Where the Wii Fits In 371
AGFlamey writes "On Angry Gamer is an interesting and lengthy article about the new direction Nintendo are taking with the Wii and in particular "non-games" like Wii Fit and Big Brain Academy. From the article: "Hardcore folks don't like to admit it, but Mario and Zelda are relics of the past. It's become quite clear that Nintendo is losing interest in remaking the same old games over and over. They want to pull us into something new, if only we can give them the chance." Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots?"
I'm not so sure... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nintendo is not neglecting its roots. (Score:5, Insightful)
In case you have forgotten (Score:5, Insightful)
Nintendo are Smart (Score:5, Insightful)
I Have a Bigger Complaint (Score:5, Insightful)
Cart, horse, etc (Score:5, Insightful)
"Yeah, Nintendo may make a few dollars from Grandma, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I bought one on release and there just aren't any good games that I like now. I've gotten bored of it and it's collecting dust in my closet. I'm back to playing GTA for the 14th time on my PS2. I'm selling my Wii as I wait for MGS to come out for PS3. The Wii's graphics look dated, come on Nintendo, you're going to lose my dollars here! I don't see what the big deal is with the Wiimote, it's just a gimick and will rapidly become boring to people. I'm already sick of the Wiimote and wish Nintendo would release some good 70-hour long RPGs."
Etc, etc, etc.
The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE. By the end of the summer there will be more Wiis out there than 360s (the next largest market). And Nintendo still can't keep these things in stock. All with "no good games" to buy.
No shit the hardcore gamers don't understand the new games - hell, they never understood the old games in the first place (ie: why any of us enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as we did - the Wiimote was just a gimick, right??).
Now to watch people respond to this post with exactly the dialog I quoted above
This is just silly (Score:4, Insightful)
Relics? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, we're not seeing many new protagonists this first generation of first party games from Nintendo for the Wii. Nintendo is playing it safe in their newly reformed gaming environment. So, they gauge the response to this first generation, and try to maximize the latent demand for existing worlds of imagination before making new ones... I definitely understand that process. That means they aren't gamblers going for broke, they wait until there's standing capitol for a venture before letting the allotment of risk increase. They also get to spend more time in development in play testing and improvement this way... which has certainly played out well for the end result, from what I've played so far.
Want to call Zelda, Mario, Metroid relics? That's fine. It's ad-hoc, but a valid opinion if you want to always prefer newly created worlds. But give them a chance if you ever want to try some of the most finely refined mix of new gameplay elements and old out there. I still appreciate such 'relics'.
Ryan Fenton
maybe they just want to get the board out there. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nintendo is "oriented" in the same direction all companies are orientated: making the bucks. To do that they have to have a product people prefer over that of the competition, and right now they've got one.
Nintendo discovered itself with a game player capable of things other players could not previously do. If you take away the new control interfaces however the Wii has very little on the playstation 2 let alone the playstation 3.
Nintendo may realize that they have to capitalize on these advantages, and are attempting to do so. XBOX and Playstation six axis game controllers are already in development. The Wii could lose it's spec ial charms at any time. What they have at the moment is the opportunity to get a jump on the competition with new interface formats and new game styles. We may be seeing a frantic research project on the part of Nintendo to find a way to get a lock on the "new thing" while they still have exclusive access.
A surf or skateboard game would seem to be very preferable over a yoga game, but they don't have to make one. They just have to get the board into the marketplace before microsoft. I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. Where they make the money is not by making a semi-popular game with a controller that is probably a wash profit wise. They make it when "Tony Hawke" comes out for their patented controller and everyone's got to buy a Wii so they can play it.
It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.
I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.
Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at the WarioWare series of games, for example. If WarioWare: Smooth Moves on the Wii isn't an example of "reinventing the entire story behind a game" then, please tell us, what out there is?
As for the Gamecube being a failure, well, if you go by the number of consoles sold then, sure, it wasn't as popular as the PlayStation 2, and was a "failure" but if you use that whacky profit metric that those crazy kids down at Wall Street are so fond of, the Gamecube did quite well.
I've never owned a Nintendo console in my life but it seems that they've made plenty of original games along the way, as well as making plenty of sequels (and let's not forget that sequels can be original too!), and made plenty of money doing it.
Creating a new market (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no doubt in my mind that the "Winner" in terms of product sold will be the Wii, however the important number for "traditional gamers" will be who comes in second. Either the 360 or ps3 could reach ps2 type sales numbers and still come in second. The "traditional gamers" are still there and are still a huge market to abandon them would be stupid, even Nintendo is aware of that.
The horror (Score:5, Insightful)
Which would you rather have, a choice between three consoles who are all somewhat different, each catering to a different set of gamers, or a market where all three console manufacturers shipped boxes that were essentially identical and catered to only a narrow market?
