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Blizzard Techs Talk Login Times, Not Gay Rights 632

Posted by Zonk from the so-who-can-talk-about-it? dept.
Shane Dabiri and John Lagrave took an interview with Eurogamer, and used the opportunity to talk about the login problems that have been plaguing World of Warcraft since Christmas. As techs, they're not there to talk about the ongoing discussion involving Gay rights in their game world. Kotaku, however, is not under any kind of restriction, and reports on legal movement against the company by Lambda Legal. The group is organized around procuring civil rights for people in the GLBT community, and sent a strongly worded letter to Blizzard's legal team. From that letter: "We are very concerned that Blizzard's policy, as expressed in the foregoing statement, discriminates against LGBT gamers. Although preventing harassment is an admirable goal, a requirement that LGBT people remain invisible and silent is not an acceptable means of reaching that goal." Blizzard has already removed the warning from the player in question, saying that it was an 'unfortunate interpretation' of their EULA.
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Blizzard Techs Talk Login Times, Not Gay Rights More

Blizzard Techs Talk Login Times, Not Gay Rights

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  • Argh! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @12:33PM (#14660356)
    Keep your goddamn politics out of my game. I play to escape reality dammit...

    Nuff said.

    • Re:Argh! (Score:2, Insightful)

      by east coast ( 590680 )
      Keep your goddamn politics out of my game. I play to escape reality dammit...

      Too bad I don't have mod points to mod this insightful.

      After all, how does sexuality come into play on WoW? This shouldn't even be an issue and for those who need a MMORPG as an outlet for sexual expression there isn't much to be said in their favor.

      Get over yourselves and play the game, don't turn it into some political stomping ground.

      • Re:Argh! (Score:2, Insightful)

        by xnderxnder ( 626189 )
        "After all, how does sexuality come into play on WoW? This shouldn't even be an issue and for those who need a MMORPG as an outlet for sexual expression there isn't much to be said in their favor."

        So, all the fuck-tards wailing "fag" as an insult are going to disappear? Ditto the hateful "Don't get the AIDS!" bits when plague makes the rounds?

        Existing is not a "sexual expression." GLBT people grouping together to play WoW in a better environment (vis a vis Guild chatter, etc) is not like sodomizing each o

        • Re:Argh! (Score:2, Insightful)

          by flyinwhitey ( 928430 )
          "So, all the fuck-tards wailing "fag" as an insult are going to disappear? Ditto the hateful "Don't get the AIDS!" bits when plague makes the rounds?"

          News flash, you don't have a right to avoid being offended, or even avoid being called names.

          And it's funny how you disparage the "fuck-tards" for name calling. I have to assume that while you seem open to homosexuality, you're a raging bigot when it comes to mental disability.

          Self-hatred can be a bitch.

        • Re:Argh! (Score:5, Interesting)

          by NemosomeN ( 670035 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:35PM (#14660878) Journal
          It should be noted that a guild of tennis players or a guild of Buffy fans would not be tolerated, either. (Note Giant Communist Robots being forbidden). Any group with real-world ties is frowned upon.

      • Re:Argh! (Score:5, Funny)

        by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:15PM (#14660690) Homepage Journal
        Let's face it, for many gamers, this is about all the sexuality they're going to encounter on a regular basis...

      • Re:Argh! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by _Sprocket_ ( 42527 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:15PM (#14660693)
        After all, how does sexuality come into play on WoW? This shouldn't even be an issue and for those who need a MMORPG as an outlet for sexual expression there isn't much to be said in their favor.

        Have you ever seen a female Night Elf dance (or many other races for that matter)? Sexuality is coded in to the game. And, of course, given the nature of the average audience... players will push what can be done with those animations.

        But it doesn't have to be so purile. Ever hear of in-game weddings? Any time RP-oriented players get together, a wedding is bound to happen and WoW is no exception. Now while marriage isn't all about sex, sexuality is certainly a part of it. And in fact, the whole recent hullabaloo seems to have stemmed from a in-game same-sex marriage.

