Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
PC Games (Games) Entertainment Games

Duke Nukem Forever Gameplay Footage Leaked 189

Posted by Soulskill
from the come-get-none dept.
Tjeerd writes, "It seems that while 3D Realms is dead, some new footage has been leaked of Duke Nukem Forever." 3D Realms posted a brief good-bye to their website, and two of the developers have hosted screenshots and concept art from DNF on their personal blogs. Also, for those who haven't seen it yet, there's an entertaining list of things that have happened during DNF's development cycle.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Duke Nukem Forever Gameplay Footage Leaked

Comments Filter:
  • by SuperCharlie (1068072) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:20PM (#27901165)
    Sell the property to someone who will actually create something..
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:29PM (#27901237)

      They should sell it to EA. That way they can release the game *every* year.

      • by SuperCharlie (1068072) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @10:10PM (#27901503)
        Although they have focused on the dark and creepy, I bet ID could brainstorm their way into doing Duke justice. It just feels like one of the old-school developers should do this and put some closure on this mess for us old-timers.
        • dark and creepy? Maybe dark but I don't really get creepy.

          • by atraintocry (1183485) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @10:47PM (#27901737)

            The first Quake was pretty creepy, I think. Much more atmospheric than Doom. In any case, I'm sure id would rather work on their own properties. In the long run it makes more business sense. Also, really the only thing novel about Duke is the humor. That goes for all of the Duke Nukem games. I think I'd be more interested in seeing a new Duke platformer for WiiWare than I would a new Duke FPS.

            • OOPS lol

              I meant to say Quake single player was generally stale, while Duke nukem and quake were good :)

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by Anonymous Coward

              Also, really the only thing novel about Duke is the humor

              Another thing that made duke nukem 3D so awesome, and that you seemed to have forgotten
              was its level of interactivity that even today is still not very commong eg:
              you could play pool, tip hookers, open closets, take a piss, watch camera's, ...
              it also had a few very unique weapons and items, that were never done before iirc in an fps game (freezer, schrinker, jet pack, scuba gear, holoduke, ...)

              another thing that made it also excel was that

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by lymond01 (314120)

              Also, really the only thing novel about Duke is the humor.

              That may be (though some of the weapons looked pretty cool and climbing on the larger bosses was neat, though not original). But humor can go a loooong way to making a run-of-the-mill game worth playing. There was a mediocre game called "Blood" back in the 90s -- kind of dark, but during multiplayer your character would shout random things -- like when you use overuse the flamethrower on one target he'd shout something like, "Burn! Burn!" and give

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by ucblockhead (63650)

              Not true. The other novel thing about Duke was the interactivity of the environment. I remember things like jumping up on the pool table, hearing a "clack-clack" and noticing that all the balls had moved. I remember discovering that I could shoot out the musak-spewing speakers in the supermarket.

              It also had novel weapons, like the shrink-ray, and items, like the "holo-duke" or the jet-pack. Plus, at a time when Doom gave you similar looking level after similar looking level, Duke 3d actually had levels

        • by Moraelin (679338) on Monday May 11, 2009 @04:56AM (#27903595) Journal

          I can just see what ID could do with it.

          "Duke Nukem 4": Duke is out to kick ass and chew bubblegum, but he's not just out of bubblegum, he also can't use his boot and a flashlight at the same time. The refreshing twist that will inject new life into the series.

          And the exciting expansion pack: "Duke Nukem 4 Dark Edition". He's not just out of bubblegum, he's also out of batteries for that flashlight.

          "Duke Nukem 5: Attack Of The Nazi Demon Babes from Mars" ID hopes to also attract fans of their Wolfenstein and Doom/Quake franchises with this twist. Plus, nobody around the office had any ideas that don't involve nazis or demons. Plus, at least it will still have the demons left in for the German or French markets, after the nazi symbols and references have to be removed. (See, Return To Castle Wolfenstein.)

          Or it could get sold to Bethesda, who'll add such exciting new twists as item damage (Duke's boots will need repairs after every 5 asses kicked), armours that don't actually stop much damage, etc. And a construction kit which the users can use to add such original, meaningful, in-character stuff as jedi lightsabers, black recolours of everything (hey, it's an easy to use filter in either Photoshop or Gimp), silenced portable fully-automatic nuclear howitzers, and the ever popular DD-cup naked female bodies.

