Casinos Warn iPhone Card-Counting App is Illegal 462
An anonymous reader writes "Gaming commissions in Nevada are informing casinos that a new card counting program has made its way to the Apple iPhone, called Hi Lo. This program can be used in the Stealth Mode. When the program is used in the Stealth Mode the screen of the phone will remain shut off, and as long as the user knows where the keys are located the program can be run effortlessly without detection. Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says 'Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075.'"
How to use in stealth mode? (Score:3, Interesting)
If the screen is off its all well and good to input card appearances with it hidden in your pocket, but how do you get its current odds output? Vibration or something like that?
Would this have widespread use? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, if you want to play blackjack...you avoid these tables like the plague!!
I've not been out there in a couple years or so...but, are you saying ALL the major casinos use the continuous shufflers only? I know they tried those at the Harrah's down here in NOLA, and they did not go over well. Most blackjack players..can't / don't count cards...but, using that machine took away the illusion they had that they could win.
I thought the continuous shufflers pretty much went away due to players bad responses to them...?
Re:Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:5, Interesting)
They're not gonna backroom you like they did in the old days....they don't need to. They can just simply refuse your play, and if a problem, ban you from that casino, where if you do reenter, you are legally trespassing and they let the law deal with you.
There are ways to count, even as a single person with no team. There are plays that you 'can' make, which are usually very stupid, but, at times can be made and not really lessen your edge you get by counting properly. I was reading one awhile back that where in a strategy, you actually did at times split 10's....a generally stupid move, but, if done at certain times, sparingly, it would not mess with your edge badly, yet it would definitely throw off the casino watching you as a 'serious' counter. I'm sorry I don't have the book around to cite the source, but, it is out there.
Team play is definitely the best way to go, but, most casinos know that MOST people who think they can count cards...will mess up. So, unless you are making huge swings in bets with VERY high denominations of checks...you're likely not going to be harassed. They only really start looking at you if you start taking serious money from them.
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are several shufflers around - one is a "continuous shuffler" - basically a circular rake (or one on a belt) that can take cards that moves back and forth randomly. Dealer inserts cards at the top, and they get inserted into the rake one by one, and pulls cards from the bottom, whatever happens to be there. Another kind simply takes cards and shuffles them periodically.
But the usual trick is to simply shuffle after every round - the tables only have one deck in play (and a pre-shuffled deck standing ready to keep play fast). When the round ends, that old deck is tossed into the shuffler, and the new deck dealt. This completely screws up counting. Smaller casinos simply use less decks - turns out more decks in the shoe make card counting more successful.
Also, while card counting itself isn't illegal, using an aid is (mechanical, electronic, etc). But it's easy to spot card counters (the people monitoring the eyes in the sky can count cards too). Heck, I'm surprised they haven't equipped the tables with RFID readers and use cards with RFID in them so a computer at the table can maintain the count and watch the bets and point out potential card counters.
And Blackjack is one of the worst games for a casino - the odds are very low. They only carry it because it's popular. Someone doing basic strategy already has cut down the house advantage to less than half a percent - a very poor return. Card counting tips that into the player's favor.
Finally - do casinos allow cellphones to be used at tables? At best, this warning is just a heads up to people who'll use the application that aids to card counting is illegal, but I suppose if one was trying to learn, they could use it at home or in small groups.
The problem of communicating the count has remained though - but since card counting is a probability play anyways, communicating the rough hotness and coldness of the deck is sufficient.
In short, the iPhone app is nothing new - many people have done this in the past, often with more elaborate contraptions suitable for the lower level of technology in the day...
Illegal to actually use it in the casino (Score:3, Interesting)
It's illegal to actually use it within the casinos. You can take your cell phone, even an iphone, into the casino. However, they have cameras with tape everywhere. If they catch you looking at your phone repeatedly, they will probably have probably cause to search your person. They can then try to get into your phone look to see if you have the app, and if you do they'll probably charge you right there. I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on a pin cracking software package so they don't have to get your permission. This of course has it's own legal issues, but casinos will err on the side of profits, and they don't care if the court case can't go thru, at least you are out of their casino. Let the courts worry about little things like civil rights. Winning a court case that your rights have been violated is hard against a casino whether or not you did cheat.
Casinos have the right to eject you and ban you from a casino for any reason. I've never experienced this because I don't gamble, but I wouldn't be surprised if they ask you to remove bluetooth headsets before sitting down at a table. If you refuse, bye bye, they don't have to "serve" you, like any private establishment.
However, just for the record, casinos don't beat you up for committing a crime or counting cards (unlike how the movie 21 portrayed it, that was a complete lie), no they don't make you sleep with the fishes any more, and you can only be charged with a crime if that crime is clearly stated in law. Counting in your head is not illegal. Counting using some kind of electronic device, or communicating with someone outside of the table using an electronic device to help you gamble are both illegal.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
When people are doing it in their head, there are strategies in place to cope with that. Usually the dealer will have things that he's allowed to do and in the worst case the pit boss will come over and talk up the player.
