1up is republishing a short interview with BioWare's Casey Hudson, the Project Director for their sci-fi epic Mass Effect. The piece originally ran in EGM, and covers a few nagging details left behind by the project, things like "What happened to the ability to interrupt people?", or "What's up with the UI?". "Hudson: Well, the item comparison is probably a lot better than KOTOR's because we now show you a graph that compares [the stats] of one weapon to another. As you can imagine, the inventory-management system for a role-playing game is probably one of the biggest and most complicated systems. It's actually one of the drawbacks to giving people so much to do and so many things. We didn't get much negative feedback during development with the inventory screen, although [if stuff doesn't work right], that's definitely something we want to fix in the future." That's a really deft way of handling that question, but I have to say: despite my deep and abiding love for the game, the user interface is an affront to Tufte.
Had to play it through twice for it. 2x by the consort on Citadel then once each by Ashley and Liara. Doing the blue chick made me feel cool like Captain Kirk.
When you get your initial reward after finishing her mission it's just some new-age touchy-feely speech. One of the replies is something to the effect of "That's it?!" Choose that and it's SEX WITH A BLUE CHICK!!!!111````
You need to have been nice to both of them, nice enough that they both want to jump your bones. If that's the case, they'll confront you and ask you to choose. On my renegade playtrhough I was a jerk to both of them and only managed to barely salvage things enough to nail the blue chick, (After which I returned to renegade mode with "Time for round two.") But I didnt get the demand to choose between them. I do think Ashley is a way better match for a Renegade character though, she's human centric and an assk
Personally, after only about an hour of play, I kind of liked the way that the inventory and barter system worked...the interface is quite easy to work with. In my opinion, the ONLY two things missing is the ability to filter/sort your stuff, and a raise on the relatively low item cap limit (towards the end of the game, you start seeing the message telling you that you are close to capacity rather frequently) Other than that, I think the inventory system was quite effective and easy to use (yes, even with
It wasn't criminally bad, but they could have learned a lot from, say, Oblivion on how to do it. Oblivion's map/inventory interface was better in pretty much every way, and it's a couple years old now.
No page-up/page-down functionality. Those lists got really, really long.
No way to cancel out of the upgrade screen without 're-upgrading' the current mod. Which is at the top of the list you have probably just scrolled to the bottom of.
No indication of how much stuff you have relative to your limit. A simple ###/150 somewhere on the screen would work.
I just hope they make more sex scenes, and make them more detailed, vivid, and kinky. I'll show a video of the scenes to Kevin McCollough and Jack Thompson, and tell them that I let my 5 yr old son play the game.
The paraphrases were opportunities to replace a well-written, well-crafted sentence with something that makes the player chuckle -- but also tells them exactly what will happen if they make that choice.
I found that there were a significant number of times where my expectation of what Shepard would say didn't quite match what he/she ended up saying. And even more annoying, sometimes I would agonize over a choice, only to later find out that the resulting dialogue was the same for either choice. Why are we given the ability to decide what's going through Shepard's head if it doesn't make a difference?
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the engine evolves for the next game. Any improvement is going to seem really significant if most of the engine is the same.
Ironically, I just started playing Mass Effect last night (yeah, I put off purchasing a 360 for a long time. Finally broke down and picked up the Arcade package + ME on the way home from work yesterday). I've put about 45 minutes to an hour into the game so far, but I can agree that to someone new to the game, it's a bit of a confusing interface. Then again the *only* game I've played in the last year and a half is WoW (which I'm taking a break from now), so just about anything different feels odd at this
The problem is not that it is confusing, the problem is that after about 10 hours in you start getting the "Inventory Almost Full" message. Then you spend 30 minutes cleaning out the inventory because there is no sort-by-item-level when you are at a vendor. Plus the scrolling speed is extremely slow. Consoles games stink for inventory management, but this game was the worst of the worst. Just give me a mouse and some bags.
I'm actually in the process of writing my review for Mass Effect right now, I've found it's one of the hardest reviews to write in a long time. The game does a lot of things really, really well: story, universe, history, characters, dialogue, graphics. But in pretty much every category I review I can pick out some really big blemishes.
