes.com]? In fact, emulation is a great way to ensure near perfect ports of the games, as long as you have the processing power to do so. Moreover, if you have the spare processing power, you can use it to make the games nicer, such as the various stretching / smoothing routines available in ZSNES; your old games actually look better emulated.
The problem seems to come from the difficult to emulate GPU, not emulation itself. As such, it sounds like what Microsoft might be doing is some ad hoc driver system, where each game has a specific driver that handles the GPU calls in such a way as to work for a particular game. Either that or they are actually going to try and emulate the GPU instructions on a piecemeal basis, fixing the most common first, and then releasing version patches over XBox live while enabling games that are "friendly" (IE, emulate well, using the article's vernacular) under the successive versions.
This former does sound kind of flakey, but the latter sounds like a true emulator. Most emulators go through this kind of compatibility shakedown phase since certain instructions are used a lot, whereas other instructions are used much more rarely. The upside is that if they do this, it's possible it will eventually emulate all XBox games, possibly with some graphics enhancing options. I guess only time will tell how well their backwards compatibility really works out.
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:3, Interesting)
If done perfectly, emulation is very poweful and reliable. I'm merely worried that not enough time and energy can be spent before the shipment date of the 360 in order to build such a great emulator. Perhaps I underestimate Microsoft, but we all know how many years of development it took for programs like ZSNES to win the sort of compatibility it has.
Rather than saying emulation sucks, I should qualify tha
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2)
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2)
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2, Funny)
Don't worry about it too much. Microsoft's Windows is already broken enough as it is.
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:1)
Backward compatibility has never been flawless on consoles. The PS2 can't play every PS1 game. The GBA can't perfectly run every GB game, and the DS can't handle multiplayer GBA games.
We don't know how well the PS3 will handle b/c, but Sony claims that it'll play both PS2 and PS1 games. Given the PS2's support, it's almost certain that not every single game will be flawlessly supporte
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2)
I remember there being lots of issues with playing PS1 games with launch PS2's, but did they ever bother ironing those out, because when I still had my PS2, I didn't find a single PS1 game that didn't run on it.
And GB games not running on the GBA? Details please.
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:1)
Look, as much you want Microsoft to go bankrupt on the Xbox 360, wishing that every Xbox fanboy was dead isn't going to make that happen. Microsoft is still a very successful company, and like it or not, they still make reasonably rational business decisions. Why would they deliberately tick off over half of their
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:1)
Excuse me but, Shut Up!
If they pull off 40% compatability The library of games for the console increases by that number AT LAUNCH. Alot of Xbox360 owners are gonna be new to consoles, And their parents probably would appreciate some AAA budget titles. Microsoft could go so far as to repackage the few that work with "360 compatible" slip-covers/Stickers.
We do not ask Nintendo, Sony, an
Re:DON'T DO IT (Score:2)
Uhh, no he won't. Nobody is stupid enough to throw a new console out the window because it won't play an old game. The 360 won't be cheap.
And what person is going to buy a brand new 360, rip it out of the box, and run an old game on it? They'll want to play a 360 launch title.
Moderators modded you up, but I've no idea why because your argument is ludicrous.
Firmware (Score:2)
Re:Firmware (Score:5, Insightful)
The day a new game console requires a windows-update-like web site is the day I go back to playing my Atari 2600 exclusively.
Re:Firmware (Score:2)
Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
That game isn't a "game". It's my workout. My daily workout.
I don't want a 360 anymore....
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:1)
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:1)
Like the Xbox360 won't see at least 4 DDR games or clones in its first year.
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
DDR Ultramix was a great leap forward, it makes the DDR Extreme graphics which came out about the same time look terrible.
Ultramix 2 was even better, as they added new models and new special effects during dancing... much nicer view.
But, honestly, I have bought every single songpack for DDR Ultramix 1 & 2, so I have over 12
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
1) I bet DDR Ultramix gets ported quickly, since it's a non-demanding game. (It doesn't challenge the Xbox hardware in any way; even the 3D dancing characters are simplistic.)
2) The Xbox 360 will quickly get DDR, or other dance games, because they sell really well and are popular at parties.
