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Great idea, and all.. (Score:5, Insightful)
At least, not any more than console gaming needed saving...
Well it isn't dead like some claim (Score:4, Informative)
But I think it is heading in a dangerous direction. No big deal yet, but if it continues it could be headed down a bad path.
Basically there are three somewhat related problems right now:
1) Console first releases. Many games are coming out for consoles first, and then only later being ported to PC. Now while there are PC gamers who only own a PC (I'm one of them) there are people who own consoles and PCs. This leads to artificially lower PC sales on a given title. Someone may prefer playing a given kind of game on their PC, but if they have to wait, they may elect not to and get the console version instead. They are then unlikely to buy the PC version as well. For example I have a friend who owns a 360, a PS3 and a gaming PC (yes he has too much money). When Mass Effect came out, he wanted it right away and got the 360 version. He'd rather have the PC version, PC controls are nicer for a game like that not to mention the ability to hack around with it for more replayability, however he isn't going to buy it twice. Thus the PC version sees lower sales than it might otherwise.
2) Poor PC ports. Consoles and PCs work real different in terms of controls, as anyone who's messed with both can tell you. So if you want to do a game for both, and do it right, you have to spend time making two versions. You need to customize it to work well on it's various platforms. Same deal with multiple consoles, actually. However, there are an increasing number of games developed for the console, and then kinda half-ass ported to the PC. They don't play well, they don't feel like a PC game, and they often don't work very well. Leads to a situation where you are getting an inferior experience playing on the PC. This again leads to lower PC game sales. If a game comes out for PC and 360 and you've got both, you'll get the 360 version if the PC version sucks, even if you much prefer PC gaming.
3) DRM/copyprotection problems. The DRM on PC games is getting more and more problematic. Time was, you really had next to zero problems with it. All that it was is some areas of the disc not normally used (like subchannels and stuff) messed with and a little wrapper around the executable. Worked on essentially every system since everything was within the CD standards, and there wasn't any system level trickery. Now this was, of course, easy for pros to defeat. Well the DRM companies can't seem to understand that his is a fight you can't win, you can't give someone an encrypted file, the decryption key, and expect that they can't use that to their own ends, so they keep upping the ante to counter new tools. Thus now we have extremely complicated DRM that causes lots of problems on lots of systems. It is quite possible to buy a retail game and have it say your disc isn't valid (happened to be with Civ 4 BTS). Hell in some cases the DRM can even fuck up your system. Well this also leads to lower sales.
So what is happening is that various publishers are seeing lower PC sales, especially as compared to the console market. So they then get this "Well fuck the PC, let's do console only," idea, especially since they incorrectly seem to believe consoles are immune from game copying (someone should point them to the Games > XBOX360 category on TPB). Now that could spell a problem for PC gaming, since it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. They do stupid things that reduce PC sales, so they see lower sales, so they don't want to work at making PC games, which leads to lower PC sales, etc.
So no, PC gaming isn't in dire straits or anything, and hell it'll be alive and well in some form so long as casual games and MMOs continue to find their stronghold on the PC market. However, the direction it is heading isn't a good one. Better to notice this and deal with it while things are still healthy, than to wait until it's a crisis (see the current mortgage problems).
Parent
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Re:Great idea, and all.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're a bit confused.
PC gaming is very much alive. Casual gamers number in the tens of millions for PC. Ever play a flash game on the web?
Even the hardcore gamer who upgrades his rig once a year or more is still very much alive. Hardware manufacturers wouldn't exist if we weren't buying their stuff.
That being said, I think large publishers like EA and Ubisoft are trying to kill PC gaming. It's not really as big a revenue stream for them as console games.
It is, however, the place for innovation. Ubisoft wouldn't exist if not for Cliff Blezinski and Tim Sweeney. And, Epic is continuing to innovate, though not as much as some other developers. Their revenue stream has shifted to something way more sustainable, engine licensing.
You still have plenty of developers continuing to innovate. Steam, ID, Crytek to name a few.