Yeah, they will do all sorts of things to make you distracted. I stayed at the Flamingo, and some of the $15 black jack tables had pole dancers in the middle of the tables! I stayed away until after they were done for the night, and when the free drinks come around I got myself a bottle of water.
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:5, Interesting)
Continuous shufflers aren't as reliable about screwing things up as one might imagine. The basic problem is that you aren't guaranteed to hit those dead spots in the decks where most of the cards suck.
This is actually fairly important because it means that with the constraints on the dealer, it means that there's a relatively consistent number of 10 point cards left in the deck. And with the dealer being required to take a hit at any total less than 16 and depending upon the casino will uniformly take a hit or not on 17s.
And as such it changes the dynamics of what you take a hit on, knowing that the dealer has a card between 2 and 6 is more consistent than it is on a table where the decks aren't being shuffled as often.
Which is a long way of saying that while it does limit the traditional card counting, it does open up other conditions in a way which opens up other options.
Re:The new mob ... same as the old mob (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I just don't see how it would work. (Score:5, Interesting)
iPhone has an accelerometer, I use a step counting app all the time, imagine the step counting app keeping track, an up kick with your foot is +1, a down kick is -1 and when the app senses the time is right to bet, it vibrates
and fuck the casinos, they can all burn
Plagiarism (Score:5, Interesting)
Last paragraph:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.[...]
Wikipedia article on Card Counting: [wikipedia.org]
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.'
C'mon TechFragments. If you copy a Wikipedia article, which you shouldn't be doing anyway, you need to give a link back to the article you copied from and give proper attribution to its authors.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:3, Interesting)
Come up with an app. that hooks up to a camera in your eyeglasses, does pattern recognition on the cards and does a perfect computer count and notifies you via vibration or HUD display in your glasses. Then you got something! Of course you still have to be careful. A casino will notice you winning no matter how you do it. Since you are on private property, they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave, you are trespassing.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
Why use the iPhone....?
Card counting on your own, isn't that hard. Sure, it takes a bit of practice, but, it isn't rocket science.
No, standard Hi/Lo counting is pretty easy. Most people can even keep a separate Ace count too. All it takes is practice.
But the power of computer-aided counting is that it can keep track of each card's specific value. Instead of keeping track of only the relative number of high cards played, a computer can keep track of the number of 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, etc. A computer can process and use every piece of information known about the remaining cards, not just the ratio of high cards to low. It can make the perfect playing and betting decisions every time.
Someone who is using a computer to count cards, therefore has a greater theoretical edge against the house. Or, he can get the same edge as a traditional counter, without having to vary his bets as much. That's the real power of computer-aided counting: less detectability. (Assuming, of course, he's not fiddling with his iPhone on the table the whole time.)
Odd (Score:4, Interesting)
I looked at the pole dancers and boozed up, loosing maybe $20.
Obviously you are smarter then I am.
Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, counting cards is not illegal in any shape or form.
Counting cards WITHOUT THE ASSISTANCE OF DEVICES is legal. If you can do it in your head, signal to collaborating people what the conditions are, etc. you cannot be charged, but if you are discovered counting cards you can be escorted off the property, as is the right of the private establishment.
However, if you use ANY sort of device, be it mechanical or electronic--even so much as a pad of post-it notes and a pen, you are now not only going to be escorted off the property, you are actually breaking the law and are likely to be arrested.
sooo...you are actually quite wrong when you say counting cards IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM is legal, because it clearly is not--only UNASSISTED counting of cards is legal.
Incidentally, the rule also applies to any gambling activity on the casino, not just card games. Some video slot machines have been known to have a poor pseudo-random algorithm and there have been a couple of cases I know of where mathematically inclined people have noticed this and profited from it. In one case, the casino could not press charges because the person in question actually sat and watched the machine himself for many hours. In another case, a concealed photographic device was used to do the observing and that person was charged and convicted.
Re:Illegal to actually use it in the casino (Score:2, Interesting)
re:"Casinos have the right to eject you and ban you from a casino for any reason."
NEVADA casinos. Not in New Jersey. Rather famous court case about it actually - but they don't mention that in movies about counters in Vegas. Makes it seem rebellious. It's about as rebellious as crossing the street at the corner crosswalk in Atlantic city. You cannot be barred for using your head counting cards period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting#Legal_status_of_card_counting [wikipedia.org]
Re:I just don't see how it would work. (Score:2, Interesting)
You don't need an iPhone for what you described, people have been cheating using a step counter for years and even the best got caught from time to time. Pitbosses will have zero difficulty picking up a bunch of amateurs trying this. The only thing this does is reduce the barrier to entry for people without hardware experience.
Re:Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:3, Interesting)
I was reading one awhile back that where in a strategy, you actually did at times split 10's....a generally stupid move, but, if done at certain times, sparingly, it would not mess with your edge badly, yet it would definitely throw off the casino watching you as a 'serious' counter. I'm sorry I don't have the book around to cite the source, but, it is out there.
