Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
PlayStation (Games) Programming IT Technology Your Rights Online

PS3 Developer Fired For Comments 131

Posted by Zonk
from the unfortunate dept.
Next Generation reports on the unfortunate fallout from one PS3 developer's unflattering comments. Early in January, a developer made comments on his feelings regarding the Xbox 360 and its power/design ease vs. the PS3. Thanks to widespread internet reaction, he has been fired from his development position. From the article: "I can't believe how out of control everything got ... It's absolutely absurd how the Internet can take something relatively harmless and turn it into something so insane... Did I knowingly break NDA? I absolutely did not. I would never do that and I would never want to hurt Sony Online. Did I dance in the grey area by even opening my mouth? Yes I did and I was fired for it. So I guess the new rule for me is, don't ever say anything at all about anything. Ever...ever."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

PS3 Developer Fired For Comments

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:28PM (#14629931)
    ...and I think our product is a pain to use"

    Just what the hell was he expecting would happen? They'd give him a reward for breaking ranks and giving his subjective views about Sony's PS3?

    Good luck finding a new job Asshat.
    • The guy's middle name must be "Duh."
    • by XenoRyet (824514) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @06:43PM (#14630600)
      He very clearly stated that he does not like, and is not committed to his (formerly) current project. He also clearly stated that he dislikes the platform he's working on, as well as stating that he thinks the competitor's platform is better.

      I would have let this guy go even for stating these opinions privatly. He obviously really does not want to work for Sony. This guy didn't get fired, he quit.

      • I would have let this guy go even for stating these opinions privatly. He obviously really does not want to work for Sony. This guy didn't get fired, he quit.


        Great idea.


        Step 1. Fire everyone who finds legitemite weakness in your product, partner or customer.


        Step 2. ????


        Step 3. Profit

        • Be fair - this wasn't constructive criticism, or suggestions as to how to improve the product before launch. And even if it had been, the professional/correct forum to express such feelings in in a private meeting, to another employee who can effect change.

          Bitching to another employee who can't do anything is counter-productive and reduces morale (and should be handled with a polite request not to disillusion colleagues), and bitching in a public forum should be slapped for gross indiscretion.

          This was an o
        • legitimate? the guy was an artist, not a programmer.

          how can one artist [not a programmer] give a full say so on the inner workings of the ps3? he works within his package: 3d studio max or whatever. does the product play nice with 3d studio max? if it doesnt... the guy himself stated that he was familiar with other packages. find one that works. if hes echoing complaints from the programmers on his team, thats another beast. [and what i suspect happened] who is to say that his teams' programmers have the be
    • Ever hear of naïveté?

      Chalk this up to a lesson learned the hard way.

      On the other hand, this doesn't leave Sony management covered in glory either.

      First, they called a huge amount of attention to a somewhat amateurish screed that would have fallen into the bitbucket otherwise. In this sense the develper was right. They'd be better off if they publicly laughed it off and said, "We're our own toughest critics. Our platform is the best one there is, and we're not standing still."

      I think a more sutb
  • by THEUBERGEEK (891151) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:28PM (#14629933) Homepage
    in any corporate environment we must all learn to keep our mouths shut. i have lost more than one job for having the "wrong opinion, political view, etc".
    • That may be true.

      But "I think you wife is a fat slag" is not quiet the same thing as this article....
    • This guy didn't lose his job for having the wrong opinion... he lost his job for being public about it. If I was his employer, I'd fire his ass too. You don't dis the products of your employer in public if you want to stay employed. Certainly if there was some safety issue going on, or outright fraud, then there is nothing wrong with whislteblowing. Most employers won't even fire an employee for complaining about something like working conditions or benefits in a public forum. That isn't the case here.
      • You are correct, he deliberately broke an NDA that his job was dependent on him keeping. He did it in a public forum, and he did it to trash his own company's product in favour of a competitors product. He didn't even have a solid reason for saying it was wrose, just "I've heard it's worse". Sony had to fire him. He's only surpised that he got caught and punished.