        Sexuality is a part of us - it's hard-coded in to our being. It is little wonder that in any environment with some degree of freedom, sexuality surfaces. And that's even in environments that don't code it in - unlike WoW.

        One last point - I do tend to agree to a certain extent. I'm not very interested in sexuality in game. Some joker with a half-naked dancing Night Elf on a mailbox is a sure sight of a immature player. And I've never felt any inclination to be part of an in-game wedding (or get involved with anyone's romantic tryst RP). But at the same time, I do understand that some players will be inclined to do these things even if I choose not to play along.
    • Yeah, I just wish they hadn't appealed to the MMORPG poopsock crowd with "virtual marriages". Keep the awkward sexuality and attached politics out of a simple, fun, and dumb game, for the love of god.

    • Re:Argh! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by taskforce ( 866056 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @12:57PM (#14660515) Homepage
      That's the problem. Gay people play the game to escape reality as well... Gay Rights shouldn't be politics, there is no issue, unless you question people's personal freedoms to make their own choices which have no effect on other people.

      The Religious Right has made this a political issue, when in fact it is not even an issue.

      • Re:Argh! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by theStorminMormon ( 883615 )
        The Religious Right has made this a political issue, when in fact it is not even an issue.

        This is demonstrably false. The Religious Right is a powerful force but the fact is that a lot of otherwise non-religious, modertate people in this country are not comfortable with the idea of gay-marriage. Take the 2004 presidential election as your evidence. I think it was 17 states that had ammendments to ban same-sex marriage on the ballot. All 17 of those states voted in favor of the ban - frequently by overwh

        • Re:Argh! (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Surt ( 22457 )
          You have the combined weight of 1,000's of years of history and practically every major world religion on one side and you have progressives on the other.

          I know which side of that I want to be on. The side without the thousand years of religious wars, oppression, torture, and persecution. But I guess it's just a sad fact there are still people who like the other side.

        • Re:Argh! (Score:4, Insightful)

          by millennial ( 830897 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @06:12PM (#14663971) Journal
          You have the combined weight of 1,000's of years of history and practically every major world religion on one side and you have progressives on the other.

          Which is exactly the point. You cannot base current policy off of traditions from 2000 years ago, and religions are afraid of change because change provides the possibility that the religion is wrong. Fundamentalist religions in America are seen as grudging, stubborn, out-of-date, out-of-touch institutions, because they refuse to adapt (like every other institution has). And no, marriage and the family are not religious institutions - otherwise, atheists wouldn't marry or have children.

    • Re:Argh! (Score:2, Insightful)

      by lbrandy ( 923907 )
      You realize that somewhere, right now, there is a lawyer at blizzard having a meeting with a bunch of people discussing the possible legal ramifications of this. You know who is paying for those man hours? The politics are in your game, and you are paying for it. The backlash if this goes much further is going to be horrible.
    • ...the issue at hand is for most of the people in question as much a fantasy and escape from reality as slaughtering orcs.

    • Re:Argh! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by evilned ( 146392 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:53PM (#14661052) Homepage
      Then kick the christian guilds out too. I don't want their religion in the game either. Same if an Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Flying Spaghetti Monster guild starts advertising too. Till then, this was just plain a dumb move by Blizzard.

    • Re:Argh! (Score:2, Insightful)

      by negative3 ( 836451 )
      Nice combo - funny yet insightful. I agree. from TFA: "...inform all of Blizzard's system administrators that they are not to discipline any players for mentioning or discussing sexual orientation or gender identity in a non-insulting fashion." Wouldn't this itself cause further problems? The system of disallowing all talk that revolves around certain topics is much easier than having the sysadmins selectively deciding who get to talk about what. Who talks about being gay or not in an online game anyw

  • re: legal action (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Wizardry Dragon ( 952618 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @12:43PM (#14660424) Homepage Journal
    The sharks smelled blood in the water eh?