Though I agree with a few others here, that the large publishers are bad for the vitality of the gaming industry on a whole, it stands to reason that just as shit floats to the top, the industry will continue to consolitdate as long as their is money to be made. And, as long as there is money to be made, publishers will try and take as much of the pot as they can through consolidation and other anti-competitive practices.
Parent
Re:Great idea, and all.. (Score:5, Informative)
That being said, I think large publishers like EA and Ubisoft are trying to kill PC gaming. It's not really as big a revenue stream for them as console games.
Don't forget about Microsoft! Games for Windows is a cruel joke. It seems to be primarily about them padding profits by giving the PC sloppy seconds on games that get shoveled out for the 360. They tend to look like ass and play even worse because nobody bothers to make the games actually play like PC games and take advantage of the strengths of the platform. Seems like Microsoft is more determined than anyone to kill PC gaming.
Parent
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"Don't forget about Microsoft! Games for Windows is a cruel joke. It seems to be primarily about them padding profits by giving the PC sloppy seconds on games that get shoveled out for the 360."
*Looks at the Sins of Solar Empire box he just purchased*
Wow! Danse's right. Just look at the sloppy seconds, games for Windows tagged box I just got. Whatever will I do?
Re:Great idea, and all.. (Score:5, Informative)
Don't let any rabid Apple Fan hear you. Halo was originally a full OpenGL Mac game. Fans still remember the Jobs keynote "Great games are coming back to the Mac", with Jason Jones showing a cinematic with "all this is rendered real time, in OpenGL"... Bungee was a Mac-only outfit, until Microsoft, sniffing out a potential flagship game for its new XBOX system, bought them out in 2000, sank the whole Mac/OpenGL part, and... the rest is history.
Parent
Re:Great idea, and all.. (Score:4, Informative)
Bungie hadn't been Mac only for years, check out later versions of Marathon, and Myth was released Windows and Mac simultaneously.
Parent
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It was worse than that. Halo was originally going to be a Mac game with the Windows version coming out the same day. Bungie made their rep as game developers for the Mac, most notably the Marathon franchise.
Halo got revealed at Macworld in 1999 I believe. Then MS bought Bungie and then there was no Mac version at all. It got immortalized [penny-arcade.com] in a PA strip.
The GP has a point, but games is about the only thing I use Windows for these days. Without 'em, I have even fewer reasons to hop on the Windows upgrade m
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First off - playing with a gamepad can be a lot easier and more relaxing than playing with mouse / keyboard combo. For C&C3, you should be using mouse / keyboard. For GoW, Bioshock, Assasin's Creed, you're better off with the gamepad.
AC maybe. The others, not a chance. Do we need to revisit the mouse/kb vs. gamepad precision argument again? When it comes to aiming, mouse/kb wins hands-down every time, no exceptions. So if a game requires aiming, thumb-knobbies just don't cut it. That's why they have add in all that auto-aiming crap for console shooters, as well as slowing down AI reactions and retarding their aiming abilities as well.
Secondly - have you played a lot of the 360 ports? The 3 above are pretty good games.
I've played Bioshock and AC. Didn't finish either of them. They got very repetitive and boring.
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At least Games for Windows games actually *work*. Unlike, for example, Battlefield: 2142 and Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, two games I bought recently that did not, in fact, work.
First of all, if you bought Dark Messiah recently, you need serious help. The Battlefield series has always had issues, which is why I've never played it. How many console games require patches these days? Do you guess that that number is higher or lower than last year? For every example you point out of buggy PC game, I can point out one that works great, or a console game that is buggy as well.
Yes, the console games tend to get more scrutiny, but they also have the advantage of a single hardware spec
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Ubisoft wouldn't exist if not for Cliff Blezinski and Tim Sweeney.
And Tom Clancy! Don't forget about him. :-P
When will they learn? (Score:5, Insightful)
That CD copy protection doesn't even work. The game gets pirated before it's released!
These companies are just fucking stupid. SOMEONE IN YOUR SUPPLY CHAIN IS STEALING FROM YOU! Why punish us?
Where do games go after they get mastered? Keep a closer eye on that.
Dangerous. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that policy is a fine policy, assuming that the copy protection was at least risk-free -- that is, assuming that if you bought the game legitimately, if it didn't work, you could just upgrade with a patch in a month, and the protection is gone.
