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Role Playing (Games)

World of Warcraft - Wrath of the Lich King Officially Announced 314

Posted by Zonk
from the you-gotta-love-the-death-knight dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Wrath of the Lich King is official! BlizzCon is in full swing, and celebrants there are already enjoying the Northrend-themed imagery. For a look at what's going on, Joystiq has a liveblog of the opening ceremony up. Games For Windows magazine, meanwhile, will feature WLK its next cover. The post on the 1up site has a number of details on the next expansion, including the introduction of the Death Knight, the first new class since WOW's launch 'World of WarCraft's first Hero Class is a plate-wearing tank/DPS hybrid that works a little something like this: When players hit level 80, they'll be able to embark on a quest (similar in difficulty to the Warlock's epic mount quest, back before the level cap was raised to 70) that unlocks the ability to create a Death Knight character. The Death Knight starts at a high level (somewhere around 60 or 70, though Blizzard isn't certain yet), so you won't have to grind your way back up all over again. It's intended as an alternative, advanced class for end-game use only.'."
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World of Warcraft - Wrath of the Lich King Officially Announced

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  • wow (Score:2, Interesting)

    by quaketripp (621850)
    an alternative, high-end crack-cocaine for more advanced fiends.
  • So more grind... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Number13 (641387) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:28PM (#20105767)
    The old EQ Skinner Box model strikes again. Every year or so, release an expansion that completely invalids any progress made in the last expansion. Problem is, it works as a money making venture, so other games follow the same suit rather than attempting to create games where content is for fun rather than for grind.
    • by Metasquares (555685) <slashdot.metasquared@com> on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:31PM (#20105815) Homepage
      In the long run, however, it tends to kill the game.
      • by Tackhead (54550) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:34PM (#20105877)
        > The old EQ Skinner Box model strikes again. Every year or so, release an expansion that completely invalids any progress made in the last expansion. Problem is, it works as a money making venture, so other games follow the same suit rather than attempting to create games where content is for fun rather than for grind
        >
        >In the long run, however, it tends to kill the game.

        "How do you kill that which has no life?"

        Easy. Release an expansion pack for Star Wars Galaxies.

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by LKM (227954)

          "How do you kill that which has no life?"

          Just take the scroll out of its head, I guess.

    • by shakingbrave (1136495) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:33PM (#20105863)
      /sigh You do realize that the best geared guilds progress the fastest in the next expansion because they're the best geared for it. Granted they're going to upgrade their gear as they go, but they start with a significant advantage. So how is that "invalidating any progress" they made? If anything WoW is better than any other MMO I've played (EQ blaaah) for the sheer fact that they update content/balance/etc the game so much. And they do a bunch of it for "free" as well (read: you don't have to buy another expansion), they've released some monster patches. And also, creating a class that starts at lvl 60 or 70 is taking away the grind and adding to the fun, so I don't get that remark either???
      • Re:So more grind... (Score:5, Informative)

        by zerocool^ (112121) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:44PM (#20106035) Homepage Journal

        If anything WoW is better than any other MMO I've played (EQ blaaah) for the sheer fact that they update content/balance/etc the game so much. And they do a bunch of it for "free" as well (read: you don't have to buy another expansion), they've released some monster patches.

        Welcome, from those of us at eve-online.

        All our expansions and patches are free. No stringing people along waiting for the expansion. Also, I think I might have paid $20 for the game, which included the first month fee (usually $15).

        • God isn't it great?
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Blakey Rat (99501)
          Yes, but in WOW you can do things other than mining in the first 10 hours of gameplay. It takes a certain kind of personality to play EVE for longer than a few hours.
        • Re:So more grind... (Score:5, Interesting)

          by ameoba (173803) on Friday August 03, 2007 @10:27PM (#20110107)
          ...as long as you're willing to start playing a game where you know'll forever be the bitch of some guy that's been playing since launch. At least WOW gives you a realistic shot at catching up with The Big Kids.