    What players do in their own private areas (houses, guild halls, whatever) is their own business, but in public areas, Blizzard has the full authority to define their own rules; it is, after all their own sandbox. I don't agree with Blizzard's decision, myself, but they have full authority and right to enforce whatever policies they want on -private- services.

    ~ Wizardry Dragon

    • Re: legal action (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Drachemorder ( 549870 ) <brandon&christiangaming,org> on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @12:56PM (#14660509) Homepage
      Exactly. I think if one wants to truly be "tolerant" then one must also tolerate other people's intolerance. The fact is that everyone is intolerant of something; the people who make "tolerance" their biggest issue are often the very same people who seek to suppress those who don't agree with their idea of tolerance.

    • Re: legal action (Score:5, Insightful)

      by GreyyGuy ( 91753 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @12:58PM (#14660524)
      So they can setup a policy that every avatar has to look like a naked 11 year old and it is perfectly legal?

      Of course not. They have to abide by laws, if they are behind closed doors or not. And the fact that they are a private service doesn't affect that. They can't say no women are allowed to play. They can't discriminate on the basis of religion. And they can't say you are not allowed to say a guild is GLBT friendly because it might offend people when the game's chat has the word "fag" show up more then any other single word.

      In fact, based on some things I've read, Blizzard might even be in violation of their own agreement by restricting a GLBT friendly guild when other religious guilds actively promote themselves as such. Both could easily attract people wanting to cause problems, yet only one is warned.

      • So they can setup a policy that every avatar has to look like a naked 11 year old and it is perfectly legal?

        Yes, it would be legal, technically. I think the law that would make it illegal was repealed a few years back (because it made the movie "American Pie" illegal, amongst other things.)

        Look, one guy got a warning for advertising a GBLT-friendly guild in general chat. Blizzard has since apologized, and said that their no-sex-talk rule shouldn't have applied in that case. Don't hyperventilate.

        And, by

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re: legal action (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Alcilbiades ( 859596 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:49PM (#14661007)

        Any restaurant can retain the right to refuse service to anyone. Usually it is posted in big bold letters in the entrance. However, YOUR comment takes the argument way out of context. Blizzard doesn't refuse anything to homosexuals. They do require that guilds not post Political/sexual/non-game/etc issues for recruitment on their general forums pages or in game spam in general chat.

        Honestly how god damned hard is this to understand. Blizzard won't allow you to recruit in general chat based on being a republican, stripper, democrat, straight guys only, ETC. Their opinion has been if it is non game related keep it inside your guild halls aka your own forum. Blizzard has even stated it is fine for guilds to recruit based off of previous things on Blizzards RECRUITMENT forum but not on the general forum.

        Personally I think it was a group of disgruntled homosexual gamers that wanted attention so they broke the rules and then claimed it was blizzard's fault. It wasn't the only reason this is still in the news is because it is easier to blame blizzard than it is the minority. Sure they are a minority but they still broke the rules. I personally hope blizzard bans the people who posted the recruitment based off of sexual orientation in the general forum. It is out of place an unwanted. If I want to find a guild I can go to the recruitment forum.


      • And if they set up a restaurant on their private property, they'd be able to refuse service to blacks?
        Uhh... no one is trying to refuse service to anyone that's gay here, so this analogy is just plain terrible.

        If you want an analogy, I'd compare it to an organized group of people walking around a mall carrying banners for (insert controversial subject here). WoW really has nothing to do with homosexuality. Blizzard just doesn't want to start up that kind of controversy in the game, probbably because they
      • Personally I would like Blizzard to silence all groups and make people actually play the game and a role they don't play in life. Like another poster said, I play to escape reality (I don't play WoW anymore, but still). I don't want some turd on his soapbox shouting about the return of The J Man. Why do people have to drag their lives into everything. I don't want to associate with crusaders in the game, I want to be involved in a different reality. Kick them all out is what I say.
    • they have full authority and right to enforce whatever policies they want on -private- services.

      What, kind of like enforcing a Blacks only section on a private bus service? I don't think so.

    • So if Blizzard were to decide tomorrow that from now on, only white males that can confirm they're not of Jewish descent were allowed in the game anymore, you'd agree with that, too?