3) Even if the above don't happen, you still own your existing Xbox, right? It's not like the Xbox 360 will magically make it disappear.
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
DDR is all about timing. If the timing gets off, your "perfect" step becomes an "almost" or even a "boo".
When my xbox was dying, I got constant freezes on the hard disk, making the next 5 seconds unplayable, which meant that about 10 steps were ranked as "boo" when in fact I couldn't press them at all.
Which ruins the score.
Also, there aren't 4 DDR's published per year on the XBOX. The only "clone" worth mentioning is In The Groove, which is ps2-only. There is 1 DDR published for th
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
Timing problems in other emulators you might be familiar with arise from the fact that early console hardware was tightly synced to scanlines and such.
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
Seriously... you can change the HDD and the DVD-ROM drive.
Then you can play Stepmania as well... and a whole shitload of new songs and DDR classics.
Plus you can use the excellent XBox Media Center... probably the best reason to own an XBox.
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:1)
Remember, this isn't an official line, it's what IGN has decided for themselves. You can choose to believe it, just don't assume it's actually how things are going to be.
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
While the new one is similar... they moved the back/start buttons... and where are ther black/white buttons? I liked that layout.
I even use the XBox controllers on my PC for some games.
Re:Ultramix 2 :( (Score:2)
They're on the shoulders, above the triggers.
Er... (Score:1)
Isn't that forwards compatible?
Re:Er... (Score:2)
you've got it backwards... you're thinking of the XBox180.
emulation (Score:1)
The article goes on to say that it's the proprietary routines in the GPU that will cause the problem, since those are found in the nvidia graphics chips. What I found interesting was Microsoft's own need for emulation, re-writing proprietary graphics routines much the same way that wine or other emulators need to in order to do their jobs. It
Re:emulation (Score:2)
That said, they bought the people that built the x86 -> PPC emulator Macs have been using for years now... you'd think they'd be able to do much better at this. If anything, this proves MS has offically "jumped the shark". dirty laundry like this shouldn't even be out in the open. emulation SHOULD be perfect given that MS OWNS the original XBox outri
Terrible Article (Score:2)
Another problem is that the authors of this article apparently doesn't understand console emu
Re:Terrible Article (Score:2)
Re:Terrible Article (Score:1)
I highly doubt wine has a hardware emulation layer, since a huge percentage of desktop Linux boxes are x86 or some compatible 64-bit architecture, and I doubt many servers would have the need to run windows software.
"It's VERY unlikely Microsoft could simply emulate every chip in the XBox1, the 360's CPU is simply not that powerful. It is impossible to emu
Re:Terrible Article (Score:3, Interesting)
"I'm fairly sure a 3+Ghz chip can emulate a 733Mhz one (celeron, not PIII, by the way), especially one with a smaller instruction set like x86("
Re:Terrible Article (Score:2)
Re:Terrible Article (Score:2)
I didn't think I needed to point out who Major Nelson is. Apparently I was wrong.
Re:Terrible Article (Score:2)
I'm not a big enough XBox fanboy to know who Major Nelson was either. However after looking it up [majornelson.com] your "confirmation" is still ridiculous. Someone who works on XBox Live grabbed a PR dude and the PR dude said "Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360". The blog was written to dispel rumors that you would have to "purchase a new 'version'" of your original games for them to work on the 360. It was also written 2.5 months ago when MS first announced backwards compatibility was
Try porting (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not port the titles? I don't know how large the games are, but you could have the developer port and recompile the game engine onto the XBox 360. Connect to XBox Live, insert your original game disc, have the XBox identify the disc for you and then download the new game binary (if available) onto its hard drive. Suddenly, the game runs perfectly. :-)
Re:Try porting (Score:3, Interesting)
This ain't gonna happen, for 2 main reasons:
Going down the recompile route is not feasible. Developers won't take the time to port gam
Re:Try porting (Score:2)
You're exactly right, which is what porting is. I guess recompiling implies that you haven't altered the source, which was a mistake in my wording. What I meant to say is first port the code and then compile the port.
moves (Score:1)
Re:moves (Score:1)
Re:moves (Score:1)
Nintendo's pretty safe right now because all they've announced are trivial things: retro games, WiFi support, GameCube compatibility. These things don't make or break the system. But we know nothing about the actual games. According to Nintendo execs, it'll be an improveme
Re:moves (Score:1)
And ideally, Nintendo would release Rev dev kits to third parties a year before launch but not announce any details until abo
Re:moves (Score:2)
So that leaves PS3 and Revolution, I might end up getting both.
