What Are the Advantages/Disadvantages of Game Schools? 123
GameCareerGuide has up an article looking at the pros and cons of going to a 'game school'. There are a number of programs in schools across the country that now focus on game development, game design, and creating game art. Are they worth it? "First, and probably most importantly, game-specific schools do not typically offer a comprehensive undergraduate education. Some game programs, as well as art schools, will actually encourage young students to go elsewhere for their undergraduate education and return to game school for more advanced training. I've literally heard that out of the mouths of art school faculty: Go get your bachelor's degree at a traditional university, then come back and apply to art school after you've learned a little more about the world. And while it's true that not everyone is cut out for a traditional education in the humanities or sciences, many many people who initially fight it find it invaluable after the fact. "
Advantage: (Score:5, Funny)
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What do you intend to get out of it? (Score:2, Funny)
Long hours. Low pay. Constant threat of unemployment. Lousy managers. Corrupt company owners. Hell on Earth.
A degree from a game school is like a degree from DeVry, except with less real-world applicability.
You won't find Digipen grads running game companies. You'll find them slaving away for lousy managers and corrupt bosses. Get a business degree and hire a bunch of coders to write your game. Hell, pitch in whenever you have the chance. Whatever
Re:What do you intend to get out of it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, because being a business grad with a sack of money makes you a qualified game designer? I feel sorry for the coders you hire who have to implement your idiotic ideas - designing a game is an art/science that takes dedication and real experience, not just a random idea and a sack of money. It's like a wealthy financier trying to become a world-renowned filmmaker just because he has the money to hire a camera crew.
Some of us have a passion for game development, and for programming. While there are some companies out there that exploit their employees in horrible conditions, there are just as many who are willing to treat their developers with respect. This is true for every field of industry I have ever been in (from manufacturing all the way to game dev), so don't think long hours, low pay, poor job security, lousy managers, and corrupt execs are somehow unique or more prevalent in this industry than the next.
Game development is hectic, is it often tough, and if you don't love building games you're going to have a hellish time. Same goes for most "industrialized" arts like film or publishing.
"just a random idea and a sack of money." (Score:3, Insightful)
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There's funding experienced designers to produce a great product, and then there's sticking your hand in to somewhere you don't belong. I have seen both types of management. The effective exec recognizes design talent and recognizes that the best way to create great work is to leave them be and support them when necessary. The ineffective exec fulfills his own incomplete dreams of being an uber-designer, and injects his asinine ideas left, right, and center, exploiting his position to get his crappy ideas i
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No, it makes him "The Boss".
Don't Like it? Save yourself years of wasted time and money, and don't even bother getting that degree. Start your own business and make a fortune (or die in the gutter of starvation).
Want a regular paycheck, instead? Get whatever paper Boss most values, and expect the occasional BS in your job. Careful selection of Boss should minimize that, some even have a clue.
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Well, technically it costs somewhere around $30 to make official in most places, but you can usually do most forms of contracting without actually bothering to pay the extortion for a "business license". So that comes pretty close to "without money". Varies by state (and possibly by town), though, so YMMV, IANAL, etc.
As for "without time"... In your accidental highlighting of my point, I can't help but think that you perhaps mi
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To be clear I'm not advocating that an aspiring game developer should go to game school - quite the opposite in fact. My experience in the industry is such that I know the quality of the education is minimal at best, and it certainly doesn't give you the depth necessary for your skills to be relevant in even 6 months. An aspiring game artist needs to go to art school (a proper one, with proper basic education in visual or audio arts)... an aspiring game coder needs to get a CS/eng degree.
Yes, great games
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I mean, imagine if all those unworthy Tetris and Pac Man clones found their way onto the retail shelf? *shudder*
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Agreed. I've seen developers come from the "best" game schools, only to realize just how little of practical value they actually learned. I'd much rather take a classically trained artist / programmer who had two years of experience in the field than one with a BS and two years at an additional game
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You mean like Howard Hughes [wikipedia.org]?
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It's like a wealthy financier trying to become a world-renowned filmmaker just because he has the money to hire a camera crew.
Re:What do you intend to get out of it? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a programmer at Volition, Inc. I don't work insane hours (though, I haven't crunched yet). I'm paid well. My managers are great. I love coming into work every day. You're making terrible generalizations that don't apply to a lot of places. They could also apply to non-game companies. It's like you're just hateful of the working world in general.
We have Full Sail, Digipen, and Guild Hall grads working here, right now. I went to Full Sail, myself.
Whatever you do, don't listen to the above idiot. Do what you love.
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I think everyone understands that there are good times in the game business. It's just that they don't make up for the bad in the medium run.
