Free60 Project Aims for Linux on Xbox 360 511
BlueMoon writes "The Free60 Project wiki and developers mailinglist has been launched. The project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux and Darwin to the Microsoft Xbox 360 gaming console.
The site already contains some interesting details about the Xbox 360 security: per-box key stored on CPU, boot ROM will be on CPU too and a hypervisor verifies the running state of the kernel."
Easier option... (Score:1, Insightful)
Yay (Score:1, Insightful)
Why? (Score:0, Insightful)
Whata waste of time, effort and brains.
Re:Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz proces (Score:1, Insightful)
This is a joke, people!
Re:Easier option... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms (Score:2, Insightful)
Sounds like a good warm up (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yay (Score:2, Insightful)
Geeks don't need a "why." (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not too quick! (Score:2, Insightful)
That right there is what would get into Microsofts pocket, not Linux.
Hell, if you put Linux on the 360, all youve done is bought a system, but if you mod the system so you can play games, then you will have cost them thousands of dollars.
IF Microsoft is scared of linux, it sure as hell aint the game division.
this is good for microsoft (Score:4, Insightful)
when 360.0 is cracked, they'll learn how it was done, and make 360.1 more secure. same when people crack 360.1 etc. all the xbox linux code will be open source so they can have a good look at the methods used.
this is all good practice for them so that oneday they'll be able to make a computer that will only run windows and signed code. then they'll claim that anyone not using their secure platform must be a hacker or software/music pirate. then they lobby the
But they do care if.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Remember they are gambling on game sales to make a profit on these things.
Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, special purpose ok, but lean? After seeing the CPU specifications (3 symmetric cores, each with 2threads and running at 3,2Ghz each with plenty of registers) I thought that's pretty high end hardware. May be it's cripped in some other way that I can't see? It sure would be quite fun running Linux on this box for the power and form factor - all the power to the hackers!
Re:this is good for microsoft (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Nothing is perfect, and trying to decrypt and encrypt something on the same box right infront of the "evil consumer" is very hard to make bulletproof.
Write-once PROM most likely (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Source (Score:5, Insightful)
This ID can probably be accessed through the JTAG port, or accessed internally - the data is going to be in a certain format (Lot #, wafer #, x coord, y coord, or something similar) that would be easy to verify...
You could also make it so reading the id from one place and writing it to another was part of the reset sequence on the chip...
WRT getting the serialid out of the processor, you should be able to read it out through a simple JTAG instruction
Re:Well, in regards to piracy... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why bother? (Score:2, Insightful)
About that Mac Mini (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Erm why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Odd Timing (Score:3, Insightful)
Mobile computing is critical to Apple's strategy (indeed - mobile PCs are going to seriously erode the desktop market), where the PowerPC had few viable options. Mobile computing doesn't really matter much to the gaming console market.
Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms (Score:4, Insightful)
To quote A Canticle for Leibowitz, "How did that heresy get into the world after all these years?" Anything with a standard CPU inside it is general purpose. The Xbox 360 is a Turing machine...with great graphics and an overheating problem, but that doesn't affect its Turing-completeness. Your Linksys router, your graphing calculator, probably your digital clock, are all general-purpose too, if you can find how to reprogram them. This world has very few special-purpose devices left in it. The point of things being Turing-complete is so that they're not special-purpose.
Remember that anything with a microcontroller can have that chip reprogrammed. The only special-purpose chips left are probably in heavily-embedded systems like the chip inside your optical mouse or something. For most applications it's cheaper to program a general-purpose microchip in software, instead of making your own logic circuits.
Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's doubletalk for "you must use MS ______ to view this content".
Ooo! Ooo! And a cure for cancer too! (Score:5, Insightful)
I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?" I cannot abide this sort of arrogant stupidity.
1) All programmers/scientists/etc. are not equivalent. Life is not some computer strategy game. You can't just wave your mouse around, pull a person off one project, put them on another, and expect the same level of productivity. Maybe the Xbox 360 project will attract people with good hardware hacking skills that aren't really applicable on anything you care about.
2) What interests you may or may not interest people of technical aptitude. Sure, a cure for cancer would be really great, but not everyone is interested in whatever field of research will finally result in it. Some people might be more interested in entomology than oncology, and some people might be more interested in getting a cheap, powerful Linux home entertainment computer than whatever makes you happy. Your desires are not everyone else's desires.