          If I wanted that kind of depressing reality, I wouldn't need to be playing games.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by toleraen (831634)
        The players that raid 40+ hours a week, that progress the fastest, tend to make up a very low % of the population. Most people haven't made it all the way through the last expansion, so any work they made towards getting to "the end" becomes moot, because they'll have to start all over again on the new, improved, better loot content. For people with not that much time, it sucks.

        It goes the other way too, with people who did raid 40+ hours a week, only to find their full suit of level 60 purples get shown
        • by MBGMorden (803437)

          It goes the other way too, with people who did raid 40+ hours a week, only to find their full suit of level 60 purples get shown up by BC green loot you can find at the AH for 10G.

          Not to mention the fact that if you step away from the game for a while, say a year or so because you need a break, you're basically obsoleted when you come back, and have to bust your butt to become competitive (at Raiding or PVP) again.

          No other real world hobby is like that. I have off and on spells where I get tired of one or the other, but aside from gaming I fish, target shoot, fence, fly, and build models. If I get tired of fencing and decide to take a break for a year or two, then when I come back

          • by egburr (141740)
            I took a year break from playing, knowing that my character would be there when I came back, if I decided to. When I did decide to come back, I would have been very upset if my character had been deleted, and would have changed my mind right then. The threat to delete my character would not keep me paying when I'm not playing; it would keep me frem returning.
          • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

            "and have to bust your butt to become competitive (at Raiding or PVP) again."

            Rigghhttttttttt.

            This weekend is AV weekend. You could come back with nothing on and this weekend play hardcore for 2 days, work your butt off, and have a TON of epic gear from it. Prolly like 5 pieces worth if you played all day saturday and sunday. That isn't even counting friday and monday which are still double honor. Av weekend comes around regularly.

            Not to mention quests you can do in netherstorm to get blues and greens th
        • Define "All the way through." I find it hard to play 10 hours a week (an hour a day is about all I can do these days), and I've had two 70's for months. If you're counting only from people who have a full set of Tier 4, or arena gear, then I'd argue that hardly anyone is "finished".

          As far as getting to 70, even a casual player has had enough time to do that by now.

          By the time this expansion actually comes out (I'd lay money on something like Q1 '09, though I bet they'll shoot for Q4 '08) people will be pret
          • by toleraen (831634)

            Most people haven't made it all the way through the last expansion

            If you're counting only from people who have a full set of Tier 4, or arena gear, then I'd argue that hardly anyone is "finished".

            Then we're in agreement.

            I'd guess that they'd be further along with the next expansion though. I'd put my money on Q2 2008. I know they put two years between the original game and the first expansion, but Blizzard can't really wait another two years between expansions. There are just too many MMOs coming out between now and late 08 to keep people playing that long.

            • Yea, BC kept me busy for a while, but once I got done leveling my 60's I pretty much lost interest. Lack of 40 man raid content actually worked against me, because I find that a lot more interesting than the 10 man stuff which is more common in BC.

              I so seldom max out my characters in terms of gear that it would be easy to say that I'd never "finished" a MMO.
            • by paitre (32242)
              Apparently one of the German leaks earlier this week had it as Q1 2008. I, personally, am thinking mid to late Q1 at the earliest - this ExPac has been in the works since about the time TBC was announced, if not earlier.

              More, I'd wager that they already have the third expac through the planning and beginning initial implementation, including artists going nuts.

              Tier 4? Please. Tier 4 is easy. I'm not even in a hardcore guild and we have a number of people at 4/5 Tier 4. Only reason I'm not is I've been skipp
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by MLS100 (1073958)
          I think that is kind of what they're aiming for:

          Reset the hardcore people and give them another unattainable goal to strive for while the coders are hard at work on the next expansion.

          Meanwhile the softcore players who haven't completed all the endgame stuff in the last expansion are given a chance to attain items of comparable power with a small commitment (new expansion green in AH for 10g that shows up last expansion epics).

