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Role Playing (Games) IT

Dungeons & Dragons and IT 243

boyko.at.netqos writes "An editorial in Network Performance Daily tries to take a (1d6) stab at explaining why geeky engineering types are also typically the types that enjoy a rousing game of D&D. From the article "The greatest barrier to creativity is a lack of boundaries. Counter-intuitive — almost zen-like — but we've found it to be true. This is why people play Dungeons & Dragons (and similar games), and why network engineers often spend time putting out fires when they could be improving the network."
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Dungeons & Dragons and IT

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  • Re:O RLY? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by c3ph45 ( 911279 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:34PM (#18438879)
    Pushing the envelope is really what creativity is all about, or at least it's a driving force for many people. No boundaries == no envelope && no envelope == lack of purpose.
  • by QuantumG ( 50515 ) <qg@biodome.org> on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:36PM (#18438901) Homepage Journal
    Guess what causes the fires? That's right, "improving the network". What does the study show about network engineer's inability to keep their grubby paws out of things that are working perfectly fine thank you very much.
  • by zappepcs ( 820751 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:42PM (#18438959) Journal
    FTFA: Knowing this axiom of human nature, network managers can manage their team more efficiently by challenging their network engineers with more specific forward-looking issues and, more importantly, making sure they're spending an adequate amount of time focused on these initiatives. If a network manager only calls out the engineering team when there's a problem, all that manager is doing is preserving the status quo, not improving.

    I find it strange that a opinion on management problems is based on D&D, but that's just me. This didn't say anything about the problem where a network engineer sees a problem but is held back because the management can't envision the problem as a problem, never mind fixing it.

    What I see more often is groups that are having trouble keeping up with required changes (SarbOx et al) to run around making things perfect. When a problem does happen, it is put out like a fire and work shifts back to making required changes rather than trying to make sure that particular fire doesn't happen again.
  • Realistically (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TobyWong ( 168498 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:42PM (#18438963)
    A lot of people need to be told specifically what to do.

    Other people can work on their own provided they are provided with scope, goals, etc.

    A minority of people don't need any guidance or roadmap at all in order to do their work and inevitably they are the ones who do the most innovation because their thought process is not confined to space/boundaries defined by someone else.
  • Poetry too (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nelsonal ( 549144 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:44PM (#18438981) Journal
    Why do you think the most highly regarded poems generally are in one of the stricter poetry families (haiku, sonnets). Lots of structure, but within the structures, complete freedom to exercise creativity.
  • by Yaur ( 1069446 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:51PM (#18439049)
    "The greatest barrier to creativity is a lack of boundaries" is not really true. What they try, and fail, to get at is that being "creative" is easier the more information you have about the problem domain. In TFA they compare difficulty in "writing a story" compare to "writing a story about ...". Because the second problem gives more information about the problem. This has been well understood for a long time. In the example they give providing some information about the "problem" that needs to be solved (e.g. more redundancy? less packet loss? Reduce operating costs?) will probably give good results, not because it provides "boundaries" but because it provides "information" and changes the problem from a sythesis problem to an analysis problem. Of course creating this information in the first place is a non-trivial task.
  • by Chris Burke ( 6130 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @12:00AM (#18439121) Homepage
    An editorial in Network Performance Daily tries to take a (1d6) stab at explaining why geeky engineering types are also typically the types that enjoy a rousing game of D&D

    Honestly. You were wondering why? Maybe because they're both geeks. Geek takes geek profession, news at 11! And D&D is to a large extent generational, anyway. Later it's the collectible card game or video game geek, and before D&D it was the, I don't know, transistor radio geek. You get my point. Not all engineers are geeks, as time goes on especially, but it takes a mentality that was often found in the, say, socially unacustomed?

    That doesn't seem to be what the article is about. It seems to be more about how you can get geeks to work better within well specified rules, with D&D as an explanation or example. Not that I really agree; the cool thing about D&D with a real DM was that you could do whatever you wanted even if the rules didn't say how. It's only computer RPGs that have rigid limitations. But it's probably good advice in general anyway, to have some well specified goals and restrictions. Goals that aren't well specified is a fun way to mess with player's heads if you're an evil dungeon master, maybe not a good way to manage.
  • by LOTHAR, of the Hill ( 14645 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @12:03AM (#18439141)
    I"ve always wondered why so many of the people that play d&d end up as IT professionals. I don't know how popular D&D is now. When I was in uni, there were more current or former D&D players in the programming classes than not.

