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XBox (Games)

Xbox 360 Update Shuts Out Hackers, Fixes Issues 106

Posted by Zonk from the big-go-away-sign-on-the-front-lawn dept.
Gamasutra reports on the update to the Xbox 360's Live element, which fixes a number of bugs and smooths out certain elements of the system. It, allegedly, is also intended to shut out folks trying to hack Microsoft's new console by making the demo disc unusable on retail machines. From the article: "The demo disc in question was produced for Xbox 360 retail demo kiosks, and was found not to contain any copy-protection when hackers obtained their own unauthorized copy of the software in mid-December ... meaning it was possible to run demo versions of the Xbox 360 software on the disc on burned media. Several commenters on website Xbox-Scene seem to confirm that the disc is no longer functional."
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Xbox 360 Update Shuts Out Hackers, Fixes Issues More

Xbox 360 Update Shuts Out Hackers, Fixes Issues

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  • Probably not, but I thought I'd ask. Did they add anything new that's good?

    • Re:Changelog? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Funk_dat69 ( 215898 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @07:41PM (#14602927)
      Found this on xbox-scene.com

      changelog:

      This free update, is now available over Xbox Live. There are no new features in this release, but rather a series of fixes and enhancements. Some of the items the update addresses are:
      * Improved logic around deciding if saved games should be deleted and offer the option to only delete the profile and to leave all save data.
      * Users reporting blank Friends List on the Xbox 360 dash after muting a friend while playing a game in Backwards Compatibility mode.
      * Improved synching of games played to Web and in console.
      * Network settings: keyboard does now allow entry of - (dash) character in the keyboard.
      * Improvements to the Xbox Guide.
      * Increased accuracy of "last time played."
      * Network configuration improvements for Xbox Live members in the Netherlands.
      * More detailed messaging for unreadable disk or region errors.

  • It's only a matter of time (Score:5, Insightful)

    by XenoRyet ( 824514 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @06:36PM (#14602468)
    I think we can all agree that the demo disc business was only a tenative first step by the hackers, and not in a very productive direction. Just something to get them going as it were.

    Despite MS's efforts, I feel safe saying it's still only a matter of time before a modded 360 becomes a reality.

    • But doesn't the ability to easily patch against exploits seem like a big mark against modders? They find another loophole, make some mods, and then M$ rolls out a new patch, pushing them back to the drawing board.

      Until they have to mod the hardware...

      JT
    • It is curious though that when a bug threatens to root boxes that M$ owns, the patch comes out in less than a month. When a bug threatens to root boxes that their customers own, they basically could give a fuck and take months or even years to try to fix it.

      • Re:It's only a matter of time (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Riight, because the people working on the xbox are the same 3 people working on Windows. They xbox folks also have to release patches that work in thounds of different configurations, and have to ensure that millions of applications don't break. It is also way harder to disable a key than it is to understand and fix an exploit.

        Wait, none of that was true.
    • This has nothing to do with hacking/modding an Xbox 360. This is all about hacking XBL. If you don't connect to XBL, the discs will still play.
      • That's a little misleading.

        If you *never* connect to XBL then the disks will still play. If you ever want to play on XBL after this patch is released then you have to install the patch and the disks won't play.

        It's significant, because you may want to have a modified Xbox, to run Xbox Media Centre for example, but still want to play your games online.
        • You are correct, however -- that is the current state with XBOXen as it stands. The original XBOX used to be able to connect to XBL and play online games while being modified if you turned off the modchips and had 'locked' the hard drive, but after a time, Microsoft got wise and started checking the model number and serial numbers of the HDDs installed in the XBOX.

          This ended up blacklisting a large number of XBOXen by their UID/Serial Number -- which could be gotten around by re-flashing your TSOP, but

    • How's this HACKING anyway? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Moraelin ( 679338 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2006 @02:19AM (#14604992) Journal
      Been meaning to ask this since the original "woohoo, 'hackers' released an ISO of an unprotected XBox 360 demo disk" article: how's this hacking anyway? What's the coding or even cracking challenge in making an ISO of a DVD? How's it "news for nerds, stuff that matters"?