3) What doesn't interest you isn't necessarily useless. An Xbox is a very powerful multi-processor system perfect for hooking up to a home entertainment system and well suited for light distributed processing tasks. It's also fantastically cheap for what it's capable of. There are numerous potential uses for it.
4) Not everything has to be useful to be worth doing. Surprise, surprise -- the people working on this might be doing it for fun! Even if it didn't have a lot of utility, that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing if it brings someone enjoyment to do it.
In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.
</frothing at the mouth>
Re:Source (Score:1, Insightful)
I suggested a scheme not too long ago for MS or Sony to produce box specific media with this kind of technology. Further if the 360 can detect that the machine has been modified in some way then they could start putting blacklists into media based on the chip id and the ability of trusted chips do decode pieces of data. You hook it up to Live and part of the handshake could involve these cryptographic components and serialized components it it could report that you've tampered with it.
It's hard to say if MS or Sony would ever use this kind of stuff for real, the risk of breaking a lot of people and potentially jading the whole commuity seems huge vs. the benefit. At the same time, the 360 has recieved a fair amount of bad PR (I've seen news on all the locals) about the defective units and MS doens't seem to care and doens't look like they are taking any protective steps to fix the bad press.
I defititely could see them putting the effort in to box specific media though, it opens a whole wealth of possiblities once their stuff is trusted as "secure" they'd own the next-gen media market. SACD, HD DVD (whatever the media format) etc.. would all use that.
Re:Nice try (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no absolutely unhackable security model. Even if there is absolutely no bugs in XBOXs software (which I find highly unlikely - this is Microsoft we're talking here), you can always modify the hardware until the code you want to pass passes. Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps.
The real questions are: is there a hack that requires so little effort from the part of the user that it is worth the trouble, and if so, how long until it is discovered ?
Re:Source (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore if it follows the MS TC model then the CPU's crypto store will also have MS X-Box boot and app signing Root certs. All code, especially the boot process will have to be signed by something that will pass a check against those Root Certs. At a guess I'd say they have more than one of each type and they can be revoked via firmware (ie over XBox live, or via code distributed in games) just in case their primary leaks. Finding buffer overflows or figuring out how to code the instructions for an alternative boot firmware wont help unless you can figure out how to sign the code you feed into CPU. If the hardware design is properly secure then that will require breaking a strong crypto system equivalent to that used in X.509 certs in order to compromise those MS owned signing keys. This is a much much harder problem than compromising the original X-Box (which only used software based crypto so it could be subverted by replacing the boot code) or the PSP (which seems to rely on no secure execution model at all). MS certainly know how this should be done, the question is did they actually try to do it and if so did they succeed. That is the main reason I'm interested in this X-Box 360 hacking attempt, it's success will show how serious MS actually are about extreme DRM.
My guess on that is that the answer is very interested indeed, if they can successfully implement a popular consumer device with a hard TC architecture then there are a lot of people out there who will want them to share it with them - the Cellular Telco's in particular love this stuff and will happily get into bed with MS if they can sell them a proven TC architecture that is resistant to attack.
Re:Hypervisor (Score:2, Insightful)
(Not that I think it's worth wasting any time and effort on finding it. Rather than trying to find the latest screw-up by Microsoft engineers, it would be far more productive to worry about improving Linux and free software on general purpose hardware.)
Let's get hacking. (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking of crashes... (Score:4, Insightful)
It was very easy for me to kill a devkit as it fell laterally while the console was on.
I can't imagine the retail system being less sensitive to that, as it's only normal for an HD to get damaged that way.
The problem is that the thing is meant to stand up, but it's light and it doesn't have a wide base.
Watch out.
Re:are there any non-gaming applications to this (Score:3, Insightful)
So for high performance computing, I don't see how networking a bunch of XBoxen together is going to deliver anything that couldn't be achieved by networking a bunch of beige boxes. With a custom-built solution, you aren't buying controllers, or the DVD-ROM, or the graphics chipsets that don't really do anything for you. Finally, you have better control over the hardware specifications.
The upsides: Well, they'll look much cooler mounted on the rack. And perhaps in a few months you can get used ones at very competitive prices. But overall, I think beige will always be king.
