Is id Abandoning Linux?

edv writes "In a news posting dated 10th of September, Beyond3D is reporting of an article in a German publication in which id Software CEO Todd Hollenshead discusses the upcoming id title Rage and the engine it runs on, codenamed 'id Tech 5'. Amongst other things Todd mentions that no Linux version of the game is planned at the moment, and that it will run on Direct3D on Windows platform. OpenGL version is planned for the Mac however. If true, this would be a serious blow for Linux gaming (insert jokes here) as id and Carmack have been strong proponents of OpenGL and openness in the past."

Hmm...

[jafoc]

A few months ago (in April) they certainly intended to prepare a GNU/Linux version [enemyterritory.com].

Re:Not Happening

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a common misunderstanding and incorrect.

Microsoft's OpenGL implementation does use DirectX to complete OpenGL commands. However, no one really uses Microsoft's OpenGL implementation (and definitely not for games).

Every graphic card manufacturer distributes an OpenGL implementation specifically for their hardware. They do the same for Vista. When you run a game that uses OpenGL, it uses this pure implementation of OpenGL.

Re:Support(Vista, OpenGL) == SLOW_FPS

[morgan_greywolf]

I was under the impression that Vista did not support OpenGL in the true sense of "support". I had heard that Vista emulates all OpenGL calls and turns them into DirectX equivalents.

Stop spreading FUD. What you just said is so completely wrong [opengl.org] it's not even funny. Vista brings better OpenGL integration than XP. You're right that Vista does not include an OpenGL ICD in the box, but then again, neither did XP.

Re:Support(Vista, OpenGL) == SLOW_FPS

[Richard_at_work]

This is a common misconception regarding OpenGL on Vista - there are three options open to OpenGL developers on Vista:

1. Default Implementation - this does as you say, translates OpenGL calls into Direct3D calls.
2. Legacy Installable Client Driver - this runs OpenGL natively but is incompatible with some parts of Vista.
3. Vista Compatible Installable Client Driver - this runs OpenGL natively.

As you can see, all is not as lost as some are making it out to be.

Re:Support(Vista, OpenGL) == SLOW_FPS

[Tinyn]

Thats only if you do not have proper Video card drivers installed. If you have the proper drivers installed they basically override MS's OpenGL with their own, and then the OpenGL calls run as fast as ATI/Nvidia can make them run.

Re:Support(Vista, OpenGL) == SLOW_FPS

[morgan_greywolf]

Read the entire paragraph:

Performance-wise, developers can expect a decrease of around 10-15% on Windows as compared to Windows XP. Applications that use problematic cases (for example, excessive flushing, or rendering to the frontbuffer, as explained later) can see a larger performance degradation. However, expect this gap to become smaller over time while the graphics hardware vendors work on further optimizing their Windows Vista WDDM drivers.

first post ever, maybe I should cut you some slack, but my guess is that based on the age of your account and that this is the first post ever, you are probably an astroturfing, shilling troll. (For comparison, my account is probably somewhere around 2 years old, and yours is older)

So, you either didn't bother reading the entire paragraph, or you are a troll. I'm betting based on the evidence that you fall in the later category.

JC's D3D criticisms are dated, likes modern D3D

[AHumbleOpinion]

Carmack has always been a long time supporter of OpenGL, because afaik OpenGL has always been regarded as a more sophisticated and feature-rich graphics driver as opposed to Direct3D.

For many years Direct3D has had a substantial lead with respect to features and driver support.

Long ago and with respect to a very old Direct3D version Carmack really did rip into Direct3D. OpenGL advocates like to refer to this but the truth is that in recent years Carmack has pointed out that these criticisms are obsolete, that Direct3D has improved greatly and is now good.

"Carmack: No, because the DX9 stuff--actually, DX9 is really quite a good API [application programming interface] level. Even with the D3D [Direct3D] side of things, where I know I have a long history of people thinking I'm antagonistic against it. Microsoft has done a very, very good job of sensibly evolving it at each step--they're not worried about breaking backwards compatibility--and it's a pretty clean API. I especially like the work I'm doing on the 360, and it's probably the best graphics API as far as a sensibly designed thing that I've worked with."
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200701/N07.0109.1737.15034.htm [gameinformer.com]

Misinformative Article...