Take the graphics for instance, the game is beautiful and the characters look relatively real, their facial structure is complicated enough to basically do any kind of movement realistically. The environments are large and well textured... when all the textures are there. The game (maybe more Unreal Engine 3) suffers from some really nasty texture draw-in as it layers the textures. Some cutscenes will start and the characters will look nothing like their actual appearance because all the textures and bump/normal mapping hasn't been performed yet. A few seconds in and finally everything will look "right," but that's after some obtrusive pop up was performed that can be quite distracting. I would rather have had a few longer loading screens than that, honestly.
A lot of people complained about the elevators serving as load screens in the game, I never really had a problem with them. In most, your fellow party members will talk amongst themselves or you'll hear a radio report. The problem I had was they put an elevator on your ship that was a mandatory ride! This elevator must only travel about 15 feet but it takes at least a minute to ride. And if you want to buy anything on your ship or talk to most of your crew members, you must ride the elevator (and then of course ride it back up). Annoying, and I really only think it was necessary because of all the particle and graphical effects they were doing in the engine room.
Another complaint I have is with the inventory system. It's not that bad when you're equipping people, usually you only have a few shotguns or sniper rifles to pick from. The problems start when you have a lot of a certain type of item. Like upgrades. You'll usually carry a lot of different upgrades around because you never know if you'll need them. The item are arranged in basically a non-sorted order (I think sorted by when you obtained them...) so you'll find yourself scrolling through scores of items to find the one you need. Scrolling is NOT fast, either. This issue is multiplied when you go to a shop. If you want to buy or sell something, the items are not organized in a way that you can easily buy only pistols or only armor. No, they're ordered in ascending order according to price if you're selling and descending order if you're buying. There's no other way to sort them. It's incredibly obnoxious and makes item management the single worst thing about this game.
My final complaint is about the Mako ground transport vehicle and the subsequent side missions. Well, really my complaint is more about planet/level design than anything. Every planet is riddled with high mountains and usually the items of interest are stuck in these mountains. The Mako vehicle is surprisingly capable of climbing peaks, etc. but it is still really annoying to go from point A to point B. This is a little harder to describe if you haven't played the game but imagine playing Halo and driving the Warthog (a much looser version at that) over all the mountains in your way to get to your next checkpoint.
Okay, even though that was a lot of complaining, Mass Effect was still awesome. Those are my stand out issues with the game and I have some confidence they will fix most of them with its impending sequels. Mass Effect is still a must play game, especially for science fiction fans.
Dude, "Offworld Offroad Mining Survey Action Racer" is one of my favorite games within Mass Effect. I love it! Every peak is a fun challenge.
I spent thirty minutes last night running (sans Mako!) from one edge of the map to the other on a windy, red planet just because it was awesome. I felt like a character in "Red Mars".
Hmmmm... 1) The UE3 engine as far as I know gives you a choice -- load times or texture pop-in. As bothersome as the texture pop-in is, I think I prefer it over load times. So it was a design choice, and I'm not sure it's a bad one. Some people prefer one way, some prefer the other.
2) The items are sorted according to Level from what I could tell. The VIIs, then the VIs, then the Vs, etc. That roughly corresponded to price if you were Buying/Selling. Also, folks that ran into inventory size issues kept waaaa
Right, but when you're first playing the game it seems safer to hoarde things as you figure out what they do. After a while you realize you don't need to keep anything you aren't using, and you generally don't need to buy anything but med-pack/grenade upgrades until you can afford spectre weapons.
Mass Effect, like Final Fantasy XII, has the behind-the-character camera in way the wrong place. All you can see of Cmdr. Shepard or Vaan is their butt. The rest of the world might be the most wonderfully realised piece of CG art you'll ever see, but if you can't detach the camera from the hero's backside, it's all for naught.
I'd been on the Citadel for three hours before I realised I'd never looked up. Do you have any sense of how tall the the room leading towards the council panel in the Citadel Tower is?