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The gaming market seems to be fairly stable at the moment, in terms of the number and quality of games suit the size of the market, I really don't see the
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Currently I am going back for a BS in Art.
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I find that CS majors at other schools tend to have spent very little time programming relative to what was (is) done at Digipen.
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How come I never have mod points when I need 'em.?
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But that is besides the point - if you want to learn how to programs games - sometimes the best way is to sit down and do it - that way you encounter problems to fix, etcetera that all the theory in the world would
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CS isn't programming and programming isn't CS.
If you want to do games programming then large chunks of CS are irrelevant. Large chunks of CS are also relevant and I'm sure you'll do a lot of work on them - probably more than a more generic CS course.
Turns out that I went to Digipen (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to make games, you can generally count on long hours, especially if you end up in a smaller company. You do overrate the threat of unemployment however. As for lousy managers and corrupt owners, do you really think things are that much better in other fields? Anyway,
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Re:What do you intend to get out of it? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll say that I agree with the stance of the article. Get a real degree and supplement it with game school knowledge. Which order really depends on your situation. If you can afford it, get the real degree first. Then, work your way through game school (usually shorter duration than a 4 year degree). If you can't get the game diploma and work your way through real school (probably in QA or level scripting or some other entry level position).
For game design, look for degree areas that compliment the types of games you want to make. History for those war based games. Sociology for those MMOs and Sim type events. Economics if you want to design a nice stock trading game. Whatever makes sense. Then, when you go to design the games you want, you'll have a firm grasp of how it should work.
For programming, look to computer science or MIS. CS would be the better choice of the two, but if you want to work in the MMO arena, having database skills that you get from an MIS degree would be helpful.....but if you want to do the 3D engine work, you gotta go CS.
For art, well, obviously, an art based degree.
If you want to be a producer, MIS again and some business focused project management.
Layne
Adv. & Disadv. (Score:4, Funny)
Disadvantage: No one in their right mind will ever hire you.
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The main disadvantage (Score:3, Interesting)
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Some of the names on the advisory board are names that anyone in the industry would know. And many of them are available to th
Get a batchellors (Score:5, Insightful)
If your sector of work ever fails, that degree shows a potential employer in another field a few things: first that you stuck something out for four years (which, in a volatile game industry, you may not have the chance to do, or may not choose to do in order to 'get ahead'). Secondly it gives you a well-rounded foundation. You learn as much in class as you do out of class in the social interactions between your classmates and the dynamics of the university, even if you live off campus.
In short, an accredited piece of paper means a lot, and not just in your field. Go for it!
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You might even learn how to spell "bachelor". Sorry, couldn't resist!
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and Firefox doesn't point out spelling errors in text boxes, for some reason.
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1. type this in the browser address bar "about:config"
2. look for "layout.spellcheckDefault"
3. change the value to "2
4. restart firefox
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This is especially true of a bachelor's degree in English, which should enable you to spell bachelor correctly.
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I took theater, philosophy and psychology, and then engineering electives. (Damn. Firefox highlighted three words in the last sentence
Work Visas are a bigger factor (Score:2)
END COMMUNICATION
Fresh air. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's actually surprising for me to see this and I think it puts the gaming schools in a much better light than I had put them in earlier.
I've got a near-16 year old nephew who seems to think that he can skirt around the parameters of traditional education and still come out on top working in the gaming field. I can't blame him though... I also have a brother who doesn't seem to know that there is a not-so fine line between being a genius and being a little smarter then most kids of the same age but being a lazy unmotivated slob. He's all too convinced that things will fall together when they need to. If only he knew that these things needed to start to fall together a few years ago.
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Too many parents like to think of their kids as little Einsteins. It's too bad really, the sooner a parent sees that his kid is going to have to struggle just like
Advantage (Score:2, Funny)
ObCynicsm (atl: ObDogbert) (Score:2)
Pro: Open your own such school to cash in on the phenomenon.
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Where else can it bring you? (Score:4, Insightful)
Disadvantage (Score:2)
Game degree won't help you get another type of job, while the converse isn't true for a regular degree - regular degree is just more flexible, you can do either if at some point in the future you change your mind about your life priorities (often happens, marriage, children, or just plain age...).
Not saying it's a deal breaker, just saying it's a real consideration.
Don't read this post if a game school sounds good (Score:4, Insightful)
There are no reliable shortcuts in life.
Okay, just to clairfy - dropping out of college and starting a multi-billion dollar company is possible, but not probably. You'd be better off playing the lotto - that doesn't require as much work, and gets you similar odds*. Being successful means knowing _all_ the things than nobody else takes the time to learn. Anybody can learn the fun stuff, the really successful people know the un-fun stuff and that's what gives them an edge against the fun-stuff-only people. Just in case is isn't clear yet, in this industry there are no points awarded for being able to play your video game well.
