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Games Entertainment

God of War Creator Calls For Games With Soul 73

Posted by Zonk from the tired-of-robot-love dept.
David Jaffe, creator of last year's very popular God of War, made a plea during a talk at the DICE event for developers to create games with soul. From Next Generation's coverage: "He then made clear that the game industry had to adequately compensate those with talent in order to attract them, saying the industry must provide 'financial incentive for more creative people to come join us instead of working with TV and cinema.' Jaffe appeared to debate the issue of the industry's future within himself. 'Maybe it's all bullshit. Some days, I think games can be something else, the next great entertainment media. And then other days, I feel it's just like porn or motion rides, where there's no capacity to reach high emotional levels.'" Update: 02/10 05:44 GMT by Z : More views on Jaffe's talk are available at 1up and Gamespot.
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God of War Creator Calls For Games With Soul More

God of War Creator Calls For Games With Soul

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  • Soul, like decapitating giants with bladed chains kinda soul.

    Violence is golden :D

  • Suggestion (Score:2, Interesting)

    by inter alias ( 947885 )
    Go to weird art shows in the bay area, get the makers of the weirdest pieces to come up with some insane ideas for you. You only need them for 3-4 hours and they probably need the cash :)

    Then take their crazy crazy half-baked concept ideas and make them into a usable story.

  • Aping cinema (Score:3, Interesting)

    by scanner_darkly ( 795083 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @10:51PM (#14684300)
    "Almost every game pitch I hear has to be like a movie," Jaffe said. "Developers come and say, 'It's like a Tarantino movie' or a 'Spielberg picture.' It makes me frustrated, sad, embarrassed and annoyed that we have to look at other media in order to ape them."

    must..resist...King Kong joke...

    Despite corny puns, it's utterly true. Though all art forms have to draw on more established ones at the beginning, (movies have long since stopped drawing much from theatre, though that was painfully true in the beginning,) video games do have to learn to draw from their own strengths. As long as they're the reflection of movies, they'll always look bad.

    That being said, I have a big beef with this article. He's calling for "Games with Soul," eh? Oh yeah? How so? That's a pretty broad statement, there, feller. And whatever Jaffe meant by it, we can't figure out from this article.

    • Re:Aping cinema (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lisandro ( 799651 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @10:57PM (#14684334)
      That being said, I have a big beef with this article. He's calling for "Games with Soul," eh? Oh yeah? How so? That's a pretty broad statement, there, feller. And whatever Jaffe meant by it, we can't figure out from this article.

          I think he meant in the same way good music is the one with soul, regardless the style. The one made with passion and love for what you do. Not the one tailored to sell X copies by a commitee.
          And if it's that, he'd be right. Damn right.

    • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:07PM (#14684389)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • That being said, I have a big beef with this article. He's calling for "Games with Soul," eh? Oh yeah? How so? That's a pretty broad statement, there, feller. And whatever Jaffe meant by it, we can't figure out from this article.

      It's even simpler than everyone else has said. A game with soul is one where the people making it care about the game beyond the potential cash value to their wallets. It's game with quality. To get quality you have to care about the game you are making, not only that but your bo

  • Soul? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 09, 2006 @10:53PM (#14684309)
    I had no idea that 'soul' was a synonym for 'tits.'

  • This is difficult (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I am working on including sole in our next FPS [3drealms.com] However, finding sensible ways to incorporate nocturnal flatfish into the plot is causing delays.

  • Pot calling kettle... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:07PM (#14684384)
    "And then other days, I feel it's just like porn or motion rides, where there's no capacity to reach high emotional levels."

    This is from a guy who made a painfully derivative game chock full of gore and titties. He is getting WAY too much attention from the gaming press lately - probably because Sony keeps buying advertising for God of War.

    • Re:Pot calling kettle... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by PaganRitual ( 551879 ) <<splaga> <at> <internode.on.net>> on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:42PM (#14684636)
      1. derivative != lacking in soul.

      Games can take existing genres and either improve upon them or simply be entertaining in their own right. They dont have to be new ALL the time, otherwise there would be about 20 games in total, ever. 'Games with soul' means a game where you are in awe of the experience the game provides you. Where the controls are so streamlined, the interface so clean and the gameplay so pure that you forget that you are playing a game and just get immersed in the experience, and the game does its best to never knock you out of that feeling. Its a game that, as you play it, you feel as though the game has been made by GAMERS, who would be proud to put their name to this game, and who would love to play their own game, instead of just shovelling crap out the door to meet financial quotas. Personally i think GoW fits that bill. FEAR is another recent example.

