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Games Entertainment

QA as a Bridge to a Game Career? 84

Posted by Zonk from the if-i-can-make-it-there-i-can-make-it-anywhere dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Over at educational site Game Career Guide, there's a new article asking whether game testing is a good way to get into the game industry. Veteran game tester Zachary Slater comments of the conundrum: 'QA could be a worthwhile career path for console and computer games if only it were treated and respected as such ... It isn't and probably won't be. Game developers and publishers seem to regard QA as an unfortunate expense required in the development process. It is a problem for anyone who wants to actually focus on it that they won't be respected for doing so.'"
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QA as a Bridge to a Game Career? More

QA as a Bridge to a Game Career?

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  • No (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Tridus ( 79566 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @12:36PM (#19132135) Homepage
    The best way to get into the game industry (not that I understand why anybody would want to given the horrid working conditions) is as something that has a part in the creation of the game. Development, artists, that sort of thing.

    Testers are the people who annoy everybody by coming back with a build and saying "it doesn't meet xbox certification criteria 347-15a", thereby causing the developers to have to work another 12 hour day to fix it.

    If you actually want to be a tester, then its fine. If your goal is to move into something like development, testing isn't a good place to start.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jevvim ( 826181 )
      If your goal is to move into something like development, testing isn't a good place to start.

      I believe testing is the right place to start, but that you should start as an intern while in college. After that experience, you'll not only understand the testing process but you'll also gain motivation to finish your degree.

      • I agree.

        At the same time I also think that what you have is your classic case of "foot in the door." Basically, this gives you an "in" to a company. If you prove your worth, you can move up. Most companies are more than happy to move someone up internally rather than have to hire externally for upper positions.

        RonB
        • Yeah, thats what devs tell hopeful 18yr olds. Worked in enough game companies, and I've known the testers generally. They are generally stuck in some really shitty room, and regarded as a lower being. In my years I have only ever seen one tester move out of test, and that was to QA code directly. Never seen an artist emerge, never seen a programmer, nothing has ever come out of test. How I got my foot in the door? I interned for bout 4-5 months in the marketing department doing design-work. Even when I was

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Malkin ( 133793 )
            I've seen artists and programmers get out of QA. It happens. It depends a lot on both the company and the people in question. Also, in about half these cases, the people transitioned out of QA by changing companies. Even if you never transfer out of QA at your current position, just having worked in the industry (and knowing people in the industry) will make a huge difference when looking for that next job.
            • Even if you never transfer out of QA at your current position, just having worked in the industry (and knowing people in the industry) will make a huge difference when looking for that next job.

              Not really. Let's see:

              Potential boss: "What are your coding qualifications?"
              Interview candidate: "Well, I worked in QA..."
              Potential boss: "Next!"

              QA skills don't really transfer to any other type of game industry job. You can't be an illustrator. You can't work in marketing. You can't be a coder. You can't do

              • Re: (Score:1)

                by Malkin ( 133793 )

                "Interview candidate: 'Well, I worked in QA...'"

                If that was the first answer she could think of, she should consider a different career. :P

                "QA skills don't really transfer to any other type of game industry job."

                I never said they did. That's not why you work in QA.

                "I worked at a large publisher for a while (in marketing) and I only ever saw one guy move from QA into anything else."

                Again, it totally depends on the company. While I think smaller ones are better for lateral mobility, I've seen people get int

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Testers are the people who annoy everybody by coming back with a build and saying "it doesn't meet xbox certification criteria 347-15a", thereby causing the developers to have to work another 12 hour day to fix it.

      Then you should have implemented the cert correctly in the first place.

      Don't blame QA for developer incompetence.

    • In the above statement, your "best" certainly doesn't mean "easiest." Breaking in as an artist, designer, or programmer is substantially harder than breaking in on other tracks. These positions have huge pools of outside applicants, and there is a sufficient amount of domain-specific knowledge required that companies almost always hire people who are already inside the industry. This is not to say that it's impossible to break into one of these positions, but it creates an extra hurdle, in addition to th

      • 2.) Network, network, network.