          This effectively allows the casual player to begin tackling higher content withou
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        Likewise, welcome from those of us at City of Heroes. Free updated and expansions save City of Villains, which is pretty much a new game entirely, and some monster issues including the latest Rikti invasion.
      • From my experience on a medium population server, the initial areas at the expansion were a giant cluster of 50 people grinding on the same quest mobs. Those best geared will move through the expansion material fastest, but really it's more of a function of organization and willingness to put in the hours to move through the leveling content and the various keying quests for raids. If you have ok lvl 70 gear, and decide you want to go balls deep and get into the top tier guilds for the next expansion, you
    • Re:So more grind... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Zironic (1112127) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:34PM (#20105885)
      Since you can't create content faster then people use it up you have to create content that has to be re doable (grinding). Blizzard has at least made their grinding more enjoyable then the other MMO's I've tried so far.

      However at the moment it might seem that Blizzard is releasing new content a bit fast, I've yet to decide if that's a good or bad thing.
    • Problem is, it works as a money making venture, so other games follow the same suit rather than attempting to create games where content is for fun rather than for grind.

      The solution to your problem is word it so that it seems new and exciting instead of rehashing what you've just done (and redone).

      It gets old but most people don't realize this until after they've already gone through it a couple of times. The same can be said for most expansion packs MMORPG or not.

      And I'll be honest, when creating a ti
    • Re:So more grind... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by everphilski (877346) on Friday August 03, 2007 @04:01PM (#20106277) Journal
      Every year or so, release an expansion that completely invalids any progress made in the last expansion.

      More than once a year. We are running on 14 expansions in 8 years. But I disagree. Have you ever played EQ? There are basically 3 things that can get added in any given expansion, beyond land mass
      1) more gear / items
      2) Level cap increase
      3) More Alternate Advancement points available to purchase
      You always get 1. 2 happens every other or every third expansion. 3 happens about out of cycle from 2, it seems. You are probably complaining because a new expansion invalidates your gear. Well suck it up. You are no less efficient a day after the new expansion grinding the old mobs, than you were the day before. But to enter the new areas, yes, it will be a challenge. Cry me a river.

      Raising the level caps? That's just a part of life. Without that, the game stagnates. Again, you can cry me a river and I won't care.

      Now, here is the beauty of Everquest, in my opinion. AA's. They give you a reason to live after you hit max level. You can funnel your experiance from grinding into ability points. These give you abilities not unlike talents in WoW, but a hell of a lot more of them. And you aren't restricted in how many you can obtain.
      Endless treadmill? Only if you make it such.
    • You say that like it's a bad thing. Nine million people would disagree.

      Personally I love what they're doing with WoW. I don't play it myself, but it gives Blizzard a license to print money, which means they have an effectively limitless supply of cash to pour into other ventures.
  • Casual gamers? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Andrew Nagy (985144) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:31PM (#20105819) Homepage Journal
    It's intended as an alternative, advanced class for end-game use only.

    I feel a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of casual gamers suddenly cried out in terror, and then were suddenly silenced.

    Seriously, though. I hear people on WoW complaining about "the grind" which to me is the best part. I like questing from 1 to 70. I like experiencing the story and still being able to play with friends if I want. If they're going to start only catering to the "end-game" users, maybe my WoW time is coming to an end. Full time job, side consultant jobs, a wife, a kid on the way, and everything else just doesn't leave a lot of room for a raid schedule.
    • Re:Casual gamers? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SatanicPuppy (611928) * <`moc.liamg' `ta' `yppupcinataS'> on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:44PM (#20106033) Journal
      I don't think it means that really. I think what it's actually for is for people like you (and me) who get to 80 and go, "Well great! Now what the fuck do I do?" Now there is an answer: "Switch to death knight (or whatever the frilly alliance equivalent will end up being), and then level back up to 80!" Leveling is always rife with solo content, so you'd have the fun of switching your class, and doing some more solo play, rather than the eternal instance/raid grind.

      Of course, if you're a quest-a-holic this could be an issue because if you've done all the quests, you might have to grind your way back to 80 and that would suck.
    • I feel they've done a good job balancing it up to this point and I don't see any reason to think they won't continue to do so. My father-in-law has gone solo all the way up to 65 the last I heard.
    • by Knara (9377)
      Well, it remains to be seen how they'll handle the 70-80 stuff. BC added some killer quest content for the BE's and Drae (mostly 1-20 but some elsewhere), so I can't imagine that you wouldn't be able to quest from 70 to 80.
    • Re:Casual gamers? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Brownstar (139242) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:47PM (#20106075)
      End Game != raiding or even non-casual.

