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Comments: 664 +-   Publishers Want a Slice of Used Game Market on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:12PM

Posted by timothy on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:12PM
from the you-wanna-piece-a-this? dept.
business
money
entertainment
games
grigory writes "GameStop's business model depends on a healthy flow of used games: incredibly '[GameStop] enjoys a 48 percent profit margin on used games.' Game publishers do not see a cut of the secondary sale because it falls under the first sale doctrine. Now, some publishers and manufacturers want a piece of the pie. 'One marketing executive, who did not want to be identified for fear of angering GameStop and other retailers, said the used game sale market is still depriving publishers of money because it gives consumers an all-too-easy alternative to buying a new game.' Interesting picture of companies fighting for your business, and (surprise!) complaining about being left out of the money stream."
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  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:15PM (#28216391)
    and gets it!
    • by Shikaku (1129753) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:43PM (#28216717)

      How about they actually make games that have replay value and don't suck so that nobody will want to trade them in?

      • by goombah99 (560566) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:24PM (#28217053)

        they could announce they were cutting the price of games by 1/2 unless gamestop revenue shares. If they did that then the price of used games would drop by half too and game stop would lose half its revenue!

        The price drop would actually not mean fully half revenue loss for the publishers because they would sell more games.

        • by chromatic (9471) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:40PM (#28217175) Homepage

          The price drop would actually not mean fully half revenue loss for the publishers because they would sell more games.

          I was just thinking the same thing. The presence of a used games market demonstrates that there are customers who prefer to buy games at a lower price. The real question is whether they would buy the game at the higher price if there were no used market (that is, they're out for a bargain) or whether the lower price convinced them to buy something they wouldn't buy normally.

          If there are enough of the latter, it's worth doing.

          • by goombah99 (560566) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:53PM (#28217267)

            The price drop would actually not mean fully half revenue loss for the publishers because they would sell more games.

            I was just thinking the same thing. The presence of a used games market demonstrates that there are customers who prefer to buy games at a lower price. The real question is whether they would buy the game at the higher price if there were no used market (that is, they're out for a bargain) or whether the lower price convinced them to buy something they wouldn't buy normally.

            If there are enough of the latter, it's worth doing.

            that's a really good point. For example, I don't mind paying extra for a toyota or an apple computer in part because I know that when I sell it, I get more back too. I do take that into account when I compare prices of cars and computers. Oddly I think most people do not.

            • by Firethorn (177587) on Thursday June 04 2009, @08:29PM (#28217489) Homepage Journal

              that's a really good point. For example, I don't mind paying extra for a toyota or an apple computer in part because I know that when I sell it, I get more back too. I do take that into account when I compare prices of cars and computers. Oddly I think most people do not.

              Given that I don't buy things I anticipate selling anytime soon, considering resale value is secondary to meeting my demands. For example, with computers I still have mine from a decade ago. Given the depreciation rate of computers, resale value is pretty low on the list. Basically, paying extra for a feature I don't want in order to increase the resale value doesn't motivate me because it won't increase the resale over the additional cost. Why spend $500 on something to increase the resale $200?

              Cars? I buy them to last a decade or more in my possession - Of course, the reason toyotas have higher resale values when used is that they last forever - that's a consideration.

          • by CastrTroy (595695) on Thursday June 04 2009, @08:27PM (#28217479) Homepage
            Personally, I never buy a game unless I think it's something that I want to keep. I don't think it's right to give a publisher $60 for a game that I will only get 20 hours play out of, regardless of whether or not I can sell it later. I buy a lot of WiiWare games simply because they are only $10. I really don't mind if I only play it for 5 hours when I only pay $10. Personally, I think publishers of all media (games, books, software, music, movies) would do a lot better if they sold their products for a cheaper price. Don't make me think about buying it. Make it pure impulse, and you will set a lot more product.
          • by SignalFreq (580297) on Thursday June 04 2009, @09:39PM (#28217835)
            I never purchase new games anymore. Interestingly, it's not because I can't afford to drop $60 on the game, but because I just can't see the game being worth $60. For $60 I get 20 hours of content, maybe 30, I'm taking a risk on not liking the game, not being able to return it for a full refund, and encountering bugs or game play issues that are silly and frustrating. Not to mention the irritations of DRM.

            I'd much rather wait a year or more and buy the game at $20 new on sale. I still get the same content, I get the benefit of a year's worth of reviews to decide if I like it, and most bugs and game play issues have been fixed. I just finished Mass Effect, loved it, and bought it new for $20 instead of $59 when it was released.

