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Portables (Games) Businesses Nintendo Sony

Sony Describes DS As Gimmick 453

1up.com has news, via MCVUK, that PSP VP of Studios Phil Harrison has classified Nintendo's entry into the handheld market as 'irrelevant'. From the article: "The idea of a handheld rivalry with Nintendo is an irrelevance...Those formats don't appear in our planning. It's not a fair comparison; not fair on them, I should stress. That sounds arrogant, maybe, but it's the truth." 1up.com's commentary is well seen. From their piece: "Whether or not you fully agree, Nintendo DS can come off as gimmicky, but Sony's commentary is fairly strange." Read on for my own short commentary.
I know that, for the most part, comments like Harrisons are just the marketing version of "my processor is faster than yours" but I'm honestly surprised at the level of arrogance displayed there. Since the PSP's launch, Slashdot Games has posted article after article with titles like PSP Reception Lukewarm in U.S., PSP Not A Sellout Hit, What's Up With The PSP?, and most recently PSP Usage Lower Than Expected. This last article is especially disheartening for Sony execs because those numbers come from Japan, a nation that has traditionally been Sony's bread basket. If it's not doing well here, and it's not doing well there...do they really think that many Europeans are going to buy it when it launches there next week?
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Sony Describes DS As Gimmick

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  • by Rirath.com ( 807148 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:42PM (#13412602)
    People don't always buy the superior product over a more popular, but lesser one.

    See, for example, the continued success of The Sims and it's many, many expansions over far better games.
  • by springbox ( 853816 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:43PM (#13412607)
    Sorry to point out the obvious but isn't Sony one of Nintendo's competitors in the handheld market? Company A saying bad things to discredit company B? Unheard of!
  • 'entry' (Score:2, Insightful)

    by EddieBurkett ( 614927 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:43PM (#13412609)
    Erm... the DS is Nintendo's "entry" into the handheld market??? I've got a 15 year old gameboy that says otherwise. (Hell, didn't the old Game & Watches even precede that?)
  • PSP is great (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Agret ( 752467 ) <alias.zero2097@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:43PM (#13412610) Homepage Journal
    the price tag is not
  • by SeaFox ( 739806 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:46PM (#13412628)
    The Nintendo DS is gimmicky. Double screens is helpful in some games, but for most people it's as awkward as the three pronged controller on N64.

    And Sony's comments are arrogant. It's the games that ultimately decide which platform is better, and having a bigger screen is no good if you have nothing special to show on it. Of course, I expect nothing less than this sort of statement from Sony. They still seem to think the Walkman glory is with them and continue to display Not-Invented-Here syndrome.
  • by MindPrison ( 864299 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:47PM (#13412631) Journal
    Gimmick or not... ...a new game-console relies almost entirely on the number of hot titles for the gamers to enjoy. Sure...the PSP is a great looking handheld gaming device, lot's of cool features and a solid backing by a company that already rocked our world with the first "worthy" proprietary 3d chip (Playstation the original) back some years ago. When it comes to gaming pleasure, I'd belive the Nintendo DS would do really well too because of the touch screen...just look at that new "pet" game where you have a live "3d" dog you can "touch" and play with that have been taking Japan by storm, now that's innovative but It might be a tad bit late...because Nintendo took a LONG time to release cool games for it's new baby. And I think PSP will stand a lot stronger in that area, better hardware too. But the point remains....it's all about the games.
  • by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:47PM (#13412635)
    ...but the PSP is worse because of the expense, proprietariness, DRM, crappy battery life, and Sony's customer-hostile attitude.

    The way I see it, the pinnacle of handheld gaming is the GameBoy Advance SP.
  • As a DS owner (Score:5, Insightful)

    by neostorm ( 462848 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:54PM (#13412668)
    I have to agree. The dual screen rarely brings anything to the device that a larger screen or better use of existing screen real-estate doesn't. I hate the second screen in that respect, because it constantly diverts my attention from where it should be: the gameplay. There are a couple interesting uses for it, but I have yet to see any use of the second screen that justifies it.

    That being said, the rest of the device is a dream. The games that have come out for it (or are right around the corner) are almost always sure winners: Nintendogs, Kirby, the new Sonic, the new Mario, Castlvania, the upcoming Animal Crossing, Lost in Blue, Meteos, Advance Wars DS... I held off on buying a DS until yesterday (a few run-ins with coworkers playing Nintendogs finally sold me), and I think the library of games and creativity shown in each one really, genuinely offers something new to gamers. This is mostly because of the stylus interface, but they use the wireless and flip-top covers in wierd unique ways as well.

