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Role Playing (Games)

MMORPG Used to Model Real World Disease 105

Posted by Zonk
from the zul-gurub-still-seeing-some-use-after-bc dept.
Oxygen99 writes "The Times is reporting on a paper by researchers in the US who argue that the spread of 'corrupted blood' in World of Warcraft might provide clues to the way a real world population would cope with the prospect of a global pandemic. In the study, to be published in The Lancet next month, Professor Lofgren of Rutgers University and Professor Fefferman of Tufts University, suggest that: 'If, God forbid, a disease broke out in London, you could see what would happen if people were told immediately of the risk. Would there be panic and chaos, or would it allow them to psychologically accept the danger and act accordingly? What would happen if we made people feel too reassured? These are all things that have a great impact on the number of people who would be affected. They are also things we just don't know, so [virtual games] could be of great value in helping us understand what their true emotional responses would be.'"
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MMORPG Used to Model Real World Disease

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  • "You could see what would happen if people were told immediately of the risk." Drink heal pots and hearth?
  • I remember that (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Pojut (1027544) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:36AM (#20304395) Homepage
    I remember when that shit was going on in WoW...it was insane people were dropping like flies. Very much like the scene in 28 weeks later when everyone is locked in a room and they are slowly overtaken by infection.

    You could literally stand on top of the bank in Org and watch the disease spread. It was actually a bit terrifying.
    • Except they lost nothing of value, as deaths in WoW have little impact.

      Now, a virus infecting your flight control systems in EVE, _that_ would be terrifying.
      • Re:I remember that (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Pojut (1027544) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:53AM (#20304645) Homepage
        Yeah, but you also have to look at the demographic that WoW was/is trying to reach compared to who Eve is trying to reach. WoW was designed so that yes, you have to put in many MANY hours to get to the endgame, but you still feel like you accomplished SOMETHING even if you logged in for only an hour.

        Eve, as amazing of a game as it is (and it really is an amazing game) requires at least a few hours per sitting to really feel worth it (similar to everquest) It's designed with a different type of gamer in mind (whereas WoW serves to try to suck in both gamers and non-gamers alike, hence it's "dumbed-down" gameplay)
        • It depends very much on your style of play.

          Eve was the first MMORPG I found that had the kind of "pick up and play" where you could literally jump into some action for a few minutes, accomplish something, and be done with it. Doing a mission doesn't take more than an hour usually; camping a gate, mining for ore, shooting at NPCs can fill half an hour; checking market listings or changing skill training (which is done realtime, no grinding necessary to advance) can be done in minutes.

          There are large scale f
          • by Pojut (1027544)

            I'd say that the two minutes it takes to set a skill to train up while you go off to watch a movie

            Beh, this was one of the major problems I had with Star Wars Galaxies...set up a macro to mine shit and just walk away...blech.

            I don't like the idea of a game that I can play without actually being there to play it. I understand that with games that have that mechanism built-in, it's almost required in order to really get a good foothold on things...but still, I really don't like that. In my mind, it kinda de

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by Knara (9377)

              disclaimer: i've played EVE on and off for years

              In my mind, *the* most important aspect of EVE's skill training system is that it pretty much destroys the ability of a 13 year old with no responsibilities in real life to powerlevel to the top of the game in a few days.

              Make no mistake, macroing your way to resource acquisition ("macro mining" for example) is discouraged (and not-infrequently those engaged in the practice can be harassed and profited *from* -- by stealing their ill-gotten gains, for example

              • Agreed. I'll probably get back in if a game comes out that doesn't rely on d20 style mechanics.
              • I'm glad you brought this up.

                I play both Eve & WoW - one thing I've noticed in Eve is that the younger players are so unfocused that they do some of the most retarded shit I've ever seen in a game. I rolled a new character about 3 weeks ago and it has more focused combat skills than a 13 year old player in my corp who's been playing for 3 months. He has 151 skills vs my 50, he has 2m SP vs my 1.5m.

                To me, comparing WoW & Eve is just not possible - the games are so vastly different that even the menti
            • Except that the game grinds experience for you, automagically, no hax needed.