I agree that they really dropped the ball when it came to the inventory system. I liked the game a lot, but that was despite great annoyance with the inventory. Why can't I find out the number of items I have before you start complaining that I'm running out of room? Why is there a pause at each item so I can't quickly scroll through a list? I think the bigger problem though, is that the whole system of money and items is just broken. The only things I ever bought were the Specter guns and the MediGel/Grenad
When I began playing Mass Effect, I knew it was mostly very well reviewed, but I hadn't read any specifics (on purpose, to avoid spoilers). And I agreed with the numerical values in said reviews at first glance; the game is definitely a lot of fun, and well done overall. However, after having watched my brother play his "good" character most of the way through the game then playing my evil character through on my own, I was certain the thing it'd be losing points for every time was the dialogue system. H
Paragon/Renegade doesn't affect dialog choices. Your Intimidation/Charisma skills do. It's simply that using those skills tend to accrue renegade/paragon appropriately.
I don't think the system was suppposed to be Good/Evil. Shepard is a hero. (S)he is, at the core a good guy, fighting the good fight. Paragon/Renegade simply define the character a little more deeply. The best definition of Renegade is that you accomplish your goals no matter what the cost. You're ruthless, but not evil.
Paragon/Renegade doesn't affect dialog choices. Your Intimidation/Charisma skills do. It's simply that using those skills tend to accrue renegade/paragon appropriately.
They do actually affect your dialog choices indirectly, as your Charm/Intimidate skill is capped according to your Paragon/Renegade score respectively.
I think you're greatly oversimplifying. The complexity isn't in storing the bits of data, it's in designing a system that's intuitive for players. Not to mention that I'd bet that the actual data structures are much more complex than you described above.
Yes I'm oversimplifying, but to state it's the hardest part is ridiculous. As for the data, I'm pretty sure that my struct covers all the data you'd actually need for the items. I genuinely ask you, can you think of anything specific that's missing there?
Yes I'm oversimplifying, but to state it's the hardest part is ridiculous. As for the data, I'm pretty sure that my struct covers all the data you'd actually need for the items. I genuinely ask you, can you think of anything specific that's missing there?
Yes: an understanding of what you're doing, and what you're dealing with.
For a start, you're going to need to have an extensible object system to handle the sorts of things which can be stored in the inventory; a bottle has different properties than a sword. For a second thing, the limits to what can go in an inventory is not a fixed number of items; it depends on the size and on the weight of the items. When adding an item to the list, you have to determine whether there's physical room for it in the p
I'm not talking about inventory systems in general. I'm talking about the Mass Effect inventory system. ALL items of any type have 3 stats, there is a hard limit of 150 items (of any type). There is no weight or size. There are no bags, you can just have 0-150 items in your inventory. That's it.
You're absolutely right that people will insist on changes, however I'm just talking from a strict number of hours to write POV. As for feedback and use cases, the inventory system in mass effect is incredibly simple. [On the assumption you've not played it, theres a handful of slots where you can place items from your inventory, a 150 item limit on the inventory].
For modifications, that's just an item id in something like '(char)character.weapon.mod1'. Consumable, you can press a button (I think it's Y) d
I've played mass effect, I've coded games, and I can promise you that such a structure would be at least three times as large.
Description, cost, icon, colour (since items with the same skin are colour shaded differently).. and thats just to display the damn thing. Internally, there'd be a lot more simply because items would be a specialized form of a larger abstraction of game assets. Not many games these days are written out of pure C and no abstraction of game asset data structures.
However.. what the hell does any of this have to do with an inventory screen? The complaints were about usability. It doesn't matter how complicated/simple the data is, the issue is that the UI to equip/unequip and manage your items was too simplistic given that as a player, you're switching your inventory items in and out relatively often.
I think they missed out big time on not allowing you to build preset load outs you could switch between, and the button mapping for the control of the inventory screen was unintuitive at best. That has nothing to do with coding; thats an interface design (or possibly just a feature scope) issue.
BTW, you'd be shot on sight for using a character buffer to represent any form of id outside of a debug name for debug builds around here. Why use ("character.weapon.mod1"), a 20 byte string in presumably a 32 byte string buffer for an id?!? It's easy to hand wave, but the devil is in the details, and the same goes for interface design.