      Obviously, Blizzard has the right to make some rules, but obviously, they can't do just *anything* they want to, either; in particular, it may well be they can't legally discriminate against certain groups (I'm not familiar enough with anti-discrimination laws to say whether that's the case, but I'd be surprised if they could).

      W

  • Well, I'm not surprised (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    That interview was about as content-rich as a blank sheet of paper. That corporate speech is nothing but disappointing, indicative of an attempt to avoid committment and responsibility, to avoid offense, not by being considerate, but by being nothing.

    As far as it goes, it doesn't go very far.

  • Where's the outrage? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:02PM (#14660569)
    Final Fantasy XI has full in-game marriage, complete with wedding dress, rings, and a ceremony. However, Final Fantasy XI refuses to allow gay couples to get married.

    And yet, there's been no complaint about this. No one cared. "It's just a fantasy game."

    I guess it's only because WoW is so popular that we're hearing about this in the first place. It's just people purposely trying to raise trouble to get "their issue" into the press. Unfortunately, it's working.
  • We are very concerned that Blizzard's policy, as expressed in the foregoing statement, discriminates against LGBT gamers. Although preventing harassment is an admirable goal, a requirement that LGBT people remain invisible and silent is not an acceptable means of reaching that goal.

    And since when does one have the right to play LBBT characters in a role playing game for heaven's sake? If you don't like the rules, then leave. Not liking the rules is not an excuse for demanding that anyone else has to cha

    • Re:Blizzard was already trying to do the Right Thi (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Pendersempai ( 625351 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:46PM (#14660984)
      And since when does one have the right to play LBBT characters in a role playing game for heaven's sake?

      One doesn't, and this isn't what these players sought. They sought a group of players who don't spew sexuality invective like it's punctuation. Which, I have to say, seems entirely reasonable to me.

    • And since when does one have the right to play LBBT characters in a role playing game for heaven's sake?

      Why would you not have the right to play a LGBT character? My husband and I played DaoC for a while, and he played a female character, as did I. We also played our characters as lovers. By your logic that would not be allowed at all. It's a game that reflects reality. In reality the gay and lesbian population hovers around 11% to 14% in every culture. It exists as a normal part of the range of human be

  • Your rights stop where mine start (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Jakuta ( 643082 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:05PM (#14660593)
    I am not MMORGing to drag this crap into my fantasy world. Why do people need to drag real life into fantasy relaxation? There are no ways in which to have "straight" relationships in the game unless it's role-played. So role-play the relationships... if a younger player or an insensitive player bashes you, go after the player through the abuse channel or game masters... Even as a "straight" person, if I were to see "Prince Valliant" and "Prince Charming" getting married on my server, I wouldn't really care, except to ask if they need anything tailored like their Tux's or cooked for the reception but after that what they do with each other is their own business. Same for "Snow White" and "Cinderella" doing the social interaction thing. Now for guilds that are restrictive based on real world associations, I am the Guild Leader for a Guild in WoW and it's based "primarily" on IRL friends that are all Bouncers in the various Detroit night clubs. We have other members but it was started based on location and profession. I don't agree with groups that include color, creed, religion, sex, sexual preference... think about all the things that are violations of the harassment policies at your work. I don't want to be exposed to all that while trying to relax and slaughter things. I wanna be brain dead and happy. Please leave real life issues at the door with your street clothes. I wanna don my armour and wreak havoc on the Murlock population without wondering what kind of socio/economic/racial overtones may be interpreted in the aftermath.

    • Re:Your rights stop where mine start (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Pendersempai ( 625351 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:49PM (#14661010)
      Right... but the reality is that people in WoW derogatorily use "gay" and "fag" all the time in the game.

      Suppose instead people shouted things like "nigger" when something didn't go their way... that they made frequent supportive allusions to the KKK... that when someone did something they didn't like, they called him a "darky"...

      Would it be unreasonable for a group of black players to try to organize a black-friendly group to play with so they wouldn't have to listen to rampant bigotry continually? Or would you protest this as just bringing real-life politics into your game?