      2. I happen to like gore and titties in my games. So sue me.

      • Re:Pot calling kettle... (Score:1, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        2. I happen to like gore and titties in my games. So sue me.

        Dont worry son, we will. - Jack Thompson
      • 'Games with soul' means a game where you are in awe of the experience the game provides you.

        Perhaps I will be mocked for saying this, but I felt that way while recently playing the PC version of Halo. Yeah, it's just a linear-story, console-style shooter, but I love that frickin' game. I may yet reinstall Windows just so I can play it again. Pacing seemed to be the key ingredient that made it so enjoyable.

        Honorable mentions: TIE Fighter, Sentinel Worlds: Future Magic, Baldur's Gate II. All of them had

    • Did you play God of War? Yes it was violent and had the little sex minigame thing near the start, but it was a great game. Not only were the controls great making it easy to control Kratos and make him do exactly what you wanted, there was a story.

      And the story was not a generic "Bob was wronged, Bob went on a rampage". It's not terribly different from that, but the way it was presented was excelent. You really got involved in the story through the fantastic cut-scenes (which had a very cool art style). Mo

  • Heavenly Games? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Kelson ( 129150 ) * on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:09PM (#14684400) Homepage Journal
    OK, here's a terrible thought: A video game tie-in to The Passion of the Christ. And since it would be insensitive for the player to play Jesus, the player takes on the roles of Pilate, Roman guards, etc. It'll be violent enough for the usual FPS crowd, but since it's in service of religion, it must be okay, right?
    • A video game tie-in to The Passion of the Christ....It'll be violent enough for the usual FPS crowd, but since it's in service of religion, it must be okay, right?

      hmmm... so a game where you play around with abusing a self proclaimed messianic figure. You must mean this:

      http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgerag.swf [planetdan.net]

    • Re:Heavenly Games? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Alien54 ( 180860 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @01:29AM (#14685233) Journal
      A video game tie-in to The Passion of the Christ.

      Actually, the game would be something like:

      You have been assigned by the emperor to rule over a far-away province, and to make it managable. Your pay is a cut of the proceeds you send back to empire central. The province is unruly, for the population is a stiff necked people. It is your job to keep the peace, put down rebellions, and eliminate the usual troublemakers. The Emperor is sending you in because it needs more taxes collected for massive expansion projects, and to maintain the borders. Do well, and you'll retire a rich man. Your Name is Pontius Pilate. Good Luck.

    • And since it would be insensitive for the player to play Jesus, the player takes on the roles of Pilate, Roman guards, etc.

      Actually, I find that oddly appealing. At least there's a bit of creativity as work there.

  • Well, there is roleplaying... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by QuantumG ( 50515 ) <qg@biodome.org> on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:26PM (#14684513) Homepage Journal
    If you want to read a vision of hope sometime take a look at Bartle's Designing Virtual Worlds [amazon.com]. He provides deep insight into why people get so obsessed with role playing games - what they get out of it, and why they keep coming back. If you buy into his theories the designer of a role playing game is more a therapist than an entertainer. Of course, most people who play "role playing games" these days don't actually do any role playing as such. They just run around and kill stuff. So there ya go.

  • Required VGCats linkage (Score:3, Funny)

    by PaganRitual ( 551879 ) <<splaga> <at> <internode.on.net>> on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:27PM (#14684522)
    KRATOS AWAY!!! [vgcats.com]

  • Great video games. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ElleyKitten ( 715519 ) <kittensunrise@@@gmail...com> on Thursday February 09, 2006 @11:29PM (#14684533) Journal
    >>Some days, I think games can be something else, the next great entertainment media. And then other days, I feel it's just like porn or motion rides, where there's no capacity to reach high emotional levels.'"

    Video games are the next great entertainment media. And anyone who says games can't reach high emotional levels needs to play Final Fantasy VI. Right now. Go!

    I recently discovered FF6 (yeah, I know, little behind) and it's amazing. I never cry during video games or movies, but this game's got me a couple times.