              Money is a different story. That you still have to *earn*
            • > Beh, this was one of the major problems I had with Star Wars Galaxies...set
              > up a macro to mine shit and just walk away...blech. ...because it ain't Star Wars unless you're sitting there with a hammer chisling away at a rock for half an hour, rather than having a purchased droid do it.

              The only interesting thing about that game was the dancer class. I was also a second-rate pistoleer, but I had my sliced Naboobian pew-pew, so I was happy.

              Then the reboot left me with no way to use that pistol anymore
            • I think it's much better than wasting hours killing NPCs that you already know you will be able to kill, all it takes is time. I take it you also prefer to grow your own food in your back garden, and generate all your own electricity from a dynamo on your exercise-bike (which you built yourself by refining the metal-ore, etc etc :P)? I do play one MMORPG just now, and I do put in the grinding time on occasion just for something to do, but I much prefer games where the skill is actually the skill of the play
          • which is done realtime, no grinding necessary to advance

            Eve has the worst grinding of any MMO I have tried to date. I had to grind asteroids and missions for a month before I could even afford anything interesting. Then I went and lost my new-fangled cruiser the very next week to some griefer. At least you don't lose levels or gear in WoW...

            But I guess that's what makes Eve unique. You can always be certain that your victim in PvP just lost weeks/months of progress, and I'm sure that appeals to hardcore ga

            • Sounds more like Ultima Online, where the developers are more interested in catering to the 12 year old packs of PvP predators than to any kind of roleplayer or RTS or adventure lover.

              As long as a steady stream of unwary newcomers comes in to keep up the interest of the long-term gankers, their business model is satisfied. End of story. Good day.
      • EvE would actually be a better simulation of the world compared to WoW.

        First: Larger world. WoW is, at best, the equivalent of Japan in terms of size. Given the "islandy" nature of either, I think the comparison fits.

        Second: No instant travel. Ok, jumpclones kinda make that possible now, but it's still a far call from the near instant travel and very short traveling distances in WoW. How many people do NOT have IF as their recall point?

        But I'd really, really dread something like that in EvE. I can see peopl
        • by sanjacguy (908392)

          How many people do NOT have IF as their recall point?

          I dunno mon, da las' time I was in Ironforgey, all dem damn stunties kept tryin' ta kill me! An' when I got to da innkeepah, he tried ta kill me too!

          In answer to your rhetorical question, I'm guessing most of the horde doesn't have their Hearthstones set to Ironforge. Shattrath? That's another thing entirely.

          • Ok, ok... Sorry, I only played for like 3 months before it got boring. But I'm sure the Hordies have something like IF, too.
    • Re:I remember that (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Puff of Logic (895805) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:51AM (#20304601)

      You could literally stand on top of the bank in Org and watch the disease spread. It was actually a bit terrifying.
      Indeed. It occurs to me that perhaps Blizzard might take what was essentially an oversight and turn it into a world event. A properly designed disease, spread at a reasonable rate and requiring a cure that would confer immunity after that, might be an interesting community event. A slow, constant loss of hp when online might result in healers becoming almost doctors while other classes searched for a cure. Bandages, alchemy, herbs, and so on could have a role to play. Obviously some deeper thought would be required on this, but I thought it an interesting idea.

      cheers.
      • Hah (Score:3, Interesting)

        by SatanicPuppy (611928) *
        Your idea is rejected because it's too cool. Please try again with something that would require more grinding.

        Seriously, I've always wanted more stuff like this. I mean, 99% of the content never changes. Would it be too much to have more events that require significant numbers of players to actually dedicate their time to fixing the problem, pushing back the enemy, etc? Even the seasonal content in WoW is pretty static, and you don't have to participate.
        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by Puff of Logic (895805)

          Your idea is rejected because it's too cool. Please try again with something that would require more grinding.
          Fair enough. Hmmm...okay, the cure will only be effective on those who have exalted status with the goblin HMO Booty Bay?
        • Would it be too much to have more events that require significant numbers of players to actually dedicate their time to fixing the problem,
          Dude, last time someone suggested something like that, we got the Ahn'Qiraj war effort. Never again!
      • Re:I remember that (Score:4, Interesting)

        by mewsenews (251487) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @12:25PM (#20307133) Homepage
        I love this idea if it could be worked out. My first character was a priest because I wanted to be one of the characters restoring order to the world. There were only two quests I recall that really gave the impression you were helping put things back together:

        1) Priest epic staff quest -- involves healing dozens of NPCs while defending them from harm
        2) First Aid artisan quest -- involves performing triage on injured NPCs

        It seems like 99% of the other quests in the game involve destroying things.
        • The problem with "fixing" quests is that there are only a handful of classes who can actually heal - any healing-oriented quest automatically excludes maybe half the population, and some non-trivial fraction of the healing capable classes will probably give out about it too.