        Oh, I tried that once, they fired me because I thought I'd found the correct socket for the UTP cable. Also, people don't speak IPv4 :-(

      • There are problems with that though.

        "1.) Do your QA job well. It may not be the one you wanted, but if you don't do it well, the only place you're going is the unemployment office. The company's perception of your competence will be important if you want to get into another department."

        While this one is partially true it can also lead to backfiring. When transferring people from one department to another both the receiving department and the releasing department must agree. If you are regarded as important

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Malkin ( 133793 )
          "If you are regarded as important by QA then QA may not allow you to transfer out."

          Yeah, I've seen a lot of QA folks change departments by changing companies. They still have a better chance at a job in another department at another company than they would if they were coming from the outside. Just having a game company on your resume and knowing people in the industry makes a huge difference.

          "QA is separated from the other departments and there is a horrible stigma against them so in the off chance that
          • Well yeah, it defiantly depends on the company. I have heard some decent stories before but at least from my personal experience it has been pretty bad. Where I got my experience in QA, testers are quite literally not allowed in the same building that the dev team works in; we worked in the small smelly building across the street.
    • "Testers are the people who annoy everybody by coming back with a build and saying "it doesn't meet xbox certification criteria 347-15a", thereby causing the developers to have to work another 12 hour day to fix it."

      As a PjM for a development team, this statement is a key indicator of a bad developer. If you want to blame test for preventing your crappy code from getting to the customer that is fine, but if you said that in my staff you would be on your way out.
      • Mod parent up. Underrated and insightful.

        Greetings from a former white box tester turned data center manager.

        We need more software QA testers. The sheer amount of show stopper bugs making it into released products today says that much.

        Testers need more respect and they need to be held to higher standards.
        • I agree. Test is a hard, boring and underrated job. Bad developers are a dime a dozen, and good tester is a rare gem. A good developer should also test thier code, and evokes tears of joy when I find one.
    • It really depends on the company. Different places regard testers very differently. I've never worked in the gaming industry but I have a lot of experiance in the software developement industry.

      I started at IBM as a graduate (Hursley dev labs for those that know IBM). Every grad starting there goes into test. Its a good place to learn the product (frequently better on a general level than any of the devs) and from there they will look for those that have developement aptitude.

      I was on that track until I got

  • Not anymore... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MeanderingMind ( 884641 ) * on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @12:40PM (#19132197) Homepage Journal
    You'll read stories about "Ye Olde Thymes" when testers were often able to pursue opportunities and become designers or "higher" positions in a video gaming organization. Given the larger requirements for positions, the necessity of degrees, and other factors it is not the best way to make your big break.

    If you really want to design video games, the best thing you can do is make them yourself. You won't be able to make a super AAA title that way, but you'll have full creative control over your work and something to show for it in a portfolio.

    • If you really want to design video games, the best thing you can do is make them yourself. You won't be able to make a super AAA title that way, but you'll have full creative control over your work and something to show for it in a portfolio.

      It might be an excellent stepping stone - and my recommendation would be to MAKE A MOD, and see what happens.

      My own MINERVA [hylobatidae.org] has resulted in unsolicited job offers from all sorts of people - and I'm not even intending to work in the games industry. I mean, I get fan-mail

      • Did he try to make you his bitch or get you to "Suck It Down!"?

        • Did he try to make you his bitch or get you to "Suck It Down!"?

          Sadly, no - but I did ask him if my dear Minerva had made him her bitch.

          For some reason, I never got a reply. I think he might have taken offence. :-(
    • When it comes to game design, experience is most important.

      Most gamers have totally unrealistic expectations when it comes to game design. What they teach in schools and colleges just doesn't capture the realities of....well, of anything really.

      The best possible way to figure out the madness that is the game development industry is to work in it and witness that madness first-hand. Only once you've done that, do you have a chance of convincing someone that you "get it".

      If busting your ass as a QA tester, wo

  • QA has worked for many professionals (Score:4, Informative)

    by The_Hooleyman ( 724719 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @12:45PM (#19132281)

    I work for a large game development studio.

