Scammers Continue to Wreak Havoc in MMO's 330
eldavojohn writes "We're all well aware of the scams that sometimes happen in online games like Eve Online. But despite this looking primarily like a problem with Eve Online, the MIT Technology Review brings us stories from Second Life and the very real $700,000 (USD) in Linden Dollars that has recently disappeared in what is appearing to be a classic ponzi scheme by a company named Ginko Banking. Unbelievably high interest rates coupled with some shady withdrawal limits leads to classic epic losses to investors. Eve Online was merely virtual currency but Second Life has a real monetary value associated with Linden Dollars & therefore is certain to see more and more scams pop up like this. How can Linden Labs set up a safety net to catch things like this?"
They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
One really obvious way (Score:4, Insightful)
One more point: How can the makers of this game do this without running afoul of the banking regulations of various nations, especially if you can buy/sell Linden dollars directly from the company itself?
Re:They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
--Thomas Tusser
Wait, wait, wait... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:One really obvious way (Score:5, Insightful)
ugh.. (Score:5, Insightful)
If it is too good to be true... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Legality in Second Life (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:EVE Online is a different monster (Score:5, Insightful)
Compared to the endless grind of City of Heroes or World of Warcraft... well, finding a way to deal with scammers in Eve is what makes it the only MMO worth playing.
Re:Laws should not reward the stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
People will also not improve just because you think you're better than they are.
It's not a problem, it's a feature (Score:5, Insightful)
(emphasis mine)
Uhmmmm, hello?
Eve Online is specifically designed to have a player-driven economy and market. As in real life, it is possible to scam people in such a market. This is not just allowed in Eve online, it has in fact been close to actively encouraged (as in, people have asked devs/GM's whether it's ok to do certain things, and got a reply that amounts to "if it's not obviously prohibited by the EULA, go right ahead". It has made for some nice stories as well, some people may remember the story about the Eve Intergalactic Bank [slashdot.org] piramid scam.
The devs consider this kind of thing to be exactly as intended and have even stated so in public forums. So yes, it's a harsh game. It is actually possible to lose the work of several months in a matter of minutes.
Of course, there are still rules/an EULA, for example it's not OK to phish for account details, to sell or buy in-game money for real-world money, etc. However, if you manage to convince hundreds of people that they should invest in your piramid scheme, you should absolutely go right ahead.
Re:They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
If we treat this as a moral or ethical issue, we can reasonably argue that we should let people learn, the hard way, how to be responsible for their own finances, especially in an environment where the actual exposure is relatively minimal (the person they covered lost $144 in this scam, and she apparently made all that money by doing things she liked doing on Second Life anyway -- we're not talking about not being able to pay rent here).
But it's not a moral or ethical issue -- it's a commercial issue. If Linden Labs wants to encourage people to treat Lindenbucks as real money -- and clearly, they do because otherwise they wouldn't set up an exchange rate to the real deal -- then they've got to deal with what is essentially a threat to their profitability. If they don't set up a system where it's safe to exchange money for other tangible goods (and stocks or CDs are tangible), then, in fact, people will learn to protect themselves -- by not transacting with their money and essentially putting their virtual dollars under their virtual mattresses. This is not an outcome that is ideal for Linden Labs -- which is why, regardless of ethics, morality, or "think about the children (or stupid people)!", they should do something to create some sort of reliable, authenticated commerce system that allows for these activities -- out of sheer self interest.
Re:It's a game (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:It's a game (Score:2, Insightful)
You may not have had a choice in entering this world, but you certainly have a choice about playing a game. And putting real money into a game in the form of Linden Dollars is also a choice.
Re:They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, if they deserved that money, they'd be strong enough to still have it, right?
If the smart should be allowed to scam the stupid, why shouldn't the strong be allowed to steal from the the weak?
Re:They shouldn't (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:So if it's a virtual life (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They shouldn't (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm all for personal accountability, but I have a hard time coming behind someone who made poor choices and ripping them a new one for doing something they never could have known they shouldn't do. They are kind like a special classification of victim, lets call it Aggravated assault vs. Plain old Assault. INAL, so don't kill me if my example isn't as exact as it should be.