            Publishers have definitely priced themselves out of my market and what I'm willing to spend on entertainment. Even though I can easily afford to pay more, I won't because it offends my sense of reasonable value. I think the turning point for me was around $40... anything more than that just seems like they are gouging me. I probably purchase 10-15 games a year, so assuming 10, if they priced at $40 they would get $400 from me, instead, I wait and they only get $200 from me.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:47PM (#28217229)

        All i'm hearing is "whaaa! I want more money" bullshit. I am tired of these companies who want everyone else to play by the rules (copyright) trying to circumvent the first sale doctrine. Guess what assholes, someone already paid the market price you set for the game and you got your compensation. If you think it's unfair, raise the prices and see if you get as many people purchasing your game. It is bad enough game companies sit on games that they have effectively abandoned, abuse people's PCs with malware designed to "stop piracy" and overall treat the customer with general contempt.

        Gaming companies have already done a bang up job preventing PC gamers from selling/giving away their game to other interested parties and now they want to double tax paying customers because of their silly said business model. So go ahead and cripple the resale market. You may be able to kill it but there will always be the black market and those first sales you may have gotten will dry up as well.

      • The translation:

        "Wah wah wah!"

        Perhaps if you greedy bastards didn't sell games at the price you do more people would buy them. Instead, for a lot of people, they can't just casually pick up a game and take a chance like you would on, say, a $20 DVD. $70 is a LOT of money to gamble on something that stands a 50/50 chance of being garbage. And no retailer I've ever come across will give you your money back under any circumstances, so you take a big chance buying most new games.

        Perhaps if the industry didn't put out so much absolute garbage we'd be more willing to take the chance. Unfortunately they aren't willing to not release unfinished games, crap games, and so much other effluence.

        They're reaping what they have sown. And all they seem to do is cry about used games and how they're losing revenue.

        Cry me a river.

        • by pugugly (152978) on Thursday June 04 2009, @09:15PM (#28217727)

          The height of American corporate practice - we won't do anything to keep our customers but will spend millions creating artificial mechanisms to distort the market and end any competition for them.

          The good news is they're succeeding wildly - for instance I've neither pirated nor bought big corporate music in years because I can't stand either option. Instead I just buy direct from bands for half the price in a market *not* distorted by Sony and BMG, and by odd coincidence the artist gets to keep all of it.

          It turns out market arbitrage is not a constitutionally protected right.

          Pug

  • by telchine (719345) * on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:16PM (#28216401)

    Someone should tell them that, since Steam appeared there is no used games market.

    Hell, come to think of it, now Steam's here, very soon there won't be such things as publishers!

    Sucks to be them! Maybe someone should tell them?

    • by Lordfly (590616) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:19PM (#28216455) Homepage Journal

      Steam only works on PC games. If you notice, a Gamestop stocks only the top... 10 or so PC games (in a tiny shelf hidden from everything else). That's because they can't resell them. They have more PS2 games than they do PC.

      Seriously, about 60% of the store is resold merchandise. They stopped being a games retailer and became a pawn shop years ago. When will they buy my gold watch?

      • by thule (9041) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:34PM (#28216613) Homepage

        I hadn't purchased anything from Gamestop until recently. My employer moved offices recently and now we are across the street from a Gamestop. I went over to purchase LIttle Big Planet and they assumed I wanted the used copy. There was only $5 difference between the used and the new and I figured I'd rather get the new. I knew something was up when the guy behind the counter kept telling me I could save a few dollars if I got the used one. Was I really sure I wanted the new one? Are you really sure? I figured they must be doing very will with their used games. Most of the store is full of used games.

        What does Gamestop pay for used games? They must have some soft of dynamic system that keeps track of demand and quantity on hand before they quote a price. Is it worthwhile to sell games to Gamestop? They wanted to sell me on a membership card that would give me 15% when I sold a game to them.

        The few games that I have bought used were from Gamefly. The nice thing about Gamefly is they at least give you a *new* case (not a beat up and gross one), cover art, and the booklet. I supposed I'm picky though, I don't buy a game unless I know I really want to keep a copy for a long time.

          • by pwizard2 (920421) on Thursday June 04 2009, @09:39PM (#28217833)
            What Gamestop is doing is hardly innovative; It's the college textbook business model. Buy it used, pay about 60-70% new price. (or worse) Sell it back at the end of the semester and you're lucky to recoup 40%. Back in my college days, I often did what I could to avoid buying textbooks because of rackets like that, but sometimes there was no other way.
    • by TorKlingberg (599697) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:22PM (#28216479)

      now Steam's here, very soon there won't be such things as publishers!