          As a welcome twist for nostalgic fans of their past games, the creative genius behind Morrowind's story is brought back. In Duke too, the story will again be along the lines of, "go and save the world, if you can be arsed to. No hurry. If you can't be bothered, someone else will. See if we care. It's not like the evil will happen in less than a few thousand years anyway. If it does at all, that is."

          Gamers sick of being told where to go and how urgent their mission is, will undoubtedly welcome the change. Self-confessed casual gamer John Smith is quoted as saying, "Finally a game which doesn't put me under pressure. I couldn't take it any more, being told how I'm the only one who can save the world, or how urgent it is. It can make a guy incredibly stressed, you know? It made me want to curl up in a corner and cry, like when I can't find a card to move in Windows Solitaire. I was waking up at night in cold sweat, thinking that maybe the Ultimate Evil is finally succeeding while I sleep. It's a stressful life, knowing you're the big hero. Knowing that I'm a completely unimportant nobody and that nothing bad is going to happen anyway, now that's a welcome change of pace."

      • In some ways the EA mentality can be good. While I'm not a fan of the "Just repacakge last year's stuff," they pull with sports games I do like to see new games based on existing properties I like released. Completely new, never before seen games are great too, but if a title was good I want more of it, with newer graphics and such.

        That is why I'm optimistic about Bioware getting bought by EA. While EA has the chronic problem of "Just release more of the same," Bioware has the opposite problem. They'll inve

    • by jsse (254124) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @10:02PM (#27901455) Homepage Journal

      Sell the property to someone who will actually create something..

      I share your feeling when the footage features a naked strip dancer.

      Please oh please, don't just stop there....

    • Seriously. Look at that video. It's the most beautiful vapourware I've ever seen. The leaked footage has the atmosphere that made Duke Nukem 3D so great, and I can see only improvements there. I haven't played games for about a while now, but this looks like a game I would have killed to play.

      They might have failed spectacularly, and deserve being laughed for that over-than-a-decade vapourware inanity, but this shows that they had something. And should be applauded for the quality what they were attempting.

  • Cool, but, . . . (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cashman73 (855518) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:21PM (#27901179) Journal
    It looked cool, but for all the years they put into the development, and redevelopment, and reredevelopment, I have to admit I was expecting more. I think it would be cool if they made the Duke Nukem series a big open source project -- let the community develop it. Either that, or give the intellectual property rights to a University with a good gaming development/design program, and let them use it to teach the various aspects of game design.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Whatever they could have released never would have lived up to the hype; maybe it's for the best.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Vectronic (1221470)

      Developers!
      Redevelopers!
      Reredevelopers!

    • They should have made Prey into the Duke Nukem Game. They would have taken a small hit to their credibility, but at least they would have had a slightly above average game released a few years ago.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Tom (822)

      And you think that would work, why?

      "Open Source" isn't a magic word. The failure rate of Open Source / Free Software projects is certainly on par with that of closed source projects. More importantly, a game needs a game designer. It needs vision and a driving force, and you can not get that by democratically agree-upon compromise solutions.

      Would Duke be as politically incorrect as he is if the project had been created in a multi-national fluid group? I doubt that.

    • by cstdenis (1118589)

      The OSS community already has it's own never ending project: HURD

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:24PM (#27901207)

    is if the developers had, I dunno, got that work done on time.

    • by fractoid (1076465) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @10:26PM (#27901615) Homepage
      You must be new to software. The developers did the work probably 20 times over, and the management structure was so messed up that 90% of said work got thrown away. The problems are twofold:
      1. Programmers and artists generally aren't "people persons" and as such are happy to focus on their passion and let someone else manage
      2. Management is like investment banking. It's very difficult to tell the difference between good management and bad management until the shit hits the fan, and by then it's too late.

      So what you end up with is either (as happens in successful software companies) someone forceful seizes control of the development process, and the success or failure of the team rests on their shoulders, or (as usually happens) no-one really takes charge, and everyone with vague job descriptions wastes all their time doing nothing (or doing meaningless busywork) while Rome burns.

