Casinos Warn iPhone Card-Counting App is Illegal 462
An anonymous reader writes "Gaming commissions in Nevada are informing casinos that a new card counting program has made its way to the Apple iPhone, called Hi Lo. This program can be used in the Stealth Mode. When the program is used in the Stealth Mode the screen of the phone will remain shut off, and as long as the user knows where the keys are located the program can be run effortlessly without detection. Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says 'Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075.'"
Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong:
The Nevada laws are friendly to the casinos, as they make Nevada a LOT of money.
Re:From TFA (Score:2, Informative)
From our almighty master Google:
NRS 465.075
Use of device for calculating probabilities. It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the Commission.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:2, Informative)
The question isn't really whether the casinos need sympathy.
The question is, realistically what would happen if casinos actually allowed the odds of any game to be tilted in the players' favor?
Answer: People would flock to that game, the casinos would lose money, and there would be no more casinos. Some people think that would be a good thing; are you surprised that the casino operators are not among them?
Of course, counting cards in your head is legal. For this reason, casinos will always have to do their own work to detect card-counters and enforce their own rules against them (by throwing them out and banning them from returning). They have a perfectly good way to detect card counters -- they have their own people counting the cards and watching betting patterns. So in my view the law against card-counting devices is not strictly necessary, though perhaps it encourages more people to play nice (as it puts actual legal consequences on those who can't keep track in their heads).
Of course, I see a lot of games played from a never-ending shoe; good luck counting in that environment.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
Well, the reason is speed, accuracy and memory. Mechanical devices used for card counting have been banned for quite a while, this is more of a notification that the iPhones have an app to do it.
When people are doing it in their head, there are strategies in place to cope with that. Usually the dealer will have things that he's allowed to do and in the worst case the pit boss will come over and talk up the player.
I'm not sure that the iPhone is specifically a problem, but it is within the category of cheating devices when used for card counting.
But it is also worth while pointing out that Black Jack isn't a game that any sane casino would offer if they weren't able to make card counting difficult. It's just not profitable, mainly they offer it as a sort of favor to the clients.
Re:From TFA (Score:4, Informative)
Both. According to the gaming laws in Nevada:
According to what you C&P'd, you can't read. It's legal to use it for your own game at your house, so it's legal to own. It's not legal to own it with the intent to use it to actually make money, and it's not legal to use it, either.
It is NOT illegal to own the software. It IS illegal to own the software if you intend to use it to defraud a casino.
The relevant standard in the US courts is "substantial non-infringing use".
computer shadowing detects card counting (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipeadia mentions computer programs that track cards (by camera recognition) and bets (RFIDs in chips). The computer computes several of the popular counting schemes and compares that against actual play. Positive correlation with actual betting is suspicion of counting and grounds for expulsion.
Re:Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:3, Informative)
You Watch Too Much TV (Score:5, Informative)
I was busted for card counting just 10 days ago in Vegas. The pit boss politely leaned over and said, "Sir, we are going to have to ask you to stop playing blackjack."
I said, "ok", cashed in my chips and that was that. I got to keep the $200 I won and didn't even get escorted off the premises.
Blacklist (Score:3, Informative)
In extreme cases, they can add you to a blacklist that other casinos subscribe to. Enforcement of the blacklist starts getting into really impressive, and scary, Big-Brother stuff that governments could only dream of - automatic face recognition and tracking, cross-checking faces against the black list, logging time spent at such-and-such location (i.e., table), who happens to be around the person at the same time (to sniff out collaborative counting groups). Casinos can do it because they have lots of money and incentive to do so, plus they are working this stuff in a smaller environment that they design and control to the hilt.
Re:Hi Lo? (Score:4, Informative)
If they'd have called it Rain Man, they're highly likely to incur the wrath of the MPAA for infringing the trademark of MGM/UA.
There. Fixed that for you.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:2, Informative)
A casino will notice you winning no matter how you do it. Since you are on private property, they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave, you are trespassing.
Actually, in Nevada it's a Felony. They don't ask you to leave, they ask you to leave in custody of the nice police officer.