    If you didn't go to school, but you are energetic, disciplined and passionate, apply for QA roles and then commit to understanding the mechanics you see when you are testing. I know an Executive Producer of an extremely successful 2006 game that started in QA years before and absorbed the processes he saw around himself. He moved into design years later and applied this knowledge while absorbing process from the new disciplines around him. Then he was a respected Producer for years, mainly because he understood what it took to get things done in each area. Most recently he applied all of this with a talented team and made a great game.

    Even young punks who think they know it all can grow up in QA. It is quite an eye-opener for these know-it-alls to be around disciplined, confident CompSci and other graduates who really do know their stuff. They often mature during this process can move onto roles with more responsibility. The ones that don't are easy to spot. If you have the education, the only thing that you need if you are missing experience in the games industry is modesty and passion. Modesty to work on the boring systems, and passion to make those seem exciting.

    The industry really needs more candidates. If you see business news about the growing game industry, remember that 85%+ of that growth is people. We routinely hire talent from other countries because we don't get enough local resumes.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by bflynn ( 992777 )
      If the industry needs more candidates, then simple economics says that the answer is to pay more. The gaming industry is notorious for low pay at starting positions. If you don't get in right after college, you'll have to take a huge pay cut to break into the industry. That pretty much keeps anyone with experience out of the industry. The arrogance of "you haven't put in your time" means that almost everyone has to come up from the bottom. Additionally, it stifles innovation because you have to be in t

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cgenman ( 325138 )
      Two of the four (or so) producers at my company started in QA. Two of the four designers did. QA have routinely made the transition to Art and Programming, though they were trained in those fields. And some of them are Career QA at this point, with an intent of staying put indefinitely. I started as QA, and now I'm design. They don't teach you everything you need to know to make games if you're coming from most comp sci or art programs. QA is a great way to pick up those missing pieces for a year befo

  • Myth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by duckpoopy ( 585203 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @12:46PM (#19132325) Journal
    There is a myth that you have to "break into" the game industry. The truth is if you have a clue what you are doing they will find you. Put a tech demo or game demo togother, put it on a website, and put the URL on your resume. If you don't have a demo, you probably aren't fit for the industry since most successful people there enjoy writing games/demos. Just because you like playing games doesn't mean you like making games. Also, keep in mind they nobody is going to hire you to make YOUR game, they are hiring you to make THEIR game, so your creative ideas are meaningless to potential employers.
    • "...so your creative ideas are meaningless to potential employers."

      I agree with that but would preface it with "until you get the job." And depending on the position, they may be quite meaningful to potential employers. It's how you go about presenting it that counts. (Speaking as someone who worked in graphic design on and off for a few years)

      You have to provide your input at the right time and not expect to start out at the top. It is that way with any job, even more so in games that require creati

      • No Free Lunch (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Plekto ( 1018050 )
        The real trick here is to find a small company or a group of developers. The #1 mistake most people make starting out is they think like 50 year olds and go for a big company with way too many people. This results in less risk and a nicer resume', but it also leads to just being another cog in the works and a total lack of real opportunities.

        The simple fact is that quality control and customer support gets worse as the company is bigger. That is, unless you go in as one of the original 10-20 employees at
  • I know many people who got into unix, embedded and appliance development by starting in QA. If you do QA at places like Cisco, Sun, NetApp, Juniper, etc it is possible (with the effort and the right amount of pressure on your boss) to move into a development role. Some people who do QA move into other positions like support, docs, management, etc.

    Really the key to moving ahead in QA is to have a good boss who recognizes your abilities and is willing to help you archive your goals. I can't imagine it is any

    • and is willing to help you archive your goals

      Is this somewhat akin to my parents helping me kill my dreams and ambitions?
  • It's a hard road that doesn't pay very well and has very poor job security. It's mindless, grueling work.

    But I know several game designers who got their start in QA and used it to prove that they knew how to make good games. If you really do think you would excel as a game designer, if you're a bright, motivated person who can distinguish themselves from the other testers, and you can't find a way into the industry another way, it's not a bad way to go. If all this applies, and you live in the bay area, I k

    • Testing is only mindless if you're not good at it. It takes a specific kind of person to be a virtuoso tester, but those people will, regularly, write more bugs than five mediocre testers combined. You are testing a system for flaws. If you understand how that type of system is built - that is, if you're a programmer - you have clues as to what might produce bugs.