    D&D helped me be a better engineer by:
    1. learning and working with a complex rule set.
    2. Reading and comprehending specifications. The rulebook is several hundred pages long.
    3. Problem solving within a strict set of boundaries, both individually and as a group
    4. Failing a quest gracefully, without a hissy fit or seppeku, and without blaming the Damned Managers! (DM)

    Of course, I also found that many people like playing D&D specifically to fight about and try to break the rules. I ended up working with many of the same kinds of people.

    Maybe the manager should run his project more like a DM running a campaign. Then see how hard they work, in full costume.
  • I'll tell you why (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Thaelon ( 250687 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @12:13AM (#18439213)
    Because in spite of being among the more intelligent and logical bunch, you'll find few who wish harder that magic was real. And we know better than most that it isn't. The game is a chance to step out of reality for a while and flesh out what we imagine it could be like.
  • by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @12:29AM (#18439309) Journal
    I read the article, and I've also been peripherally involved with NetQoS' products. Although the premise is fairly straightforward and mostly correct, he makes some insane extrapolations.

    Good network engineers, sysadmins, infrastructure support folks, and so forth, don't avoid improving their environments. They usually don't have time to do so, because any down-time from disasters is considered wasteful. In the rare event of time to work on stuff, they're generally so burnt out they don't have time. After nonstop hours (or days!) of fixing emergencies, they often barely have enough energy to slump into their chairs, let alone improve the landscape. Basically, they don't have the time or energy to reduce their workload, except when opportunity presents itself.

    Now bad network engineers (etc.) have another problem, and that problem is called tunnel vision. They're incapable of seeing anything other than the immediate task in front of them, so even when the opportunity comes up to truly solve a problem, they duct-tape the broken symptom for the umpteenth time, and end up creating even MORE work for themselves. (And for the rest of their team, not to mention giving users an unrealistic expectation of service.)

    In come the productivity enhancing solutions. "Our product will reduce these six disparate reactive monitoring tasks you do now into a single proactive tool." There's a good chance that it will actually do what it says, but only after a test phase, approval, design, rollout (including installing clients on all 400 of your servers), and then tuning. For a medium-to-large scale environment, I'd throw out a rough guess of 9 months, consuming an average of 1/3 of an engineer's time. Given that you're looking at a group of probably 4 people for that environment, that's not insignificant. Still, the company takes a look at it--they bring in a box to build a limited-scope test, and look at it for a few weeks. Those weeks turn into a month and change, and the group realises that the tuning will take a LOT of time afterwards (because extensive tuning isn't part of the proposed rollout scope or timeframe), and ultimately decides to say no.

    The vendor's conclusion: These guys would rather put out fires than solve problems.

    Not to say that the connection between D&D and IT is invalid, but the firefighting/systemic improvement argument is total crap.
  • Re:Wait...? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by norton_I ( 64015 ) <hobbes@utrek.dhs.org> on Thursday March 22, 2007 @12:50AM (#18439443)
    Computer games aren't role playing, despite any rumors to the contrary in the genere title.
  • It's simpler. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jd ( 1658 ) <imipak@yahoGINSBERGo.com minus poet> on Thursday March 22, 2007 @12:54AM (#18439479) Homepage Journal
    Look at what typically appears in any RPG: Tables, equations, conflicting optimizations, quotas/capacities, invariants, if/then/else structures, inventive/imaginative solutions, time-slicing between threads, a central processing unit conversing with programs (or players), etc. Do you see anything that might be familiar in any of these?

    Now look at some of the RPGs and LRPs which have failed over time. Tunnels and Trolls, for example. Treasure Trap. These are games that have far too simple a system. They lack the structure or the coherence I've outlined as existing in those games that do well.

    Some of the themed RPGs - the Dr Who RPG, for example - have not done well because there is too much structure or too great an imbalance. There's no room for optimization or one thread gets all of the useful time.

    No, a successful RPG or LRP is one that mimics the tools that every engineer - software or hardware - uses every working day, along with the same tradeoffs, the same architecture and the same flexibility. RISC-architecture games (like D&D) generally produce faster, more exciting games than those that are CISC-architectured (like Rolemaster), but each has devotees. And I'll bet almost anything that the devotee mappings are almost identical for the processor design as they are for the game design.

    To say that they are both geeks is missing something much more fundamental. I've shown that RPGs and engineering are essentially identical. What about other devotees - the DIY radio geek mentioned in the parent post, for example? Exactly the same elements are present, in exactly the same form. Instead of balancing which stat to bump up, you're balancing circuit layout vs. noise, sensitivity vs. squelch, or any number of other factors. Imaginative solutions? There are hundreds of ways to make a tuned circuit, depending on how much drift you want to allow or how exact you want the results. Tables? Well, you look up any component spec sheet and tell me what there's plenty of. There's no such thing as a 100 ohm resistor, or rather there are a few thousand, depending on the exact characteristics you are looking for.