    • Merlockocaust (Score:4, Funny)

      by TiggertheMad ( 556308 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @01:54PM (#14661064) Journal
      I wanna don my armour and wreak havoc on the Murlock population without wondering what kind of socio/economic/racial overtones may be interpreted in the aftermath.

      You insensitive genocidial monster! Merlocks are fish-people too! Have you ever though about their feelings? Have you ever tried to talk to them, rather than just wipe out their villages and roll to see who gets the chest loot? Of course not. Why, it just makes me seeth, I-RRRRRRRAALLLAARALALLALALALALALLALALA!
  • I've already noticed things getting better. Keep in mind that I can only speak for my server and not the game as a whole.

    Sundays used to have massive lag, 1-2 reboots. Mondays were pretty much unplayable with 4-5 reboots a day. People in Ironforge disappearing, mobs not respawning, infinite loot lag, instances in limbo, etc, etc.

    Over the past couple weeks Sundays have usually had one reboot, Mondays are fairly solid albeit a bit laggy. Gives me hope as far as their tech teams are concerned. Hopefully people
  • In the few short years since the advent of multi-user dungeons

    Multi-user dungeons have been around for more than a few short years. Sheesh.

    -
    Somewhere between GPA and MUD lies obsession.

  • Blizzard shuns gay-ness? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by An anonymous Frank ( 559486 ) <frank@harrysto[ ].com ['tle' in gap]> on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @02:30PM (#14661435) Homepage
    (I a male adult of the bisexual persuasion, who recently began playing WoW with my boyfriend, who is gay himself.)

    The virtual world offered (for a fee) to Blizzard's customer base, however removed from reality, is very much populated by real players, (script farmers notwithstanding,) which have a given sexual orientation, whether or not this fact is relevant to the actual game play. In this game, individuals will find all sorts of reasons to relate to each other and/or form guilds, possibly based on real-world geographical proximity, shared/anecdotal game history, stereotypical familiarity or whatever they might see as relevant criteria.

    While playing the game, it didn't take long before I learned about fun things like the "/kiss", "/hug" and other such commands, and I also quickly confirmed that these actions were possible between any players, regardless of perceived gender or race. On the other hand, MSN Messenger's original emoticons assumed that a hug was given by a boy, and returned by a girl.

    Which of these two services may be adding some restrictions of expression, knowingly or not, to its users?

    Now, let us imagine that the next time I play this game, I should decide to form a new guild, or join an existing one, based on a common interest in photography. Which means that as we all wait endless minutes while everyone gets ready for the next raid, we can all chat about something we have in common, photography, something that others around us might be at least mildly interested in, and might even have something to share with the other guild members as well.

    Obviously, if I simply lacked any interest in photography, I'd join some other group, or simply keep marching on my way, because in the end, I am playing this particular game in order to have a little fun, period.

  • STFU...U R a gafyag (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BecomingLumberg ( 949374 ) on Tuesday February 07, 2006 @02:42PM (#14661586)
    As a recovering WoW player, I find it interesting how many players found it interesting that the 'oversexed bimbo elf huntress' they were playing with was in actuality a guy. I should qualify that: The females realized this within at least 5 minutes, in addition to normally recognizing that I did it to get free items, favor, protection, and easy to come by parties. Great is the power of the giggle.

    Occasionally one of the girls would forget to /tell and my cover would be blown in a party, and some male players that were shamefully hitting on me earlier would become enraged and ask for their (quite expensive) items back. Then they would regail me, accusing me of being gay... odd, considering they never objected to my 'girlfriend' coming along (who was indeed Brian, my very awesome, very straight roommate)

    I hardly think that a change of Blizzard's policy is going to fix the social problem that permiates much of nerdom as thick as it does Alabama. Play who you want. On planet Warcraft, homosexuality is discriminated against. That is a role you choose to play or not.

    Speaking of which, would a handsome man like you like to escort me as I try to find my epic?

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