      And for someone like you, that enjoys leveling toons, this sounds like a great addition.

      Get to level 80 with your toon, and you unlock the ability to level another toon from 60 to 80, allowing you to see in new content you might have missed in the XPAC with your first toon.
    • Re:Casual gamers? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Chris Burke (6130) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:50PM (#20106111) Homepage
      Seriously, though. I hear people on WoW complaining about "the grind" which to me is the best part. I like questing from 1 to 70.

      Uh, yeah, I guess some people complain about the leveling "grind", but really WoW has one of the nicest leveling phases, replete with quests and things to do to fit a variety of playstyles.

      "The grind" that everyone complains about is the one you do after reaching the level cap. The endless, endless rep grinding for faction rewards, heroic instance keys, etc etc. And actually despite there being more reps to grind, they aren't as bad as pre-expansion when the lvl 60 rep grinds were horrible time sinks of repetitive killing. Grinding Cenarian Hold or Argent Dawn rep was as arduous as the 1-60 leveling process, but much, much more boring. Or remember when you got to go farm for cloth so that other people could get to run a raid instance? That's what people complain about.

      The leveling "grind" is great for casuals. It's the top-level content that at best tolerates casuals by giving them mindless repetitive tasks to perform.
      • Re:Casual gamers? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Archimonde (668883) on Friday August 03, 2007 @05:10PM (#20107217) Homepage
        Uh, yeah, I guess some people complain about the leveling "grind", but really WoW has one of the nicest leveling phases, replete with quests and things to do to fit a variety of playstyles.

        What are you talking about? Are we playing the same game*? Leveling is the most boring part of the game period. Sure, leveling your first character can be fun, but with every other character you end up doing the same boring quests, killing the same monsters etc. And what play styles? There is only one play style when leveling. Grinding by killing monsters. Endless fun.
        Not.

        "The grind" that everyone complains about is the one you do after reaching the level cap.

        Yes and no. The grind is omnipresent before and after level 70. No one can deny that.

        Or remember when you got to go farm for cloth so that other people could get to run a raid instance? That's what people complain about.

        They kinda complain about that but not as much 1-70 grind. It is horrible. But well, people complain about everything in WoW (many of those complaints do have merit though), but saying that leveling is great (as in fun) part of the game is like saying that working on the assembly line is the most interesting job in the world.

        The leveling "grind" is great for casuals.

        Yes it is a grind, and yes it the worst part of WoW.

        * I did quit, before I ruined my life.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Chris Burke (6130)
          That's funny, I found leveling to be lots of fun. Mostly because while yes you are killing lots of monsters (duh i wouldn't be playing a combat-based rpg if that wasn't what I wanted to do) it comes in the form of quests where you go after -different- monsters, or you have to infiltrate some hideout to find a specific named monster, or if you can find a group you can go level in instances.

          If you can't see any difference between grinding and any form of gameplay that involves killing monsters, then it doesn
          • I think that one of the flaws is that the world is too small. In fact, it's not a world at all. It's a theme park. You could potentially walk every square inch of it, and do every quest there is.

            They can't even do "find the" quests at all because after the fourth person that finds it is going to post the exact location on a web forum somewhere.

            If your character walks into a tavern bragging about killing the king of the banditos and waving his severed head about, everyone else in that tavern can pull out
          • it comes in the form of quests where you go after -different- monsters

            So you can tell me where one can find some other "versions" of King Bangalash? You missed my point. With all your characters you killed King Bangalash exactly the same number of times (or even more). How that can be fun? Or killing 3x30 of his "lesser" clones? I get bored to the tears.

            I mean you're really comparing the wide variety of environments and tasks you're asked to do to level from 1-70, to the non-stop months-after-months killing
    • by Himring (646324)
      Plus, if you play wow you're supporting the terrorists [slashdot.org].