    Just like movies took time to be recognized as having the potential to be great, video games will as well.

    • Re:Great video games. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bVork ( 772426 )
      Try games from this side of the pond, too. You must play Planescape: Torment. I think it's the best story-focussed RPG ever. Yes, even trouncing Final Fantasy 6.

      What can change the nature of a man? You'll find out if you play the game.
      • "Try games from this side of the pond, too. You must play Planescape: Torment. I think it's the best story-focussed RPG ever. Yes, even trouncing Final Fantasy 6.

        What can change the nature of a man? You'll find out if you play the game."

        I agree it was a good and amazing experience but there were parts that dragged.

        I think the problem with torment was that it was too heavily focused on dialog there wasn't much of a game there and they seemed to be churning out baldurs gates clones by the dozen back then, al
    • I cried once while playing FF6. It was when I went to load my save game and it was gone.
    • I cry many times playing any of the Final Fantasy games. Every time I'm just wanting to get from point A to point B and I'm accosted by hundreds of senseless random encounters that I can't avoid (and musn't avoid because I need to "level up") I start bawling.

      Then I stop playing.

      Fucking Japanese RPGs. Walk, fight, walk, fight, watch 20 minutes of overly saccharine dross that's supposed to evoke a deep "emotional" response (other than derisive laughter?). Give me a break.

      They could just call those games, "S
      • Sorry, already married. I'll friend you though. :)

        What's your favorite FF?
        • *weeping weeping*

          I haven't played all of them, but VI is definitely my favorite. Some of the others come close behind... The original was good in its time. IV was great and probably my second favorite. VII was fun but I think got more praise than it deserved. VIII, IX, and X were fun, but they just failed to keep my interest when I reached the later stages... You know, the "wander around the world and uncover all the 'secret' stuff" stage of things. I've never played X-2 and I'm unsure of what to thin
          • I'm not that far into FF6, but I'm thinking it's going to be my favorite. FF4 & 5 I loved too. FF7 I agree was overrated, though I did like the materia. 8 I hated the battle system, but I like 9 & 10. X-2... ugh. The battle system was fun, but the storyline cheapened X. I like the 12 demo, you should give it a try. I was afraid the real-timeness would make it too different, but it's still very final fantasyish, and I thought it was fun.

            Talk to ya later.
            • Cool, I had heard comments that 12 was like 11 (the online one), which I had played briefly but gave up on pretty quickly... and I *like* MMOs hehe! The thing that's so great about 6, imo, is the storyline and the fact that I actually cared about the characters. That's the big difference for me between 6/4 and all the others. The characters either just didn't grab me emotionally, or they downright annoyed me (*cough*tidus*cough*).

              8's battle system was kind of fun, but horribly broken :). Once you figur
    • I think video games may never break out of their mold personally. They've gone more mainstream but they aren't totally mainstream yet. Not only that but FF6 requires *hours* of time investment compared to 1-2 hour movies (3 hours being the maximum usually). Games require much more time then I think most adults will have available to dedicate to them and this may mean that many *great games* will never get recognized simply due to being enormous time drains for the adult population that works.

      A frequent c
  • Then you'll have all the souls you need. MuHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Seriously, we are almost at the point where we could start living in a virtual world online. If done correctly, it could be beneficial.
    --
    Perhaps someday children will go to school by going online and learning in a virtual classroom.
  • WoW has been doing this for a while. They get you to meet up with a guy at the crossroads at midnight.
  • The Video Game just needs its Pollack, Beatles or Kubrick.

    My guess is the guy in TFA is subconsciously lamenting the fact that HE isn't the prophet of his chosen medium, because anyone with a brain knows that a Great Master is an inevitability.

    Either way he should shut up. God of War was great, OK, we get it. Move on. Games have soul when the game makers have soul. It's easy.

    As far as pitching games like movies: they either are playing the room or don't believe (or understand) the medium. Half Life

    • Personally I thought HL2 was a steaming pile of shit as a game, and pacman or lemmings aced it any day, but what the fuck - I've only being playing games for three decades now, I should have realised that shiny fucking graphics and a half arsed imitation of acting is what I really wanted in games all along.