    Oh, you'll find geeks amongst the wargamers, as well. A good game of "Squad Leader", "Britannia" or "Decline and Fall" has every bit as much mathematical elegance and logic as a finely-honed encryption library or precision-made racing engine. Again, if you look at the wargames that have done badly, you find they are mostly games with too little in them or are so heavy that they are unplayable.

    They all have exactly the same common elements and - this is the key part - they all read like a diagnostic manual for so-called Geek Syndrome. In other words, the "geeks", the games, the professions and the hobbies are not logically distinguishable. Different sides, same coin. To say that a geek is attracted to the game has no more meaning than to say that the game is attracted to the geek. It just doesn't make any sense to make that kind of distinction. It simply doesn't exist.

  • by hyc ( 241590 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @01:36AM (#18439749) Homepage Journal
    Yes, and ... synthesis is the harder problem. In general, my experience has been "when you can do anything at all, you often stop and do nothing at all." Too much freedom brings paralysis, because you don't know what choice to make. Again, that's synthesis, creating your own agenda from zero, when you have no constraints and no direction laid out already. Being called in to fight a fire is easy, because you know the starting condition and the end goal. Looking at a well-runningsteady state environment and finding ways to improve it is hard, really hard. That's why they say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" because more often than not, you break it. It takes a really rare insight to actually improve a working system, and most people just don't get them; most people can't do real synthesis.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22, 2007 @02:04AM (#18439885)
    Seriously: Geeks love stuffing their brains full of obscure facts and extracting them to demonstrate their vast mental superiority. Whether it's from a VAX VMS manual (which is actually worse than hearing voices in your head) or from the Dungeons and Dragons DM's Manual, it impresses others.

    It only impresses other geeks, and even then not all of them. Most regular folk find givers of gratuitous information to be pricks, if not fabulists. The line is certainly fairly thin, with the fabulists occupying a rather large subset of the socially inept geek circle.

  • by Mr. Freeman ( 933986 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @02:21AM (#18439939)
    It can also be caused by the fact that the network is flawed, and needs improving but because it can't be improved there are more "fires", and because there are more fires, there's no time to fix the network.

    E.X. if it's really easy for someone to fuck up some critical thing in the network, they will fuck it up....often. If you're constantly trying to undo every network fuckup, you don't have much time to improve the network that would prevent people from fucking it up all together.

    But here's the problem. If you stop undoing every single fuckup and just let the network remain broken for a couple days while you work on a fix for the network, your boss just thinks you're lazy and aren't doing your job.
  • by tieTYT ( 989034 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @04:11AM (#18440409)
    I think software engineers have to deal with this a lot too. When the manager asks for an estimate you should estimate the time it takes to fix it "right" instead of fix it "wrong" (ie: just enough effort to get it working again). Of course, it's very hard to be motivated to fix it "right" when everyone around you fixes it "wrong" and does it twice as fast. I donno if network engineering is like this too.
  • by Moraelin ( 679338 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @04:50AM (#18440581) Journal

    Guess what causes the fires? That's right, "improving the network". What does the study show about network engineer's inability to keep their grubby paws out of things that are working perfectly fine thank you very much.

    And there you have it, the much saner explanation of why people would rather stick to fighting fires than improve something: it's not lack of creativity, it's that someone will blame you if anything, no matter how unrelated, goes wrong. If there's a fire, you have your excuse. If you just tweaked the firewall on your own, and an entirely unrelated intranet (i.e., not even accessed through that firewall) server crashes, it's you who's to blame.

    And it's not just the network. There are other things that don't just work and stay working, but actually need constant monitoring and occasionally tweaking, or you _will_ get a fire. E.g., if an application server's utilization is constantly climbing, someone _should_ monitor it and notice the problem long before it becomes basically "slashdotted". If you just wait until there's a fire, and just stick to keeping your grubby paws off it until it's too late, then, frankly, you're dong a crap job. E.g., if a database is doing more full table scans than it should, then your job as a DBA should be to notice the problem long before there's a fire. Maybe the cache needs to be tweaked, or maybe the indexes or statistics need to be rebuilt, or maybe you should just notify the developpers that their SQL statements are crap. Keeping your grubby paws off it until there's a fire -- e.g., everyone's transactions start getting timeouts -- is, frankly, doing a crap job. Your job should be to help prevent the fire in the first place. And that goes for the developpers and maintenance engineers too, btw, not just the IT guys.