Well, it's not risk-free.
Some of these CD schemes, in particular, have actually installed drivers which screw up things like DVD burning. Some have installed rootkits. There's really no way for a gamer to know that it's completely gone -- and if there was a bug in it, there's no way to know that we could completely remove it.
Parent has a point, though:
The reason you should remove CD copy protection from your game is that it doesn't work -- at all, ever, the game's cracked before release, and people can make perfect copies.
The second reason is that CD copy protection can be so intrusive as to drive legitimate customers to piracy -- which means that it has to have a significant benefit to justify that risk. It doesn't.
So, if CD copy protection is such a clear net loss, what's the point? Why would you want to only shoot yourself in the foot for a month, instead of, say, not shooting yourself in the fucking foot?
Parent
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I guess I'm the oddball here but the thinking that I had was that they'd have to maintain some sort of CD copy protection. If they did that then they *might* be able to justify getting rid of the no return policy. The percentage of people who would buy a game, copy it, and then return it for a refund or an exchange is probably so high that they are afraid to do these things.
The reality is that there are plenty of tools out there that will enable you to copy most any disc on the market. Easily.
So I see both
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The percentage of people who would buy a game, copy it, and then return it for a refund or an exchange is probably so high that they are afraid to do these things.
RTFA. Bascially: Stardock measured an increase in sales when they added refunds, and not that many people bothered to return it.
I suppose there would have to be a point at which you start dealing with abuse, but keep in mind -- most people who want to pirate the game know about BitTorrent. The people who actually bought the game are, mostly, legitimate customers.
I'm thinking a compromise would be in order...
Well, I believe it does allow for the scheme Greenhouse [playgreenhouse.com] (Penny Arcade) uses -- interestingly, also the scheme Windows XP uses, which was so controv
But stardock never used CD copy protection! (Score:3, Interesting)
That CD copy protection doesn't even work. The game gets pirated before it's released!
That's exactly why stardock doesn't use this approach;)
Stardock's games don't require the CD in the drive, have a one-time serial number to enter, and, like steam, if you want to log into your account, you can download any game you've ever bought -- but unlike steam, you don't have to be online to play or even have the online component installed if you don't want. And you can just copy any CD they've ever released with t
My suggestion (Score:5, Insightful)
Ideally? Get rid of DRM. It NEVER benefits the consumer, and the pirate copies have it removed anyway.
If you HAVE to use DRM because the old farts who run these companies insist on it, have the game hosted on something like Steam or GameTap.
If you do decide to go the Steam route, don't incorporate further DRM on top of the Steam version of the game (I'm looking at you, BioShock).
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What happens when Steam or GameTap go out of business?
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Re:My suggestion (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, Valve has already announced their contingency plan: if they're on the way out, they'll release a final patch to steam that disables the phoning home.
Yeah, and companies that are going out of business are always able to see it ahead of time, wrap things up neatly and wind the business down gracefully. They're always able to implement their "going out of business scenario."
It never happens that things just spiral out of control and one day they find that their creditors have locked the doors.
Parent
Re:My suggestion (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd feel a lot better if that patch existed, somewhere in escrow, in case that happened.
But honestly, it's a compromise I can live with. Steam doesn't force me to keep track of a CD, doesn't fuck up my computer, and does let me re-download the game as often as I like, on as many computers as I like.
Parent
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If you do decide to go the Steam route
That's exactly the route Stardock is taking [impulsedriven.com].
Which is why I wont be buying any more Stardock games.
They pulled a nice bait-and-switch with Sins. If you want the latest patches, they make you install Impulse.
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Re:My suggestion (Score:4, Insightful)
"Lets face it, the reason the companies are employing DRM is because (most, not all) gamers fucked them over and forced their hand by just greedily pirating everything we could get out hands on."
When I was a kid in the 80s, pretty much everyone in my school who owned a computer pirated games, and all the fancy DRM scams they used were broken by ten-year-olds in their bedrooms; after trying more and more intrusive DRM scams, eventually the distributors gave up because it simply did not work, and games were released for years with no DRM at all.