You are probably thinking about Blackjack for Blood [amazon.com] by Bryce Carlson. It's a really good read and a good introduction to a level II counting system.
The rest of this post isn't directed toward you cayenne8, but seemed like a good of a place as any to put it.
At the end of the day, card counting wasn't very profitable for the level of effort it takes. While playing, a good card counter needs to do the following things:
The last item is actually the hardest on the list. Vary your bet spread more than 4 to 1? You're a possible counter. Make an advanced play (split 9s against a dealer 9 with a high plus card deck)? You're a possible counter. Look focused? You're a possible counter. Have an average bet of over $100/hand? You're a possible counter. The list goes on.
Now assume you've mastered the above and can count perfectly. Lets look at the money involved. To ensure that you have a 99.5% chance of not being wiped out, you are going to need a stake of approximately 120 times your average bet (details are hazy, but that's about right). Let's say you are going for an average bet of $50/hand. You will need a $6000 stake. Using the number of $50/hand, let's see how much you can expect to win per hour. Let's take a really high number for hands per hour, 100. In my experience, you would have to be playing three or four hands at a time to achieve this, but lets go with it. Bryce says that the best counters in the world have a 1.6% advantage over the house. Using the numbers so far we have $50/hand * 100 hands/hour * 1.6% advantage which leads to a whopping $80/hour take for perfect play that still carries a 0.5% risk of losing your entire $6000 stake.
On top of the risk/reward issues outlined above, card counting made blackjack boring for me. Instead of being fun, it was a job, and a job that required a lot of outside work as well. Keeping your skills up to date with a level II system takes daily practice. If you are going to try to push the limits on bet spreads or average bets, you have to manage where you play and how long you play for with excruciating detail. It just wasn't worth it. Now I play roulette when I want to gamble. There's nothing you can do from preventing the house from taking its cut. Just throw some chips down and hope you end up a winner.
The whole idea of poker is statistics. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:2, Interesting)
Heck, I'm surprised they haven't equipped the tables with RFID readers and use cards with RFID in them so a computer at the table can maintain the count and watch the bets and point out potential card counters.
Some Casinos Do. L'Auberge du Lac in Lake Charles does. I was there 2 years ago playing BlackJack so when I asked to be rated for my level of play, she went to the computer attached to the table and pulled up my stats. She was able to tell my average bit, how many hands I played an hour, etc. That being said, I know that computer must also signal card counting betting patterns. [Note to anyone that plays there: The 'button' the dealer hits before dealing out the cards tells the computer a round has started to collect the wager -> player position for the round.
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Blacklist (Score:2, Interesting)
My friend was recently banned from all MGM Mirage casinos. It was a pretty simple/impressive/scary ordeal. The manager of the casino said something into his walkie talkie, and then told my friend "Look at that camera" and pointed to one of the many cameras around. That was it.
No charges, but he is not welcome in any MGM Mirage casinos, any more.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:3, Interesting)
A casino will notice you winning no matter how you do it. Since you are on private property, they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave, you are trespassing.
Have you ever even entered a casino? They LOVE when you win. The more you win, the more comps they shower you with. Having a winner at a table entices all the suckers around them to play and lose. It's the best advertising there is!
/.) because it requires wild (and obvious) swings in betting.
Card counting has become almost impossible (despite the liars here who claim to do it -- as though wealthy card cheats spend their free time on
Add to that 10+ deck shuffles (every dozen or so hands) and a ban on entering a game mid-shuffle, and it's a loser strategy overall, more likely to entice the retarded geek than a real hustler.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
Also funny how no one who works in a casino has ever heard of such a hand stamp.
Also funny how the casinos use this super-secret ink that takes a whole week to wash off. And don't forget the needless details (common in every urban legend) such as "the orange pumice stuff".
When your friend got to his car, was there a hook hanging from the door handle?
Re:Blacklist (Score:3, Interesting)
Hah, no, casinos love card counters. They even sell how-to books in the gift shop.
They don't want everyone to be a successful card counter of course, but they're perfectly happy to let you think you've got the chops to do it successfully. And to do that, they have to let a few successful ones slip through the cracks for a while.
1983 - Computer beats Casino Roulette (Score:3, Interesting)
In the early 1980's, a group of Santa Cruz physics grad students built a set of computers into their cowboy boots. These timed the spinning of roulette wheels and applied Newtonian physics.
Thomas Bass wrote this up in the 1985 book, The Eudaemonic Pie, and caused the Nevada Gaming Commission to ban the use of these devices.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eudaemonic_Pie [wikipedia.org]
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:3, Interesting)
That'll only bring attention to the casino. Even if they have good lawyers, spending money fighting a lawsuit isn't as lucritive as spending money on more slot machines. It's much easier to send over a busty waitress with a free drink (distracting you enough to loose the count). Or do nothing. It's likely the big winner is attracting a lot of losers, and the casino will win out in the end.
So I trust that they are, to a point, a clean cut business, because it's in their best interest to be so.