Whining about the Wii being too casual is like whining about how Cheerios don't taste like Frosted Flakes. If you don't like the Cheerios, just buy the fucking Frosted Flakes!
Re:Cart, horse, etc (Score:3, Insightful)
I think they understand that the Wii is outselling everyone; if they don't understand the popularity, that's not necessarily some intellectual flaw, but rather just represents a different taste.
Like a quick glance at the neilsen ratings website reveals the top three most watched TV shows last week were a baseball game, a game show, and a reality TV show. I, personally, don't understand how anyone could enjoy any of those things. Does this mean that I don't know that they're popular, or refuse to believe that people will continue to like them? Of course not.
If the Wii comes to completely dominate the industry, there's a good chance a lot of really first-rate, complicated, serious games will never be released, in favor of hundreds of Wii sports clones.
And speaking of understanding, I continue to not really understand the long-standing slashdot rhetorical device of creating hypothetical critics. Isn't enough to make a point without also going into a detailed description of the people who you think will inevitably attack your post? This practice seems most common when people take an extremely popular viewpoint, it's like they're so nervous about being in the majority, that they try to paint themselves as brave underdogs attacking the status quo.
95% of the people on slashdot seem to be rabid Nintendo-can-do-now-wrong Wii supporters, yet that 95% continues to insist that there's this huge horde of pro-Sony/MS fanboys, who never seem to actually show up.
Re:Cart, horse, etc (Score:3, Insightful)
The complete lack of online play is whats bothering me the most. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good single player game, like zelda, super paper mario ect. However after I beat the games they go back on the shelf and collect dust as have little reason to play them again. When looking for a Wii game that can hold my attention past the first runthru of single player they are no ware to be found. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing anything about it they cut online out of the new metroid and flat out ignore questions about downloadable content for any games. 3d party games seem to be waiting for nintendo to setup a xbox live or playstation network type system before making any online games. Its not like online is some new gimmick function of the xbox its been around sense dreamcast on consoles and PCs well before that
The plan is simple actually.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Finding a new audience is risky (Score:1, Insightful)
While you are searching for a new audience you may forget to keep the old one with you, and end up not finding that new audience after all.
The simple fact is that electronic gaming has far wider frontiers then is usually reported by the "hardcore" gaming press (Consoles and PC).
I know a girl that spends a lot of time gaming online. MMO's? FPS? No, a puzzle site with word puzzles. There is a whole forum around were they exchange new sites, discuss solutions etc etc. Very much like you would find around say the various ID engines even includng people building their own puzzles and sharing them.
BUT you will not find them at E3 or reviewed at any "regular" gaming site.
Tapping into this different audience may be what Nintendo is trying to do. Perhaps they just realize they cannot compete with the big boys for "harcore" games and know that they must try something different.
OR maybe, just maybe, Nintendo is being really clever here. Perhaps they want to have BOTH markets. Why exactly should the Wii be limited to only "hardcore" or "casual" games?
The PC has hardcore games off all sorts AND you can play all those thousands of flash games on it. For every PC used as a flightsim or a FPS or MMO there is a puzzle pirates PC.
If you ever hear someone talk about consoles being bigger then PC's in gaming, you know you are talking to a snob. Microsofts Solitaire IS a computer game and no conolse in the world can match those sales figures. Or for that matter phone sales.
I think Nintendo is just releasing games it thinks might make a profit. Some of them happen to be games that we do not usually see in 'hardcore' gaming circles. However they have always been around (Chess games for instance on various consoles, including Nintendo's)
So basically nothing new. Business as usuall except some idiot notices other games selling and thinks it is the revolution. It ain't.
Re:Cart, horse, etc (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if this was your point, but yes, for Z:TP, the Wiimote did seem bolted on. It simply replaced what would otherwise be button pushing, and really only checked for a "shake". It was a great game, of course, but didn't really exploit the Wiimote's abilities. (If they had made it so you have to "pull back" to load an arrow, then I might have swooned.)
Many games do seem to use the acceleromter stupidly, and in a way that looks artificial. But at the same time, I've seen some really good uses of it. Trauma Center uses it for a defibrilator and turning screws, which feels strangely realistic. Red Steel uses it for the blocking motion (which makes blocking more intuitive, since you instinctively raise your hands anyway) and for zooming in and slowing down time, which does feel like a genuine interface improvement. Rayman was also pretty creative in, for example, how you have to use the wiimote to "smack" bunnies or beat to a rhythm.
But even the pointer feature by itself tremendously expands the interface capabilities in games.
Re:Simple. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Simple. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nintendo are Smart (Score:3, Insightful)
When I was sick feverish stupor a few weeks ago, I played Catan for about 20 hours over a two day period. I played Luxor 2 this morning, and I am looking forward to some Bomberman tonight.