Re:moves (Score:2)
Akin to Godwin's Law, I propose a further law: It states that
This comment is not exempt from this law.
Retrofitting Is Going To Be Expensive (Score:1, Insightful)
Paying engineers to retrofit existing games and the infrastructure to test and distrubute the patched executables is going to be fucking expensive.
Not only is the upfront cost of actually going through fixing most games in the Xbox library very expensive, but this isn't a situation like MAME where it is something you are downloading for free and can't de
It's a decision breaker (Score:1)
Emulation? (Score:2)
They could whip up a wrapper environment that would ease up the task of porting XBox games to the XBox360 to the point where some games only need a recompile, then ask game developers to recompile their games with it (and fix issues if encountered, or just give up if the game is too much bother to port).
Then, whenever an XBox game disc is inserted into an XBox360, the console would perform an online check to see if there
Re:Emulation? (Score:1)
Re:Emulation? (Score:2)
Re:Emulation? (Score:1)
Basically you'd save having to create a CPU emulator, but getting even a few studios to port games would be hard. On top of the actual rebuilding, they'd have to go through the certification process again, and all for maybe a handful of
Re:Emulation? (Score:2)
This guy had the same theory that I did. It's a good idea.
Either I don't understand or you don't understand, but one of us is having a misundersting. When the original poster said wrapper environment, we assume that all the necessary API layers are in place. Accessing these special "xbox specific" formats would be part of the API or something in the original game source. As for GPU emulation, this is also taken care of by the API wrapper, which will make sure xbox instructions get handled via 360 routi
Simple Answer (Score:1)
Re:Simple Answer (Score:2)
History Error (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony, of course, gained major kudos for the addition, showing up Nintendo, which never made its consoles backward compatible (though it reversed that trend with GBA).
Nintendo made the GameBoy Color backwards compatible long before the PS2.
Stupid article (Score:2)
Re:Stupid article (Score:2)
Holy crap... you're right!!! Century 9, chapter 56 [crystalinks.com]
The army near Houdan will pass Goussainville,
[The Battle of Houdan was in Operation Flashpoint and there was some speculation as to whether it would be ported to the Xbox. Goussainville... like Gaussian? Could he have predicted the technologies in the X-Box??]
And at "Maiotes" it will leave its mark:
[Someone's mark before literacy was usually an ''X'. Obvious reference to
Xbox muddle (Score:2)
Why not recompile? (Score:2)
Therefore, microsoft could release a new compiler and libraries that are source level compatible with the old XBOX XDK libraries.
Then, everyone would just recompile all the games to run on the 360 with the resulting exe files being distributed on XBOX 360 Live and downloaded automatically by the XBOX 360. (game data files would be pulled from the original game DVD just like they are now)
Ugh, what a read (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:1, Funny)
Pikmin, Luigi's Mansion, Eternal Darkness, Donky Konga, and Animal Crossing completely kicked ass on the NES. I can't wait until they finaly release the remake of Geist and Odama.
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:1)
Luigi's mansion = Mario
Donky Konga = (suprise!) Donky Kong
Animal Crossing = valid point
2 originals to the GPs 100. Great arguement.
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:1)
Luigi's Mansion is definitely not Mario, either. LM is more of a Ghostbusters-esque game than a traditional Mario platformer. Again: same characters, completely different game.
If you're really that interested in more than four original games, and not just trolling, look up Metroid Prime, Resident Evil 4, Viewtiful Joe
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:2)
Aw, come on. You're making this far too easy for me. Have you even played those games? I'd be surprised if you have. Luigi's Mansion has nothing in common with any Mario game except the cast. Luigi can't even jump. If anything, it's a cute version of Resident Evil minus the weird control.