      Or, heck, for that matter, might be one....

    • by Sparr0 (451780)

      I like questing from 1 to 70.

      When I played WoW (for years, years ago), this was the single biggest appeal it held over other games. I am sure this is part of its enduring popularity. WoW is the only MMORPG where you can progress to the level cap without ever fighting the same monsters for more than an hour, and without doing the same (or pseudo randomly not-the-same) quests more than once. There is so much more STORY than in any other game, and it is laid out in a well designed balance including branches and just enough linearity t

    • by Ogive17 (691899)
      I enjoyed the grind the first time I did it (1-60), the quest line was enjoyable. I hated the grind from 61-70... there was one or two good quest story lines, but most of it bored me.

      I'm tired of Blizzard's constant class tweaks which always screws up the balance.. makes 2 classes godlike and 2 classes worthless... and now they want hero classes.. sigh... not only that but they won't be easy to achieve.

      I'll probably be done with WoW in 2 months when my account expires. I know a number of people who
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by steveo777 (183629)
      KIDS on the way?

      Either your wife is having twins, you're adopting, or you, my friend, have been working a different kind of "consultant jobs".

    • I hear people on WoW complaining about "the grind" which to me is the best part. I like questing from 1 to 70. I like experiencing the story and still being able to play with friends if I want

      The best part you say? So, and I'm not going to exaggerate here, you like to:

      Go to place P and kill N number of mobs until you get M number of drops D?
      Take item I and take it to the place P.

      And doing that same old scheme for hundreds of times, doing the same quests with all your characters, killing the same mobs, going
  • Another hybrid.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cthulu_mt (1124113) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:34PM (#20105873)
    Blizzard already did a poor job making the current hybrid classes playable. I don't think another one will improve the game.
    • by Zironic (1112127)
      hmm, arn't there already 2 Tank/DPS hybrids called Paladin and Warrior?

      I would have expected the Death Knight to be a melee plate dps/debuff class.
      • Three. You forgot the druid.
        • druid has never been a hybrid. Was not in EQ, or EQ2, is not in WoW.

          What makes a paladin a hybrid is the fact that it is literally, half warrior, half cleric. Gimped at both.

          And the DK, I presume, will be the equivalent of EQ's shadowknight, half warrior, half necromancer.
          • What else are you going to call them? They're either strong melee with weak healing/spell dps, strong spell dps with medium healing and weak melee, or strong healing with weak melee/spell dps.

            I'd say there are three actual hybrid classes in WoW: Druid, Shaman, and Paladin (don't know where 'warrior' came from above). All three of them can be accurately described as "Melee capable spellcasters with healing abilities."
            • spellcaster.
              and yes, Warrior is not a hybrid.
              • No way. Feral spec druids are amazing at melee; they're the only class in the game that can be specced for melee dps and tanking at the same time. They actually caught a tanking nerf in the first BC patch because they were out-tanking Warriors in the new instances, and even after it, you could tank raid instances. Cat form isn't as high-powered as bear, but it's still pretty nasty if you've got decent gear, and you can switch back and forth between them pretty much at will because your casting abilities wil
                • yeah, and what do they cast to shift? a spell. It's a spell modification to the base character. A hybrid would natively have the statistics of the tank they are inheriting from, plus spell casting abilities from the caster they are inheriting from. A druid is a caster, who can cast a spell that makes him look like a tank, but only while that spell is active. That spell may modify statistics, but it is still a spell and after the spell wears off the druid is still a leather wearing caster. See the difference
                  • That's not really the way it works in WoW; it's more like you're a shapeshifter who can cast spells. All the shapeshifting abilities use mana, but they're not interruptable, they're not dispellable, and they don't have duration, which makes them different from every other spell in the game.

                    If that's the way you want to define hybrid though, I'm fine with that for the purposes of discussion.
          • by paitre (32242)
            Bwah?
            Half warrior/Half cleric and gimped at both?