Sorry, wasn't quite clear there; I meant "character.weapon.mod1" to represent inheritance, not as an identifier; which as you quite correctly point out does not take into consideration asset abstraction, which I suppose complicates things, taking my estimates out of context.
Having played mass effect and coded games, would you agree with me that it really doesn't constitue a significant portion of dev?
Having Played Mass Effect, and worked in game Dev, I would agree that you are absolutely the source of the problem, in that you can't even figure out what the problem was to begin with! You just take something the dev director said out of context, misinterpret it, then argue it. Storing item data? Yeah, that's just a few bits of data in a database, or whatever, but making a functional UI to handle 100's of items across multiple characters in dozens of configurations? Adding, subtracting, comparing items quic
I think you're greatly oversimplifying. The complexity isn't in storing the bits of data, it's in designing a system that's intuitive for players. Not to mention that I'd bet that the actual data structures are much more complex than you described above.
Having written a couple of such games, the data structures really are that simple. But designing an intuitive UI is not simple at all, you are right about that part.
In fact, the more I think about this, the sillier it sounds. Excluding artwork and meshes, I could code the entire Mass Effect inventory system in a day (The hardest part about the whole thing is the animation of the avatar, the rest is fresh grad stuff). Throw in the artwork and meshes, and I could produce the entire thing by myself in a week.
There's only 8 buttons, one xy pair of input, and two different screens!
I should learn to keep quiet about these things, but I'm not trying to be arrogant. I work in C++ OpenGL interfaces every day, and based on my experience of the complexity of the inventory system, this is my genuine opinion about the length time it would take to implement. I'm not talking about the rest of the game - that would take a long time, but the inventory system along - Given the design spec and drawings, really isn't that complex imo.
You can't see the forest for the trees. Yes, you are being extremely arrogant. You're talking strictly about engineering. They were talking about exposed design, user interaction, and user interface. How the data is stored in memory and manipulated is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. From an engineering perspective, the amount of work required for that part IS trivial. From an interface implementation perspective, its not that difficult, just time consuming. But when it comes down to actual
The hard part isn't coding it. As you say, that's pretty trivial, especially for one as simple as Mass Effect. The hard part is designing it - complex enough to have impact on tactics/strategy, simple enough to be usable on a console, usability testing it to ensure it doesn't confuse people, etc.
Generally, I thought the Mass Effect inventory system is pretty good, but it's really let down by the apparent rush job they made of the items themselves. There aren't any items you can get that aren't weapons, b
It's not about how the data is stored, it's about how the data is presented and manipulated. Writing, say, the spec for HTML tables is very simple compared to implemented a fully compliant table renderer.
I don't think Mass Effect was overhyped...in fact, in every review that I read of it (which was many, I assure you) they DRILLED into the things that it does wrong...the texture pop-in, some funky animations, etc. Nearly every review universally praised the game, and nearly every review universally blasted the same negative parts of the game. That's just it though. If a game has mistakes in it that would normally be a deal-breaker for other games, Mass Effect is amazing in many people's eyes DESPITE it's s
"Mass Effect is amazing in many people's eyes DESPITE it's shortcomings. That is a sign of a truely great game."
Actually no, it's a sign of a game that was released before it was time to release it and a rushed development.
God of War and God of War 2 had little anyone could complain about because the team actually took the time and busted their asses to make it the best it could be. The same cannot be said for mass effect.
I got laid 4 times in Mass Effect (Score:5, Funny)
Had to play it through twice for it. 2x by the consort on Citadel then once each by Ashley and Liara. Doing the blue chick made me feel cool like Captain Kirk.
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Re:I got laid 4 times in Mass Effect (Score:4, Informative)
You can score with the consort?
You bet!
