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Valve's Gabe Newell Speaks on Console Development 529

A user writes "Gabe Newell, of Valve fame, criticizes Microsoft and Sony on how difficult it will be for next-gen developers to produce games on their upcoming hardware. He is especially critical of Sony's model, where code written to run on Cell will be very hard to port to other systems, and vice versa. Will this bring upon a new era of PC Game superiority? Only time will tell. In the meantime, Newell says he believes that Steam-like systems will be extremely helpful for developers on the new consoles due to their ability to provide updates and new content."
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Valve's Gabe Newell Speaks on Console Development

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  • Pots and Kettles (Score:3, Informative)

    by fembots ( 753724 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @05:59PM (#13485528) Homepage
    Steam-like systems

    You mean the one that forces you to "update" before you can play its game? This system is making a player's life difficult too.

    It's worth noting, however, that Valve is historically a PC games developer and has only made two console games thus far--Counter-Strike and Half-Life 2, both for Xbox.

    I think this line says it all - Valve is inexperienced in cross-platform console game development, and it's whinging about it. Kind of reminds me of Alternative Browsers Impede Investigations [slashdot.org]
  • Actually (Score:4, Informative)

    by Solr_Flare ( 844465 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:06PM (#13485562)
    Say what you will about Gabe and Valve, he is very correct about both systems. In Microsoft's case, they've made things a pain for developers by having two different models with and without a hard drive.

    In the case of the PS3 and Cell, it is different enough in design from "traditional" architecture that cross platform development for it is going to be a nightmare.
  • Video Interview (Score:5, Informative)

    by DrIdiot ( 816113 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:09PM (#13485581)
    http://valve.1up.com/flat/Themeweek/Valve/video6.h tml [1up.com]
    There's the actual video interview.

    I spoke to some people at Microsoft, and as I said, I can't point to a single feature in Vista that I care about that solves problems for us.
    I can't see a single feature in Vista that solves any problems I've had with Windows on the consumer's side either.

    And I totally see why Sony wants people to write code that runs on seven SPEs and a central processing unit, because that code is never going to run well anywhere else
    You can say the same about DirectX. You can never run DirectX on anything but Windows. (WINE doesn't count). This is common practice, it happens with proprietary formats, why wouldn't it happen with game consoles?

  • by 88NoSoup4U88 ( 721233 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:20PM (#13485643)
    Ironically, the CD version of Counter-Strike : Condition Zero allows just that : Playing the game from memory (it does not install anything besides your configs).
  • Re:Actually (Score:5, Informative)

    by Osty ( 16825 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:23PM (#13485663)

    In Microsoft's case, they've made things a pain for developers by having two different models with and without a hard drive.

    It's only a pain if developers want to use the hard drive as more than a glorified memory card. Otherwise, there's no problem. Developers have said that Microsoft has been telling them for a while now to design their games to work without the a hard drive. If developers choose to ignore that advice (and it's questionable whether that's just advice or if it's part of the certification program required to release a game for the platform), they have no one to blame but themselves. Consumers have every right to feel screwed by Microsoft making the hard drive optional, but developers have no right to complain. Besides, doubling the RAM from 256MB to 512MB is a much more useful change for developers than a standard hard drive, so they can't complain that Microsoft isn't listening to their feedback either.

    In the case of the PS3 and Cell, it is different enough in design from "traditional" architecture that cross platform development for it is going to be a nightmare.

    The PS2 is "different enough" as well, and yet that hasn't stopped anybody from building cross-platform games. Frameworks that abstract out the underlying implementation details will pop up soon enough. The real question is whether or not Sony is going to provide a good SDK to get new developers started. They didn't do that with the PS2, which really hurt their launch line-up and had the effect of removing smaller developers from the market because they couldn't afford to take the time to build their own framework or to buy one from someone else. Microsoft has always been very developer-friendly, and one would expect that to continue with the 360. With the next gen consoles being relatively equal in power, providing a good SDK and developer support will be a key factor in getting good games on the new platforms and in winning exclusive third-party games for their respective consoles.