    The only thing else I could ask for would be that it played the old GB games, an analogue stick, and maybe a nice emulator (ala PSP). And considering that the PSP has all of those, that brings me to my point: the only reason the DS won me over for Portable Platform Money-Sink 2005(tm) was because the games are awesome.

  • by ucahg ( 898110 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:54PM (#13412669)
    The three-pronged controller was ackward?

    Hold the train, somebody better be rewriting history.. many claim that the 64 controller hasn't been beat.
  • by cataclyst ( 849310 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:55PM (#13412674) Homepage
    Um... for one, the consoles BEGIN as a loss leader (meaning that the company actually loses money for each console sold.) As the price of hardware manufacturing drops (as it *always* does over time), they start to make profit on the console instead of just the games. When they want to give their market a good jump start, they then decide to lose money on the consoles again...
  • Re:Gameboy (Score:2, Insightful)

    by pappy97 ( 784268 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:55PM (#13412676)
    "Is Sony really so arrogant as to think that the PSP is far and away superior to the DS?"

    Was there any legitimate excuse for DS not having FULL wi-fi capability at launch? I don't even mean being able to hack it and use a web browser like PSP, I mean playing online games with people all over world using free wi-fi at Starbucks.

    Sony has every right to not think of Nintendo as a threat in the new handheld market: Nintendo, once again, dropped the ball when it comes to ONLINE GAMING.
  • Re:Zonk... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:56PM (#13412683)
    Since the PSP's launch, Slashdot Games has posted article after article with titles like PSP Reception Lukewarm in U.S., PSP Not A Sellout Hit, What's Up With The PSP?, and most recently PSP Usage Lower Than Expected.

    Lemme fix that for you there, Zonker.

    "Since the PSP's launch, Zonk has posted article after article with titles like PSP Reception Lukewarm in U.S., PSP Not A Sellout Hit, What's Up With The PSP?, and most recently PSP Usage Lower Than Expected. "
  • by Neuticle ( 255200 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:57PM (#13412691) Homepage
    Let's count the corpses left in the wake of Nintendo's (almost always) "inferior" hardware:

    Game Gear
    Nomad
    Lynx
    That portable TurboGrafix16 (Name anybody?)
    Wonderswan, Wonderswan crystal / color
    GP32
    NeoGeo pocket, NeoGeo Pocket color
    Tapwave Zodiac
    Ngage

    That's just a short list off the top of my head, I'm sure that there are others that a more thorough search would reveal.

    The PSP is simply not in the right price/battery life/durability range for most people to be attracted to it. It will do well with the money-to-burn crowd and with the hard-core gamers who buy everything, price be damned. As for the casual gamer that is the bread and butter of the industry, I forsee it remaining sort of "meh".
  • by Endymion ( 12816 ) <slashdot...org@@@thoughtnoise...net> on Friday August 26, 2005 @08:57PM (#13412693) Homepage Journal
    what, a new, incompatable movie playing format on a portable gaming system isn't a gimic then?
  • by hotspotbloc ( 767418 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:00PM (#13412703) Homepage Journal
    IMO Nintendo could gain some new users by partly openning up the DS. It's clear Sony will most likely never open up the PSP.

    -----

    A request for Nintendo to open up the GB DS

    (BTW, is any of this even possible?)

    (Please note that while there is some comparisons between the Nintendo DS (DS) and the Sony Personal PlayStation (PSP) my comments should not be construed as a judgment on which unit has better games or is better for gaming. My comments and ideas are limited to the DS' ability to be expanded past it's current usage, which could possibly expand it's total customer base, and not about corporately generated games. While I mention Python as the interpreter of choice, Ruby should also be strongly considered. BTW, I know the name sucks but I'm sure someone will come up with something better.)



    The "App-Yan"

    I propose that Nintendo makes or allow someone else to make a device that fits into the DS game slot on the DS which allows users to run Python applications. Applications would be stored and loaded from a removable SD card.

    The "App-Yan" parts:

    Hardware:

    External housing design and dimensions: the dimensions would very similar to the "Play-Yan", Nintendo's mp3/mpeg4 player that fits into the GBA slot on the DS.

    SD or SDIO slot: Python scripts and/or related data files would be stored here. No propriety software should be required to copy files to and from the SD card. Open data standards should be used whenever possible. Also somewhat similar to the "Play-Yan".

    >256M non removable internal flash memory: This would be used for the storage of the Python interpreter et al and, at the user's choice, Python scripts or related data.