When you get your initial reward after finishing her mission it's just some new-age touchy-feely speech. One of the replies is something to the effect of "That's it?!" Choose that and it's SEX WITH A BLUE CHICK!!!!111````
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On my renegade playtrhough I was a jerk to both of them and only managed to barely salvage things enough to nail the blue chick, (After which I returned to renegade mode with "Time for round two.") But I didnt get the demand to choose between them. I do think Ashley is a way better match for a Renegade character though, she's human centric and an assk
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That said, some of the negative options are damn hilarious, like when she says her dead father is still watching over her, "He's not a zombie, is he?"
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Did you give your character a toupee, too?
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Speaking of which, how's your mom doing?
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My opinion on the inventory system (Score:2)
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More sex scenes! (Score:3, Funny)
Crystallization (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the engine evolves for the next game. Any improvement is going to seem really significant if most of the engine is the same.
Shouldn't the headline be: (Score:2)
A response (Score:2)
Yes, the dialog system does look interesting... it is lacking an important feature [ctrlaltdel-online.com], though.
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I can agree (Score:2)
I've put about 45 minutes to an hour into the game so far, but I can agree that to someone new to the game, it's a bit of a confusing interface. Then again the *only* game I've played in the last year and a half is WoW (which I'm taking a break from now), so just about anything different feels odd at this
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My take (Score:3, Interesting)
Take the graphics for instance, the game is beautiful and the characters look relatively real, their facial structure is complicated enough to basically do any kind of movement realistically. The environments are large and well textured... when all the textures are there. The game (maybe more Unreal Engine 3) suffers from some really nasty texture draw-in as it layers the textures. Some cutscenes will start and the characters will look nothing like their actual appearance because all the textures and bump/normal mapping hasn't been performed yet. A few seconds in and finally everything will look "right," but that's after some obtrusive pop up was performed that can be quite distracting. I would rather have had a few longer loading screens than that, honestly.
A lot of people complained about the elevators serving as load screens in the game, I never really had a problem with them. In most, your fellow party members will talk amongst themselves or you'll hear a radio report. The problem I had was they put an elevator on your ship that was a mandatory ride! This elevator must only travel about 15 feet but it takes at least a minute to ride. And if you want to buy anything on your ship or talk to most of your crew members, you must ride the elevator (and then of course ride it back up). Annoying, and I really only think it was necessary because of all the particle and graphical effects they were doing in the engine room.
Another complaint I have is with the inventory system. It's not that bad when you're equipping people, usually you only have a few shotguns or sniper rifles to pick from. The problems start when you have a lot of a certain type of item. Like upgrades. You'll usually carry a lot of different upgrades around because you never know if you'll need them. The item are arranged in basically a non-sorted order (I think sorted by when you obtained them...) so you'll find yourself scrolling through scores of items to find the one you need. Scrolling is NOT fast, either. This issue is multiplied when you go to a shop. If you want to buy or sell something, the items are not organized in a way that you can easily buy only pistols or only armor. No, they're ordered in ascending order according to price if you're selling and descending order if you're buying. There's no other way to sort them. It's incredibly obnoxious and makes item management the single worst thing about this game.
My final complaint is about the Mako ground transport vehicle and the subsequent side missions. Well, really my complaint is more about planet/level design than anything. Every planet is riddled with high mountains and usually the items of interest are stuck in these mountains. The Mako vehicle is surprisingly capable of climbing peaks, etc. but it is still really annoying to go from point A to point B. This is a little harder to describe if you haven't played the game but imagine playing Halo and driving the Warthog (a much looser version at that) over all the mountains in your way to get to your next checkpoint.
Okay, even though that was a lot of complaining, Mass Effect was still awesome. Those are my stand out issues with the game and I have some confidence they will fix most of them with its impending sequels. Mass Effect is still a must play game, especially for science fiction fans.
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I spent thirty minutes last night running (sans Mako!) from one edge of the map to the other on a windy, red planet just because it was awesome. I felt like a character in "Red Mars".
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1) The UE3 engine as far as I know gives you a choice -- load times or texture pop-in. As bothersome as the texture pop-in is, I think I prefer it over load times. So it was a design choice, and I'm not sure it's a bad one. Some people prefer one way, some prefer the other.