    Except there too you're to blame if you did anything and anything else went wrong. If you just optimized one of the company's programs or the database, you're suddenly the one to blame if anything even unrelated goes wrong. E.g., you optimized the templates for generating HTML? Congrats, now you're to blame every time the user sees an error page. Even if in reality at that time the messaging system croaked, or whatever. The question will always first be if it's your change that caused it. Sometimes even if some unrelated program running on the same server, if it happened after your deployment, the first assumption will be, basically, Post hoc ergo propter hoc [wikipedia.org]. It must be because of what you did.

    Additionally, if we're talking IT, a lot of companies have implemented a thoroughly counter-productive policy where you can't do anything without writing an invoice to someone. The mis-guided idea is to gauge the need for an IT department and make those guys justify their salary. The result invariably is that noone does anything any more unless explicitly being asked to, by someone they can get money from. Suddenly if you need, say, an Apache server, you have to personally talk to the server admins, and to the network admins, and to the MQ admins, and the Apache admins, and everything else. You can no longer talk to just one guy and have him ask the others for the details, because every single one of those guys need to justify their salaries by sending you a bill.

    At any rate, that's the end of showing any initiative or creativity right there. Why bother tweaking the database server on your own? It's outright counter-productive. It's something you could be writing a bill for, if they just wait until someone else requests it. Just stick your head in the sand until there's a fire to fight.

    Basically, blaming it on lack of creativity is somewhat missing the point.

    Some people would be creative all right, and are creative in their free time all right. They write fan stories, write their own cool programs or libraries, try to code their own game or mod, are "wizards" (coders) on some MUD, role-play, etc. They don't reall

  • Re:Realistically (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aadvancedGIR ( 959466 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @07:47AM (#18441303)
    I'd like to live in your alternative reality...

    Of course it requires great minds to innovate, but it is rare that these people really work on their own without constraints. Some of them do however, and the .com bubble gave some of them a good opportunity (a lot of available cash and everything to create from the void), but in the large majority, innovation comes from constraints, something that drives you nuts and give you a reason to concentrate your efforts on that particular scope (and/or pay people from the second category to work on it with/for you), as I read somewhere, "happy people enjoy the world, unhappy people make it a better place to live".

    BTW, I personally believe I fall in the second category. I once in a while tried to start my own mini-projects but never could find something that could interest me for more than a few weeks and they all ended being only occasions to learn new languages or skills, but every day I get paid reasonably well to find innovative solutions to other peoples's problems, I won't probably never change the world or be famous but I have a motivation (money and reputation), and it really makes a big difference in the quality of my work.
  • by elrous0 ( 869638 ) * on Thursday March 22, 2007 @09:16AM (#18441935)
    Geeks (and I'm one myself) don't play D&D because we're "creative types." We play it because it lets us imagine ourselves as strong, powerful warriors and wizards in a world where WE'RE in charge. In D&D men fear us and women want us. In real life, we're getting our head dunked into the toilet in high school. In D&D, we're baddasses. In real life, we get passed over for promotion.

    Ask yourself, when is the last time you saw a D&D character drawing that featured an overweight or underweight, pimply guy with glasses? No, in D&D everyone is muscular and/or powerful, with a beautiful girl hanging off each arm.

    It's not about creativity, it's about escapism.

  • by mandelbr0t ( 1015855 ) on Thursday March 22, 2007 @03:08PM (#18447921) Journal

    Creativity is about new ideas and concepts that didn't exist before and actually making them happen.
    While I agree with you that creativity specifically refers to creating original thoughts, ideas, literature, "content", etc., there's a fine line between outright original creativity and synthesis. If you push the line too far in the fascist "that's not an original idea" direction, then you end up claiming that the first human to fluently speak a language is responsible for all original thought. Clearly that's absurd.

    Synthesis is about "remixing" (a good term since that's what many electronic musicians/technicians do) old ideas in new ways. I'd argue that good synthesis has been responsible for many original works in many fields. Everything in the common knowledge base builds on something before it. An apple falling on someone's head five centuries ago has lead to physical theories that ponder the beginning of time. The quote attributed to Newton is really applicable here: "If we have seen farther than those before us, it is because we have stood on the shoulders of giants".

    Long story short, synthesis has been responsible for many new theories and works of art. No, it's not original in the strictest sense, but what can you truly consider original? Even your story about a talking cave and a dog living inside a troll is just a rearrangement of words from TFA. This post is quite original, but it uses a famous quotation and paraphrases history to make its point.

Suggest you just sit there and wait till life gets easier.

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