    A/D converter on the "professional" model: It's about expanding the DS and a "professional" version with multiple A/D converters would expand the DS' use, for example, for automated data collection.

    Software:

    Python interpreter: the Python interpreter, a signed Nintendo application, would be stored on the App-Yan's internal flash memory. It could be updated by Nintendo to address security flaws and bugs. Scripts could be run allowing for a text output or with a full GUI. GUI objects could be accessed from either the DS' internal GUI widgets or from standardized custom widgets accompanied with the interpreter.

    Signed script validator: Some groups have the need to ensure their scripts arrive at the user's DS unmodified. A built in public key signature system could be used to insure scripts arrive as they were intended.


    Why the DS
    ?

    The DS, like previous versions of the GB, is well designed and a nearly indestructible device. They have been successfully used in environments that normally would kill off similar electronic devices. The closest example of a device that can stand up to similar abuse would possible be a "hardened" PDA (either Palm of PocketPC OS based in a custom enclosure) costing at least four times the cost of the DS/AY (DS with an "App-Yan" device). The DS' low cost, durability and touch screens make it an ideal candidate for this project over other portable devices. The use of a GB for nongaming use is hardly new. The Singer Izek sewing machine (now out of production) used a GB as a stitch and pattern controller.

    What's the benefit to Nintendo?

    This project would expand the current customer base and places used. Many would say the "holy grail" of a portable gaming system is to allow for its use in a public school setting. This might be possible using the "dynamically generated exams" example sited below. While the DS performs well as a portable gaming system added uses would generate additional console sales which would generate added games sales. While Nintendo is still the king of the overall handheld gaming market, the Sony PSP has presented itself as extremely strong competition. With Sony's le

  • by earnest murderer ( 888716 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:01PM (#13412712)
    What's the superior but less sucessful product in the doll-house space? Singles? No. Until I can trap a woman I've "molested" in a room with no doors and thus foil the authorities it will never be able to compete.
  • Re:Gameboy (Score:2, Insightful)

    by nomadic ( 141991 ) <`nomadicworld' `at' `gmail.com'> on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:04PM (#13412727) Homepage
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Nintendo the PIONEER of the handheld market?

    NEC was. It took the rest of the industry 10 years to catch up to the turbografx handheld.
  • by a.different.perspect ( 817184 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:21PM (#13412799) Journal
    Even though he said it was "well seen" he didn't bother showing it to us? Even though the ONLY THING SLASHDOT DOES IS LINK TO OTHER SITES IT STILL FAILS AT IT?!?!?

    Go figure. [1up.com]
  • Timing (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Effugas ( 2378 ) * on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:25PM (#13412819) Homepage
    Basically, everyone's holding up their games for Christmas, because why release in August if you can sell three times as much in November?

    This has really wiped out the PSP as a platform for the time being, though. Lumines is great but it's not $300 great, and there's nothing else I want, even a little.

    They really should have done the mass-portage, best of PS1/PS2, and dribbled the stuff out until Christmas.
  • Whatever (Score:2, Insightful)

    by dr.banes ( 823348 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:37PM (#13412874)
    Sure its a little gimmicky...so is the PSP. They added all of these features and look what happens...people use it other than to play their games. Also, this shrunken down PS2 is seems to be a dump for ports,rehash after rehash.I already own a PS2 and dont need another one. Meanwhile...back at headquarters, Nintendo said lets make a game with dogs that you can talk to and touch with our new gimmicky 2nd screen and bang its a hit. What about that new surgery game thats coming out, use the stylus to operate...gimmicky but again its a hit. Sony needs original titles that are fun, period.
  • by Abcd1234 ( 188840 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:39PM (#13412883) Homepage
    ROFL! Dude, I don't know what drugs you're on, but I want some! Seriously, I love writing code for my DS as much as the next homebrewer, but you'd be foolish to think that I (and the rest of the homebrew community) represent any more than a miniscule fraction of the DS owners out there. The average DS owner couldn't care less if they could write software for their DS. All they want are decent games they can play on the go.

