Xbox 360 File System Decoded 225
slurpster writes "The register reports that Pi group has decoded the file system used in the Xbox 360. They write "Once you get past the protections and down to the raw bits on the disc, its just the standard xboxdvdfs, however the offset and layer breakpoint are different.""
Took that long? (Score:2, Interesting)
how? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Important to Note (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Owww arr Bill Gates... (Score:3, Interesting)
huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
The first xbox took about a year for the first mod chips. Right now people are doing the easy part and deciphering how everything runs.
The hard part is how to get unauthorized code to run. This part involves bypassing systems bios and installing a compatible version over the top that the system cannot detect. This could take a few years.
Re:how? (Score:5, Interesting)
You start by looking for signs of things you know should exist. It's Microsoft, so they would probably use a file system along the lines of one they already use, like FAT or NTFS. Look for signs like a file table and figure out how they stored the information regarding where things are placed.
With some trial and error, you can determine exactly how things are placed there, and what format is used to describe them. (Meta data.) After you understand the meta data, you write a program to let you access it easier and then you start understanding the data.
I'm not guessing at any of this. This is exactly the process I used to write my Sims skn2obj converter a few years back. Maxis was very very tight-lipped on everything and wouldn't even respond to eep2 or I. He pointed out how close it looked to OBJ format and I took it from there. It turned out the format was relatively close, but there was a lot of extra data that obj didn't handle and everything had been rotated and transformed.
Anywhere, as always, it's a ton of work and guesswork both. (Very rewarding, though, once you get it.)
As for how to break encryption... I assume it's along the same lines, but I've never even tried it.
neato (Score:0, Interesting)
Am i missing something or does that not mean that a mod chip is imminent ? Increased power and the ability the do stuff i want to ? well, this can only mean good news for the xbox 360 sales.
make better games that gamers want and the games sell too , now that the consoles are bought anyways...
Encryption? (Score:4, Interesting)
Will this mean that if processor and read latency speeds are acceptible, that the file system could be encrypted in future versions?
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Re:Owww arr Bill Gates... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Look out (Score:5, Interesting)
Ya know, it's starting to become a relatively predictable model, game systems, especially for MS. 1) Release console, 2) hackers bypass DRM, 3) someone deciphers FS, 4) ROMs released, emulators attempted, 5) Linux now runs on it, etc.
I'm wondering if, along with the release of a game system, Microsoft and other companies don't have legal offenses prepared in advance, so that the pounce-factor on those that break the FS/DRM schemes is near immediate. Would make sense, since it's almost guarenteed that someone will break it, and they'll get threatened/sued.
Re:huh? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Uhh? (Score:2, Interesting)
I hope not. (Score:1, Interesting)
That day, and not before, will FOSS be on the path for 'World Domination': most people, when considering alternatives to Microsoft products, do not take into account license fees, because they have no intention to pay for them; as long as Windows / Office can be easily obtained for free, FOSS will be at a dissadvantage.
Parent Overrated (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:neato (Score:5, Interesting)
You can checkout Xbox Scene [xbox-scene.com], or Free60.org [free60.org] for information.
Think more evilly (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is MS in the console market in the first place? Lets not forget that the x-box is directly competing with MS own product windows. Yes windows is a game platform as well and MS itself produces games for that platform. Exclusive games even that are not available on consoles not even its own. They are still doing it now even with the arrival of the 360.
I think the entire reason is that MS is desperate to spread out its wings. Focussing on one or two key products wich make all your money leaves you incredibly vulnerable to changes. Bill Gates probably knows like nobody else how easy it is to replace the market leader in the Word processing/Spreadsheet market or even the OS market. You youngesters may not know this but there was a day when suggesting you buy MS for a business enviroment had roughly the same reaction as suggesting linux a few years ago.
One of MS dreams has been to get a share (the lionshare) of the mythical living room entertainment hub whatever that maybe. At the moment the PC usually stands in the corner if it isn't banned to the bedroom or some pokey hobbyroom. The Internet TV was one attempt at getting the PC into the living room. It bombed but the idea remained and the very popular consoles are now being seen as the next battleground as to who will control the living room.
iTunes if anything has proven that there is a point. How many people here run iTunes because they bought an iPod? Would you have used iTunes if you bought say a Zen instead? Might it be possible that if you owned the living room entertainment center to then put something like iTunes on it and control the distribution of digital media into the living room? Can you say commercial wetdream?
The x-box was not an attempt to beat sony at making a good game console. It was an attempt to control peoples entertainment. The 360 is the same. The battle is on for who own the living room PC, the desktop PC has been won. Why do you think Sony actually sold a linux extension to their PS2? Because they are such nice people who like the whole opensource movement? Or because they are experimenting with turning their game consoles into a more PC like device.
I seen rumours about the PS3 actually running linux as either its core operating OS or at least being capable of doing so for certain tasks. If you look at the design of the cell processor it certainly seems designed far more for multitasking, essential for a desktop not for gaming.
What would happen if people actually could really surf the net (or better a subset of the net filled with your own sales channels) and everything else via their entertainment center? Oh I am not talking about people here but those people who have only got an old virus and spyware laden 98 15" CRT machine in the bedroom and a shiny new PS3/360 in their living room hooked up the a widescreen HD. It certainly seems to have MS worried that it might not be their logo on the software.
So MS doesn't care about profits. Yet. It cares about nobody but them owning this "new" market. Wether they are right or not and wether they succeed or not does not matter. They believe it is a battle to be fought same as for the Internet TV and same as with PDA's and same as with Mobile Phones. Internet TV bombed all around, PDA's MS sorta kinda won and mobile phones is unique because the phone makers do NOT want MS to muzzle in on their business.