      It's just piracy, and of the kind that doesn't need any skills. Any kid with a DVD drive and Nero or any other DVD burning program can make an ISO.

      Now I can see how, say, finding an exploit to boot Linux on the original XBox was "hacking" (in either meaning of the word you swear by). Or how those people who made the PSP load *ahem* "homebrewn games" (strange how those are only waved around as an excuse to load _pirated_ commercial games) were "hackers".

      But pirating an unprotected DVD? Gimme a break.
      • The release of the demo disc wasn't hacking, what people have been doing with it since then is hacking. For example being able to play any HD WMV file using parts of the disc to make your own movie disc.

  • Allegedly? (Score:1, Informative)

    by inio ( 26835 )
    allegedly, is also intended to shut out folks trying to hack Microsoft's new console by making the demo disc unusable on retail machines.


    Allegedly? The article quotes Major Nelson (The Figurehead of Xbox Live) saying it does that. In what way does that qualify as "alleged" information?

    • Re:Allegedly? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Jeng ( 926980 )
      Intentions allege results.

      Just becuase Microsoft may want to make something hack proof, doesn't mean they did.

    • Re:Allegedly? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Reeltime ( 691581 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @07:25PM (#14602831) Homepage
      Actually, it doesn't. The article does not quote Larry Hyrb (aka Major Nelson), it quotes a person who posted a comment to Larry's blog. This hack blocking code has not been officially announced, though it's pretty clear this was a reason for this quick fix. They did include some legitimate and necessary improvements, too, but probably rushed this out faster to block the demo disc.

    • Re:Allegedly? (Score:2, Informative)

      by InsaneLampshade ( 890845 )
      Uhh, actually that's not true, from the article:

      "mentioned by a pseudonymous commenter on the weblog of Xbox Live director of programming Larry 'Major Nelson' Hryb"

      It was mentioned in one of the comments on Major Nelson's blog...... and not by Major Nelson himself.

  • I can understand why . . . . (Score:4, Interesting)

    by denverradiosucks ( 653647 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @06:43PM (#14602517) Homepage
    I can understand why Microsoft is so protective of their XBox system, but for the sake of covering their own behinds, they have ignored an entire niche market (xbox hackers). I am curious to find out what percentage of original xbox's have mods made to them. There are dozens of different mods out there that enhance what Microsoft has put together.

    Instead of shunning these people, embrace them. Give them opportunities to mod the Xbox. Lend them code or reference design information. Do it with the idea that if you do, Microsoft will not honor parts or all of their warranty.

    Really, why would Microsoft really care about this? All it is is more Xbox units being sold and more money in their pocket. I see it as a win-win situation.
    • Every console manufacturer makes money from the sales of software, not the sales of hardware. Giving modders full blessing is actually a lose situation for Microsoft, as those people will buy hardware (which loses money) without buying much (if any?) software.

      • Nintendo doesn't. (Score:5, Informative)

        by Valdrax ( 32670 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @07:27PM (#14602842)
        Nintendo has always sold it consoles for a profit perhaps only losing slight amounts of money right around when it cut prices on the GameCube to $99. Selling at a loss is a recent thing, done by companies that can survive off of other products until revenue from game licenses kicks up. Nintendo, as a company that lives and dies by video games and consoles alone, has always had to sell the system itself at a small profit to stay in business.
        • Which still doesn't negate the fact that Nintendo makes the vast majority of its money on software, not hardware. Accessories being an exception, of course, but that applies to all console manufacturers.

          (And the Gamecube was also sold for a small loss when it initially came out, FYI.)
      • Yeah, just like Microsoft probably loses money on OEM Windows licenses and doesn't make any if Dell users buy non-Microsoft software. So why aren't the PCs locked down? Oh wait, maybe allowing 3rd party software generates more interest in the platform and eventually results in more users getting MS software and OS upgrades.