      It's generally a good sign of a software company's health if it has a clearly defined process not just for actual software development, but for planning and milestone setting. Even with a clear process in place, and even with management staff committed to transparency, it still takes a long while at the start of the project to weed out the idiots who slipped into management roles, and replace them with competent people. Once the weeding-out process is close to completion, the actual development work can start in earnest.

      • by Kjella (173770)

        I think lack of finding a clear release window and sticking to it is the problem. Given how FPS games has evolved immensly with new graphics hardware both in features and throughput, you have to set a date, get everything released and be done with it. Once you start missing that window it just cascades with "we need a new engine", "we need higher trinangle count models", "we need to use T&L", "we need to use programmable shaders", "we need to redo shadows" and the more you start to fix and delay the mor

      • by badasscat (563442)

        It's generally a good sign of a software company's health if it has a clearly defined process not just for actual software development, but for planning and milestone setting.

        You hit it squarely on the head.

        I used to read these statements from 3DR about the game being done "when it's done" with bemusement, because while many saw that as a commitment to quality, I just saw it as code for "we have no idea what we're doing, so don't hold your breath".

        DNF should be a lesson to everybody that milestones and dead

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          (This is no different than any other creative medium, btw. Film, music, art... creators are never fully satisfied.)

          Even when they should be. I'm looking at you George Lucas...

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by MoldySpore (1280634)

      "On Time" is something 3D Realms didn't understand. I mean, they EMBRACED the fact that everyone called it vaporware and LOVED that nobody thought it was coming out. I hope it stings REALLY bad for them now that they aren't going to get to release it, cause I know after all the little things they've let slip out over the last couple years (trailers, screenshots, etc) that it pisses me off.

      I agree with making the project open source. That would be nice. But hopefully a big name dev will pick it up and finish

  • "Leaked" (Score:5, Funny)

    by DanWS6 (1248650) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:26PM (#27901213)
    Yeah, just like Windows 7 Betas/News were "leaked".
  • by fractoid (1076465) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:32PM (#27901253) Homepage
    I recently watched the games company I worked for come within inches of liquidation while our almost-ready-to-launch title sat on the shelf going nowhere. They seem to be back on their feet now, thankfully, but it was a very rough 6 months for them and they lost most of their staff (including myself).

    The thing that really got to me, a little at first and then more and more, was what would happen to the game that we'd all worked so hard on. The parent company had proven very inept at finding a publisher (two deals came to the final meeting before our directors walked away claiming the terms weren't good enough) and they owned the copyright on the code and assets. Most likely the game would just have ended up mothballed permanently.

    I'd like to see some provision whereby almost complete products owned by a freshly deceased company could be freed (open sourced, or just released unencumbered by any copyright). Surely the cultural loss of media like this is far greater than the cultural loss claimed by copyright proponents as due to lack of compensation.
    • by zonky (1153039) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:48PM (#27901383)
      So.. if you're in a position of power over a company- i.e you owe them a lot of money, you can starve the company, force bankruptcy upon it, then get their source code? Hmm. Wonder what could possibly go wrong here?
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by fractoid (1076465)
        If you're in a position of power over a company you can already extort things from them. ("You owe us six months rent, let us use your soundtrack or find a new office" works just fine under the current system.)

        The problem with using software as part of a company's hard assets, and trying to liquidate it to pay debts, is that part-built software is near useless without the people working on it. At the very least, it costs 3+ months of development time to get a new team up to speed on the codebase. I'd say
      • by SpecBear (769433)

        It's open source. You'd starve the company, force it into bankruptcy, and then everybody would get their source code.

      • by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Monday May 11, 2009 @03:11AM (#27903213)

        The whole point of agreeing to publish (meaning pay for) a game is that you want to make money on it. A development stupid has an idea that you think will make money, so you agree to fund said idea and bring it to market. In return, you get to make money on all the sales.

        So sure, depending on the contract, you could refuse to give them more money, stop the project, and take what assets have been developed. But then what? Now you've paid for something that isn't useful to you. You have a nice unfinished game and nobody working on it. Wonderful. That is stupid business 101 right there.