      I will say that I disagree with the idea of game QA as a way to break into game development. That's silly. If you're not a great tester you won'

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by eviloverlordx ( 99809 )

        Testing is only mindless if you're not good at it. It takes a specific kind of person to be a virtuoso tester, but those people will, regularly, write more bugs than five mediocre testers combined. You are testing a system for flaws. If you understand how that type of system is built - that is, if you're a programmer - you have clues as to what might produce bugs.

        More bugs is not a good measure of QA ability. What you're looking for is *better* bugs. One tester may find 20 trivial typos, while another may

        • Yes but at least for the QA department I worked for. The guy that puts in 20 trivial typos will have a job at the end of the project the guy that puts in bugs, that will cause the game to crash, relatively constantly but does not up in the 20 typos will be fired for not meeting his quota.
          • That's unfortunate. I've had the luck (luxury?) to get into companies that understand that bug quality is more important than bug quantity. Sometimes it's a struggle with non-dev management, but the devs usually understand the difference.

  • It *CAN* work... you just have to be patient. (Score:3, Informative)

    by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt.nerdflat@com> on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @12:58PM (#19132589) Journal

    An acquaintance of mine was a tester for Electronic Arts for several years, although he was certainly qualified as a computer programmer. He always got laid off from QA when the work was slow and then because he made a point of remaining available, he was rehired again whenever they needed more testers.

    Eventually (only recently, in fact), they finally took him on in a permanent capacity as a full-time developer. But this whole process took YEARS.. and in that whole time, there was never any real indication of hope that he was ever going to be anything more than a tester for them.

    So I'm inclined to believe that it can work, but one may have to stick it through a lot of periods of unstable employment. Bear in mind also that the fact that the fellow I know got hired on as a developer may have only been fortuitous for him, I can offer no guarantee that this tactic would always work.

  • You'll find that the industry places varying degrees of importance on QA. Some places give it minimal importance, hiring contractors and disposable employees to do just enough QA to get by. Those places will have horrible hours, low pay, and be miserable experiences, taking advantage of the fact that a lot of people want to do gaming. Other places will give it proper importance, making it a clear part of the lifecycle. They'll pay decently, actually listen to input, and give the requisite resources and

  • Yes and No (Score:4, Insightful)

    by p0tat03 ( 985078 ) on Tuesday May 15, 2007 @01:10PM (#19132767)

    I've known some people who have "broken in" to development after spending a lot of (grueling, low-pay, poor security) time in QA. Which is to say... it is possible to get into dev through QA.

    That said, I've known many a game developer, and the general consensus is that, while it is possible, the possibility is also remote enough that it's a pretty crappy idea. A lot of game development, from the code side anyway (I'm assuming since this is Slashdot that this is the case), require extensive understanding of computer science fundamentals, so unless you are some genius self-trained uber-coder, it's probably best if you go to school and learn the nuts and bolts necessary in this industry.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ivan256 ( 17499 )
      Judging from job offers I've had in the past (and turned down), "breaking in" straight into development is also grueling and low-pay at a large percentage of studios. Salaries are low because there are people, excellent people, who are so desperate to work in games that the studios don't have to pay much to attract talent.

      Getting in to the game industry is the same as getting into any other industry with that one additional catch. Just like every other industry, you can get in easy if you know your stuff we

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by p0tat03 ( 985078 )

        Agreed, though "below average" for developers is at least somewhat livable. From what I've seen (I've known many people who've worked QA), the pay is minimum wage. I know guys flipping burgers at McDonalds making more money than a tester at EA. Unless you are a senior QA tester (such a term is hardly heard of), do not expect to support yourself with a QA job.

        • ... and I can vouch for this. Breaking into gaming via QA is not a good idea. Pay is below burger flipping with no health care. Unless you are very good at QA, expect to go through multiple layoff/rehire cycles. It's a mindnumbing job, with mindnumbing hours - especially during crunch time. You don't have to make enemies out of developers, but again, unless you are very good at QA, you probably will.