        • Re:I can understand why . . . . (Score:1, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Yeah, just like Microsoft probably loses money on OEM Windows licenses and doesn't make any if Dell users buy non-Microsoft software. So why aren't the PCs locked down? Oh wait, maybe allowing 3rd party software generates more interest in the platform and eventually results in more users getting MS software and OS upgrades.

          That just doesn't make any sense. You can't lose money selling more copies of a software product unless you sell the software for less than the cost of burning it to a CD (OEM). There

      • ... as those people will buy hardware (which loses money)

        What is your evidence for that assertion? Sure, they're probably not making much money on the hardware but I doubt they're losing any.

        The major cost is the sunk, fixed cost of development and tooling up.

        By maximising unit sales they amortise that cost over the number of units sold and also maximise the probability that people will buy associated products (i.e. the software) as well. Even somebody who's bought a console just to hack it is likel

    • I think it's a bit more then a niche market..... I'm guessing it's likely a good chunk of XBoxen are modded compared to the percentage of PS2's and every other system modded. Probably more moddes XBoxes then PS2's actually. I know I do, a friend of mine does. Although many people buy it for the games, Many with much of an interest in computers and games have probably modded it, or at least thought about modding it. I don't plan on starting a console war, but with what the XBox 360 is, and what the PS3
    • It is very important to Microsoft that people who buy the console also buy the games, with mods, they can add third-party software inciting them not to buy the games.

      Microsoft doesn't make any profit at all from people who don't buy games. It's bad business, they don't make a dime from selling the 360s themselves.

      This is also my theory behind the shortage in so that only those who really want the 360 buy the 360, and those who really want the console also really want the games.

      This was M$'s strategy all alo
    • since microsoft is losing money on every x-box sold i don't see how this is a good idea... allowing modding only means more pirated games (and royalties are where microsoft's profit comes from).

    • Re:I can understand why . . . . (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MaineCoon ( 12585 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @06:53PM (#14602597) Homepage
      Microsoft loses money on each system sold currently, and (hopes to) make it up on license fees for game sales. More games sold is more money in their pocket. Each unit sold is money lost.

      So every unit sold for homebrew modding for Linux, or modding for running pirated titles, is a financial loss, since it won't have any game sales to offset the loss and turn a profit.

      • Re:I can understand why . . . . (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Cutriss ( 262920 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @07:03PM (#14602684) Homepage
        But at the same time, every Xbox sold helps to create a self-fulfilling prophecy with regards to pitching the console to developers. If you can point at your market and say that there are n million consoles in deployment, even if 1 million of them aren't intended for game purchases, that still makes the market look that much bigger, and those console purchasers aren't exactly locked out from buying future games/accessories for the system, so even if you bought your console just to hack it, you're still just as marketable for the next extreme beach volleyball game as the normal game purchasers. The "clever ploy" fails.

        Incidentally, this is one aspect of anti-piracy where the PSP differs greatly from the Xbox. With the Xbox, console hackers would simply lose the ability to play games on Xbox Live, but they could still do system-link and otherwise play their games normally. The PSP's anti-piracy measures force the user to choose between either homebrew or retail games, a distinction which may (in a very small way) be part of the reason why the PSP doesn't sell very many games.
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Hardly. There are few homebrew games out there worth playing as the majority of development seems focused on ripping games and running them or emulators from the memory stick. Never mind that the majority of people out there will never touch the homebrew scene.

          The reason it's selling poorly is cause there's shit-all for games on the system and it costs $250. And -both- are reasons I bought my DS ($150, came with a game, and there's TONS of games available to choose from.)