*playing the 146M:1 powerball lotto twice a week for 5 years gets you to 280k:1 chance to win a comfy retirement (typically $10M-100M lump sum payout). There are 300M people in the US, so there would need to be over 1000 college-drop-out 8-figure CEOs that invested less than $1000 and 15 minutes a week in their business to make the lotto a worse option.
Re:Don't read this post if a game school sounds go (Score:1)
Re:Don't read this post if a game school sounds go (Score:1, Insightful)
Sorry, but this statement taken as universal "wisdom" for how to live LIFE in general is wrong. There are plenty of shortcuts for those with the means or cleverness to find them. Though this may not apply to educating oneself in something as complex as gamedesign, there are many shortcuts in life people frequently don't choose are are not aware of.
For instance: Live with your parents longer then your peers gives, and having the goal of dating during your 20's save
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It all depends on what your goals are, you can't just compare everything across the board. Success means very different things to different people.
Obviously, your goal is to retire as early as possible, and you've found short cuts that work for you to meet that end. Other people might have a similar goal, but put a higher weight on getting there independently.
Other people might just want to write games.
There are millions of goals out there. Don't
Re:Don't read this post if a game school sounds go (Score:2)
I don't know about that correlation. 100% of the CS who graduated with me were medium to hardcore gamers. Myself included. Almost the entirety of the last 2 generations are gamers of some form so you correlation is very poor.
Gamers tend to have obse
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The correlation you implied was that gamers are lazy. Not that lazy people game but that gamers want to code games and they are lazy. My rebuttal was that the entire graduating class and 2 entire generation are gamers so it's difficult to say we're
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That said, it looks like there's a mod out there who disagrees with me, too, having modded down all three comments. Sore loser, I suspect.
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Game schools? (Score:1)
I go to school down the street from Full Sail... (Score:2, Funny)
Would they hire you now? (Score:2)
If your development house of choice wouldn't hire you sans "degree" from one of these places, they're not likely to hire you with one either. Most of these places are to games what the "Guitar Institute of Technology" is to music.
They do more harm than good (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that that is out of the way, for everyone else, they will end up having their 'gaming college' amount to little more than time served at a school. I have attended these schools which turned into a game school while I was there (CIS/CSC for me). TFA points out some truths, but I only want to focus on something that afflicts many technology focused schools, but game design programs even more.
These kids are lazy. Your average game degree student has a basic knowledge of computing principles, may have tried coding/art, and is immersed in geek/nerd culture/lifestyle. They go to school only with an interest in games, thinking they want to do what they love. I will always support that, but you have to back up your passion for games with a passion to make games for a living and most completely lack the latter. Countless students attended class for a couple semesters and once the coding or advanced modeling classes came around, the classes were empty. These students elected to miss class to play games all the time. They have gaming machines on campus where you can play games on break. I would constantly find kids who should be in the class I was attending on these machines.
Anything of worth for these students meant little to them. They think they can go to school, learn how to draft a Game Design Doc and send that off to publishers and then wait for the call where someone offers them millions to create their game.
Color me a troll, but these students were lazy and had no ambition to actually do or learn anything. They were generally delusional about what working in the game industry entailed and the staff at the school did little to educate them.
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Can you believe we get paid to play video games? (Score:1)
When I was 14, I wanted to be a game developer. This was 15 years ago during the 8-bit/16-bit era where things were much more simple. I'd written a few sprite-based proof-of-concept "games" and it was fun. I didn't bank my future on it though. I'd say that there is/was some value in what I DID learn on my own to get where I am now. I don't think that these diplomma mills who are cashing in on unwitting youths is a he
The school means nothing, it's about your skill (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, there are PLENTY of kids who came to the school because they thought if they played game, they could make them and end up dropping out or unemployed. But I saw the same things when I was going for a C.S. degree at a "traditional" college, and anyone who's been to any type of college will tell you there are people who join that major who have the wrong expectations and should not be there.
Im not going to defend all "game schools", but I think it's unfair to put a blanket dismissal to all of them. If you find a good one (make sure they aren't just taking your money) and take it seriously, you can learn skills that will apply directly to getting a job. I have many friends with C.S. and other degrees from nice universities and state schools that have no real-world applicable knowledge.