  • Re:c'mon (Score:4, Informative)

    by FLAGGR ( 800770 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:23PM (#13485666)
    Exactly. To a non-coder it sounds like a walk in the park eh j3rry?. The x360 is, what, a triple core powerpc chip, and the PS3 is a less powerful chip, almost identical to one of the x360 cores, but with 7 SPE's (the S stands for stupid, not synergistic or whatever the fuck their marketroids named em)

    These consoles are taking the idea of multithreading to the max, and both are taking very different approaches. Porting between the consoles was hard enough this gen (xbox getting good pc ports as it pretty much was a pc, the gcn being a ppc and the ps2 being made by sony, who can never make anything easy to develop for, and required alot of assembly code and hand vectorization to get a game working well on the already slower hardware) but now we've got not just different architectures to support, but completly and totally different programming models to support.
  • Re:What's so special (Score:2, Informative)

    by biraneto2 ( 910162 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:26PM (#13485687)
    No, it's not. It's far from a simple download interface, it has a lot of code underneath its graphic interface.
    Systems that provide update features have big advantages over a download by yourself one.

    -The user don't need to know what he needs to update. If you stop updating... and a month later you try the game again you don't bother seeking and verifying the last 8 updates on the site. Not everyone is a linux user.
    -Updates can be released more often, since the system manages the updates needed.
    -Security. It's harder to crack the game. You may not mind it, but for a software selling company this is very important.
    -Communication and news. It's way more pleasant to view news when you login into a game system than recieving not always welcome mail.

    There is probably others I forgot to mention here.
  • Re:Video Interview (Score:3, Informative)

    by thirty2bit ( 685528 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:34PM (#13485716)
    You can say the same about DirectX. You can never run DirectX on anything but Windows. (WINE doesn't count). This is common practice, it happens with proprietary formats, why wouldn't it happen with game consoles?
    There is a big difference between API calls and writing code to run on a cell processor-based system. APIs can be thunked or emulated. Processor specific code, or processor feature specific code is a totally different matter. It may take gobs of assembly to implement cell processors which would be a major fsck to port.
  • Re:Pots and Kettles (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 05, 2005 @06:38PM (#13485734)
    Last time I checked Half-Life 2 isn't an 'online' game.
  • Re:Actually (Score:5, Informative)

    by PsychicX ( 866028 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @07:04PM (#13485860)
    Just so people know exactly what it is that Newell is complaining about: Cell architectural info [wikipedia.org].
  • Re:Pots and Kettles (Score:3, Informative)

    by yoyhed ( 651244 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @08:31PM (#13486278)
    You mean the one that forces you to "update" before you can play its game?

    I seem to recall a little option for each Steam game, oh what was it called? Oh yeah.. Do Not Automatically Update This Game.. It's available under Properties (right-click) of any game in Steam. And online games probably should have Automatic updating on, but if you don't like new models and features and bug fixes, then turn it off for your single-player games.

  • Re:Pots and Kettles (Score:3, Informative)

    by aklix ( 801048 ) <aklixpro&gmail,com> on Monday September 05, 2005 @08:32PM (#13486286) Homepage Journal
    Yes this is a repost... please don't mod me down, but feel free not to mod me up, I just think the information is much needed. You don't NEED to update your games in steam, well, atleast single player games. 1. Open Steam 2. Open "Play Games" list 3. Right click on Half-Life 2 4. Choose "Properties" 5. Select "Do not automatically keep this game up to date" 6. ... 7. PROFIT!
  • Re:Oh, like me? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 05, 2005 @08:56PM (#13486392)
    Why all the complaining about Fileplanet when Filefront has every patch on Fileplanet but at 10 times the bandwidth, no fees and no queues? Is someone forcing you all to use Fileplanet?
  • Re:Pots and Kettles (Score:3, Informative)

    by Koiu Lpoi ( 632570 ) <koiulpoi AT gmail DOT com> on Monday September 05, 2005 @09:54PM (#13486672)
    *hack cough* [cs.rin.ru]
  • by gozar ( 39392 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @10:28PM (#13486809) Homepage
    The complaints from developers at the time was that it was too difficult to write code for the two processors, so most games were written for the motorola 68000 (the same that was in the Genesis). This made games appear slower than on other contemporary game systems. It didn't have to be that way:
    From AtariAge.com:
    Technically, the Jaguar was impressive. Five processors reside in three chips, two of them being proprietary (Tom and Jerry) with a third being a Motorola 68000 coprocessor. The GPU runs at 26.591Mhz and is rated at 26.591 MIPS (Millions of Instructions Per Second). There is a 64-bit data bus for communication and two megabytes of fast-page mode DRAM.
  • Re:Actually (Score:3, Informative)

    by plalonde2 ( 527372 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @11:25PM (#13487031)
    *ALL* console architectures require that the developer is quite aware of the architecture. If you're not, your competition will eat your shorts.