DRM is 'sowed' by retarded control-freak publishers who have no clue about technology and don't care how much they screw their customers; piracy has little to do with it. Which is fortunate, because the ten-year-olds are still cracking DRM scams almost as soon as they're released.
Parent
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I'm not saying DRM is a successful method of preventing piracy, but instead that it is a typical knee jerk reaction of (as you quite accurately, if cynically called them) retarded control-freak publishers who are freaking out and losing revenue through piracy.
On the other hand, how do you go about convincing dumbass board members and investors (who often only care about the bottom line) that you're not going to do anything about piracy, and that it won't hurt the bottom line to do so?
I can understand how pi
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May I direct your attention to Tribes [wikipedia.org]? Tribes 1 was created by Dynamix (now known as Sierra) a medium/small development house which found themselves in exactly the situatio
Solution is simple : (Score:3, Insightful)
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"You mean the people who pay the bills? How's that suppose to work?"
Publishers don't pay the bills; game players do. Publishers may fund development, but at the end of the day the people who pay for it are the ones who buy the games.... the people who the publishers are screwing over by shipping buggy beta-quality games with intrusive DRM, to the point where at least some of us have simply stopped buying the games whose development they're funding.
Obviously many companies would struggle to raise funding wit
no (Score:2)
publishers are the enemy.
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Get some investors who have balls, then. Or find a better publisher.
The publisher ultimately doesn't pay the bills. They put money down initially, which they expect to make back when the gamers pay the bills.
Which means, ultimately, the least replaceable part of their job is essentially either a loan or an investment.
I don't think the games themselves really need much help, once they're made. In fact, if a game was made using this system -- a full-on, triple-A production (or whatever you call it) -- but wit
Whatever. (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
Try taking the box store to court for not providing basic fitness. Guess what? The business is willing to "deal with you".
2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
Definition of finished? Perhaps they want mathematically proven code? I'd rather have a continual ladder of bugfixes and more content.
3. Gamers shall have th
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And by PC they don't mean the standard definition of PC such as
A) Uses an x86 CPU
B) Is an IBM compatible computer that runs DOS
or even C) A computer used by 1 person at a time.
But rather it becomes A computer running Windows XP or higher with 512 MB of RAM, and a good graphics card.
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Try taking the box store to court for not providing basic fitness.
Isn't that in the shrink-wrap license, though? I know just about every piece of software I've ever used disclaims itself from fitness for a purpose.
Definition of finished?
Might be better to give an example of "not finished" -- I believe the Unreal Tournament 2003 Linux installer had a blatant bug where it would ask for the wrong disc.
So, maybe "finished" as in "at least one actual test by an actual person". Or "contains no game-breaking bugs" -- nothing sucks more than a game which autosaves yours in an unwinnable state. (Jak II
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---Isn't that in the shrink-wrap license, though? I know just about every piece of software I've ever used disclaims itself from fitness for a purpose.
I dont care what some stuffy license says. Try telling a judge that.
User: "Yer honor, I bought this game, and it wont even run right. I took it to Geek Squad and they said it put some spyware called Secure Rom on it. I want my money back, my time, and court fees."
Game Company: "Judge, our contract stipulates that our software is not guaranteed fitness"
Judge:
Lets see... (Score:5, Insightful)
A) Cross-platform games
B) Get rid of the insane DRM, if you want a CD serial key thats fine as they are easily cracked later in its lifetime, but don't activate it online (with the exception of say, a MMORPG)
C) Develop for a generation before, don't develop a game for quad-core CPUs and dual video cards, develop for a generation before the current generation. Optimize for multiple CPUs and video cards all you want, but I won't upgrade my graphics card/RAM just to play a game.
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Cross-platform games
Yes, please. Double-win for the gamer -- I can play it on Linux, and more platforms means more ways for it to break, so it should have fewer bugs even on its main platform by release. With the state of the industry now, just about any reduction in bugs is a win.
if you want a CD serial key thats fine as they are easily cracked later in its lifetime, but don't activate it online
I can live with activation online, as long as it's not constant. I'm going to be online when I install, since I need patches then, and since I'm probably downloading it anyway. I'm not going to be online every time I play.