2) The items are sorted according to Level from what I could tell. The VIIs, then the VIs, then the Vs, etc. That roughly corresponded to price if you were Buying/Selling. Also, folks that ran into inventory size issues kept waaaa
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Mass Effect (Score:2)
All you can see of Cmdr. Shepard or Vaan is their butt. The rest of the world might be the most wonderfully realised piece of CG art you'll ever see, but if you can't detach the camera from the hero's backside, it's all for naught.
I'd been on the Citadel for three hours before I realised I'd never looked up. Do you have any sense of how tall the the room leading towards the council panel in the Citadel Tower is?
Too bad about the inventory (Score:2)
I think the bigger problem though, is that the whole system of money and items is just broken. The only things I ever bought were the Specter guns and the MediGel/Grenad
Dialogue Woes (Score:2)
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I don't think the system was suppposed to be Good/Evil. Shepard is a hero. (S)he is, at the core a good guy, fighting the good fight. Paragon/Renegade simply define the character a little more deeply. The best definition of Renegade is that you accomplish your goals no matter what the cost. You're ruthless, but not evil.
I find it int
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Re:Oh come on! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yes I'm oversimplifying, but to state it's the hardest part is ridiculous. As for the data, I'm pretty sure that my struct covers all the data you'd actually need for the items. I genuinely ask you, can you think of anything specific that's missing there?
Yes: an understanding of what you're doing, and what you're dealing with.
For a start, you're going to need to have an extensible object system to handle the sorts of things which can be stored in the inventory; a bottle has different properties than a sword. For a second thing, the limits to what can go in an inventory is not a fixed number of items; it depends on the size and on the weight of the items. When adding an item to the list, you have to determine whether there's physical room for it in the p
Re:Oh come on! (Score:4, Informative)
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For modifications, that's just an item id in something like '(char)character.weapon.mod1'. Consumable, you can press a button (I think it's Y) d
Re:Oh come on! (Score:5, Interesting)
Description, cost, icon, colour (since items with the same skin are colour shaded differently)
However
I think they missed out big time on not allowing you to build preset load outs you could switch between, and the button mapping for the control of the inventory screen was unintuitive at best. That has nothing to do with coding; thats an interface design (or possibly just a feature scope) issue.
BTW, you'd be shot on sight for using a character buffer to represent any form of id outside of a debug name for debug builds around here. Why use ("character.weapon.mod1"), a 20 byte string in presumably a 32 byte string buffer for an id?!? It's easy to hand wave, but the devil is in the details, and the same goes for interface design.
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Having played mass effect and coded games, would you agree with me that it really doesn't constitue a significant portion of dev?
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Storing item data? Yeah, that's just a few bits of data in a database, or whatever, but making a functional UI to handle 100's of items across multiple characters in dozens of configurations? Adding, subtracting, comparing items quic
Not oversimplifying (Score:2, Interesting)
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There's only 8 buttons, one xy pair of input, and two different screens!
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You're talking strictly about engineering. They were talking about exposed design, user interaction, and user interface. How the data is stored in memory and manipulated is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. From an engineering perspective, the amount of work required for that part IS trivial. From an interface implementation perspective, its not that difficult, just time consuming. But when it comes down to actual
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The hard part isn't coding it. As you say, that's pretty trivial, especially for one as simple as Mass Effect. The hard part is designing it - complex enough to have impact on tactics/strategy, simple enough to be usable on a console, usability testing it to ensure it doesn't confuse people, etc.
Generally, I thought the Mass Effect inventory system is pretty good, but it's really let down by the apparent rush job they made of the items themselves. There aren't any items you can get that aren't weapons, b
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Now if only game developers were that smart.
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I apologize if this is pedantic... (Score:2)
I am not aware if structs violate any public decency laws, however. I prefer only letting friends see private members.
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That's just it though. If a game has mistakes in it that would normally be a deal-breaker for other games, Mass Effect is amazing in many people's eyes DESPITE it's s
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Actually no, it's a sign of a game that was released before it was time to release it and a rushed development.
God of War and God of War 2 had little anyone could complain about because the team actually took the time and busted their asses to make it the best it could be. The same cannot be said for mass effect.
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