          The end result is this: if you are good enough to break into gaming via QA, you are good enough to break into

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Bobartig ( 61456 )
            If you're working in the QA department at EA, get a job as a Development Tester. Its easier to get into Devtest if you have some testing experience, CS background, or hardware background. You also need to know a lot about games, bugs, QA, and general game quality. Whereas they might have 30-50 core QA testers, a project might have 3-10 DevTest. During my two projects (Tiger Woods '07, Spore) at EA, my work experience was nothing like the standard QA stories you hear. It was the most fun I've ever had at any
  • Trying to get into game development while starting as a tester is not really much of a bridge. It is very hard to cross over into a development role. When it does happen, it is mostly going to happen by you becoming either a designer or a producer.

    It is not much of a bridge. Crossing a bridge is easy. This sort of career path is more akin to trying to swim across a large river. There is no guarantee you will make it across, and you run the risk of drowning half way across.

    Of course, once your across, y
  • Interesting article. I worked at QA at two different places: one was a large publishing house, and one was a smaller dev house / self-publisher. My take on it is that QA really, really sucks to be in, no matter where you are, but it's way worse to be at a publisher. As mentioned in the article, testers there are temps, and completely removed from the development process. They are treated with little respect, and paid poorly. There is little to no chance of moving into a more substantive role, other than up
  • The thing is, developers don't always make good testers and testers don't always make good developers. Of course, if you're a tester you'll probably want to seek a higher goal, and there's really no where to go on your ladder except for lead tester/middle manager, or to the development side. And it's probably a whole lot easier to move up within testing than it is to jump over to development. Anyways, if you want to do development, you'd better actually know how to develop and design, the barrier of entr

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by bflynn ( 992777 )
      I agree. The personality traits that make someone a good tester tend to inhibit them as a programmer and vice-versa. Most good programmers would pull their hair out if forced to work in a QA job and most good QAers would be paralyzed by indecision in a free form programming world.
  • ... for a while. But it can be a dead end job and your future in QA will decrease as you get older (30+ is ancient) if you're not willing to sacrifice your entire life to the video game gods. When I became a lead tester at Atari after being a tester for three years, I knew my days were numbered as I was 30 and I had no interest in becoming an associate producer. I went back to school part-time to learn computer programming and earned my certifications (A+, Network+, and MCP). It was rough going as I had
  • QA, customer service, support or any other part of the company you can get into is a good way to get into a game career!

    At the game company I work for, we've had lead programmers start in customer service, software engineers with master's degrees start in tech support, or producers start in billing. The key is getting your foot in the door at the company you want to work for. The ones that weren't pulled from the lower echelons internally were pulled from similar positions at other companies where they like
  • As a couple people have noted, including a fellow MS tester in games, it really depends on where the QA position is, and what the actual role is about.

    I agree that pure QA game testing, where all you're doing is manually testing games to find bugs, discover balance issues, etc. is pretty grueling, not often respected, and unfortunately "a dime a dozen" at many places. However, there is much more to QA than that. Especially on the platform side, where I am, QA is far more technical. We're just as knee-deep i
  • I spent a year in QA and watched the best testers (dedicated, observant, smart, literate) get ignored while the slackers who turned up for Full Contract interviews in suits got the full time contracts instead. Great logic there. (For the record I don't consider myself one of the "good" testers and got the hell out of there as fast as I could).