Donkey Konga, again, has nothing in common with any other Donkey Kong game except the monkeys. It's an entirely different game! It's a freaking bongo music game
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:2)
They're creating new franchises, too, but even so: How is using your franchises for new games a problem? Fact is: People would have bought less copies of Donkey Konga if it had used a new franchise but otherwise been the same game.
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:2)
I own a GC myself. There are some amazing games on the system (Wind Waker, Eternal Darkness, Resident Evil 4, Pikmin, Metroid Prime, Tales of Symphonia). But I always find myself not even touching the system for six months at a time, because I'm waiting for the next game that interests me to be released.
Wheras with my PS2, there's always a new game every month or so that is worth playing, just because of the sheer amount of games that are being pu
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:4, Interesting)
First of all, the sequel argument. You say you have 100 original PS2 masterpieces, right? A quick glance at any top-rated PS2 games list reveals dozens of sequels. Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto, Gran Turismo, Tony Hawk, Burnout, Devil May Cry, SSX, Soul Calibur, Madden, Ratchet & Clank, Prince of Persia, Tekken, Final Fantasy... I could literally go on for pages. Does that make them bad games? Of course not. For example, Final Fantasy X is drastically different from the original Final Fantasy. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is a completely different (yet equally great) game compared to its ancestor. The same applies to Nintendo. Sure, Zelda and Mario have been around for around twenty years, but each iteration of those franchises is almost always unique. Zelda: Twilight Princess has very little relation to the original Zelda, apart from the main character and gameplay style. Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat resembles the 1981 classic only in its name. The game is a completely different experience.
Online: You're right. It's kind of a shame that the GameCube wasn't taken fully online, though one look at the Xbox division's finances will give you the primary reason. The console that's marketed as the ultimate online experience has only about 10% of its userbase playing online, all while Microsoft is losing millions of dollars supporting it. Sony also supports networked games, but from what I've seen and played, it's much less refined, and ultimately a less rewarding experience than Xbox Live. Solutions? Most GameCube owners I know use their consoles primarily for local multiplayer and single player games, opting to use computers for online games, where the concept has been far more supported than on any console.
The controller? Everyone has their own opinion, but at the time of its release, the GameCube was widely considered to have the most ergonomic controller of all three next-gen systems. This opinion may have changed once Microsoft released the Controller S, but the controller is still far from "crap". I have semi-large hands, and I've never had a problem with its size. Its button placement is unique, and superior for certain game styles. The controller was designed to make it easy to press multiple buttons with one thumb, and many games support the feature nicely. Unfortunately, a lot of developers have lazily ported games from the PS2 and Xbox without altering the control setup to support the design. As for your "10 year old son" comment, it was immature and unnecessary for an "intelligent" post, and the "fanboi" and "holy war" comments probably won't help avoid flames either.
Now, the "sexual activity standpoint", or feminine appeal department. I know several GameCube owners with girlfriends or wives, and many of them say that their significant others enjoy playing games like Animal Crossing and Mario Kart rather than traditional, violent games. Nintendo has always striven to produce games that appeal to everyone, and females are no exception to that. I hear that the recent DS title Nintendogs has had unprecedented success with Japanese women.
I also can't help but question your credibility when you claim that your wife married you for your PS2, not to mention the fact that you have both a "super hot wife", a 10 year old son, and a "super hot girlfriend". But whatever. I guarantee you that sexual activity is not the primary selling point for the majority of console owners, though.
Really, is it that hard to understand that people enjoy different types of games? Personally, I would never spend $50 on a Madden game every year, but I know that many people do. It doesn't take a whole lot of explanation. People like it, just like people like Nintendo games. Apparently the press does too, because the GameCube has been home to many of the top-ranked games of this generation. Maybe you don't see the appeal of the GC, but it doesn't take much thinking to see how someone else might.
Oh, and just for the record, this entire thread is completely off-topic.
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:2)
I feel kind of weird writing an answer to this because parent is probably a Nintendo fanboy making fun of Sony fanboys, but I want to address this one point anyway since it comes up quite often.
I have both a PS2 and a Cube, and my bro has an Xbox (currently collecting dust since he's constantly playing Mario Golf on the Cube). Of all
Re:It's about time someone said it (Score:2)
Re:The reason to be an early adopter (Score:2)
Re:On a side note... (Score:2)