            So I guess it's my imagination that I, a 70 Holy-spec (45/16) Paladin, was at the top of the heal meters against Magtheridon last night, right? I guess it's my imagination that the same is almost universally true in general, right?

            Gimp cleric, my ass.
            • sure, if specced holy, but you can't tank worth a shit :P

              What I was saying is that a hybrid class is a compromise of the two classes it is inheriting from.
        • by Zironic (1112127)
          Druids are not tank/dps hybrids though, they're more like tank/healing hybrids with some token dps. While a dps paladin can actually be useful I just /laugh in the general direction of any moonkin.
          • They do all right in pvp...Moonkin form being about the equivalent of plate armor, it makes them by far one of the most durable spellcasters, so even though you're not putting out the spell dps of a lock or a mage, you do pretty well against melee classes and hunters.

            For raids though, you're right; unless their gear is off the chart, it's not worth having one around if they're not tanking/healing.
      • by faloi (738831)
        I haven't played in a while, so maybe they fixed it up some... But even when my Warlock had finally made it near 70 (got burned out before I finished the last two levels), playing the debuff class, I really didn't have much in the way of debuffs. At least that were really worth casting, and certainly not worth trying to stack.
      • I'm guessing that the Death Knight would be a cross between a Warrior and a Rogue. A Paladin is kinda a hybrid between and Warrior and a Priest.
        • by Zironic (1112127)
          Wouldn't Warrior/Warlock make a lot more sense considering it's a Death Knight and not a blade master.
          • by paitre (32242)
            Try Paladin/Warlock, and you'll be a lot closer.

            Remember, it's a plate -caster-. They're not going to suddenly make a warrior analogue into a caster - it's a non sequitor.
            • by Zironic (1112127)
              Well, Death Knights are defined as the opposite of paladins. They should have mostly the same spells as the paladins do only opposite, harming instead of healing, stealing life from allies etc. I wonder if they dare give them that kind of abilities though considering the griefing factor.

              Anyhow, Paladins are defined as Warrior/Priest so exchanging the Priest for Warlock should get you a Death Knight. Especially considering that the power of animating the dead is demonic.
      • Paladin? A DPS class? Only in their own twisted, plate-covered heads, dear.
        • by Zironic (1112127)
          We used to have a paladin topping the damage meters in one of my former raiding guilds, I wouldn't have acknowledged the possibility before I saw it.
        • With a retribution spec and decent gear, you can do pretty well. The gear is critical though; you need seriously decent stuff to be able to really be dps competitive...Lot of spell damage and +crit.

          Still, when they have all that, you'd be surprised at how nasty they can be. Hardly any class has Holy resistance, so their damage isn't mitigated at all.
  • Levelling (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Colin Smith (2679) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:40PM (#20105967)
    Reminds me of geocentrism. Works for a while but the exceptions and problems build until it's over complex and unwieldy.
     
    • by node 3 (115640)

      Works for a while but the exceptions and problems build until it's over complex and unwieldy.
      Exactly like your joke.
  • Arthas!!!

    PS - The lameness filter won't let me shout in caps.
  • Mid Level Content (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Idylwyld (324288) <aehaar@h[ ]ail.com ['otm' in gap]> on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:50PM (#20106103)
    WTF? So we got new early game and end game content in BC which was great. But where's the love for the mid levellers?

    And what's up with an "unlockable" end game class? Too lazy to balance the new class all the way through?
    • Too lazy to balance the new class all the way through?

      Well, I for one am too lazy to level a whole new character up to level 70, but it would be nice to have another one to play. Especially as they raise the level cap it becomes more and more time consuming to create a new character that can participate in the endgame, which is where a lot of the new content is focused.

      It makes sense as they bring us farther from level one to give more options for expanding your gameplay without starting all the way f

  • Isn't that what Mortal Strike or Fury warriors were before they got smacked with the nerf bat?
  • Eh?

    That's how it reads to me, anyway.