      Steam is a publisher.

    • by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:31PM (#28216571)

      In the context of a game "publisher" usually means "Guys with the cash." Basically the publisher is the company that ponies up the money to have the game made. That is why you'll see even companies like Epic have publishers. It isn't as though Epic needs someone else's name to sell their game. It is that they don't want to incur all the financial risk. So you get a publisher to pay for it, often a much bigger company.

      Gears of War was published by Microsoft, for example. So suppose they spent $20 million on making it. Not an unreasonable amount for a game that quality, maybe they even spent more. Now let's suppose it had bombed for whatever reason. Had Epic incurred that cost, it would be real hard. They are a private company that employs about 75 people. Private means they can't just sell stock to raise money. A $20 million loss would equal over a quarter million dollar loss per employee.

      Now MS is a massive public company. They've got the cash sitting around that $20 million is peanuts. What's more they can sell stock if they need to raise money. Thus the risk is something they can afford to take.

      More over, many dev studios aren't sitting on much cash at all. So they need money during the development time of the game. After all you have to pay the programmers and artists and such while the game is being written, not after it sells. So even if they were willing to assume the risk, they just can't since they just don't have the money it would take.

      You do see some companies that self publish. Stardock has done this. Galactic Civilizations II was written by them and published by them. Means they self financed the game. All the risk and all the rewards are theirs alone. They've now gotten in to publishing other games as well.

      So publishers probably aren't going away. Many development studios will want someone to pay for their game, and that is what a publisher does. The publisher won't actually distribute the game, they'll just fund it, and then sign agreements with services like Steam and Impulse to get the game to consumers.

      Also, as big as Steam is, you are kidding yourself if you think it is more than a fraction of the market. There are plenty of publishers that don't release games on Steam, and even those that do are often not exclusive. EA sells many of their games on Steam now which gives Steam a huge boost in titles since EA is massive, however EA also sells their games in stores. The store copies don't use Steamworks or anything, they are totally independent of Steam.

    • by rtb61 (674572) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:34PM (#28216617) Homepage

      Steam used games, no problem, sell your account with all your games. Next person can then change all the details on the account to make it accurate for them. No if steam was really nice it would allow you to transfer game access rights for a minimal fee to other account holders.

    • by amicusNYCL (1538833) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:47PM (#28216751)

      I think that person should be you. I think that you should call GameStop up and inform them that there is actually no used games market and that the revenue they bring in from selling used games actually does not exist. I'm sure they would be grateful to be informed of that so that they can adjust their business model from the insight that you can provide. I would offer to do this myself, but clearly I do not possess the same insight as you.

        • by amicusNYCL (1538833) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:43PM (#28217199)

          Now come back in 10 years and tell me GameStop are still making money from used games.

          o...k... I'll be sure to mark that on my calendar. I don't think used games are going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

          Just because a company's short term business model is pulling in a profit doesn't mean your shares will be worth anything in a few years time!

          Yeah, no shit Professor Obvious. But considering the fact that GameStop's business model is 25 years old, and isn't exactly what I would consider "short-term", I really don't think drastic changes are going to happen in the next "few years" to substantially alter that model. People will always be buying games, and GameStop is one place that will always be selling them. The only way a place like GameStop would go out of business is if *all* game distribution switched to an online model. That isn't going to happen as long as people want to play games on devices that are not online.

          If you disagree with that, perhaps you'd like to buy my shares in the company that made Tamagotchi?

          Are you really trying to compare a decades-old multibillion dollar industry with a Japanese fad? And were you really stupid enough to buy those shares?

          I hope you can understand my writing even though I'm not using exclamation points, let me know if that's a problem for you.

      • There's no Steam for the Nintendo DS. (as an example)

        The Nintendo DSi has the functionally equivalent DSiWare.

        While Sony and Nintendo are slowly moving towards more and more DLC and downloaded games, they don't come with manuals or boxes

        You're right that they don't come with boxes, but all WiiWare and Virtual Console games that I've tried have an instruction manual under the Home menu.

        The "downloadable" option isn't available for older machines - the heart of the used market

        Apart from the Nintendo DS and PlayStation 2, older machines don't have any commercial developers to complain about them. There aren't any new SKUs for the GBA, the original Xbox, the GameCube, or any pre-PS2 system, unless you count the few games sold by homebrewers [retrousb.com].