        It also isn't as though you can just take a finished product and run. There is going to be a contract between you and the developers. Now maybe the contract is straight pay for work. Like "We agree to pay you X amount to make this product." Ok well then the developers don't care what you do, they've been paid. You sell it or don't sell it as you like, they aren't getting more money from you for this game no matter what. Maybe it is a royalty situation "10% of all sales," or the like. Ok well you still have to pay that. So if you grab the finished product, well the contract is still in force, you still have to pay them the royalties, so again they don't really care. You "cut and run," so to speak, they make their money all the same.

        What it comes down to is that all the assets that go in to a game are only worth anything when they are all put together in to a working game that can be sold. So there is nothing for a publisher to gain from trying to cut and run in the middle of development. It is in their interests to see the game completed so they have a product they can put on the shelves.

    • by Chyeld (713439)

      There already is a provision for this, it's called liquidation. Except, instead of just being 'thrown' away (and yes I'm a supporter of open source and the public domain, but I'm also a supporter of the folk a company owes money to getting as much of that back as possible), assets are sold to the highest bidder.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by atraintocry (1183485)

      The problem is that the public at large did not fund the game. If there are investors involved, the assets, however worthless, belong to them and it is their within their right to get whatever they can from them. Maybe the code itself would be worthless but there might be good gameplay ideas, etc.

      Surely the cultural loss of media like this is far greater than the cultural loss claimed by copyright proponents as due to lack of compensation.

      Can't say I disagree. Capitalism is a double-edged sword.

      • by fractoid (1076465)

        Can't say I disagree. Capitalism is a double-edged sword.

        Oh, definitely. I just recall that the original rationalisation for copyright was that if artists did not get compensated for their work, then they wouldn't be able to continue to produce art, and thus that we would all suffer culturally. Hence, by the original rationale, copyright shouldn't apply in this situation. :)

        Agreed that the investors should be compensated, my thought was just that game assets tend to be more of a white elephant than a real asset to the investors, whereas the dev team may still b

        • by atraintocry (1183485) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @11:19PM (#27901933)

          Definitely. It's not like 60% finished software has 60% of the value of a finished product. There's a large amount of waste.

          It's similar in the music industry. One example (out of probably hundreds of thousands) is Paul Pena's New Train...cameos by established stars, and at least one song that was already a hit ("Jet Airliner" which Steve Miller butchered). And musically just a great album, something that any label would be proud to put out.

          But Albert Grossman's ego was such that it only came out in 2000, despite being recorded in 1973.

          My friend was working on something for THQ subsidiary that will most likely will never see the light of day. I get the impression that most game code has a similar fate.

          It's unfortunate when people in creative professions have to submit to people who don't value the work outside of what it will sell for. On the other hand, many a company has been mismanaged by a creative professional who undervalued the art of business and/or compromise and thought, "I'll just be my own boss, it's not that hard". Look at Apple Records in the 70s, or Image Comics in the 90s.

    • by Ilgaz (86384)

      I keep having this name in my mind... "John Carmack". Purchase the engine/assets and make money from them or just do it for "game programming is an art, games are pieces of art" attitude.

      Game has nothing to do with their titles either, it would introduce a new kind of customer/fan to ID software which feels like they really owe them.

      Of course, I don't know how realistic my hope is.

    • by Trojan35 (910785)

      Usually, someone buys the rights to those products, even if it's only $5. If no one is willing to pay a dollar for it, is it really of any value anyways?

  • by suricatta (617778) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:33PM (#27901259)
    First, when they shut down, we saw the screenshots. Now, we're seeing the gameplay footage.

    I'm quitely (well not so quietly now that I'm talking about it) suspecting that we may next see the leaked marketing materials, then the playable demo, then behold! The laid off staff members actually finished the game! Here it is in all its glory!

    Given the fact that this game has been one of the most famous vapourware titles for over a decade, could this simply be a marketing stunt leading up to it's release?
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:55PM (#27901417)

      It's not a publicity stunt. Their site was down the entire day after the news broke, presumably from all the traffic. If it was really a super secret publicity stunt, they would have been able to plan ahead to have enough capacity on their server/network to handle all the extra traffic from the "stunt."