        • "But at the same time, every Xbox sold helps to create a self-fulfilling prophecy with regards to pitching the console to developers. If you can point at your market and say that there are n million consoles in deployment, even if 1 million of them aren't intended for game purchases, that still makes the market look that much bigger"

          Developers also look at the attach rate for a console. They are very interested in the number of 3rd party titles that the average gamer has. If that number drops too low, yo

        • The PSP's anti-piracy measures force the user to choose between either homebrew or retail games, a distinction which may (in a very small way) be part of the reason why the PSP doesn't sell very many games.
          And let me guess, the DS games are just flying off the shelves soley because Nintendo lets people run homebrew off their machines...OR you could come back to the real world and realise that probably the main reason the PSP doesn't sell very many games is that:
          a)first and foremost the number of great ga

      • And... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by sbszine ( 633428 )
        "So every unit sold for homebrew modding for Linux, or modding for running pirated titles, is a financial loss, since it won't have any game sales to offset the loss and turn a profit."

        You know what's an even bigger loss, both financially and in a PR sense? An unsold unit. I can't believe the doublethink some people go through to justify buying an MS product.
        • Perhaps you wish I was trying to justify a purchase of an MS product.

          I was pointing out the financial reasoning of why allowing homebrew on the Xbox360 is not in Microsoft's best interest. I don't really care whether they do or don't allow it, or who does or does not buy an Xbox. Try following the grandparent posts of the conversation.
          • I agree with you, and the comment was intended as discussional grist ('some people' in the abstract) rather than an attack ('some people' == you). Sorry if it came off that way.
            • I'm sorry I took it as an attack since that wasn't your attention. My apologies for responding somewhat harshly in response.
      • Kids, how many times are we going to go over basic video game economics?

        The manufacturers make the bulk of their money on 3RD-PARTY LICENSE FEES. 3RD-PARTY LICENSE FEES ARE DETERMINED BY CONSOLES OUT THERE, NOT HOW THEY'RE USED. Total consoles in homes = more a company can charge for license fees, and more 3rd parties making games. The money console makers "lose" in the hardware sale is neglible.

        Your buying the console increases the fees they can charge. When they go to EA, Ubisoft et all, they can say
        • And to clear things up, the console manufacturers usually make the bulk of their money on that initial fee, not the per game fee. A game can totally flop and they'll still get hundreds of thousands of dollars from EA. The goal is to make the initial "sale" look good to the licensie -- actually selling the games is the licensie's problem.
        • But if EA knows that out of your 10,000,000 units, that 3,000,000 are being used for modding/pirating/not buying games and that your competitor has 0 units out of 8,000,000, then who do you think is going to have higher licensing fees. Realistically, EA will just make a game for both consoles, unless you only have like 100,000 units out there.
          • They don't know. No one knows -- that's the point. What is MS going to do? Check how many connect to Live and report that to the 3rd parties? Nope, can't do that -- some of the consoles will never be connected to a network.

            The numbers of hacked machines is probably extremely small. 30% would be way too high. I'd venture to say 3%, if that. And a lot of those machines DO end up being used to play games, so they should be part of the overall figures anyway.
        • On the other hand, Game publisher are not autist either. They read the news, and they decide to invest the initial fee only if they are convinced that the market is worth it: i.e. people actually buying games.
          I'm not sure Microsoft could ask the same price for 1 million console market console where almost nobody can pirate game vs where anybody with a dvd burner can copy a game. Game publisher will also look their concurrent and the number of game they sale to evaluate the price Microsoft ask. If 100% of XB

      • Microsoft loses money on each system sold currently

        The conventional wisdom, but where is your evidence for that assertion?

        Sure, they're probably not making much money but I'm pretty sure they won't be losing much either. Their big costs are the fixed, sunk costs of development and tooling. Maximising unit sales can only help amortise that cost.

        ---

        Open source software is everything that closed source software is. Plus the source is available.

    • Because Microsoft is also selling games for the Xbox. And some of those 'xbox hackers' are trying to run illegal copies of those Xbox games by hacking/modifying/etc it. This creates a loss-win situation in which Microsoft is (obviously) not interested in.
    • Even assuming 360s are sold for profit at their current price range, homebrew software is software MS didn't get money for.