      Yeah. Woo fucking who.
      • Of some note, here, is that "Half Life" and "HL2" are, you know, not the same game. This is indicated by the fact that they have different names.
      • *Everyone* knows that fps games are 1000 times more important than any other type of game. This is because they are immersive and you get to shoot guns. Christ on a bike, doesn't everyone know this? Don't they teach this at schools after the course on why Ninjas are awesome because they have real ultimate power.
    • > The Video Game just needs its Pollack, Beatles or Kubrick.

      No, the Video Game needs its Cecil B. deMille; it needs the man who can define the medium in its own terms, not the terms of another medium.

      Chris Mattern

  • To get a soul... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Ekarderif ( 941116 ) <[benjamin.feng] [at] [gmail.com]> on Friday February 10, 2006 @12:21AM (#14684871)
    ... you need an Orb of Thesulah (not to be mistaken with a paper weight) and a powerful gypsy or wicca.

  • Another way of saying down w/ flashy graphics? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Parallax Blue ( 836836 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @12:47AM (#14685022)
    I can kind of understand what he's saying, but it seems like he's too vague on his idea. What IS a "game with soul"? I think this is just another way of saying "we need to stop making games that are all about realism but fail to succeed at anything else."
  • I just found a great game. It's free too. http://wesnoth.org/ [wesnoth.org]
  • "Soul" != white fluffy cloud with sparkling twinkles

    He meant, game programmers and creative teams should engage in creative process through other source of inspiration than traditional media we are constantly exposed to.

    He admittedly said he's not without fault. GOW was partly inspired by Raiders of the Lost Ark [imdb.com].

    Personally I think, he's idealist who doesn't like living in a reality... I'll believe his words when I see his next project.

  • I've never played or seen God of War, but I'm already sick of seeing this guy's every utterance reported on ./

    Platitudes are not philosophy; and all the whining in the world doesn't make games today any better.

    • Play it, it's fun. Then you'll see why everyone here at Dotslash likes it.

      Really though, I don't know why David Jaffe is the current Google in terms of Slashdot stories, but GoW sold a lot of copies, and it's a game people paid attention to. Yes, he's saying shit that's been said before, but the only difference is that because of his game's popularity, people are actually taking note (i.e., I've heard this all before, just not on Slashdot.)

      But I agree with you. Saying and doing are two different things

  • General Comment (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kaffiene ( 38781 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @04:35AM (#14685790)
    I'm... well, not suprised I guess, but unhappy at the ammount of cynicsm in the responses to this article. Most /.'rs seem to accept mediocrity far to readily. Perhaps the hope that games might transcend their current bounds artistically is in vain, but to scoff the desire to even try seems entirely modern, entirely dead, entirely futile, entirely what I'd expect of the /. crowd.

    Its much better to fail than to accept doing nothing at all with some stupid half-arsed off the cuff comment. But on Slashdot, empty irony wins. Very clever.
  • All this from the guy who had a hand in creating the game with naken women who you sex up in order to heal you and stand a better chance of going through the next level.

    GEE THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTION!
    (Do as I say, not as I do?)

    Disclaimer:
    I played one level of God of War, beat the first boss, did the ladies thing, saved and haven't played since.

    Follow-up:
    No, I didn't stop playing it because I didn't like it. I really did like the game...
  • "Me need work...oh yeah...oh yeah," said the singer.

    -Eric

  • Call of Duty, man those cinematic charges and stuff in Russia and D-Day really deeply affected me like no video game ever has. It's just that designers have to shoot for something like that, not just ubber pwning and junk for the kiddies.
  • "Soul" is usually gained at the expense of speed and/or expense.. which is directly detrimental to the business grail of "profit"..

    You can make successful games with "soul" and they make tremendous amounts of money as a reward.. HOWEVER, if you try to make a game with said "soul" and if fails.. it could mean death to your company.
  • I can't believe I haven't heard a reference to Shiny's


    SACRIFICE


    Come on what game has more soul than that? -DW
  • I've been playing games with "soul" for years. One of the earliest examples I can recall are the early Sierra games, before they turned into the generic crap we've seen in recent years. Those stories were entertaining and very effecting; even though those characters consisted of blocky sprites I felt more attached to them than any character I've played in the last 5 years, despite all the graphical advances.

    I can't really think of anything recent that stands out. Morrowind and the expansions impressed me. A

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