Re:Ooo! Ooo! And a cure for cancer too! (Score:2, Insightful)
In shorter, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from discouraging people from pursuing interests that they don't share.
Nitpick (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, a theoretical dictator of the world not have to "discourage" people. He'd just send in the shock troops and put an end to whatever the rablle was doing. :)
And the OP's attitude wasn't *that* horrible. Things should have their value questioned at all times. The lack of questioning things leads to most of the messes we have in the world today. Watch a politician give an interview thse days. I don't think "follow up question" is even in the cirriculum of journalism schools these days.
And, yes, "doing it for fun" is a perfectly valid answer, but there's no need to Bakersfield chimp on the OP. ;-)
Re:Question (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:this is good for microsoft, so what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Security isn't about perfection (Score:5, Insightful)
If it takes 50 solder points and a week of effort, 99.9% of your users won't modify their consoles and your software sales won't be negatively impacted. If it takes a complete code re-write then finding a hash collision to get a modified console online, nobody will do it. Heck, Nintendo found that adding 2 little plastic tabs to the SNES was sufficient to greatly reduce the scope of the import market.
Security is about dissuading people from doing things, not preventing them.
Re:os x? (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides, at this point all we could hope for is to be able to unlock the region code bullshit and to allow copied DVD's to run. I think this in itself will be a very daunting task - although invariably there's always some weakness in the system somewhere that allows this type of thing, no matter how strong the encryption is. I am a firm believer in making backups of games, especially since kids have a hard time putting the discs back in their cases. Hell, so do I. These aren't $10 music CD's here - they're $50 and $60 games.
The original Xbox was the ultimate modding game console. Being able to replace the dashboard, run a shitload of home-brew apps, media players and emulators, not to mention full linux distributions - and to store everything on the hard drive.. How much better then that could you get? I don't see the Xbox 360 becomming anything close. I'm guessing that's one of the reasons they went with this PowerPC chip instead of an x86 chip - not as attractive to hack and not as easy to port to.
Re:Nice try (Score:5, Insightful)
I know games programmers, and while many are competent, they rarely care/have time to audit their code for security bugs.
Enough! (Score:3, Insightful)
But enough already!
Look, it's reall simple... and I'm going to spell it out for you. Ready?
Microsoft makes a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows. We all know that. Every day, I promote Linux to as many of my clients / customers as I can. I sell new and refurb boxes with (k)Ubuntu installed. I build low-mid range servers running Gentoo and occasionally a *BSD. I install Linux on everything I can... because I'm a geek.
Now, all that being said, the reason I get paid to install Linux on everything is because Microsoft continues to make a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows.
However, they also make some other products, and some of them are actually pretty nice: mice, keyboards, and... gaming consoles. So, the question is: Since we hate Windows... we have to hate the Xbox (or mice, or keyboards, etc...)? If the answer is yes, then what about the PSy? Who do we hate more this week? Micro$oft or $ony?
Because... $ony installs rootkits on our computers... remember?
But we game (we're hanging in games.slashdot.org... right?)
So, which side do we choose? Because let's face it... you hate Microsoft and want to put them out of business (No more Xboxes, no more Windows... which means no more desktop games), and you hate Sony and don't want their rootkit installing shite, and if all that happens, then there'll only be Nintendo left and you'll hate them because they're monopolizing the gaming market.
So, here's my thing... You really hate Microsoft? Hate the part that matters and do something about it! Hate the OS, because it's insecure, because it's buggy, because it stamps out competition, innovation and growth. But do more than hate it... actively participate in offering a choice. Volunteer a little time and energy and package old PII's and PIII's w/ a light Linux and offer to assist an NPO in acclimating to it. Put your burner to good use and start burning Live/Install distros and passing them out to anyone even remotely interested. Simply put... get involved in a real way. Put the $400 you were going to spend on a 360 (to SHUT M$ DOWN, DUDE!) and buy a burning system and get to work!
But enough with this kind of psuedo-guerilla warfare talk. It's just a bit annoying. Because for every hundred of you that say something like... "Yeah, I'll install Linux on my Xbox 'cause it costs M$ money", one of us have actually done it... because we really are geeks. (And, because in a pinch, an Xbox running Linux makes a damn quick and easy backup server =D ).