In short, I have my degree from a "game school" and currently my major, "Visual & Game Programming", has a 100% hire rate among graduates - all employed at film (Pixar, ILM) or game companies (ArenaNet, Perpetual)
Some game degrees are worthy, most are not (Score:3, Informative)
The degree I was on was run by ex-games industry staff, all with years of experience and shipped titles, and plenty of firsthand knowledge of the way the game industry works and what game development is like. The problem is with game degrees is they simply are not going to be respected among non gaming employers (and among many gaming ones too) as a traditional academic degree in something like maths, business, CS etc. It'd be nice to think my games degree (I got a first)looked on paper as good as someone with a normal one, but im not kidding myself here.
As we know, not all degrees are created equal, and this is especially so with the current state of game degrees. Firstly, "game design" degrees are almost completely worthless(some many be more game art or game programming but use the "game design" tag mind you), most of them are run by academics with no industry experience or those with only a vauge sense of the realities of game development. The job "game designer" basically does not exist in a lot of companies, where the whole team either makes contributions to design or the leads of various departments take this job. Many companies have a lead designer, this is a postition you can apply for after maybe 4-5 years experience in some other part of development, probably more than 5 years though, or maybe an amazing career in QA. Either way, companies do not spend $5 million developing a game only to hand over the major design aspects of it to a graduate with a "game design" degree from a university whos lecturers haven't been near a game company.
Although I did a game degree myself, I expect it to count for nothing more than any other degree and probably a bit less in fact than if i'd have done a "proper" degree when looking for jobs at game companies. The adundance of shitty game degrees run by academics is still making a lot of developers suspicious of game degree grads despite the fact they're starting to hire quite a bit from the good courses out there.
Only do a game degree if you are 100% certain it's the only thing you're going to want to do and you have the willpower to make yourself employable in what is a very competetive industry. If you want to be a programmer, get a CS degree and try and specialise as much as possible in your modules/work in gaming orientated subjects ie pyhsics, gui, graphics etc. My uni has another game degree, a programming one, as I described earlier its run by academics with no games experience and is total shite - apparently they only learn C++ in the final year and its all java up till then (stop crying, now). Also, just because it's a good uni may not mean the course itself is any good. The quality of degrees varies massively within universities themselves, find out as much about the degree, what you'll learn, and who will be teaching you as you possibly can. Try and find graduates from the degree on forums / using some decent googling to see if any of them ended up actually working in the game industry.
Don't bother with game design degrees at all, no one hires game designers without experience, and most certainly no one hires game designers because they have "game design" degrees. If they did, it's be
DigiPen! (Score:2)
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Most people think of a handfull of game schools, but there are now tons of crappy "game design" programs that can barely qualify as vocational training, much less a real study in computer science.
It also has a lot to d
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I ask this out of ignorance of a "game school"'s curriculum, but what exactly do you learn programming-wise? Do you get exposed to different classes of languages? Discrete math? Linear algebra? Computational theory? It's cool that you learned to program in an environment that you enjoyed, but I'm not clear on how thoroughly they actually teach the theory.
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I spoke with the hiring manager at bioware and indeed their storyline plotters are mostly English majors with some secondary qualification as well (IE. A CS diploma).
Am I the token game school grad that's doing well? (Score:4, Interesting)
I went to Full Sail for Game Development (programming), graduated with my bachelor's in 21 months. I'm currently working as a programmer for Volition, Inc. We also have grads from Digipen and Guild Hall working here.
The biggest thing to remember about a game school is this: a school doesn't teach you anything, it allows you to learn. If you don't put in the effort, you'll get nothing out of it. The people that got the most out of a game school, like myself, were working on side projects throughout their time at school. If you aren't motivated while in school to work on games, and don't take time to learn outside of school, then a game school isn't for you. Period.
Is it harder to get a job outside of games with a game degree? That depends. I went for programming, and I know that I am significantly more qualified for a non-game programming job now than I was before I went. That being said, there are still a lot of people out there who think all game schools are a joke, because they've only met the game school failures, or think all game schools are like the fly-by-night universities they see advertised on TV.
Full Sail's Game Development program not only has gaming-centric classes like Game Design Fundamentals, where you learn to write a design doc, and DirectX, but also calculus, linear algebra, and a mythology class. You learn what you would at a normal school, but what makes them great classes is that they're tailored towards games. In linear algebra, the focus is on matrices and matrix math. In our psychology class, some time is devoted to color theory and how different cultures perceive the meaning of colors.
Really, the bottom line is that if you are 100% sure you want to go into games, and you have the motivation to put in 80 hour weeks for months in school between side projects, classes, and school projects, a game school *may* be a good choice for you. Don't discount a good school just because its emphasis is on games.