      There's a much simpler explanation for the leaks. All the laid off employees are now looking for new jobs. Since Duke Nukem Forever on the resume is worthless, they are now showing off their work for the game. "Hey, I worked on Duke Nukem Forever. Yes, I actually did work. Here are some samples from my time working on the game."

      • by CAIMLAS (41445)

        Their site was down the entire day after the news broke, presumably from all the traffic. If it was really a super secret publicity stunt, they would have been able to plan ahead to have enough capacity on their server/network to handle all the extra traffic from the "stunt."

        That's part of the stunt. It leads to speculation, guessing, and ultimately anticipation. When people are curious, they're more likely to talk about it with others: what's going on? Did you hear? What do you think?

        That's good (free) marketing. Why put in extra effort for not only a diminished return ("Their site's up, what's the big deal?"), but an actual negative return (because they'd make more advertising impressions by not spending the money in the first place).

        I could very well be wrong, but this feels

    • Given the fact that this game has been one of the most famous vapourware titles for over a decade, could this simply be a marketing stunt leading up to it's release?

      Why don't you ask the now-former 3D Realms employees?

    • by mlts (1038732) *

      Depends who has the IP rights. The IP could vanish forever into thin air like a lot of the Origin IP after it got bought out by EA. I'm hoping that someone who owns the rights can put out not just DNF, but sequels to it, because Duke Nukem is a very distinct game character, and a nice fun change from the usual 3D shooters out there.

    • We're playing it right now, didn't you notice the one up at the strip club? I think if you search the fountain at the mall you'll find a shot gun...

    • by Kamokazi (1080091) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @11:26PM (#27901957)
      Well, their Web Admin said on the forums specifically that it is not a "marketing thing". I don't think he could lie about that...but he could mislead away from the truth. 3DRealms no longer existing does not mean the entire DNF team has not been rehired and is still continuing to work on the game :-) So ultimately it may be a marketing thing in a way, but not directly. And the timing is just too good. They mentioned this year they are hitting milestones and cutting content for a release....the first hints of a release date in at least 5 years. Not to mention, it happens almost exactly a month before E3. And now concept art, screens, and gameplay footage is 'leaked', and just enough of it to be consistent with the amount of material that other games release leading up to a game launch. Not only that, what better way to drum up hype about a game? Announce the company is closing and hit news headlines everywhere. And then we're probably just over-optimistic fools. But I don't think this is the end in either case...the game is an asset that is probably up for sale, and it has a great following, for better or for worse. Someone will release the damn thing.
  • DNF (Score:3, Insightful)

    by antiaktiv (848995) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @09:42PM (#27901339)
    I still haven't seen anyone joke about how in sports DNF is short for did not finish. Can we get on that?
  • Looks like the Duke to me, too bad about all the circumstances involved. Seems like it would have been decent at least.

  • So are they going to either sell it or make it FOSS?

  • by TinBromide (921574) on Sunday May 10, 2009 @11:08PM (#27901895)
    I feel as though a dozen voices have cried out and were silenced. In the back of my mind, I knew that things were OK because DNF was in development. Somewhere, some programmer or mapper was toiling away on a game that would never be released, hoping that his piece would make it into an E3 video, or better, be leaked!

    In all seriousness, I really hope they leak the game as it stood in 2001. There is very little about that IP that would be of value to a potential debtor. The new gameplay looks like it would stand up to modern games if given a 6-8 months finishing rush cycle under good management. Granted button events are lame, but everything else looks like it'd be a fun romp. Maybe it wouldn't be top 5 titles of the year, but I'd pay 50 bucks for it. That being said, the video didn't have enough time to demonstrate what made duke 3d great, the personality of the game. I mean in multiplayer, you could drop a pipe bomb, if somebody collected it, you could detonate it on their body, no matter where they were! I mean you just don't get dynamics like that nowadays. That kind of mechanic doesn't show up well in 2 minute demo vids.
  • If you ever wonder why old-school bosses are needed in this world. You know the guys in the shirt and tie that expect people to show up to work on time and produce results, this is why.