          In a game where most skillsets are based around smashing people's faces in, it's hard to do meaningful helping quests, alas.

          • by dan828 (753380)
            Except that the first aid artisan quest was open to everyone, and was required to level your first aid skill past a certain point. Healing classes don't particularly need to do it because they can heal themselves without the need for bandages that the other classes have.
        • by e2d2 (115622)
          Sounds like most games these days, anything can be solved by destroying something or someone. Is this art imitating life or vice versa? The whole "when in doubt, break the boom stick out" mentality that culls humanity.
      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by rangband (1102595)
        Yea that is a pretty sweet idea, Everquest 2 had a world event like this in summer of 2005, if i remember correctly. There was a very long drawn out quest that culminated with a raid which when finished provided a permanent cure. I stayed out of the city for a week or more avoiding the plague until some punk ran by on his horse in Zek and infected me. All the stuff that wow players wish blizzard would do SOE is doing with Eq2.
      • by Macgrrl (762836)

        I guess you don't play a healing class. We get enough "Healplz!!!" while in PUGs, none of us would go to capital cities until it was over.

        • I guess you don't play a healing class. We get enough "Healplz!!!" while in PUGs, none of us would go to capital cities until it was over.

          Actually, a dwarvern priest was my very first character and is still played (when I have an active subscription). My other (arguably main) character is a warlock that I levelled in tandem with him. I have a lot of affection for my 'lock, as he was around back when 'locks were utterly broken and gimped. The meteoric rise to power of well-played 'locks is, in his view, merely the appropriate swing of the pendulum!

          I rather enjoy the mental dichotomy of switching back and forth between a warlock and a pr

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by SatanicPuppy (611928) *
      Yea, it was pretty cool. I don't know how it would ever model anything because it's got a few flaws over a real world model.

      First, there is no incubation period. There is no "unwitting carrier". If you have it, you know it, and you spread it either intentionally, or because you're an idiot. I carried it a few times for giggles (I nuked Org once by zerging the AH while infected), but for the most part, if I got it, I'd go hang out in a corner 'till I died.

      Second, the transportation methods are completely unr
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by cptnapalm (120276)
        "a substantial subset of the population actually wants to get the disease, so people are actively seeking it out for themselves so they can spread it."

        Such people are called bug chasers.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_chaser [wikipedia.org]
        • by Pojut (1027544)
          ...I'm getting overwhelming images of William S. Burroughs in my head...
        • Meh. That's more of an external expression of self-loathing.

          This was a lot more like ebola than HIV, and you don't see anyone chasing ebola.

          The best real-world analog would be terrorists who intentionally infect themselves with communicable diseases and then rushing to spread them as a kind of bioterrorism...The problem is, either the disease isn't communicable enough to be spread effectively (e.g. HIV), the disease isn't bad enough to be worth spreading (e.g the regular human Flu), or the disease is so bad
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by eht (8912)
        Unrealistic transportation methods? A good part of the populated North America could be infected in less than a day by a single patient zero carrier, Europe is the same way. And infectious diseases chain from one person to another, you wouldn't even have to leave the airport, just let other people from the airport fly away and infect others for you. In less than a week a single patient zero could easily infect the world, yes it isn't the same as World of Warcraft, but people don't die in minutes from infect
        • Re: (Score:1, Redundant)

          by SatanicPuppy (611928) *
          Not with a virus that spreads and kills as quickly as this one. The WoW equivalent of air travel would see anyone dead before they could get to another population center if they had that virus.
      • by Chris Burke (6130)
        Just like in real life!
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Dmala (752610)
        I nuked Org once by zerging the AH while infected

        You get it in IF, you hearth to SW, and poof, you've infected two population centers in a matter of moments

        Good grief, is this English? I've always avoided MMORPGs, at this point I think I'd need a translator to get started.
        • by Achoi77 (669484)

          I know this was meant to be funny, but I'll respond because I'm a dork

          IF = Ironforge, the dwarven capital

          SW = Stormwind, the human capital

          "to hearth" is slang for "to use a hearthstone" (not the bottom of a fireplace) - an item everybody has that is used to teleport from wherever they are in the world to wherever they decide to call home. Most people bind themselves to one of the two capitals.