Develop for a generation before,
No, no, a thousand times no.
Re:Lets see... (Score:4, Insightful)
Saying Starcraft is a counter example is silly. People *still* play it in droves,
Yes. People also play Doom, Pong, and Solitaire, in droves. What's your point?
and it still looks good.
Respectfully, no it doesn't. It looks no better than it did at the time.
the game may not get better looking with newer hardware, but if it looks good to start with, who cares?
Well, you're right -- it looks exactly as good as it did to start with.
I cite it as a counterexample, because you know what? No game can look worse now than when it started. But because Starcraft looks exactly the same, it also means that other games look better.
As for cross platform, Linux is still going to be last on the list for reasonable reasons.
Fair enough -- yet for most games which would bother to make a Mac port, I don't see Linux as a major hurdle. They already had to make it OpenGL to make it play well on the Mac -- that's most of the work right there. Unless they somehow made it stupidly dependent on Cocoa, Linux would barely be a recompile from that.
DirectX stomps OpenGL in current day form, and that buys you 90% of the cross-platform that is PC and XBox
It doesn't buy you the 360, not entirely. If it does, I count the PS3 and the Wii for OpenGL.
And you're not comparing apples to apples. I don't think Direct3D is any better than OpenGL. DirectX is better, because it does more than just graphics -- so the fair comparison would be DirectX vs SDL.
And given how well UT2004 does, I think a good game engine should be able to switch between the two, without too much trouble.
Visual Studio and DirectX arn't quite the utter pieces of shit that the OS is,
True enough. But having used both Visual Studio and Eclipse, I'm not sure I would want Visual Studio back.
I don't see Windows being threatened anytime soon in the gaming market.
True. But it doesn't make a Linux/BSD port any less cool. (That's most of the reason I impulse-bought the Penny Arcade game.)
And remember Doom 3? Pushed GL ahead by at least a year from where it was, I imagine. Most developers insist on DirectX, true, but it only takes one big game to make the manufacturers start to get their shit together.
Lastly:
if you wanna program a generation into the future, OpenGL is trailing developer expectations while MS has been much more consistent with regards to their announcements of whats coming up.
If you wanna program a generation into the future, it doesn't matter -- you need both, and more. You need your engine to be so rock solid and agile that if Intel suddenly makes a cheap 500-core card that speaks x86, you'll be able to render on it before GL or DirectX.
Granted, that's a bit aggressive, but I know how poorly game engines have done, traditionally -- game development in particular tends to lag years behind the rest of the world, mostly because of performance hacks to squeeze out another couple frames per second.
I'm not entirely sure if the modern GL ports of Doom even use less CPU than the purely-software renderer Doom came with. But that kind of shows the endgame of an overly-optimized engine -- how many modern features could we actually add to the original Doom? Ramps, even? We have enough CPU now to run probably hundreds of instances of Doom on a single machine, so the optimizations no longer matter, but the lack of features and portability does -- I imagine much of the "porting" is taking old assembly routines and rewriting them in C.
Blech. I'm rambling, and it's 4 AM. Sorry to be so abrupt... Let me know what you think.
Parent
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I cite it as a counterexample, because you know what? No game can look worse now than when it started.
Not true, actually. See Final Fantasy VIII PC port on Nvidia GPUs. Apparently at released, it used an "undocumented feature" of the GPUs which was fixed in later versions of the drivers, including the current set for current cards (that the old drivers do not support and cannot be used for).
Completely unplayable now. :(
Thank god for brad wardell... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's about time business's (and customers) re-established good will over mindless abuse of one another.
Eat your own dogfood, Brad. (Score:3, Interesting)
If anyone wander's on over to Stardock's website, you will find they have a return policy, but it's got all kinds of ugly exceptions.
I think they should really consider having the same policies as he is demanding of the gaming industry.
Pot.. Kettle.. Black..