    Meanwhile, opening up the console prevents Nintendo from making money on those development licenses. Moreover, while the licensing model tends to reduce the number of third party developers for the platform, it also results in a much higher quality game library due to the higher barrier of entry (as opposed to the Playstation market, where there are a ton of games, but a small percentage are actually any good).
  • Hmmm.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by agraupe ( 769778 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:43PM (#13412898) Journal
    I just bought a DS the other day. It doesn't seem like much of a gimmick to me. The games are solid, and the touch screen is innovative. It's also $100 cheaper (in Canada at least). So far, the game selection looks better. Other than the GTA game, there's no advantage the PSP has in terms of upcoming games. Also, I think Sony has a lot of balls calling anything a gimmick when part of their strategy involves people buying special copies of movies, and watching them on a small screen.
  • Re:As a DS owner (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:44PM (#13412903)
    Your comment is disturbingly sadist (regardless of the pains you take to stress that you only hurt "evil" people). In my opinion, gratuitous violence like that which you describe is titillation (as with porn), not "gameplay."
  • by Lord Apathy ( 584315 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:51PM (#13412926)
    I'm not to sure of the future of the DS but one thing Sony needs to remember is Nintendo has dominated the hand held market for over 10 years. The PSP maybe a superior product but the smart money is on the DS.
  • by typical ( 886006 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @09:53PM (#13412932) Journal
    It's not that Sony has anything new to say. It's that articles like "emacs sucks", "Linux sucks", or "the DS sucks", no matter how stupid, redundant, and uninformative, are absolutely certain to generate comments (which will be similarly stupid, redundant, and uninformative).

    What this means is that the Slashdot editors couldn't find a single story of more content among every submission from all the Slashdot readers.
  • by chrysrobyn ( 106763 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @10:05PM (#13412981)

    I don't see any posters at this time who have recognized Zonk's post for what it is -- an attempt for Slashdot to be more than just a blog. The last major push for that backfired, nobody liked what Jon Katz had to say. Since day 1, Slashdot has been an approval system for links that we the readership submit. The editors have made some attempts to editorialize and have occasionally been flamed for it, but the editorials have been very light and Slashdot's readership has been flat for over a year.

    Slashdot can continue to mature and grow readership by doing a little research. Dig up some links from the past and make a comment. Zonk could have taken a small step in either direction by posting how well (or not) the DS has done to continue to refute Sony's stance (or show that the issue is still unresolved).

    Thanks, Zonk, for taking a small step in the right direction. We don't want a Slashdot newspaper, over-editorializing everything, but some light commentary would entice readers to get our feet wet in new subjects and make Slashdot an easier read for new visitors.

  • Re:PSP is great (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Rotting ( 7243 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @10:11PM (#13413003)
    I had a psp and thought it was great... at first. It may sound somewhat foolish but one of the main reasons for me getting rid of it was that it was almost too good. I was always handling it like a baby for fear of wrecking it. I looked beautiful but felt so fragile. Maybe it was just me.

    The other reason I ended up selling it was, and this will sound weak, the fact that it took a long time to load games. If I was playing Ridge Racer and wanted to switch to Tony Hawk it would just take what felt like ages to load. It got to the point where I would just say fuck it and leave the current game in the system.

    These issues don't really bother me at all with the DS that I picked up afterwards. Now if only it had an analog stick... :/
  • Re:As a DS owner (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cornface ( 900179 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @10:53PM (#13413154)
    I own a DS as well and must agree that the second screen really has done nothing for the experiece for me. The touch screen on the other hand has actually made for some great gameplay.

    Okay, now imagine for a second that you're using the touchscreen with no second screen. A nice game of "CRAP, I CAN'T SEE AROUND MY HAND!"

    Now does the second screen make more sense?
  • by MindPrison ( 864299 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @10:56PM (#13413167) Journal
    The idea of virtual pets are not new - that was besides the point. The new thing is that you actually touch the screen and thus...the dog! It's NOT the same as moving your mouse around where the arrow hits the pet.... you get an entirely different feel when you use your fingers on the display and it - to us - looks like actually touching the pet. We can always argue about the actual difference in that...but social as we are...the need to get "closer" is pretty evident in it's success.
  • Re:Sour grapes (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Friday August 26, 2005 @10:58PM (#13413177) Homepage Journal
    I think another point to add is the cost. One can buy two DS units for $10 more than it costs to buy one PSP.

    Sony has to work hard to promote the PSP as an all-around portable entertainment machine. For me, that won't happen unless they open up the UMD spec so I can record UMDs and use them on the PSP. I don't think that will happen though.

    I don't have either unit, and I am planning to sell my backlight-modded GBA because I use it only rarely now.

    Right now, I am just using a Palm compatible device, and it does what I want for now, games (though rarely), more for images, audio, video and PDA functions.
  • by toddestan ( 632714 ) on Saturday August 27, 2005 @12:15AM (#13413481)
    As for the sim market, I'd take good old Simcity 3000 any day. (Simcity if you're die hard oldschool, or Sim City 4 if you prefer.)