        • I nuked Org once by zerging the AH while infected

          English translation: "While infected with the virus, I made a suicidal dash into the middle of the market district of the Horde capitol city of Orgrimmar, causing untold havok and massive infections."

          "Zerging" is from Starcraft, and is often used to describe an attack whose sole goal is damage, destruction, and mayhem, where the health of yourself or your soldiers is completely unimportant.

          AH, IF, SW, etc are all common abbreviations. "Auction House." "IronFo
      • If you read the article (yeah yeah I know - slashdot...) they took all this into account - ever after all that its one of the only real world examples where they have been able to monitor how people behave with pandemic diseases.
  • Activism! (Score:4, Funny)

    by fulgan (116418) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:37AM (#20304405)
    Stop medical experiment on night elves!
  • Does anyone act online like they do in real life? That is like trying to compare how car crashes react by looking at kids on big wheels....
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Oxygen99 (634999)
      In weird ways they do. Check out this study [nmc.org] from Stanford University.

      Essentially it shows that concepts of personal space survive in online games, so the idea that WOW might be a useful insight into real world behaviour is valid.
      • So what's the real-world analog of "WTF? This sucks, I'm canceling my subscription."
      • People may have similar online personalities to their real life personalities, but that doesn't mean they are going to act the same to avoid a real disease that is painful/fatal/paralyzing compared to a virtual disease that causes about thirty seconds of inconvenience.

        Also the infrastructures that exist in real-life that aren't in WoW that makes things more complicated, like water systems and sewer systems. Aside from instances (which don't exist in real life), there are no buildings that people can lock t
      • I doubt that it's that simple. I can see how some of the reflex stuff, like the eye contact or distance from each other might count, so I'm not dismissing their research. But I'm saying you should know when to stop extrapolating from what they actually studied, to stuff that you just imagine _should_ work the same way.

        1. Other stuff is more like built on logical decisions, and (consciously or subconsciously) min-maxing rewards vs risks within the rules of the game, not within the rules of RL. The solution p
    • by faloi (738831)
      Some portion of the people likely don't act online as they would in real life. But there would be real life asshats to make up for it.

      For example, if I were told I had TB and that I had best not travel, I probably wouldn't, regardless of whether it was to protect themselves or not. There'd be that little voice saying TB is contagious, and I probably shouldn't run the risk...
    • Well, in Second Life I'd say I'm pretty much my RL self. Only blue and with a tail :-)

      For example, just like in RL, it feels uncomfortable to stand too close to somebody. I talk about the same things, and behave nearly the same, with a few inhibitions.
    • by mwvdlee (775178)
      Sure they do!
      Whenever I get a decease in real-life I always go running out on the street trying to infect everyone then dropping dead and starting a new life with my alt.
  • by thc69 (98798) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:41AM (#20304469) Homepage Journal
    MMORPG IS a real world disease.
    • by bugnuts (94678)
      ... and it spreads into the geek population through repeat slashdot articles like this one!

  • by tangent3 (449222) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:43AM (#20304487)
    I've seen people deliberately trying to spread the disease in the game. In order to obtain the disease, you need to meet the final boss of the Zul'gurub raid instance, named Hakkar. When Hakkar infects you with the disease, you will then have to hearth back to Orgrimmar or Ironforge to spread the disease before it kills you. Would people do this in real life?

    Or can we expect to see suicidal terrorists deliberately infecting themselves and moving into a population...
    • The disease in question was rather hurriedly made impossible to spread a week or so after this happened. In other words, TWO YEARS AGO.
    • Some people believe it isn't fair they contract certain diseases or viruses, and are willing to continue their lifestyle regardless of what it may cause ("It wasn't fair, so I'll just ignore it and keep going"). While this can pertain to HSV or HIV, I don't think it would be possible to relate it to this. If you were dying very quickly would you really urge to run out and infect a bunch of people? Not really.