    Obviously, I'm not much of a gamer.
  • Hurry up with the Emerald Dream.
  • by abigsmurf (919188) on Friday August 03, 2007 @03:55PM (#20106185)
    Again with the focus on End game and a 10 level rise. Not only will it now take months for the average gamer to reach endgame, they'll have to deal with the broken level 70 content as well as the broken level 60 content. I'm sure lots of people who started from scratch will remember the 'fun' of spending 500g leveling craft from 290-300 so you can then craft BC stuff, have class quests which require trying to find people willing to spend 4 hours in an instance with obsolete goods. With people leveling 60-70 post 2nd expansion they'll probably have all the fun of rep grinding as well as the empty instances they need to complete. Blizzard focus on endgame and ignore everything else. WoW is crying out for an anti-DPS class that can take out rogues and mages and have a strong focus on debuffs (spell breakers perhaps) but the devs are too lazy to balance level 1-70 content for a new class. Instead they're going the easy route and making endgame only classes
    • by Renraku (518261)
      If they'd make all pre-BC instances non-elite and not that difficult it would make the game SO much more fun for pre-60s.
      • What would be the point then?

        Both your post and the parent above you miss the point: It's supposed to be hard.

        If you could blow through an instance with no effort, then what satisfaction would you get from doing it? Gear? Everyone else would have the same gear. Experience? Everyone else would have the same experience. It would crazy boring.

        If you could level blacksmithing (I assume that's what the g-parent was talking about; the eternal instance-only iron grind) as easily as herbalism, no one would want to
      • I wish they would do the opposite and make pre-60 instances available with heroic modes.

        Heroic VC? Hell yeah!
    • by Kjella (173770) on Friday August 03, 2007 @05:11PM (#20107237) Homepage
      No, players don't learn. Hint: You're never ever going to be that überhero with all maxed skills and equipment unless you grind like crazy. And a little while after that, we'll release a new expansion with new levels, new equipment which you'll have to continue to grind if you want to stay on top. It's the pot of gold that keeps moving away as you approach it, like the frigging rainbow. And the players say "Thank you, may I have another please?" because Blizzard recently announced they were up to NINE million subscribers, which either means they have a) high turnover and tens of millions have tried it or b) they keep coming back for more, and I believe in b).

      I have two friends that are pretty much the archetypes of WoW. One is a father of one (soon two), very relaxed about it all and playing it because he's having a good time. He'll do just fine. The other... well, he seems to want to "win" Wow, grinding away like crazy. You should almost think having a mega-character in WoW was some sort of investment, when you talk to him. Perhaps if you sold your account you'd get a pittance, but more likely he'll just keep it until it's no longer worth much - an expansion later and it won't be. I know hobbies don't need to be "productive", but something is wrong when you talk about it as if it were and it isn't. I mean, one thing is if you're a craftsman and make items - real, permanent and durable. Another is whatever you crafted in WoW which is a collection of pixels that'll be obsolete and worthless in a while, and meaningless if you quit WoW.
  • If so, you'll rune the day I got hold of my sword!

    Quite frankly, I find the lower level quests far more interesting.
  • Cue excitement in... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by riffzifnab (449869)
    3...2...1... blech

    I used to play wow (lvl 70 warrior, lvl 70 priest) for a couple of years. Guild raided MC & BWL back before TBC dropped so I have seen a good part of the content. I let my subscription lapse a couple months ago because it just wasn't fun and exciting anymore. I was wondering if the new xpack would be interesting enough to get mt to resubscribe. I guess not. Oh well, on to bigger and better things.

    So long and thanks for all the epics.
  • by WillAffleckUW (858324) on Friday August 03, 2007 @04:24PM (#20106615) Homepage Journal
    Newspaper reporters - you start gathering news items, become a town crier when not out in the field.

    Battlefield surgeons - you go into the arenas not for Honor from killing but Honor from saving lives - and the chance for really neat medical equipment.

    Philosophers - look, noone knows what they do anyway, even if one of my Ph.D. friends who discovered most of the Tuberculosis infection mechanisms got a degree in that, so WoW could make almost anything up about this and get away with it.

    Bard - songs, stories, travelling to distant lands to get new songs and musical instruments, and so on, hanging out in bars, what more can one ask - also raises morale for parties, so people let you tag along.