Nintendo fans are like Apple fans. They assume that their favorite company comes up with every concept they market. For instance, people who think that the browser on the iPhone is something wonderful and new have never seen Opera Mini.
The main difference with Nintendo right now is that they are PRIMARILY going after the casual market.
Wii brings back the fun to gaming... (Score:4, Insightful)
Lots of sour grapes going around in game writing (Score:5, Insightful)
I think Nintendo has done a very smart thing by leaving Sony and MS alone to play out the tragedy we've seen many times before (e.g. ATI vs. NVidia). Trying to win a 3-way graphics battle is a losing proposition, so what other direction can video gaming go in? How about instead of increasing the number of pixel shaders or whatever, increase the ways that people can control a game? In the same way that we have not seen what the PS3 is capable of with its nine graphics cores and blah blah blah, we have not seen the limits of what the Wii control scheme offers.
So now we have a lot of gamers who grew up on the PS2 who now have become site writers and game reviewers, and they just can not make sense of the Wii's appeal. They start to use epithets like Grandparents and throw a giggly aside at "Cookin' Mama" about how it's kind of cool but what's the point? The Wii has caused tremendous congnitive dissonance in the gaming industry and it just so happens that a lot of loud people are writing about it.
The Wii is as significant a transition as the move to D-button gamepad controllers (Nintendo again), and now all of these game writers who are dependent on their DualShock style controllers are pissed that FIFA 08 doesn't come out for months and months so they turn their frustration to the console that *is* getting popular and playable games throughout its launch honeymoon. PS3 and 360 people are stuck waiting for the next wave and convincing themselves they like to using motion sense mode in Motorstorm.
Re:I'm not so sure... (Score:4, Insightful)
As already pointed out, Mario, Zelda and Metroid games continue to be produced, and new games are being created constantly as well. (Brain Age comes to mind as a recent success in innovation that doesn't require odd hardware.)
The GameCube was so poorly-received because it tried to do the same thing as other consoles, but with much, much less power. It was like the Jr Olympics... Cute and mildly entertaining, but hardly as exciting as the real thing. The Wii returns to Nintendo's roots and offers gimmicky controllers (Robby the Robot? The Power Glove?) to enhance the gaming experience, instead of relying on flashy graphics.
I own all 3 current gen systems, and while I don't really have a 'favorite', the PS3 is my least favorite. So far, it's done nothing (game-wise) that the 360 hasn't. Maybe Little Big Planet and Echochrome will change that... They're the only thing in the near future that has my attention. And maybe more classic games will help me like it better, as well. They've got Jet Moto (definitely one of may all-time racing games) but they don't have anything else I want, yet. Persona would be awesome. I recently started playing it again, and it's about what I remembered... Poor interface, but has plot and some thought into the combat/contact system.
Of the remaining 2, the Wii is my favorite for light-hearted games, and the 360 for serious games. That's not saying much for the consoles themselves, though, as those kind of games just naturally gravitate that way.
Re:Nintendo is not neglecting its roots. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the same whenever Dvorak writes some sensationalist column about how Apple is going to be driven out of the industry or fail in some other manner. He's just trolling to get a few more page hits and ad revenue.
It's the same reason tabloids and other yellow journalism rags print the news they do. People are attracted to sensationalist crap and will pay money to read it.
I've heard this particular argument that the article presents at least two other times on Slashdot in the past month. Every time it's refuted by common sense thinking and posters pointing out evidence to the contrary. Everyone seems to confuse "expanding the market" with "neglecting the base." This article should be modded troll, because it really is one, and also redundant, because it's already cropped up a few times before. Just because some journalist couldn't think up a good idea for a decent article doesn't mean this tripe is newsworthy.
Maybe an age thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
The first thing I thought when I saw the Wiimote was how every arcade game I'd seen at bars in recent memory A) was based on something familiar to non-gamers (those fucking golf games), and B) had abandoned the joystick/multiple buttons control scheme. Nintendo may risk losing the basement dwellers, but it's a really smart bet on their part.
Re:Nintendo (Score:2, Insightful)
The opposite seems to be true (Score:5, Insightful)
What remakes? I'd love to get some Mario or Zelda remakes, but since Mario All Stars on the SNES, I have seen none.
If you mean to say that all Mario and Zelda games are alike, well, there's usually more difference between two Mario games than there is between to FPS from different franchises, so I don't understand the complaint. Apart from the main character and the fact that you can jump on stuff, there's no a whole lot of similarities between Super Mario Bros. and Mario Sunshine - and in those cases where Nintendo did go back to the roots with a new game (New Super Mario Bros, for exmple), it was very well received by gamers. If anything, Nintendo is not doing enough "retro games" in the vein of New Super Mario Bros.
Finally, I can't see how games like Zelda or Super Paper Mario would be better if they featured characters other than Link and Mario. Who cares? They're awesome games.