      Your 'terrorist' idea though, that is one scary idea. While I think the term has been beaten to deat
      • Your 'terrorist' idea though, that is one scary idea. While I think the term has been beaten to death by Bush and the media, that would definitely cause it. Lets hope
        they realize in the end it would still spread to their people, too. Hopefully they have some sense of survival and self-preservation.

        I don't think this is terribly likely, as if the disease was bad enough to cause an epidemic, it would have had already, even without the terrorists. An epidemic probably needs the right disease: something with th

    • It involved a group of homo-sexuals who would drug other homo-sexuals at gay parties and then inject them with blood, apparently blood known to be contaminated with the aids virus.

      Neither is it first time but it was one of the most direct (blood injection is far sure then unprotected sex), deliberate and massive. But it is nothing new.

      Aids has also been used as a threat before as in, "if you (don't) do X I will bite/scratch you".

      Offcourse aids is nothing like the WoW disease, but the idea of people deli

    • In the real world, back several hundred year during the time of the Plague, the first response of villagers who encountered someone who had the plague (an infected messsenger who arrived on the edge of the village), was to gather everyone together in the market place, inform them, then send out more villagers to warn their neighbours. Depending on the mode of transport (walking, horse, cart, coach), this would enable the infection to spread (fleas on animals or clothes).
    • As with most adolescent games, WoW is about dominance and control (along with a fair share of hoarding wealth...to show dominance and control). It's a nice gig to do research showing patterns that don't exist for people more ignorant than the average teenager. Must be a government funded study. Next in the news, the MMORPG diseases never kill anyone for very long making it a kind of minigame to infect as many people as possible. Didn't even need a grant for me to know that, just common sense.
    • What, you never heard of Typhoid Mary [wikipedia.org]?
    • Or can we expect to see suicidal terrorists deliberately infecting themselves and moving into a population...


      Holy hell, I'd never thought of that before... that's a frightening idea.
  • ... as opposed to 'real' games?
    • by l3mr (1070918)
      Yes. Real games, played without computers. Tabletop games, Pen + Paper RPGs or so.
  • researchers in the US who argue that the spread of 'corrupted blood' in World of Warcraft might provide clues to the way a real world population would cope with the prospect of a global pandemic.
    I would just log off.

    Oh wait...
  • "[virtual games] could be of great value in helping us understand what their true emotional responses would be."

    Yes, I'm sure that typical responses to a real life crisis would be along the lines of "LOL," "ROFLCOPTERS," or even "LULZ EVERY1 HAS AIDZ"

    Just hope you're soulstoned.
  • But honey, (Score:3, Funny)

    by kcurtis (311610) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:58AM (#20304725)
    I'm not just raiding. I'm helping prevent the spread of infectious diseases. Do you really want our children to die of the plague?
  • by Stevecrox (962208) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @09:58AM (#20304741) Journal
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6951918.stm [bbc.co.uk]

    The opinion seems to be while its just a video game it might provide a little insight into how people react to these situations which could be usefull for future modeling.
  • The Times is reporting on a paper by researchers in the US who argue that the spread of 'corrupted blood' in World of Warcraft might provide clues to the way a real world population would cope with the prospect of a global pandemic. In the study, to be published in The Lancet next month, Professor Lofgren of Rutgers University and Professor Fefferman of Tufts University, suggest that: 'If, God forbid, a disease broke out in London, you could see what would happen if people were told immediately of the risk.

    • by Zuato (1024033)
      Curiosity has me here.

      If you found out about it, you admitted you would avoid it by stashing your character which could be equated to avoiding the area where the disease is. Isn't that a behavior that could relate to a real life outbreak?

      The thought of it affecting your avatar was enough for you to react to it. That's what they are looking for - reactions, and most importantly how people would react.

      A small percentage will be tards and want to spread it to watch the chaos go down. Most will try to avoid it
      • If you found out about it, you admitted you would avoid it by stashing your character which could be equated to avoiding the area where the disease is. Isn't that a behavior that could relate to a real life outbreak?