        Frankly, I doubt many people are going to miss him. If he's an artist and the game he's working on doesn't look good, isn't that his responsi
  • I mean, seriously, the biggest surprise is that it has taken so long.
  • So I guess the new rule for me is, don't ever say anything at all about anything. Ever...ever.

    He acts likes it a threat, but I bet no one really cares if he ever talks again.
    • by st1d (218383)
      Maybe it's just me, but that's the kind of threat my friend's 4 year old son might make. I can't help but agree with you, and to be honest, I wonder if his supposed wonderful new job is actually that great, because if his situation is truly improved, why is he still complaining?
  • by RobertB-DC (622190) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:30PM (#14629954) Homepage Journal
    So I guess the new rule for me is, don't ever say anything at all about anything. Ever...ever.

    Seriously, welcome to the Real World. In college, perhaps, you were encouraged to speak your mind and be free like a little birdie. Big difference: you *paid* to go to college. Within limits, you could do what you want. Things are different when you're the one receiving the money. Within limits, you have to do what *they* want.

    Or to misapply the meme: In college, you owned a Sony. In Corporate [America|Japan], SONY own YOU!
    • which would mean he learned a different lesson "in college" than i did, 'cause i got fired from an on-campus job when i "statee my heartfelt and sincere opinion, backed up with factual evidence" (translation: opened my big mouth) to the wrong person...
    • Jesus, if he wanted to say stuff like that about HIS COMPANY, he had an option: STAY ANONYMOUS.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      This is true, but it also depends on the envirnment. In Corporate America, yea. Shut up, put your head down and get to work. In the Small Business Market, this is a different story.

      I started working for a startup WISP, and was on the front-lines designing, engineering, building, and installing the network. Being in that position, I knew a HELL of LOT MORE than the owner about what was and wasn't going to work. It also helped that my co-worker saw eye to eye on the wireless network implementation, but the po
    • You are taking the company is evil stuff to seriously. When you work at a company you ARE the company. The company is the hand that feeds you... and you shouldn't bite it. Better company profits means more chance of you getting a raise or even a profit bonus. If you think their products sucks (or that they are evil) you shouldn't be working for it at first place.
  • by qbwiz (87077) * <john&baumanfamily,com> on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:30PM (#14629957) Homepage
    Who would have expected that an employee of a company who goes out of his way to publicly badmouth his company's products would be fired? I was expecting Sony to give him a bonus for all the extra sales he's going to bring in.
  • by TubeSteak (669689) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:31PM (#14629964) Journal
    Now in my opinion it doesn't matter how good the PS3 is. If the XBOX 360 is better, then it doesn't really matter how the cell processors work or how good they say it is. Realistically one of them will be better over all. Now I've spoken with people who are on the technical side of the PS3. I've also talked with people on the technical side of the XBOX 360. The consistent comment I am hearing from people on my end is, "The XBOX 360 is better". They are saying that it is capable of just doing more. (shrugs) Now take that for what its worth. If you watch all the videos on the PS3 they will say how much more powerful it is than the XBOX and vice versa. Im just telling you what I am hearing. They proceeded to go into a lot of technical info that I don't understand. So I just nod.
    Then he hits us with this firing worthy blurb
    The game that we are creating for a launch title is a "just get it out" title in my opinion. It doesn't look next generation. I don't see how anyone could debate otherwise. It looks good. But it looks good for a game that has come out in the last couple years or so. I mean we are talking about a box that will be with us for the next 5+ years! In 5 years will the games we are making today look good? The only way for that to be possible is if the new games coming out for the PS3 are drastically improved. So good that they can stand the test of time until the next system comes out. We've all seen Gears of War for the xbox 360. If that even looks half as good when it comes out then I'll be floored! The game we are making isn't even in the same league as Gears of War. In fact there are many current games out that look just as good and are using the exact same specs. So, on our end we are either not pushing the bar or were just trying to "get a title out". To be fair, this is a business. Sometimes you have to treat it as a business and not make the best title you can.
    He's trashing the game he's working on. What boss would put up with that?
    • If that bozo couldn't guess that what he said violated an NDA then he's a 'tard that deserves to be fired. I mean, that's just basic common sense there.
    • They proceeded to go into a lot of technical info that I don't understand.

