Microsoft Insider Details Xbox 360 Red Ring Problems

kylemonger writes "A blogger at the Seattle PI has interviewed a Microsoft insider about the Xbox 360 project. The insider purports to have the background story on the 'red ring of death' (RROD) failures and why they are so common. 'RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life. There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD.'"

Calling Shenanigans...

[toupsie]

Even though I just sent in my third XBOX 360 for RROD repair after the great XBOX Live failure of 2007/2008, something about this interview just doesn't seem right. Why would a Microsoft "insider" risk their employment spilling well known issues about the XBOX 360 as "secrets" to a blog very read. That doesn't sound like a good career move.

Nothing new!

[superash]

The insider purports to have the background story on the 'red ring of death' (RROD) failures and why they are so common

What background story? Cheap parts, not enough testing blah blah...Where are the specifics?...and the causes mentioned for RROD were already known ages back.

Re:2nd time's not the charm

[Gideon Fubar]

Notably, none of these things had a GPU, CPU, heatsinks of any kind.. They did have a nice solid feel and reliable switches though.

Q: My HDD died MS wants $100 to replace...

[Anonymous Coward]

So yeah, my HDD died and it's gonna cost $100 to replace, is there any way to force a RRoD so they'll fix my xbox under warranty?

When will people learn

[Matt867]

You simply cannot trust a product from Microsoft not to screw up. I seriously doubt any of us Windows users haven't had to reformat at least once (of the Windows users here anyway). I bought a Zune and it was dead in a month. On top of that me and 3 friends got x-box 360's one way or another and 2 of them got the 3 RRODs(I honestly don't use my 360 much, this computer completely blows it away as far as gaming, it can boot 3 different OS's, it allows me to network myself without paying a forced subscription fee, AND it doesn't get hot enough to warp its own motherboard. Beat that Microsoft.)

Re:exactly what I guessed.

[dj42]

The "hand test" is pointless. *puts hand on the back of my computer* Well, I can feel warm air! My computer must have poor design when it comes to dealing with heat. Except that is how it is designed to work. I put it together in a way that funnels heat out the back of the computer. And I can monitor temperatures of my CPU, GPU, and hard drives, which could reveal a potential for failure. But sticking my hand on it is a sure fire way of figuring that out too?

Re:Calling Shenanigans...

[rob1980]

In the middle of '03 I tried to convince our director of "innovation" that we needed to do motion control, simple and intuitive controllers, and focus on family oriented and just plain fun content.

Were employees lined up outside this director's door to extol the virtues of motion-sensitive controllers? If not, a sufficiently-motivated manhunt could probably narrow down who this person is fairly quickly.

Re:Calling Shenanigans...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how likely this is, but if I were spilling company secrets I would intentionally make it seem as though the leek were coming from someone else. It's possible that some of the things are simply there in order to shift the suspicion onto someone else. There were a few other instances in the article where the informant made some comments that would make it easier to trace the leek back to some person more easily, but it's possible that they've been placed there carefully in order to draw the suspicion off the informant rather than to him.

It's also possible that his statements are true, but the manager that he made them to is no longer employed at Microsoft. There are a few other possible cases where reveling this information doesn't cost him anything and even the case where he doesn't care if he's fired from the job so whether or not the leek is traced back to him is irrelevant.

Re:The Xbox 360 Is Fundamentally Defective

[p0tat03]

Windows succeeds for the same reasons the Xbox 360 will continue selling despite its reliability problems - software. It's the platform with the software people want to run, and nothing will change that unless the other platforms start getting killer apps.

Re:The Xbox 360 Is Fundamentally Defective

[NothingMore]

It is common now for people to have gone through five to six Xbox 360s over the past two years. And people who have had to have their console replaced ten or more times is not rare.

I wouldent call it "common" for people to have gone through 5 or 6 xbox 360's. I dont know a single person who owns a xbox 360 that has had it replaced 5 or 6 times. The RROD is a problem but saying 5-6 replacements is common is a bit of a stretch.

Re:Preventative measures?

[Datamonstar]

Dude, my SNES has PENNIES rattling around in it and it still plays. There's no excuse for the crap we put up with on these over-priced consoles.

Re:Calling Shenanigans...

[tiffany98121]

unless he knew the guy didn't work there any more, and that's why he felt safe in divulging that detail

Re:When will people learn

[coaxial]

I bought a Zune

Well there's your problem right there.

Honestly. You're ranting about how bad Microsoft is and how stupid anyone is to buy a Microsoft product, but you go on to give an entire litany of all the products you repeatedly purchase and how they repeatedly suck. Apparently, you haven't learned your lesson, and by your own standard, are a fool.

this computer completely blows it away as far as gaming, it can boot 3 different OS's, it allows me to network myself without paying a forced subscription fee, AND it doesn't get hot enough to warp its own motherboard. Beat that Microsoft.

Well given that your machine boots XP, or as I strongly suspect given your apparent propensity to purchase anything Microsoft, Vista, I don't think Microsoft has to beat that. They have your money, and another customer on the upgrade treadmill.

Re:The Blessing And Curse Of The Xbox/HD-DVD Crowd

[tholomyes]

Are you high? Don't buy first-rev hardware, and don't buy add-ons for "next-gen" video formats that are (a.) only marginally better than current-gen offerings and (b.) are in the middle of a format war. Problems solved. The 360, a gaming console, sold itself to the crowds because it has good fucking games.

And while I do know people that are MS-exclusive fans, I honestly have never met anyone who has said-- of virtually any product-- "I will buy a product from any random manufacturer as long as it's not X, Inc." Anyone who's that concerned about who the "Evil Manufacturer" is isn't going to just blindly choose any secondary option, especially not from Microsoft. They're not exactly a "warm fuzzies" megacorp.

Microsoft inventing their own terminology as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

"Digital backbone" and (my favourite) "core digital error". As usual, Microsoft having to come up with their own terminology for what the rest of the real world would refer to as "hardware flaw" or "engineering mistake".

We'd better start calling the RROD the "ruddy halo of definitive binary turkey washout".

Microsoft -- reinventing the wheel... into some kind of odd mix between a rhombus and a Moebius strip.

Re:exactly what I guessed.

[Splab]

What a load of BS. Yes back in the days heat was a big deal, going at 50 degrees Celsius was bad, but these days its less of a problem. My CPU is running at around 70 degrees Celsius, my GPU is at 80 degrees Celsius under load, my room however is at 20 degrees Celsius, so quite significant failures at +20 isn't happening.

Most new consumer hardware can sustain temperature to a point close to 100 degrees Celsius before critical failure happens.

Oh and smart consumer putting a hand on the product? are you fucking insane? The heat sink on my stuff will burn your hand under load.

Re:Put it in a hot box

[Alioth]

Since this is the natural place for living room electronics: neatly installed in some under-TV cabinet, surely it behooves the manufacturer to design their equipment to live where many people are going to instinctively put them?

RoHS

[lophophore]

BGA problems are exacerbated by the use of lead-free (F*cking RoHS [wikipedia.org]) solder. This is not just a XBOX 360 problem, my iPod mini died because of crummy solder under the portalplayer BGA chip, apparently a common failure. The RoHS initiative has caused some of the most unreliable electronics to be made in 30 years.

Manufacturers are still learning how to deal with lead-free solder, and until they do, you can expect your shiny electronic gadgets to turn into bookends and doorstops with grim regularity.

Re:Put it in a hot box

[Jesus_666]

Microsoft catering to the needs of the user? Come on, everyone knows it works the other way around.

Re:What I don't understand...

[wagemonkey]

Ohhh - you mean the PS3 was properly designed as a domestic appliance...