I'd go for the "normal" IT degree (Score:2)
First and formost, what is computer graphics? Hell, what is any programming? Right. Math. Applied math, but what it boils down to is simply that. Trignometry, matrix calculation, theory. I've actually taken a look at DigiPen, someone I know went there and is now slaving aw... I mean, working at a game company. What did he learn? Basically the same I did. Plus tons of physics and game design, which I lack. Granted. Should I want my way into the game world (so far I managed to reta
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If that is the case I don't know how you could go though the years of schooling and not realize this then. I know, at Full Sail at least, I see a lot of students making this realization in the first few months. At that point you still have time to drop out and pick something else for your career without loosing all that much. Though, really you should probably be able to figure that out before even enrolling
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Erm.
Do I need to point out everything that is utterly wrong with this comment, or can I just leave it at that? You could possibly make the argument that "...there is tremendous pressure to use bleeding edge technology as a way to appear competitive...", or some such, but as it stands, I think your claim is pretty indefensible.
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When I, as a programmer in, say, database programming, drop out of the loop for 5 years, I will find back in rather seamlessly, unless SQL is suddenly abandoned and replaced by the Next Big Thing. Unless that happens, I will still be where I was 5 years ago.
Certain things in game development don't change either. Matrices are still matrices, whether today or 20 years ago. The changes just happen much faster. You also have to take certain hardwar
Job opportunities (Score:2)
Want a job? (Score:3, Informative)
*Experience - The more the better. Someone who made a game at home I can look at before the interview and see how they code. Game experience is of course a plus and will get you more cred than the guy without it, but if you don't have any then you going out and working on a hobby game is a step above the other guy who has "likes games and dressing up like Final Fantasy" on his resume.
*Ability - You're going to do problems on the board. I like those better than just quizzing people on skills. Often its a design problem, because if you can code really well but someone else can't understand what the hell you did and has to debug it, that isn't so great. I'm interviewing more general programmer types though, so I'd imagine you'd get a more indepth interview on something like graphics.
*Education - Generally which piece of paper you have hanging on your wall at home isn't going to write code for me. Experience and ability are going to show me more than what diploma you have. Of course, we all have biases, so if your degree says MIT vs. some other guy who went to Joe Shmoe's School o' Gamin', I'm going for the MIT grad. That is, if you're both equal in the rest of the interview. I've hired from both backgrounds and found that its all down to the person. We've had guys from game schools blow away guys from top name schools, so its up to what you do once your foot is in the door.
Bottom line: What gets you hired is who you are and what you've done, not what school you went to.
I know a few people at game schools (Score:1)
..so I know from experience that with networking they can be good. My friends' classes consisted mainly of learning how to use software for modeling, drawing, etc. and relatively few were related to actual design or industry practices. It wasn't until senior year that any of them actually worked on a project as they would at a job.
The people who are successful are those who would do a lot outside of school no matter what they were studying in school. I made basic Quake mods in 6th grade with a friend, and
Game programs yes, game schools maybe. (Score:1)
There is a LOT to know about game development and the more you know, the more employable you will be. (To get hired also requires some talent and a portfolio, however.) There's no question that game development is a legitimate BA or BS or MA subject these d
Must have a passion for gaming (Score:2)
The pay usually sucks, the deadlines are fierce, and there is no real job security.
Great game programmers seem to be drawn to the industry - there is no option (to them) of ever working in anything else, regardless of how well they would do outside the industry.
guildhall? (Score:2)
Does anyone have any experience with the Guildhall? It's a game school / computer science-ish program at SMU, a reputable university in Dallas.
http://guildhall.smu.edu/about/program.htm [smu.edu]
Maybe that would be a good solution to your dilemma, although the tuition bill looks a little hefty.
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My opinion is that you absolutely should go to a traditional university before you go into one of these programs. 4 years for a BS in CS will give you a good well rounded education you could apply to many programming jobs.
University Degree vs. Trade School (Score:2)
It all really comes down to the following:
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My list (Score:1)
It's a game school! You are submersing yourself entirely into a video game development culture. You are nearly assured to be surrounding yourself with like-minded peers, and you'll probably have a lot of fun and creative output regardless of the quality of the teaching.
Disadvantages:
You gotta pay for it, in both time and money.
If you are really into video games and really want to become a designer, consider these two options. Option one, you attend a video game school and enjoy the above advantag
Masters after a BS (Score:1)
Take it from a drop out (Score:2)
WHo are you kidding? (Score:2)
Personal experience (Score:2)
The person knew a lot of special game-development related tricks and how to write vertex shaders, but was seriously lacking in basic programming knowledge. Turned out they had been working a lot in small groups making small computer games and demos under deadline to try out the techniques they were taught in the classes, indirectly encouraging sloppy coding and dirty hacks since their code ne