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:3, Informative)
The odds for Blackjack are very low if the player uses the basic strategy. That's an important distinction since most people don't bother to take the time to memorize basic strategy and don't want to feel foolish by either asking the dealer on hands they don't know or using one of the cards you can get in the gift shop. The vast majority of blackjack players make stupid mistakes and increase the house edge substantially. Even card counting can get players into more trouble than it's worth. If a counter makes more than 1 or 2 mistakes an hour and modify their play according to what they believe is the count, they can end up with lower odds than simply playing basic strategy. Before they inform a player that they're no longer welcome to play blackjack, the casinos will make sure that the card counter is actually skilled enough to have an edge over the house.
Blackjack has, as evidenced by your post, gotten the reputation for being the best odds you can get in Vegas, at least for the table games when you discount the "don't come" bet at the craps table. And that's true from a purely mathematical perspective. But it gets a lot more profitable for them when the player makes mistakes. And since most people in Vegas are there to have fun rather than make money, most people make mistakes. And even people that don't make mistakes are still profitable for the casinos. Card counting changes all that, but only if you're allowed to alter you play accordingly. But those kinds of changes in play make it easy to spot people counting, so it's pretty difficult to be able to play a prolonged amount of play time where you've got an advantage over the house, which is something you'd need to make money when your advantage is only 1-2%.
In general, card counting gets overrated as a way to beat the house. What people forget about the MIT team is that they gave back most of their profits when they had a rough patch. The book and movie rights likely made them far more money than their actual card counting did. And that was before the Casinos got clued in to the team concept and essentially closed that loophole. Basically, card counting is more trouble than it's worth. It's not as glamorous as the movies or books make it out to be and you still have swings where you lose despite having the odds in your favor (the same holds true for the casinos...the odds are in their favor yet many players win in the short-term.) But if you take the time to learn basic strategy, make sure you can stick to it when you're drunk and learn how to work the waitresses to double up on the free drinks (tip well and order another drink each time she brings you your drink), Blackjack can be one of the cheapest ways in Vegas to get drunk.
If you want to make money, however, head to the sports book and bet against the LA teams. Vegas gets so much traffic from LA that the lines on games with LA teams get skewed in favor of the opponent.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
WRONG. If another player is playing poorly, he is affecting how the cards come out of the deck. For instance, if another player "hits" on a 20, and takes the Jack that would have (should have) accompanied your Ace, he has most definitely played in a way that affect your odds of winning.
In fact, most blackjack players are expecting you to play the "basic strategy" and will get miffed if you don't.
Before saying in all caps that someone is wrong, you should know what you are talking about. It works out to be the same. In your example, he could have easily have hit another card which allowed you to get your Jack on your turn.
Looking at it another way, the chances of the Jack being at the top of the deck vs. the card underneath it is exactly the same.
I get really annoyed at people who blame others at the table for their losses, saying they shouldn't have hit yadayada. It even happens when you follow basic strategy, they complain when you hit on 16. They only remember the situations where that causes them to lose the hand when they shouldn't have vs. when it made them win the hand.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:3, Informative)
http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/articles/8863.html [casinocitytimes.com]
Not the greatest source, but it explains how this is a myth. Yes, a poor player can affect your odds on one hand, but it works both ways. Most blackjack players get miffed, not because you are affecting their hand, but because you are being an idiot.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:3, Informative)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
Thank you for explaining to this poor guy how basic odds work, I am not sure I could have responded with the same tact.. I also get quite annoyed at this basic misunderstanding of how probability works. An unknown card is an unknown card - by definition of a randomly shuffled deck, each unknown card has an equal chance of being at every position in the deck. In fact the only argument that you could logically make is that a poor player sitting next to you (someone who hits on cards they should stay on) will actually HELP you, because you will see more cards per hand and can therefore COUNT more cards per hand and increase the likelihood that you will encounter favorable deck conditions before you run out of cards. (although at the same time, you might want the loose player to stop taking so many cards once the deck does shift in your favor).
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.
1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.
REF: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html [state.nv.us]
I live about 90 minutes from Las Vegas and I can tell you the state of Nevada is serious as a heart attack about cheating. There are repeat offenders serving LIFE without parole for creating and distributing cheating devices and schemes.
Counting cards in your head is not illegal, but if you do master the art of counting cards without being detected, you can be refused entry at the whim of the casino, just because you are too good at the game... They can walk up and ask you to leave and never return and you must do so. They can also put you face, vital statistics, and biometrics (for facial recognition) in a database shared with other casinos.