    Things like this that casual gamers could play and feel they are progressing no matter what else goes on.
    • Well, is it so much to ask of Blizzard to just give some real casual content or just even a playing field for them?

      To make myself clear, I liked playing my warlock, rogue, mage and druid. I always preferred pvp, but after hitting level 60 or 70 and doing battlegrounds after a while you just get bored or frustrated with another players who mow you down just because they have much much better gear than you. So how that could be solved? They should open special servers where everyone have basically the same ge
      • I agree, it would be nice to have a casual class or two, designed for people who aren't into grinds and quite frankly don't have the time.

        Besides, gramps might like to play as a wandering minstrel bard, even having to tag along on a raid to keep up everyone's morale scores.
  • reminds me of Bart Simpson's Shadow Knight [youtube.com].
  • by juuri (7678) on Friday August 03, 2007 @05:55PM (#20107851) Homepage
    A lot of posters seem to miss what I feel was the true saving grace of WoW, heroic mode dungeons. It's no secret that once you hit 70 and gear up, if you aren't a blubbering moron WoW becomes obvious for how simple it is. If you have been gaming for years, the only challenge you might find is rolling with a crappy group or some pvp encounters. Before BC you could be a *really* good WoW player but unless you raided you were essentially shut out from some of the best gear and by proxy were at a disadvantage in pvp (unless you were willing to grind insane amounts of time).

    Heroic content, get this, can actually be quite hard. The concept at first seems flawed. "Oh boy monsters that can one shot people and are higher level, woopity." But the reality is that it forces each member of a 5 man group to be competent and for many of the more difficult encounters actually skilled. Because of the difficulty a 5 man player, non-raider, who only plays a few hours a week can actually attain gear on par with people who do raid days a week. Is this fair? In my opinion it is, the challenge of most raid content is learning the encounter and the logistics involved. The challenge in heroic 5 man content is each player making very few mistakes over the course of an entire run and playing their class and talent spec extremely well.

    Heroics aren't all perfect but as a first go they show a real understanding on Blizzard's part that players can be rewarded for skill and not just grinding/time invested. One of the biggest flaws is the rep requirements for running them, while normal questing will get you close on a few of them, some do require you to go out of your way to achieve. In addition it is possible to "wipe" your way through content if your group sucks, it takes forever and costs a fortune in repairs, but it is possible.

    I've raided in WoW and found it to be lacking, learning an encounter is fun and the first few kills are thrilling, but the time investment is quite insane. The same thrill comes to me from a really good heroic run, say one where everyone is top notch and you blow through a place with no deaths at a blistering pace.

    WoW isn't perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better since BC. If the same level of improvement comes with the next expansion it will be very hard for anything other than "tiredness of the story/world/lore" to unseat them as #1 in America.

  • by Domini (103836) <lailoken@gmail.com> on Friday August 03, 2007 @09:32PM (#20109739) Journal
    I remember all the cool dungeons, the paced Strat UD, the sprawling and details BRD, the interesting and varied UBRS, the cool ZG and not to mention Scholo, AQ20, AQ40, BWL and Naxx.

    Then came the BC expansion just as I was about to at least finish these dungeons and everyone ran onto the new higher level green BC gear and I could not get people to run these old instances anymore (and who could blame them... it was too easy and the items were lame for BC players)

    All of these instances were basically rendered useless... there is no point in them other than a brief popping into them during the brief 59-61 period.

    I am a late-game content player, but I still love the grind and questing... the grind and questing has not been affected by this and is still fun.

    Now comes a new expansion which is basically going to render all these lvl 70 dungeons useless JUST as we (our guild) barely finished Kara. Not even started on any of the serious dungeons because we were not ready.

    So now I must pay because they are *replacing* a lot of content with new content? (Sure they do add a little as well...) It does not seem fair. And not paying and staying at lvl 70 until I can finish Kara lvl 70 is not an option because there will be no-one else to play along with.

    Yea, perhaps it's time to have a look at Lord of the Rings Online... or go back to playing Diablo II.

    Hehe...

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