      Hence they don't it distracting gamers from more important things like Christmas outfits they can buy for game characters.

      Replace 360 with PSP and MS with Sony and it's the same deal.
    • Microsoft loses money on each Xbox 360 sold. Encouraging mods encourages people to buy consoles for reasons other than playing licensed games, and licensed games are the only way for Microsoft to profit on the console. So mods are bad for business.

      • Re:I can understand why . . . . (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        "Microsoft loses money on each Xbox 360 sold."

        WRONG. Microsoft loses money on each Xbox 360 MADE. They partially recoup their losses with every sale.

        If you buy an Xbox 360 unit, you are giving Microsoft money and creating a potential scenario where you MIGHT buy a legitimate game just because you "might as well."

    • The Xboxes are probably still sold at a lose. They don't make
      money off the Xbox, they make money from the games. If people just
      buy a cheap Xbox and then pirate the games as they download them to
      an internal drive, then are are losing quite a bit of money.

      MS is trying to force the console to use used solely for the
      intention it was designed for. You can't really fault them for
      that. Now, if this updates disables feature that MS published,
      then you'd have a solid footing to complain.
      ... that's just
    • Just thought I should let you know, Sony supports modding the PS2, they have even offered a kit for it [playstation.com]. I think that their PS3 may come with it already installed. I guess this sorda takes the fun out of it.
    • they have ignored an entire niche market (xbox hackers) I don't think putting security in place is ignoring them. Putting in the security just makes it more challenging for the hackers. Putting in roadblocks and security in an attempt to stop hackers will never stop someone from at least trying.
    • but for the sake of covering their own behinds, they have ignored an entire niche market (xbox hackers). I am curious to find out what percentage of original xbox's have mods made to them

      9:15 ET, this thread has 60-odd posts. "The road less-travelled..."
      The reality at retail is that buyers are no more likely to hack their X-Box or X-Box 360 than they are their refrigerator or their microwave oven.

    • Agreed. The XBox is quite simply the best (specially for it's price) media center PC you can have. Software like XBOX Media Center are just fantistic in every way.
      I'm pretty sure that if the industry opened their eyes they would see what their carefully protected hardware could have been.
      If you can't beat them, join them. Then people wont need to mod their boxes to hell just to have it user it's full potential.
  • If M$ is able to push out updates to consoles via the web as I read the story, how long 'till hackers put the XBox 360 onto their own network and simply reprogram it?

    • Re:Pushing Updates (Score:4, Funny)

      by INeededALogin ( 771371 ) on Monday January 30, 2006 @06:59PM (#14602650) Journal
      /me whips out ethereal to get to work.

      Oh wait, I didn't buy an XBox360

      doh!
    • The update only goes out if you use Live. If you want to hack your Xbox, don't use Live. Microsoft's been pretty quick in disabling accounts of people who have signed on from hacked Xboxes.

      It's possible that some new games will surreptitiously install the firmware upgrade upon first boot (as I understand happens with the PSP), but again -- if you're hacking your Xbox, what are you doing spending $60 for games you could be downloading for free?
      • By surreptitiously do you mean by select the update before the game will run?

        Games on the PSP do not update the firmware without intervention from the user.

    • Re:Pushing Updates (Score:1, Informative)

      by rabiddeity ( 941737 )
      If they've done their homework, which it seems they have, the updates are most likely signed. Unless you can get ahold of that private key, you won't be able to push updates.

      • Unless you can get ahold of that private key, you won't be able to push updates.

        Amazingly enough it's the same as the combination of my luggage; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5!