      Hmmmm... somehow his X360 > PS3 claims don't hold much water...
    • "I've also talked with people on the technical side of the XBOX 360."

      That comment sparked a big question in my head right away. Do this guy have much contacts in Microsoft and if so, why? I would assume its not that smart talking to the opposite side about your own products capabilities and release dates and other sensetive information. My tinfoil is getting worn out but somehow i get the fealing something is wrong with this picture. I have a hard time imaging an engineer who have put enormous amounts of ti
      • Conferences, classes, conventions, etc. He could even simply have personal friends who went to work for someone else. It's not that unusual for employees of competitors to talk to each other. Unless he actually revealed proprietary information, there wouldn't even be anything wrong with applying for a job at a competitor while still employed.
    • Would you buy a game knowing that its own developer doesn't believe in ?
    • He's trashing the game he's working on. What boss would put up with that?

      The kind of boss that is open to negative opinions -- a rare, but very powerful beast.
      • '' He's trashing the game he's working on. What boss would put up with that?

        The kind of boss that is open to negative opinions -- a rare, but very powerful beast. ''

        When you look at your companies products, you have to realise: It is not your job to praise them or to damn them (in public), that is what you have marketing people for. They can take anything, and talk it up to be the best invention since sliced bread. Your competitor's marketing people can do the same thing.

        Often you compare your view of your
        • When you look at your companies products, you have to realise: It is not your job to praise them or to damn them (in public), that is what you have marketing people for. They can take anything, and talk it up to be the best invention since sliced bread. Your competitor's marketing people can do the same thing.

          That's like saying that it's not the job of the parents to damn or praise their own kids, because the neighbors can do the same thing.

          It's much better to not only allow, but rather, to encourage intern
      • > The kind of boss that is open to negative opinions --
        > a rare, but very powerful beast.

        A boss that will listen to your negative opinions when you bring them to him is indeed a powerful (and, alas, rarer than they should be) beast. A boss that will put up with you *publicly trashing your own project to the world*, is, uh, no. They don't do that. Especially when it's a consumer product that will survive or fail on how it is perceived by the public.

        Chris Mattern
        • Agreed. My theory is that people don't just go and willy nilly post stuff on their blogs like that. My guess is that the person felt like no one cared and no one wanted to listen, and consequently wanted to blow off some steam.

          Maybe just some internal listening and acknowledging would have kept this kind of opinion from hitting the web.

          I think, generally, while people are selfish and greedy, they are not malicious. So when something happens that appears malicious, it's most likely because something else
  • by giblfiz (125533) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:32PM (#14629979)
    Though as it points out in the article, he took the post that got him fired down, and will never be putting it back up.

    To avoid /.ing him harder (he has allready been dugg) I'm going to link to a google cache ...

    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:jgeFRxdfvuIJ: weblogs.asp.net/josh.robinson/+josh+robinson&hl=en &lr=&strip=1 [google.com]
  • Great Rule (Score:4, Funny)

    by ImaLamer (260199) <john.lamarNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:32PM (#14629984) Homepage Journal
    So I guess the new rule for me is, don't ever say anything at all about anything. Ever...ever.

    I found this rule to work best at home and at work. The less you talk, the less trouble you get yourself into.
  • by ursabear (818651) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:33PM (#14629994) Homepage Journal
    Here in North Carolina, we work in a "work at will" state. This means that you can quit or be fired without ANY reason, other than reasons covered by discrimination precedence.

    It is a tragedy to lose one's job, no doubt. I would wish joblessness on no-one. However, one must always converse about one's product in a very careful way - always think of oneself as a public representative of the company. It is generally best to preserve the interests of one's company. Comments made on the internet are nearly intractable, and will generally find their way to unexpected places.
    • Well I do think publically badmouthing your company is grounds to be fired for. Whether or not it is "at will" The guy is a moron, and he did something a 16 year old is smart enough not to do.
      • 'At Will' is a two-way thing. Either the employee or the employer have the right to terminate employment at any time, for any reason.