And just to answer the question... yes, I do practice what I preach. My Stellar2 burns an everage of 150-200 discs a month (ranging from Live distros -- usually knoppix or Ubuntu, install discs and other OSS projects like OpenCD). And, if you'll look below, my sig is the truth... My Microsoft Partner rep does not like me... at all. Why? Because every month on the phone I ask her this question: What am I doing to help "win the war"? I'm putting the best OS I can into the hands of my clients. What are you guys doing to make that OS Windows?
Now, after a long and heated rant... I'll get back on topic with the actuall article and say this... Linux on a 360? Souns interesting... as soon as its possible, I'll try it. It'll be even nicer than Linux on the Xbox for one reason I can think of (outside of muscle & memory, of course): We can hook it up to a monitor this time!!!
Get to work, Bunny! I'm waiting to follow in your mighty big footsteps!
Re:Nice try (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Security isn't about perfection (Score:5, Insightful)
If it takes 50 solder points, somebody in China will figure out a way to make the work go quickly, and people will import them from Lik-sang. And we're nowhere near the 50-solder-point mark yet. And granted, if it got to the point where modifying it took more than $50-100 of work, people would just buy the nearest-priced open media portal device instead.
Ultimately, technical security is completely different from physical security. Developers can do things in their home that's not detectable anywhere, and once things are broken once, they can easily be broken everywhere.
Er... say wha? (Score:5, Insightful)
Once you get into hardware probably very few people will attempt it. Too risky.
I don't know what circles you travel in, but I don't know *anyone* who owns an Xbox that is not modded, and that is out of about 20 to 30 Xbox owners.
The benefits of modding (namely, XBMC and the ability to play backups) are just too great to *not* do it.
It will be the same for the 360 - a hardware mod chip will be out in a matter of weeks, and everyone and their dog will have one.
Re:Geeks don't need a "why." (Score:3, Insightful)
So what I'm trying to say is that somebody needs to stand up an say that Linux could just be an excuse for hardware hackers looking to crack the Xbox and play gamerips.
I've got Karma to burn & nobody has brought it up yet.
Re:Nice try (Score:4, Insightful)
After that, rename your Xbox to "Ship of Theseus [wikipedia.org]".
Re:Enough! (Score:5, Insightful)
The real danger is that the 360 represents some of the first real shooting in the DRM wars: a large-scale deployment of hard-wired cryptographic restrictions with the sole purpose of locking consumers out of their own property. Running Linux on this hardware is just a fun side effect of the very important and immediate need to defeat trusted computing and digital restrictions technology -- and to defeat it soundly and rapidly.
Re:About that Mac Mini (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a pretty good incentive to get Linux running on them. Having a handful of them as rendernodes would be a great application, and would be great to have Microsoft sponsoring the independant Australian film industry to the tune of $US170.00 per node...
Re:Assuming you're right (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft has made noise in the past about the Xbox being a test bed for these types of schemes.
Re:My Thoughts Exactly (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, who needs good games anyway? Much more fun to play a poorly done version of some 10 year old PC game.
Come again? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wrong, and wrong. (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as using a game savegame to escape the executable lock, you still need to somehow get that savegame into the xbox. As far as I can tell, most people use the controller or something to get a memory card connected to a PC, which they then connect back to the Xbox. This would still involve a modified xbox controller cable. More effort, more hassle, more cost. It's cheaper then a mod chip, but it's still not getting us any closer to a very cheap commodity PC since it's still a 733Mhz celeron with 64MB (shared) RAM, which was still slow back in 2003 - you could get AthlonXP 3000+'s and 3Ghz Pentium 4's in 2003. Or, a very modest Pentium 4 2Ghz with 256MB RAM for cheap, cheap, cheap.
When the Xbox was brand new, it would have been pretty kickass to use it as a replcement PC, and I still enjoy tinkering around with it now. It's just not worth it anymore, which was the original point; by the time the Xbox 360 is hacked up enough (if it ever is) it will be equally as much just a toy.
Anyways, I'm through on this subject.
Re:Enough! (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately DRM is not a technology that you can defeat with another technology. DRM is a societal choice and a collective state of mind that you can only defeat with politics.
The 360 might be the first platform that will remain closed until it's obsolete. Or maybe the next one will. Anyway, is it sane to rely on a few hackers to protect consumer freedom ?
AC