[CrusadeR]

Regarding id Tech 5 and Rage, id titles are usually ported to Linux relatively late in the development process when the programmer has the time, but they've always been ported. There were also these statements from Carmack at QuakeCon last month:

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200708/N07.0803.1731.12214.htm?Page=1 [gameinformer.com]

GI: Will this engine support any DX10 features?

Carmack: No, not currently. We're not expecting to. We're not sure if we're going to be a Vista title or not. There will be some support benefits by being Vista only. It depends when we get the game done what the adoption has been. But it's a OpenGL title on the PC and Mac right now, obviously D3D on the 360, and the PS3 it's kind of an in between where it's Open GLES but we do a lot of direct command buffer writing there. If necessary we can move the PC version over to DX10, but there's not much strong pull for us to do that. All of the toolset is in OpenGL, I wouldn't want to convert everything over.

http://www.linuxgames.com/news/feedback.php?identiferID=9374&action=flatview [linuxgames.com]

Q: I wanted to say thank you for open-sourcing the Quake 3 engine, it's made a huge difference to the community. I wanted to ask your opinion about the future of Linux and open source gaming.

A: I do take a great deal of personal pride and satisfaction with what I've been able to do with getting so much of the stuff out. Sometimes I think about it, and while I know it's not something I'm generally considered for, I may be one of the most prolific open source authors considering all the code that I've written over the last 15 years that I've made open source, or have made open source there. I do think it's very valuable. I'm very happy when I see both user gaming community stuff, or research universities, or people doing simulation tests, or bringing up things. Every new piece of hardware ends up having Doom or Quake titles used as an early form of test application. So I'm very happy to have done that. It's certainly going to continue. I mean I won't commit to a date, but the Doom 3 stuff will be open source. We still make those decisions even today when we're doing the Rage code when we have decisions about "do we want to integrate some other vendor's solution, some proprietary code into this". And the answer's usually no, because eventually id Tech 5 is going to be open source also. This is still the law of the land at id, that the policy is that we're not going to integrate stuff that's going to make it impossible for us to do an eventual open source release. We can argue the exact pros and cons from a pure business standpoint on it, and I can at least make some, perhaps somewhat, contrived cases that I think it's good for the business, but as a personal conviction it's still pretty important to me and I'm standing by that.

The id-produced title coming out at the end of the month, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, will have a Linux dedicated server and client as well:

http://zerowing.idsoftware.com/linux/etqw/ [idsoftware.com]

Linux client?

When it's done. We have beta testers, they are doing a great job, you don't need to apply. There is still some work to be done before it matches id quality standards, and we won't commit to any dates.

In summary: Don't panic.

Re:Linux needs Windows emulation

[Dr. Manhattan]

Future solution: either using virtualization or crafty API emulation, make Linux be able to transparently run Windows games and software.

Nope, that's a trap [wikipedia.org]. OS/2 was essentially 100% Windows 3.1 compatible, and what happened? Developers thought, "Why bother writing an OS/2 native app when I can just write a Windows app and be compatible?" So OS/2 never got any apps to speak of.

Linux needs a better, cross-platform gaming API. Fortunately, it has one [libsdl.org].

However, if you really have your heart set on compatibility, check out WINE [winehq.org]. I'm running a few older Windows games (Alice, Freedom Force, Tomb Raider III) flawlessly with that. Many of 'em don't work, but I'm surprised how many are playable.

Re:Hmm...

[bluephone]

Actually, I remember that .plan update well. John, Paul Steed, and a bunch of others confronted Kevin Cloud and Adrian about their plan to remake Doom, saying that they felt so strongly to either agree to remake it or fire them. Adrian and Kevin were the other two co-owners beside John. Todd is just the business guy, and couldn't fire John if he wanted to. :) Paul Steed, their modeler, got fired in retaliation though for going along with John's mutiny.

Re:Hmm...

[ACS Solver]

Doom 3, though, has been OpenGL from the start. So when they decided to do a Linux port, it wasn't that complicated. If they truly decide to develop Rage in DirectX, a port would be much harder, requiring lots of rewrites... not something you just spontaneously decide to do around shipping time.

Re:Hmm...

[Schnapple]

Paul Steed, their modeler, got fired in retaliation though for going along with John's mutiny.