        The employer doesn't need a reason to fire him. They can simply say "We no longer require your services" and show him the door and there's nothing he can do about it.
        • We have that here too... of course I had one idiot boss who interpreted that as: "I can tell you to leave at anytime but you have to give me atleast 2 months notice" "have to" as in expected to but what was he gonna do about it type of thing of course he is also a guy that would go around saying he wants to fire half of his employees (when in reality he should have been beaten with a sack of doorknobs to get the stupid out)
    • by Just Some Guy (3352) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:54PM (#14630205) Homepage Journal
      It is a tragedy to lose one's job, no doubt.

      Not in this case. I think the correct word for costing your company more money and good will then you're worth, resulting in a firing, is "example".

      Losing your job because your office building burned down and your employer doesn't want to rebuild is tragic. Losing your job because you don't have the common sense God gives a dog is just plain stupid and not really something worth pitying.

      What's worse is that he doesn't sound like he learned a single thing from the episode.

      • Losing your job because you don't have the common sense God gives a dog is just plain stupid and not really something worth pitying.

        Interesting analogy. I guess that means that we're all dogs to our herd/clan/mob bosses?

        • I guess that means that we're all dogs to our herd/clan/mob bosses?

          First, don't work too hard to build a local idiom into a full-blown analogy. Second, yeah, pretty much.

          Any man who believes that freedom of speech places no responsibility on the speaker should try telling their wife or girlfriend that she has a fat butt. Before you do, though, remember that the jury probably won't convict her, regardless of whether you're expected to make a full recovery.

    • I love how they phrase this... "work at will" or in other states "right to work" - as if the law was intended to help workers... I guess they figured the name "fire at will" is better reserved for their laws on gun policy.
    • Oh yes, the former confederacy, where because they industrialized late, the robber barons (spiritual successors to the plantation owners) were able to write labor law to favor themselves.

      It's not "Right to Work" it's "Right to fire" or "Keep them yankee unions out"

      • Not giving *any* reason when firing sounds like "Right to discriminate".

        It's hard to prove that the boss fired you because you were Black when they gave no reason at all...
  • by Concern (819622) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:36PM (#14630020) Journal
    I've worked in the industry. Yeah, you would definitely get fired for that. No question.

    There isn't really that much of a "gray area." They give you an NDA that basically just says "SHUT THE FUCK UP." And usually when they give it to you, they narrate that bit for you too. You really aren't supposed to talk about anything to do with the job, ever, ever.

    There are few things in the business more secrecy intensive than a platform launch like this.

    The guy is a big idiot for thinking he could write this and keep his job, without doing a damn good job of remaining anonymous. For that matter, he's just kind of uninformed; this is a 3D artist who obviously doesn't understand much about the hardware or the engines or the development cycle of either, in general....

    OK, you got your 15 seconds of fame. Bye.
    • For that matter, he's just kind of uninformed; this is a 3D artist who obviously doesn't understand much about the hardware or the engines or the development cycle of either, in general....

      Heh heh, the post right below yours links to an interview the guy did.

      How do you respond to critics around the web who say that, as a 3D artist, you're not qualified to make a technical judgment about the PS3 development?

      You know the internet/forums and blogs are a strange place. If I went online right now and said the s

      • Heh. The guy is funny. But notice, I said "this is a 3D artist who obviously doesn't understand...

        In other words, I don't think all 3D artists would be unqualified to comment, as this question seems to imply. Just this particular 3D artist. It's more likely you'd get some more informed commentary from a developer or a hardware engineer, and the fact that he's not already should color your expectations a little from the outset, but... let me put it this way:

        I've worked with a lot of 3D artists, and it's a to
    • I work in the industry, and plan on doing so for the rest of my life.

      But I do still love games. It's not a job, it's a passion. It's also a tough dichotomy. The people most likely to hold strong opinions are the ones most likely to work in the industry. And the industry is small enough that chances are you will have worked with someone or will work with someone at some point.

      For example, I own a DS, but don't own a PSP. I love the industry enough that I want the PSP to do well, so I will talk about its
      • Not really apropos of this guy or anything covered under NDAs, but yeah, I know what you mean. Even outside the games business itself I've been in really excruciating positions, working for big companies whose policies I despised, for instance.