Re:I'm not so sure... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Nintendo are Smart (Score:2, Insightful)
Besides, the PS3 doesn't sell 400k every month. It did that much ONCE. Now it's at less than 100k.
Re:Nintendo is not neglecting its roots. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sure if the article submitter and the article writer are the same person (although the submitter is a tout from Angry Gamer obviously - AGFlamey? C'mon!). Still, the article itself is interesting and well written and the author is knowledgeable of the history of games. Perhaps his points are unoriginal and merely a rehash, but I don't keep up on the latest in gaming news and opinion, so it was still of interest to me.
The main thing that makes me doubt that AGFlamey and Lis Vender (the writer of the article in question) are the same person is the story summary's obligatory slashdot question (patent pending), "Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots?" The article makes no such claims, merely arguing that the Nintendo developers are weary of cranking out successive iterations of the cash cow titles. And logically, why would Nintendo neglect its cash cows? If a company is going to attempt to break new ground, it's going to need its established money makers to support that effort.
What the article does do is examine Nintendo's "new" strategy, and it argues that it's not new. Briefly mentioned as one of Nintendo's failures is the Power Pad accessory and its related games, but I would argue that while it might not have succeeded commercially, it represents Nintendo's willingness to stake out new territory (and not giving up when first efforts fail; is there a great conceptual difference between Family Fun Fitness and Wii Fitness?). Anyway, the theses of the article seem to be that 1) Nintendo has always been about just having fun, and 2) Nintendo has always been willing to stake out new territory based on thesis #1. In this sense, they are even more Apple than Apple. Apple's recent successes, the iPod and the iPhone (that might be a premature call*) are based on Apple's main thesis (ease of use), but Apple entered markets that already existed.
To return to your original complaint, bullshit sensationalism is an effect of so many voices clamoring for our attention. Sensationalism is nothing new. The problem arises when we are inundated by it as more and more take up this strategy for grabbing our attention. It's another tragedy of the commons, the commons in this case being our media space. I don't see any way to stop it other than to let it run its course. As more and more people become inured to sensationalism, other strategies will be adopted. (We're already seeing rudimentary developments of reputation systems, for example.)
* If I had use a bold exclamation point (i.e., iPhone!), we could call it a premature ejaculation.
Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm not so sure... (Score:4, Insightful)
Mal-2
Franchise Games vs. Their Characters (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm not so sure... (Score:5, Insightful)
> Yes.
IAAGD. (I am a Game Developer.) Having shipped a few games on various platforms (include the PS2), I would also agree it wasn't graphical power that made the PS2 successful. (Morrowind and Halo put the original XBox shaders to good use -- few other games did at the time.) No one really complained about the low polygon budget (or small texture sizes) in GTA. Everyone was having too much fun playing it.
My list would be:
0. Price Drop. When the PS2 dropped down to $299, that was the magic price point.
1. Games. Couple of simultaneous "hit" titles like GTA, GT3, Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, MGS2, Kingdom Hearts, ICO all helped cement its lead.
2. DVD -- The ability to also play DVD's without needing to spend any extra money (looking at you Microsoft) was also a factor, in addition to being able to play your games was a _huge_ draw. It was for me, until I could figure out which DVD was worth buying.
3. Backwards compatibility. You could still fire up your PS1 favorites.
It was a winning combination, that together made it (and still) very appealing.
Cheers
Re:Cart, horse, etc (Score:3, Insightful)
No, the hardcore gamers understand the new games perfectly well. They just don't like them, because they aren't meant for them. They still like the old way of playing games, and for better or worse Nintendo has changed that with the Wii. Don't be an asshole and claim like you're somehow smarter because you like the Wii better than somebody else. Different strokes and whatnot.
And the Wiimote *was* just a gimmick on Twilight Princess. The game was completely playable without it. It was hardly essential to the game, it was sort of tacked on at the end to make it a Wii game. That doesn't mean Twilight Princess sucked, far from it. It was a cool game, but I didn't even use the Wiimote. I preferred the GC controller.
Re:So that must be (Score:3, Insightful)
The difference is that with online play or at a lanparty, the otherwise meaningless repetition of playing through the same level over and over again, is made meaningful by having copious amounts of fresh meat, who will hopefully start behaving differently after I've nailed them in the head with an AK-47 for the third consecutive round.
Playing said level single player or against bots (as is the case with platformers like mario) is entirely pointless, unless it is to familiarize yourself with the level in order to "pwn some n00bs" at a later date.
Nintendo has repeatedly resisted and refused to incorporate online play as a component of their consoles and games. Yes I do own a Wii, but its collecting dust in my living room, the novelty wore off in about 2 weeks. Its modded and yes I do have a considerable amount of bandwidth with which to download wii games, but I can't even be bothered frankly.
My PS3 is only occasionally used right now (busy with work these few months) mainly to play Ninja Gaiden.