        I better change the combination to my luggage.
      • If they signed it with their private key, then the public key that the system uses to check that signature must either be located on the system, or be downloaded from the server. If you could change the public key, either by swapping out a chip, or by tricking the system into getting the public key off the wrong server, then you could sign anything you wanted to run with your own private key, which corresponds to the public key which you switched the original one with. I'm not a mad haxor, so i'm not real
        • Most people believe that the key is stored in a boot rom INSIDE the cpu. Kind of hard to replace the public key without replacing the processor, and good luck getting ahold of a customized replacement ...
          • Yeah, but then it just comes down to how well they keep that private key, well, private. If there is only 1 key, then what is the feasibility of either brute forcing it, or stealing it from Microsoft. Once you have it, they can't change it, because it's embedded in every single CPU. Does everyone have to send their stuff to MS to get it signed? Even if they do, how well do they keep that key hidden, and away from anyone who might be interested in selling it.
            • The last attempt I'm aware of to brute force a key in a console was for the Jaguar, and if I recall correctly they had roughly a dozen dev units trying key after key for a few years before finally cracking it (I'm not even sure they succeeded; I think the company that owned the rights at that time actually released it into the public domain). The encryption on that box was weak; we don't know what size the key they chose to use is, nor what method they use for signing the binary. A brute force approach is
              • To add to this - the 360 is a full TCPA system. It is designed from the ground up to only run signed code, and the procedures for verifying code have been very well thought out. The master public key is indeed burned into the hypervisor ROM within the CPU. The only hope for getting the 360 to run code that's not been approved by Microsoft will involve exploiting bugs in the code that they ship.

                Sadly, this is the bleak future for PCs as well.. if the industry gets its way, they will all be like this, only ru

                • I don't believe that PCs will ever become like this. Or at least I hope not. For the end user, it seems like a pretty good idea. They can't pirate software, and don't have to worry about code being run that shouldn't be run. On the other hand, a lot of developers get cut out of the loop. How do you even develop for one of these computers. Do you have to resign the code every time you compile? Everyone would have to have access to the same private key, which doesn't make it very private. Either that
        • True enough. Let's hope they haven't buried that public key in the middle of a chip which is difficult or impossible to replace (like a proprietary sound chipset or integrated into a multipurpose IC for example) and buried it under layers of resin.

          Of course, every piece of hardware you can get physical access to is hackable, but it might be too expensive or too much of a PITA.

  • The Demo Disc (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why prevent the demo disc from being played?
    It presumably doesn't contain the full version of the games. This disc is basically free advertising. If people play a copied demo and like what they see, then they'll go out and by the retail copy of the game. Isn't that the entire point of a demo disc?

    The only reasonable explanation would be if the disc contained demos from 3rd party publishers, in which case Microsoft is presumably contractually obliged to not distribute their demos outside of the in-store k

    • Re:The Demo Disc (Score:3, Informative)

      by erikharrison ( 633719 )
      Because the demo disk contained unsigned, unencrypted code, which means that arbitrary code could potentially be run. Locking out the demo disk means that crackers can't find out how to run unsigned code on the machine, preventing softmodding

      • Re:The Demo Disc (Score:2, Insightful)

        by oz_paulb ( 617486 )
        The demo disc was meant to run in retail kiosks - not as a general demo for advertising.

        Because the demo disk contained unsigned, unencrypted code, which means that arbitrary code could potentially be run. Locking out the demo disk means that crackers can't find out how to run unsigned code on the machine, preventing softmodding

        All code on the demo disc is signed/encrypted - but some of the data files used by the code are not signed (raising the possibility of a buffer overflow exploit).

        Most Xbox code requi
  • ...If you were willing to give up the Xbox 360's ability to play online, perhaps even the ability to play games, period, would the box still be useful? Could one install Linux on the HD and use it as a DVR, for instance? Or is the hardware locked up so tightly that, unless you boot using a special trick each and every time, it's not useful?
  • "If you were willing to give up the Xbox 360's ... ability to play games, would the box still be useful?"

    Why should it be? It has *3* 3.2 ghz cores and a video card worth about twice as much as the $300 console itself.

    If people could buy this system for the hardware and never play games, M$ would lose a ton of money. They lose money on the hardware and make it back on each game sold.

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