    It didnt even have to be a computer pro, just a competent manager their dad's age to say.

    "Boys and girls you have some nice looking stuff here, now lets put it all together and make a videogame"

    It sounds like you have a lot of talented people working without a sense of guidance or direction.

  • My understanding was that all the "footage" that was ever made for DNF was all fake, scripted video, not a view of a playable demo that they were playing with in-house.
  • I'm really hoping that someone will write a post-mortem of the project for Game Developer magazine. It sounds like what happened here was a classic case of "the design document is in my head."

    I once worked on a game project that lacked direction; I'm curious to hear just how much the experience here mirrored my own. (From the post linked in the story, it sounds suspiciously similar. If you don't have someone at your company whose mandate includes calling bull$#!% on projects that aren't going anywhere, and

  • by Eskarel (565631) on Monday May 11, 2009 @01:28AM (#27902735)

    Duke Nukem belongs in another era, an era when parents didn't know what their kids were playing and the media ignored games.

    The reason they can't get 5 mil to finish it is because it won't sell very well. It'll end up with an AO rating(because violence aside boobies are bad in the USA) and the vast majority of resellers won't touch if with a fifty foot pole. Countries that don't have an AO rating(like Australia where I live damned South Australian AG) won't even be able to legally sell it.

    The game is about 10 years too late, and/or about 5-10 years too early. They'd have to cull everything that made it duke nukem and then you'd just end up with yet another outdated fps. I mean really what's the point. It'll be lucky if it makes 5 million dollars, let alone enough to actually have whatever stake in the product 3DR was offering to potential investors(probably a few percent) to provide reasonable ROI. The 30 million they were offered for the whole thing lock stock and barrel is the best offer they're ever going to get and they'll be out of business and DNF will be in the bin where, realistically, it belongs.

    Hopefully someone will do a post-mortem on the bloated corpse and the industry can learn some important lessons and it can at least provide some sort of positive legacy.

  • I bet it'll be released any day now! Where can I pre-order?

  • Whatever state it's in, I hope they release it anyways. Just so us who've actually been waiting the whole time (ok, "were around when DNF was first announced and didn't entirely forget about it over the years" is probably closer) can get closure.

    It looks playable, if that's actual gameplay footage. And if I have to load each level via console, and half the guns aren't working properly, and whatever else is missing - I'd still want to play it, at least once.

  • There have been a lot of posts demanding the release of the DN(F) code into the open source community, but I wonder if that is even feasilbe. Legal and commercial issues aside it I guess they will have amassed hundreds of thousands (or even millions of lines) of code that is in different states and versions and has been re-written for a a decade. Not to mention story board, skripts 3D-Models, Level Layouts etc. I guess it would take 20 dedicated and qualified people the better part of a year to make an ass
  • From the last link in the summary, "things that have happened during DNF's development cycle":

    > World War II and the Manhattan project took less time than DNF.

    "Nukem 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!"

    > 661 million people have been born.

    "Don't worry babes; there's enough Duke to go around."

    > George W. Bush was elected and re-elected.

    "You're an inspiration for birth control."

    > Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Marvel movies, Star Wars prequels.

    "[after discovering Luke Skywalker's corpse

  • Seriously. After all this time in development, do they really think that players want to spend that much time having Duke look at the floor? No really, when the level boss knocks you back in a heated battle, the last thing a player wants is to stare at the floor for several seconds while more missiles may or may not be coming his way. How would we even know until we exploded?!?
  • I watched the video, I saw the screenshots, and I can't believe it's come down to this exact feeling I have looking at all of it:

    Eh.

    Duke was *special*. It was a FPS in the era of Doom and Quake that gave humor and a personality to the genre. Who here played Doom, then played Doom2, and didn't think "Wow! More of the same!" Quake was especially disappointing insofar as, yes, it was 3-D and all, but it too lacked that certain "something" that kept me playing DN well into the 21st century.

    But all of that is go

  • Some company with a lot of money should buy the rights to it and have it ship on Windows last.
    Either OSX, Linux, Windows, or Linux, OSX, Windows.

Don't sweat it -- it's only ones and zeros. -- P. Skelly

Working...