Scams are simply.... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's financial Darwinism. And, as mentioned many times, the best cons take advantage of someone who "THINKS" that they are scamming someone else, to get something for nothing.
If you are SO gullible, that you think the widow of a Nigerian minister will out of the blue contact you to help claim $millions in aid money, then you, sir or madam, are a dumbass. I don't care if you're a blue-haired granny who makes wonderful cookies for your grandchildren and always is willing to help someone down on their luck.
Dumbass doesn't mean "bad", it just means stupid. And you can't legislate against stupidity. You can apparently ELECT it, but you can't legislate against it.
The moral of this of course, is that if granny gets taken to the cleaners, then perhaps her family shouldn't have let granny so loose on the financial leash, should they? And the upshot of that? Pay attention to the people you care about. Be interested in them and their lives, in what they're doing. If they're going off the rails and you care about them, get involved.
Re:They shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
Hahaha. Aside from some cases of fraud, the majority of these cases are people who normally wouldn't qualify for a regular mortgage, and were offered a subprime mortgage at a higher rate, which allowed them to purchase a home. Some of these people bought a lot more than they could afford, and the homeowners are losing their homes as a result (incidentally, the lenders also lose money in foreclosure).
By comparison, if a bank uses reasonable, impartial criteria (like having a verifiable job, income, down payment & assets) before issuing a mortgage, then civil rights activists would be threatening to sue, saying that the lender is discriminating against minorities.
Yes, it's very sad that these people lose their homes, but they bought much more than they could afford. Back when I wasn't making very much money during the high-tech bust of 2000, I drove a beat-up Honda Civic. No one would sympathize with me if I had bought a big BMW and couldn't keep up with the payments.
Live within your means, and read before you sign anything.
Re:ugh.. (Score:5, Insightful)
If no one had, I was going to.. instead I'll throw my support behind your comment as much as I can with no mod points.
Second Life is just.. just fucking terrible. I've seen articles about second life in all SORTS of publications, because the writers play.. and the funniest one was in a business mag, geared towards management (i can only assume middle.. blegh). Talked about all sorts of buzzwords, bunch of bullshit, you get to the end of the article and the writer included a shot of his in-game character, how nice.
With a tiger's head.
The shit you're forced to read when you're not-working at work and already read the 4-day old newpaper..
Re:It's not a problem, it's a feature (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:They shouldn't (Score:4, Insightful)
What's his incentive?
There are two options. His fantasy is real, or his fantasy is not real. As long as he doesn't know his fantasy isn't real, it's real to him.
What if, for a few thousand dollars, you could believe you had a hot girlfriend who loved you, but the only catch is you have to trust that it's true? You or I may not like this idea, but there are many many people out there who would.
If you don't believe such people exist, just stop by a church on Sunday.
Re:They shouldn't (Score:2, Insightful)
I take your point. But I think that there are still some similarities. In a Ponzi scheme, an investor might be promised a 20% return after 30 days, and he may very well get it, but this 20% is coming from new investors who are just paying in. In order for the system to work, there needs to be a constant stream of new investors. When the number of new investors slows, the system falls apart, and the person running the scheme disappears with the money.
If Social Security continues to be managed as it has in the past, then in a decade or so there will be more money being paid out in the form of benefits than there will be coming in as payroll taxes. This is because there were a lot of baby boomers born after WWII, but they didn't have that many kids (number of children per family reached an all-time low in the 1970s). People are also living longer nowadays. So the system will fall apart because not enough people will be paying into the system compared to the number of people who are receiving benefits.
I realize that Social Security is not an investment program, just a "safety net," and in general I think it's a good idea to have something like this in place. But if the current structure of Social Security does not change, then it will stop working for the same reason that a Ponzi scheme stops working.
Re:They shouldn't (Score:3, Insightful)
People do this all the time, it's called "900 numbers".