Enjoy your stay
Re:You Watch Too Much TV (Score:3, Informative)
It would be a poorly managed casino that didn't ask you to leave long before your card-counting winnings were $200,000.
Cheers.
Duh..... (Score:3, Informative)
Obviously, card-counting with a device, mechanical, electronic, or even a pencil and paper, is flagrantly illegal. Everybody knows this.
However, card-counting in your head is not.
*BUT* they can kick you out if they suspect you are counting cards in your head, or will use any number of methods to screw up your mental counting, such as distraction (hecklers, waitresses with great tits, etc. They use the same methods for dice controllers too.).
Keep in mind, if someone says "This table is too hot for you", then leave. Immediately.
Card Counters caught cheating with a device are handed over to the police (if they are lucky), your mugshot is taken by casino personnel, and you are placed into a Black Book database, and effectively banned from every casino with access to the database.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
The other 100,000+ times they were cheating, but not caught I don't believe for a second those machines and wheels are not wired for independent control.
Believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. I understand how people can think that slots are rigged, the internals of the machine are hidden and complex. But a game like blackjack takes place in full view of the gambler. In roulette, a "fixed" wheel would be spotted relatively quickly by the gamblers. Have you ever seen "system" players at roulette recording the result of every spin? They would see and exploit any irregularity or pattern. If you think craps is being played with loaded dice, bet on the Don't Pass line.
They don't have to cheat. They have the odds on their side. All cheating would do is raise the risk to the casino. It would only take one mistake by any one of the dozens of employees involved in the scam to unravel the entire scheme.
And of course if you do start winning, then they immediately assume you are a cheat and kick you out. Even if you were doing nothing wrong.
That is simply untrue. Casinos want some winners. They want people to win tens of thousands of dollars; because, at the same time, there are more gamblers watching the winner, betting more, and losing. A winning gambler is a casino's best advertising.
Each employee you come into contact with at a casino wants you to win, from the cocktail waitress, to the dealer, to the guy working in the cage. Winners tip. Winners tip well. I've payed out massive amounts of money to winners, and did it with a smile on my face every time.
I have never once seen anyone thrown out of a casino for winning. I have never been thrown out of a casino for winning, and I have had some large wins (I'm not a great gambler, but if you play a lot, you'll win sometimes). Most people thrown out of casinos are drunk and belligerent.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:3, Informative)
There is one cheat that is more-or-less undetectable, and that is for the house to maintain its own count as the game is played. This should be pretty easy since there are multiple cameras on every table. When the deck is overly favorable to the player they can simply force a reshuffle/change of decks.
This is a feasible way for the casino to assure they always have the edge. But, unless there is some reason to think there is a counter at the table, they lose more money from pausing the play. Casino blackjack's profitability is all about the number of hands played per hour. Start reshuffling every time the count gets high, and you'll reduce the hands per hour, which means less profit per hour. And, you'll start pissing off the gamblers.
It's not that what you're proposing won't work. It's just that it wouldn't be profitable for the casino.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
You're forgetting one very important place in a casino where it is possible to consistently win if you're good - the poker tables.
There you aren't playing against the house. You're playing against other players, and the house doesn't care how much you win because they get a cut of every hand. For a casino, poker is essentially free money with no real risk. For a player, it's a game with much better odds than ones you play against the house if you know what you're doing.
Just be sure to go during the day when the resident sharks are asleep (they only tend to come out at night). There's still plenty of action, and a much better chance of leaving with more money than you walked in with.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Informative)
To be fair, it is possible for one player's decisions to affect another's returns. If a player tended to hit more often with a good count, then he'd make periods of positive count shorter for the other players, which would hurt their expected return. Of course, that wouldn't be bad play; in fact, in some marginal cases it makes sense to hit on a high count when basic strategy says to fold, so it could be unusually good play.
That said, unless a player is specifically changing his betting strategy based on count, you're completely right that his effect on other players' expected returns should average out to nothing.
Re:Why illegal? (Score:3, Informative)
It actually wasn't illegal until 1985.
Previously they ahd the right to refuse you service.
Making it illegal probably came about becasue people who came to power in the industry don't actually understand the practicality of the industry. See RIAA.
You can count in your head, the law specifically talks about devices.
The casino does have the right to refuse service...however there not likely to care on any small wager.