It's worth noting that a few years earlier Steed had shot his mouth off several times [gamespy.com] and embarrassed the company, something he never recovered from. Pulling a maneuver like this while working there on borrowed time wasn't the smartest move. Sure, it was retaliation, but it was also the straw that broke the camel's back.

Incidentally some years later the bought out Adrian to get him out of the company - no one knew this until he sued them for it.

Potentially interesting data

[Timbo]

For Tremulous [tremulous.net] (incidentally, based on Quake^H^H^H^H^Hid tech 3), the OS breakdown is as follows:

Windows: 78%
x86 Linux: 16%
ppc OS X: 4%
x86 OS X: 1%
x86_64 Linux: less than 1%
Freebsd: much less than 1%

This is based on approximately 370000 clients. Admittedly the figures are a bit skewed in favour of Windows and Linux as the OS X build is only available from apple.com [apple.com]. The same is true of x86_64 and Freebsd -- those are built manually by whoever is running them (I assume). There are other issues as well as it could be argued that the Linux version is potentially easier to get than the other versions since it has made its way into various packaging systems.

Even if you take this data with a pinch of salt, I think it does reinforce that there is a demand for gaming on Linux. What it doesn't indicate (and I'm not convinced exists) is a demand to pay for gaming on Linux.

Re:You know if I had a dollar for every time...

[Taagehornet]

Actually, unless the reported sales numbers for august [ign.com] are way off it wouldn't surprise me if id games one day chose to abandon the PC platform alltogether:

PC games:
[77,374] Bioshock - 2K Games
[49,126] World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade Expansion Pack - Vivendi

Consoles:
[896,592] Madden NFL 08 - Xbox 360 - Electronic Arts
[643,617] Madden NFL 08 - Playstation 2 - Electronic Arts
[490,910] BioShock - Xbox 360 - 2K Games
[336,189] Madden NFL 08 - Playstation 3 - Electronic Arts
[256,781] Play With Remote - Wii - Nintendo of America

With even the 10th console game outselling [gamedaily.com] the two top PC games combined, I can't help but wonder how (if) the smaller PC game studios turn a profit.

Re:Everyone knows to skip an MS generation

[Some_Llama]

"I have to agree. I don't remember the last time I got bsod or serious errors. It is very stable and fast, even with all the abuse it has received since I did a clean install a couple of years ago."

I'd say the same thing about XP, the only time i have gotten BSOD was with hardware problems. and i'm not a casual user.

A direct response

[John Carmack]

There is certainly no plans for a commercially supported linux version of Rage, but there will very likely be a linux executable made available. It isn't running at the moment, but we have had it compiled in the past. Running on additional platforms usually provides some code quality advantages, and it really only takes one interested programmer to make it happen.

The PC version is still OpenGL, but it is possible that could change before release. The actual API code is not very large, and the vertex / fragment code can be easily translated between cg/hlsl/glsl as necessary. I am going to at least consider OpenGL 3.0 as a target, if Nvidia, ATI, and Intel all have decent support. There really won't be any performance difference between GL 2.0 / GL 3.0 / D3D, so the api decision will be based on secondary factors, of which inertia is one.

John Carmack

Re:You know if I had a dollar for every time...

[kikensei]

Those numbers do not include online retail purchases, Steam purchases (where Bioshock was a big seller) or things like MMO subscriptions. Online purchases, whether from a retailer such as EB Games or Gamestop, orvia digital download, ala Steam or Direct2Drive represent a huge percent of the PC gaming market and are not included in those sales stats. Those stats, while powerful in the industry, don't represent any sort of true depiction of PC sales.

Re:You know if I had a dollar for every time...

[LarsWestergren]

I don't know how many time these sales numbers have to be refuted, but since even the journalists get it wrong, I guess I won't have to stop anytime soon:

A) These numbers do not include online sales. The Steam servers were overloaded when Bioshock was released, and Direct2Drive also had good sales.
B) These numbers are for US only. In many European countries for instance PC sales have a much larger market share.

With even the 10th console game outselling the two top PC games combined, I can't help but wonder how (if) the smaller PC game studios turn a profit.

So if another market B is bigger, that automatically means market A can't make a profit? I hear more Coca Cola bottles are sold than games. Oh noes! The gaming industry is ruined!