Sony too must be smart enough to realize that MS is its true enemy, nintendo is just a competitor but MS is out to destroy it. But sony despite having a far wider customer base then MS is doing very badly. Some people even suggest that the PS2 might have won in sales numbers but it just hasn't made Sony the kind of money it needs.
So MS has the simple opti
The whole concept of protection is flawed (Score:5, Interesting)
- It's the same as with DVD, etc. : You've got the content, the decryption key and everything required in the same place.
Data may be encrypted in an Xbox, but ultimately, the XBox has to start-up, decrypt, and run decrypted code.
The content virtually exist in an unencrypted form.
Good protection relies on secret.
When you transmit encrypted e-mails they are much more secure because an encrypted e-mail per-se doesn't contain everything needed to decrypt it. The XBox does.
This is only "traing to keep things hidden from user" and is pointless.
It'll get cracked, no matter how much bucks MS spent on it.
Unless XBoxes where to commit suicide and nuke the whole place if they find the slighest error (errors likely to show that somone is reverse-engeneering and trying to feed constructed data to see reaction), it's hard for Microsoft to stop anyone with decent tools to try to reverse-engeneer their conoles.
Re:Obviously Slashdot again is a bunch of n00bs (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The whole concept of protection is flawed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Fair use (Score:5, Interesting)
A:Yes, it is. Which means you won't be sued for copyright infringement, you will only be charged with circumvention.
Q:But it's fair use???
A:Fair use is not a defense to circumvention.
Q:But how can I exercise my fair use rights then???
A:Fair use is not a right, it is an affirmative defense. So if you can't do it without breaking some other law, you can't.
Q:But... it's all copyright isn't it???
A:No. Even though it is called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, only some of the paragraphs deal with copyright. Others deal with circumvention.
Q:So my fair use right are...?
A:Effectively gone, yes. Also you can't touch circumvention tools or talk about how to make one. Depressed yet?
Re:XBox "Live" Watchdog??? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Took that long? (Score:5, Interesting)
There will be always more clever people out there then those employed in various corporations...
Yeah, that's what I used to think as well. These days I think differently.
Sure, the world is full of clever people. However, the clever people who work for the technology companies have several advantages over those that don't:
I think people have been misled by the ease of breaking pure software copy protection on x86 computers. Compared to dealing with custom hardware like the Xbox pure software solutions are very easy to attack because many people have the required tools and knowledge (typically a debugger and fluency in assembly). Comparitively few people have tools to look inside microchips and figure out what they're doing - and of course, physical things are far harder to change than software which is just a series of numbers.
And even then, it's possible to make very tough to crack pure software solutions if you get enough smart people on the problem. For instance, Windows Media DRM has had remarkably few exploits given how high profile it is: the last was back in January IIRC and it was rapidly patched (so it no longer worked after a few weeks). Even then that crack didn't let you decrypt any arbitrary file: you had to actually purchase a license first. The current generation has remained uncracked for nearly a year.
For games, some programs protected with StarForce encryption have never been cracked (and some have, but StarForce lets the developers decide how much effort they'll put into protecting their software so that's not really surprising).
Anyway, if you look at the actual technical details of how things like Xbox and DVD protection were cracked, they mostly relied on massive flukes that were only found after years of searching and typically a 3rd party had to screw up somewhere first. With each successive generation of these technologies they've been iteratively improved and I see no reason why console protection won't follow the same path DirecTV/NDS satellite security followed: a few generations in, no more cracks have become available even after many years and despite the potential profit.
Re:The whole concept of protection is flawed (Score:5, Interesting)
The games are digitally signed, and the console only knows the public key, refusing to run games that were not signed with the private key. Without using "sploits", this is pretty much unbreakable without someone finding the key. The Atari 7800, Lynx, and Jaguar keys were found by dumpster diving around a dying Atari; the 3DO key is still not publically known.
When the 360 gets broken, it will surely be through sploits. And then MS's plan is probably to "upgrade" systems over Live, and maybe even by games offering an upgrade and requiring it to play, like with the PSP. Whether the closing of the holes will work remains to be seen.
Re:Look out (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Look out (Score:3, Interesting)
This was infact highly notable when examining the PS3, The Cell design they used was abysmal when it comes to highly branching AI or decision making type code. And it seems the 360s cpu is as well. What remains to be seen is wether Nintendos cpu also has this encumberment or if they have foreseen it and attempted to allow speedier branching. Given the difference in market focus its quite possible.
But even with low branching performance, it would still make a damn powerful machine to offload work to. 6 threads at 3.2Ghz can crunch a lot of data regardless, since theyre PPC with a reasonable pipeline length it doesnt suffer as much as say.. a P4 would.
and
"Simpler cores have lower per-thread performance (shared resources) but simple multi-threading cores should scale much better in troughput/core and throughput/watt. (less/no wasted work, fewer sub-circuits having idle cycles, less duplicated logic) I personally believe that such quad-threading CPUs will be the sweet spot 3-4 years from now."
well its the sweet spot now actualy. Check out the Sun UltraSparc T1 cpus and their new servers based on them, capable of 8 cores each running 4 simultaneous threads, and theyre working on the 16 core version and getting that ready for next year. Sun saw multithreading and Dual cores as the future before 2000 and theyve been getting ready for it in a big way as those servers show.
ARGHHHH! (Score:1, Interesting)