Honestly, I really do not like to say it, but I am thinking if any anti-DRM movement sprung up effective enough to get traction, companies would likely consider console-only release, rather than face the "risk" associated with releasing for a PC-- no matter the real costs vs unreasonable fear.. Regardless of who says they are "interested" in front of the press.
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Where are you getting that from?
We've offered to buy back *retail* copies of Political Machine 2008 if it didn't run on someone's machine, since it was released early this summer.
Got an issue with a direct-download game that's keeping you from playing it and support can't get you fixed up? Full refund. Yes, that's right, a refund on a download, and you've got three months to figure out if you need one. That part's not a new policy at all.
That there is right #1, already in action well before the gamer's bill
Link, please? (Score:3, Informative)
The policy in question [stardock.com]:
Please note that most Stardock programs have demo versions available for preview prior to buying... full refunds will not be issued for functional software that doesnâ(TM)t live up to your expectations.
Makes sense, doesn't it? And it fits that bill of rights -- that's specifically about games that don't work with your computer.
We do not give refunds on beta software.
Kind of a "duh" moment there.
We do not give full or partial refunds for any subscription renewals.
Might help if they allowed it for a single renewal, but consider the asshat who subscribes for a year, then it stops working, or he wants to stop playing -- so he tries to get his entire year's subscription payments back.
If you are not willing to work with technical support on any problems you are having, or request a refund even if you are not having problems using the software, we will issue a partial refund only.
Also makes sense, given that the refund is for actual problems, not just because you didn't like it. You'll find
hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with PC gaming is that a lot of the smaller companies were driven out of business, while the bigger companies obsessively followed each other. How many WW2 FPSes have we had to endure over the past decade? How many futuristic and ancient world RTSes? At first that works. If someone loved starcraft, then there's a good chance they'll buy the next two clones, but after a while it just gets tedious.
I mean, look at CRPGs; the neverending AD&D gold box RPGs killed the CRPG market until Baldur's Gate. Doom was a great game, but we had to spend the next several years getting forcefed Doom clones (half of them produced by Id themselves). Starcraft cloned countless futuristic FPSes, and Starcraft itself originally copied off of Dune (via Warcraft maybe). I lost track of all the Age of Empire (itself not an especially original game) clones.
How about some local multiplayer games? (Score:2)
What's the difference in gaming between consoles and PCs for multi-player games?
For the PC, one person per computer. Want to play with another person, they need another computer. The Wii has 1/2 the power of the typical home computer yet you can have multiplayer games with the people in the same room. PC gaming is individuals sitting at individual computers, looking at tiny monitors (not your 60" TV) Multiplayer on the PC shouldn't be two people sharing the same keyboard.
Consoles while inflexible serve a
Oh, for the good old days . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Back in the '80s when things were fresh and new, I remember the eagerness with which I went to Egghead/Babbage's to look at the computer games.
There was so much variety in the games. People were trying all sorts of different things. These games were not hundred-megabyte heavyweight games, they were much lighter--but they were more interesting.
Now everything is so similar. The gaming mags freak out over frame rate and animation quality. I could care less. I value freshness and cleverness much more.
My wife plays, and loves, the popcap kind of games on the internet. They are nothing special at all, but she likes them because they are novel and fun.
I think I had more fun playing the original ASCII empire game and CIV II than I get playing later, overwrought, Sid Meier games (and he designs among the best).
The massive multiplayer games could be tons of fun, but there's no way I'm putting down a subscription to play.
All the damn game publishers are trying to hit home runs all the time, like the movie industry. That sucks. I'd rather see a lot more variety out there, like in the '80s.
Anyway--that's my gripe.
DRM not *that* big a deal (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe I know a very skewed demographic but I'd suggest that the % of gamers who care about such things as DRM is actually quite small.
They probably call it "copy protection"... (Score:3, Insightful)
What "DRM" in games means is what we used to call "copy protection". And players do care about it, when they get a scratched CD, or steam screws up, or anything else that results from them not being able to make a backup of their games whacks them upside the head.
They're just used to it. It's "that sucks, but what can you do about it".
And for game companies, the attitude is generally "it sucks, but what can you do about it" too.
I've been whacked upside the head by copy protection from both sides. As a playe