    Heck, PC games require the developer to be very aware of the architecture; that's how they tune for performance; consoles just tend not to look quite like a PC, and thinking of them as PCs is just asking to produce (technically) poor games.

    Frankly, I'd be extatic if more PC programmers paid attention to the changes in architecture that have been happenning in the last few years: memory bandwidth is now king, much more so than processor speed. But few optimize their code for the bus...

  • Re:Pots and Kettles (Score:4, Informative)

    by delus10n0 ( 524126 ) on Monday September 05, 2005 @11:57PM (#13487147)
    - having to have an internet connection to play the single player game, and spending several hours waiting for it to decrypt when I bought it release day


    Decryption didn't take that long, I remember it being 30 minutes or something like that. Who cares? Also, you do not need an internet connection to play single player-- there is "Offline Mode", read up on SteamPowered.com's FAQs.

    - how they first required both steam activation AND a dvd check for the store-bought version


    Not Valve's fault-- the publisher's fault. You could have just bought the Steam version..

    - that I can't resell my copy of HL2 when I get bored with it


    You should do a survey to see how often people really do this, especially with games of this quality-- don't we all still have our Doom and Duke3d boxes? Even Wolf3d?

    - that when steam goes belly-up, I can't play (had that problem at a LAN party, massive counter-strike problems for lots of people as the net connection couldn't handle steam logins for 200 ppl)


    This gets brought up all the time-- if Valve/Steam went "belly up", I'm sure they would release an official fix, or some bright individual out there will figure one out. Sheesh. Your problems at the LAN probably stemmed from not reading SteamPowered.com's guide on running in offline mode.

    - mandatory patches tying up my internet connection unexpectedly, a real problem for dialup users


    You can choose in a game's properties to NOT keep it up to date, and patches will not be automatically downloaded. Half-Life2's box says it recommends a highspeed internet connection, and so does SteamPowered.com's "Get Steam Now!" page.

    - piracy protection that does nothing to stop hacked copies showing up on torrent sites, but makes me jump through hoops


    This is like the "iTunes" of online games-- I legally bought HL2 (the gold package) and have never had a problem playing the game, getting updates, or getting the new games when they come out (HL2 Multiplayer, Blue Shift.. and soon Lost Coast and DOD:S) I'd say it's a success for paying users. The copies you're taling about (pirated ones) suffer from no auto updates, no Steam interface, little/no mod support, and you certainly can't play online. Pfft.

    -randomly losing my installed game files, forcing me to spend hours downloading and reinstalling the game via steam (happened to me twice now)


    Sounds like you've got hardware problems-- check the SteamPowered.com forums for other people having similiar issues, and you might want to fill out a support ticket, that's what they are for.
  • Re:Pots and Kettles (Score:5, Informative)

    by HD Webdev ( 247266 ) on Tuesday September 06, 2005 @04:00AM (#13488082) Homepage Journal
    i agree completely. i will NEVER buy anything from valve EVER as long as steam is required. what really pissed me off was the fact that the original HL2 retail box didnt mention an internet connection being a game requirement.

    It did. If you don't believe me, check out the http://steampowered.com/ [steampowered.com] forums. People that did complain were told to look again at their retail boxes. Guess what they found?
  • Re:c'mon (Score:2, Informative)

    by marcansoft ( 727665 ) <hector@TOKYOmarcansoft.com minus city> on Tuesday September 06, 2005 @08:46AM (#13489008) Homepage
    At least on the PS3 (and before on the PS2) the point is not having several static threads doing work, but putting all the units in the system to work at once. So while the SPEs (similar to VUs on the PS2) churn out some 3d vertex translation list and do physics, the cpu can do game logic or some other stuff. The best optimization is definitely having everything running 100% at once, although I suspect what will usually happen (which makes life easier and is acceptable too) is that units operate in sync but simultaneously (e.g. the main cpu starts everything else each frame, and the all work at once.) There will be some wasted time as some unit will finish sooner, but being kept in sync simplifies programming. It is not like threads in a PC which operate asynchronously (unless you explicitly sync)

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