        I usually cope through a combination of anonymity, discretion, and just talking and daring them to do something. There have been a few times (not in the game industry, but with other big corporations) where I basically wanted to get fired for my opinion, and ended up
  • Here's an interview with him about the whole thing:
    http://www.ps3week.com/blogs/ps3week.php?title=tit le_6&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 [ps3week.com]

    So I'm very fortunate to have all the opportunities I've had. I had four or five job offers the same week I was let go. Ultimately I'll be making even more money, I'll have a better title at the end of my name and I'll be very near the beach. So it's a bit hard to complain I suppose.

    And yes, I'm karmawhoring.

  • by WormholeFiend (674934) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:40PM (#14630067)
    I'd try to land a dual career at Apple and Thinksecret

    seems right up his alley
  • This guy mentions (or at least implies) that his company's title doesn't take full advantage of the PS3 capabilities. My question is, how many launch titles do?

    Note that I am not asking this rhetorically, just speaking from my own experience. I am only familiar with one console's launch titles (PS2), and I don't remember them being that spectacular. Take Dark Cloud (I think the first PS2 game I played): sure it was better than PSX graphics, but later titles for the system were much better (even DC2 looked

    • Well DOA 3 and Soul Calibur both looked damn good even compared to games released late in their respective consoles' lives (however short-lived they may have been).
  • by Threni (635302) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:44PM (#14630111)
    Not really. Just assume that what you type, wearing your pyjamas in your bedroom at 2:16 am after you've smoked a spliff and drunk some whisky is going straight to your boss/parents/partner.

  • First that law student who was shocked, shocked!, that an IP firm would not want a lawyer on staff who is against IP (and who advocates breaking the law when you don't agree with it). Now we have a developer who's flabbergasted, flabbergasted!, that an employer would fire an employee for publicly dissing its product.

    Next up: a real estate agent is amazed, amazed!, when he loses a client after telling potential buyers "This is house is OK, but I wouldn't want to live here."
    • I've got a submission to this category:
      When I was working at a supermarket while schooling, I got sick of the job and started mentioning the potential for faeces to be smeared all over the necrotic decomposing flesh that customers were buying...

      And thanks to Australia's "unfair dismissal" laws that were in effect at the time, I got to do it twice more before they could get rid of me.


      I like to think that I saved a cow or two during that week. (If only because the graphicness of my comments would have s
      • Man, you're making me hungry AND making me decide between chicken or beef. Aw hell, I'll just eat both. Chicken & beef fajitas, here I come!
      • White, commercial cornish cross chickens are grown in big buildings. They live in/on their shit for 6-8 weeks. Doesn't matter if the chicken is going to KFC or to your grocery store. Fundamentally not very different at all. Unless you *KNOW* where the chicken you eat is coming from, despite whatever advertisements are on the packaging, you should assume that all of it, even that high-priced "free range" organic chicken is raised the same way.

        At their designated day to meat their destiny, they're loaded up o
  • by Song for the Deaf (608030) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @05:48PM (#14630148)

    This has happened to me several times...where I've deleted a relationship, business or otherwise, by being brutally honest about it. The truth is that I always, deep down, wanted the relationship/job to end because I couldn't stand my internal bullshit meter going off every three seconds. Of course the opposite is also true, anything I truly want to be a part of will be afforded all maner of clemency.

    Maybe this guy just knew that coming up with games for this thing was going to be an ordeal and his subconscious pre-empted him.

    Then again, maybe this guy got fired because he is simply a classic dumbass.

    Either way, you're now free to go make those soon-to-be-classic-Xbox-360-games now, former Sony developer guy.

  • by z0idberg (888892) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @06:01PM (#14630269)
    no..wait...that was the last thing I will ever say.

    no..wait..that was.

    dammit.

    I will never, ever say anything about anything ever. starting from.....now
  • by aminorex (141494) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @06:35PM (#14630540) Homepage Journal
    Specifically, don't *ever* work for Sony.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Making comments that could potentially steal food out of your own mouth, and the mouths of your colleagues, is just stupid. He even admits to "dancing in the grey area." He fully deserved what he got.