    To this day I keep in touch with people in the department, most are either still there or got moved up the ladder one notch... in QA. Very occasionally you'll hear abo
  • As someone who has experience with hardware, software, web, and game QA, I can attest that QA has always been an entry point to development, regardless of the field. Testers learn the development process, common mistakes, common fixes, and, eventually, how to work the process to their advantage without stepping on toes or burning out. Testers can focus on technical, business, or process specialties without losing focus on their current jobs. This enables them to move rather easily into development, marketin
  • Modding is the way to go. Q&A will probably get you a job quick, but no where near a real position in a project. Modding with a good team on the other hand can get you attention with the big boys quite fast actually. I know a lead modeler from the Star Wars Movie Battles Crew and they are on the radar of Lucas Arts for quite some time now. (Not that Lucas Arts is where you want to be ... but that's another story). Modding is fun and rewarding in itself and as soon as you are good enough you get to pass

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by tepples ( 727027 )

      Modding is the way to go.
      Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo sue modders. Is this really the way you recommend?
  • From my personal experience in the game industry I can say that you can get your start in the game industry from QA if you are trying to move into producer roles. I have seen probably around 5-6 people move into producer roles from management positions in QA. However if you want to move into programming or art roles being in QA will actually hurt your chances more then help them(I haven't seen work that once).

    QA can give you some bonuses to your career path.

    You can get your name on a lot of titles quickly i
  • I got into development through QA. But there's a caveat: I didn't directly work my way up. In fact, there's oftentimes no direct path from QA to anything else. I wouldn't expect to be promoted from Tester to anything other than Lead Tester.

    The reason a QA job is helpful is that it introduces you to lots of people. Other testers, project managers, producers, programmers, artists, designers - if you make enough friends, eventually you'll be able to leverage that for your career. A tester will get hired as

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by darga ( 953093 )
      i'd second this as well. i didn't come up through qa but have seen a few people enter devteams from qa in the past year (to engineering and production). a few of the bigwigs i know, such as head development director, executive producer, lead producer, have started in qa. however i don't see it as something that's happening nearly as much as it used to. generally it seems like the people who join up from qa aren't even people i ever met before, but they made the most of their connections as castar mentions
  • The first Friday I worked as a games tester at EA, the whole company was having beer. About 1/3 of the beers were pop-top bottles (ie can't undo with your hands) and people were damaging the brand new furniture trying to open their bottles with brute force. I walked across to the office manager who was having a drink and politely explained the situation about the pop-tops and suggested that next week they get some bottle openers.

    I found out 6 months later through the grape-vine that I was almost fired for t
  • The way I see it, (a mechanical designer with a background in QA and manufacturing of mechanical components), the people with QA or manufacturing experience make MUCH better designers. Those people know what works, what doesn't, what's expensive, what's cheap, and especially which of those expensive difficult things are necessary. That being said, most mechanical designers (and I get the impression it's the same way in gaming) do NOT see this as a valid skillset. From my understanding, it's difficult to im

  • No way (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Stormie ( 708 ) on Wednesday May 16, 2007 @02:51AM (#19142035) Homepage
    QA is in no way a path into "real" work in the games industry. If you want to be a games programmer, you're going to need to impress with your portfolio of programming. If you want to do graphics, you're going to need to impress with your portfolio of graphics. If you want to do sound and music, you're going to need to impress with your portfolio of sound and music. The only advantage your QA job gives you is that you don't need an envelope and a stamp to send in your job application if you're already working in the same building. To be totally honest, the studios I've worked, QA were regarded with such withering contempt that working there would probably be a handicap. You'd get a better response if you were some random guy off the street.

  • No way (Score:2)

    by Stormie ( 708 )

    QA is in no way a path into "real" work in the games industry.

    If you want to be a games programmer, you're going to need to impress with your portfolio of programming. If you want to do graphics, you're going to need to impress with your portfolio of graphics. If you want to do sound and music, you're going to need to impress with your portfolio of sound and music.

    The only advantage your QA job gives you is that you don't need an envelope and a stamp to send in your job application if you're already wor

  • From QA to an assistant producer or assistant project manager position ---> common
    From QA to programmer or artist ---> almost never
    From QA to level designer or general design position ---> infrequent, but it does happen

    This all depends on the skills of the person, obviously. 95% of people in QA stay in QA.
  • Mod making is the best way to look good. Just don't fall into that "we must make our mod as good as a professional game" trap. Yea, make a game that kicks butt, but don't get caught up in making it "as pretty as a real game". Too many mod developers fall into that trap of thinking they need to compete with game developers. OK yea they do, but only on the level of gameplay, not visuals that one "buys" with big budgets.

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