    Actually my favorite SimCity was 2000 (though the SNES version of SimCity would be a close 2nd). 2000 added things to the game to make it better and more enjoyable to me. 3000 and later added stuff that just seemed to make the game more tedious and frustrating.
  • by Trepalium ( 109107 ) on Saturday August 27, 2005 @12:48AM (#13413602)
    The gamegear was expensive to buy, and expensive to operate. At the time of the GG, you had the choice between disposable alkaline batteries, or rechargable nickel cadmium batteries. Unfortunately, NiCads were typically underpowered, provided poor battery life and needed to be replaced quite frequently. The result was you had to pay a lot just to play the darn thing.

    The PSP has entered a slightly different environment. The proliferation of cellular phones, PDAs, laptops, and digital cameras has forced the costs of producing nickel metal hydride and lithium ion batteries down. For $20-$30, you can pick up a set of NiMH batteries and a charger. The price of keeping the device powered becomes far less of a problem this time around.

    On the other hand, the PSP could easily fail because it has a pretty lousy line-up of games available, and, of course, because it's expensive. I think battery consumption problem is pretty minor these days.

  • by DoctaWatson ( 38667 ) on Saturday August 27, 2005 @02:28AM (#13413836)
    Zonk posts an article that he disagrees with so that he can give his rebuttal opinion by listing a handful of previous dissenting stores that were posted by... Zonk.

    Well great. We know where Zonk stands. Now why can't we mod him down for redundancy?
  • by FidelCatsro ( 861135 ) <fidelcatsro&gmail,com> on Saturday August 27, 2005 @03:41AM (#13414046) Journal
    Superior is not defined by a more powerful processor /better graphics /more features alone.

    The DS for example is of far better build quality , has more games that are suited to mobility ,better battery life , a touch screen...

    I own both and my PSP is busy collecting dust .. the only game i will buy for it in the next 6 months or so (as far as i can tell right now .. things may change) is GTA liberty city stories and have only purchased 1 game for it .
    where as i have purchased 5-6 games for the DS and about 8 Gameboy advanced games over the last 6 months, I also intend to purchase a few before Christmas .anecdotal evidence i know , though I also know a fair few other people in the same position .

    In the console market , the superior product is the one with the superior games.

    Take the PS2's position in the market right now , it is by far the weakest console , (discounting handhelds , though even the PSP is more powerful in a few regards)yet it is pulverising the competition
  • by LKM ( 227954 ) on Saturday August 27, 2005 @05:06AM (#13414225)
    The 3 prong controller is impossible to access all buttons readily.

    That was exactly Nintendos intention. You can have hold it analog-button (for, say, Jump-N-Runs), digital-button (for example for puzzlers) or analog-digital (such as for FPS). That way, developers are forced not to use too many buttons. You may like this or not, but for most non-hardcore gamers, it's a great idea.

  • by tgibbs ( 83782 ) on Saturday August 27, 2005 @08:24AM (#13414695)
    I believe the reference was to the weird little GameBoy Micro they just released; and I'm inclined to agree with the Sony guy actually, it is a gimmick.

    No, if you RTFA, you'll see that he was specifically talking about the touch screen on the DS.

    As for the GBA Micro, it is not a gimmick, but it is nothing special--merely another edition of the GBA that offers a more convenient size--small enough for people to carry around routinely, like they do a cell phone. As such, it will compete with the cell phone gaming market, which Nintendo may see as more significant competition for the GBA than the Sony PSP. The Micro also differentiates the GBA from the DS, and demonstrates to developers Nintendo's continuing support of the GBA platform.
  • Re:PSP is great (Score:3, Insightful)

    by colmore ( 56499 ) on Saturday August 27, 2005 @09:30AM (#13414944) Journal
    Yeah, it's got Lumines and ummm...

    Emulators... and overpriced movies...

    It doesn't matter if you've got a portable Cray with a blindingly bright XGA screen that gets 800 hours of playtime on fairy dust, if there aren't any good games, it isn't worth buying.

    Nintendo is doing what they always do, putting fun, addictiveness, and play control ahead of all other considerations. As a result they have a "technically inferior" product that is a much greater pleasure to own and use.
  • by shadow0_0 ( 59720 ) on Monday August 29, 2005 @10:59PM (#13432730) Journal
    I think the reason is that PlayStation always have more games available than N64/GCN. I love my GCN but there are games that make me get a PS2 (katamari damacy, FF series, GT series, Resident Evil, God of War etc).

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