    I absolutely doubt this had anything to do with Sony being a big old baddy and this guy was just an innocent blabbermouth surrounded by fools on the internet blowing things out of proportion. To cite myself as an example, I work at a non-profit organization. We receive donations, grants, and contracts based
  • the guy was fired for: a) showing a horrible lack of judgement in deciding to post all that in a public location b) disloyalty toward not only his NDA, but his company's product. his comments are hardly flattering toward something his own team is developing. Work as a pastry chef assistant and go tell potential customers about how much the pastries there suck. work as an editor and write a piece about how bad your paper's reporters are. this isn't news. you'd be fired for this in any other mass-market
    • Neither. It was stupidity that he pasted the information with reference to his real identity. Any self-respecting developer/artist knows that if you are going to diss the product that your company makes then you do so from an anonymous stance (or at least a pseudonym.). Karem
  • Josh's comments are so mild that Sony has to be insane -- or very VERY scared about the problems with the PS3 -- to get upset over anything he said. Maybe they've been listening to their music too much lately and it has rootkit-ed their minds.

    It's also interesting how grateful he is that their upper management remembers the lowly artist's names. Perhaps he doesn't realize how much harder it is to replace good artists and management drones. I say that as a Maya 3D user myself, and not nearly as talented

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Should he have kept his mouth shut? Yes.

    Is he right about the lack of quality in games coming out for the PS3 compared to the Xbox 360? Yes.

    Should his bosses have listened to him and attempted to improve the quality of the product they were working on? Yes.

    Did they listen to him? No.

    Are the games still going to be shit? Yes.

    Did they fire him cause he revealed their incompetance? Yes.

    Did he deserve it? Yup.

    Do his managers deserve to be fired for hiring people who are producing crap and are going to ruin Sony
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Should his bosses have listened to him and attempted to improve the quality of the product they were working on? Yes.

      He didn't offer any specifics of what was wrong though. His technical issues were ones where his workmates "proceeded to go into a lot of technical info that I don't understand".

      There's not even any indication that he went to his bosses with any sort of issues or concerns. Where I work they would fire my ass if I went public with a rant saying my companies product sucked. That just has to
  • by MarksManB (521932)
    My ex-Marine instructors at the Law Enforcement Academy always said, "Remember the 11th Commandment: Thy shall keep thy mouth SHUT!"
  • he's got a good shot at being picked up by Microsoft now though.
  • So I guess the new rule for me is, don't ever say anything at all about anything. Ever...ever."

    Is it just me or does that sound like a corny dialog from a reallly emo character in a c grade movie....?
  • OK, for whatever reason, he criticised PS3. If you RTFA, the stuff he mentions sound pretty well founded. By firing him, he was made orders of magnitude famous and many more people are going to read him saying "The XBOX 360 is better". From a developer who was fired for his comments. They gave him credibility, the situation is similar to making a martyr out of an organization's leader by assassinating him. In the long run, it might well turn back on them. just think about Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.
  • The first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club.
  • Read the original article. Makes the PS3 sound like shit and that it's doomed to fail before it arrives.

    Better yet, he repeats heresay that he doesn't understand, as to why the 360 is better.

    If it were my decision, I'd fire him and kick him in the ass on the way out.
  • Dude, you released information online regarding the status, or perceived status, of the PS3 system's state of build. You did this as a person with inside information. That violates your NDA.

    Here's another snippet of the guy's post that isn't neutral:

    "Now in my opinion it doesn't matter how good the PS3 is. If the XBOX 360 is better, then it doesn't really matter how the cell processors work or how good they say it is."

    So, as an insider and as someone who worked on the PS3 content, you are making a statement
  • This is about what you'd expect for a new non-Von Neumann architecture. It's going to take a while to figure out what to do with an array of cell processors. This stuff isn't easy. Figuring out how to split things up, parallelize them, and deal with the limitations on intercommunication is hard.

    The PS2 had many of the same problems. In the PS2, most of the processing power is in the vector units; the "main CPU" is relatively weak. It took about a year for developers to figure out how to push more of t

It is the quality rather than the quantity that matters. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4 B.C. - A.D. 65)

Working...