        Not really. An in-game pandemic's "location" could be "anywhere in the game", so I wouldn't play the game until it blew over. In real life, a pandemic's "location" would also be "anywhere in the world", but I don't have the option of shutting down my bio functions until it blows over, so I'd h

        • I still doubt it. A smarter thing to do would probably be to study actual epidemics and other disasters and then see what people actually did in those situations.

          When was the last pandemic since we (as a people) started creating scientific records that we can study?

          I read a summary of the study and I found it fascinating - they were able to cross reference what happened in the game to what we do know about real world events (like bubonic plague).
  • The Corrupted blood epidemic was fantastic fun....more things like this in the game would make WoW a whole lot more fun.
  • The only safe MMORPG is abstinence.
  • Same idea I suppose about a super virus; though all of the characters are not controlled by real people. I think the story generally portrays some insight to the idea of what would you do? As most characters in the game if memory serves me right go through serious denial and the emotional factor of the non-infected characters would believe it; creating that foreshadowing moment of when the virus finally takes over and ones benevolence cost them their life.

    Personally I hope the story line of any of the resid
  • When you look at WoW, something like this would be HORRIBLE if it happened to the world. Though, WoW has a few key features that do help the spread of such a disease, but are not at all reflected in reality.

    First: WoW is small compared to the world. Tiny, actually. At best, WoW is the equivalent of a rather small country, certainly no planet.

    Second: High population density. Even Tokyo isn't as cramped as IF. Even the most remote corners of WoW are filled with people.

    Third: Mandatory congregation points. Whi
  • by sabt-pestnu (967671) on Tuesday August 21, 2007 @01:15PM (#20307979)
    The MMORG A Tale In The Desert [atitd.com] also had a disease event [atitd.net]. Due to game mechanics, there were a few differences.
    In WoW...
    • The WoW disease killed. WoW has an "easy resurrection" system, so it didn't cost players more than a few minutes of inconvenience.
    • The cause was immediately known, and the cure (death) while inconvenient, was also immediately known
    • Detecting a carrier was easy.
    • Being cured of the disease (dying) took little play time.
    In ATITD...
    • The disease debilitated, eventually forcing a disconnect for a period of time (a coma, as it were).
    • The cause had to be discovered by the player community. And even after theories were proven, there were still some cases that could not easily be explained.
    • Much like real life, carriers often didn't know they had it until signs manifested... too late for those around them
    • Discovering a cure was a separate (community) event, requiring much player time and involvement. Actually getting cured took a non-trivial amount of time and resources on the part of the "sick" player. ... and the character could get reinfected a short period after taking the cure. (A permanent cure was eventually discovered, which took MORE resources...)
    Also unlike WoW, ATITD is very much a social game. Introduce, then, something that produces highly negative consequences to social interaction, and you get ... a lot of people leaving a game that is no longer fun.

    On the other hand, I expect the reactions by the people who didn't leave were perhaps even closer to those in the real world than in WoW, because of its social aspects.

    And for those of you who haven't heard of the game before, I should point out that the nature of the game (no combat) and the social ecology tends to select for cooperative behavior. ... and long attention spans...
  • Virtual environment is not good unless you don't actually include the fact that real people are playing a game. In the case of WoW, people intentionally brought the plague back to the various cities. Why? Because it's absolutely hilarious to watch everyone in a city die almost instantly.

    This would be why one server dragged Kazzak all the way to Stormwind. Just to see what would happen and to kill everyone.

    The virtual world that they speak of would have to have the players NOT know that there was a plague
  • Ig Nobel Prize. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by SYSS Mouse (694626)
    I think someone should nominate Blizzard and the scientists for the Ig Nobel Prize.
  • Unfortunately -- though a really neat idea! -- you will not conjure up "real world" reaction scenarios from an MMORPG disease. Remember, you are dealing with entities that fearlessly shoot fireballs at dragon whelps, ride hippogriffins hundreds of feet above the ground and jump off dwarven damns just to see how far down you can fall.

    The "death" penalty in WoW is gentle -- that's part of the game's attraction, but detrimental to this type of experimentation. You can slightly increase the effectiveness of
  • Pedro Zamora. anybody? no? bad joke? I kid!

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