  • by JoshuaZ (1134087) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:16PM (#28216405) Homepage

    If a bookstore can sell used books without giving any money to the publisher, I fail to see why a game store can't sell used games. For that matter, are we going to insist that everytime a geekstore resells pokemon, magic cards, miniature collectibles or other similar items that they need to pay the publisher a fee? Or the same thing for baseball cards. And if the stores need to, why not the individuals? (Maybe I shouldn't be too loud about this but I'm sure the Post Office would love to get money from stamp collectors buying and selling their stamps. Or the Treasure Department and coins...)

    If your idea sounds ridiculous when the product is replaced by a functionally identical product, the idea is probably ridiculous.

    • Well of course not (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:26PM (#28216517)

      If a bookstore can sell used books without giving any money to the publisher, I fail to see why a game store can't sell used games.

      That's because you're rational, and understand the first sale doctrine.

      Remember - these companies that are all in the selling entertainment business hold up the Holy Grail of money streams as their ideal. The RIAA. Make an item once, and every single time it changes hands, media - whatever - make a buck on it.

      It's insane, but there's also a metric ton of cash involved, so of course the more unscrupulous types are going to gravitate towards that. Notice how the source who said the gaming companies "want in" on that revenue stream to which they are not entitled, refused to come forward and name himself/herself.

      Any shakedown racket in its infancy would behave the same.

    • devil's advocate (Score:5, Insightful)

      by QuantumG (50515) * <qg@biodome.org> on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:33PM (#28216611) Homepage Journal

      I completely agree with you but their argument is simple: people are buying games new, installing it on their computer, installing any cracks necessary to make it play without the CD, then selling the game second hand (and then the cycle continues).

      They can't stop the NOCD cracks. They've tried. They can't run the game from CD, the performance is lousy. So all they can do is whine and lobby.

    • Over the years, paperback publishers have attempted to cut into the used market simply by narrowing the inside margins of their books. This forces you to spread the book open farther, leading to increased deterioration of the spine. Combine that with crappy glue, and you have a book that will fall apart after just a few readings.

      I have paperbacks from the 60s that are holding up better than ones from the 90s.
    • by Brian Gordon (987471) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:42PM (#28216699)
      USC Title 17 Chapter 1 Section 109(a) [copyright.gov] (phonorecord = album, software, game, etc)

      Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord. ...

      That section also specifically exempts console games from the law prohibiting the rental of phonorecords without the copyright holder's permission:

      blah blah rental blah This section does not apply to a computer program embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other purposes.

      • by jrronimo (978486) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:54PM (#28216827)
        Courts here in the US have already affirmed the rights of a user to re-sell software, despite licensing agreements. See Autodesk: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars [arstechnica.com] I can't find any follow-up, but I like to think that the decision stuck. I understand their *wanting* more money, but yeah: First Sale Doctrine. I think a MUCH 'better' way for them to deal with this is through first-sale exclusives. i.e., "Buy Gears of War 2 and get a multiplayer map pack code." That way, anyone that buys a new copy, gets the code. I would also recommend that they ALSO offer the same map packs online for, say, $10, so that even if a person buys the game secondarily, if they want the "full" multiplayer experience, they can still get it. I guess they could 'force' users towards brand new retail copies by not offering the map pack except as redeemable by a code, but that just seems like lost sales to me. I really think that game publishers need to stop being crybabies about secondhand games and find a way to make their product more valuable to the consumers. Or make the games cheaper: I'd certainly rather spend $40 on a new game than $60. (Although that's being generous: Gamestop's policy seems to be the Wal*Mart approach "New = $60, used = $57.99"). Ideally, though, games (both new and used) would be cheaper.
      • by mdmkolbe (944892) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:53PM (#28217265)

        US law says otherwise. As defined by 17 USC 101, a "copy" is a physical instance of the physical media (game cartage, CD, etc.). Under 17 USC 117, ownership of a "copy" of software confers the right to install and use the software on that copy. As long as the transaction at the store counter relative to the physical media is a physical property purchase, then you get the intellectual property rights to install and use the intellectual property contained in that physical property.

      • by cpt kangarooski (3773) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:05PM (#28216925) Homepage

        Of course, that's a fairly recent change in the law (1990, IIRC), and not a good one.

        Why shouldn't it be legal to rent those things? It was asserted that it was because people would rent them, then unlawfully make a copy to avoid buying one. However, events have shown that 1) That's not a serious problem, given that movies are rented and are thus susceptible to this sort of piracy, yet rental-related piracy hasn't noticeably harmed the movie industry; 2) With the advent of the Internet, it's unlikely that anyone would go through the inconvenience of renting music or games to pirate them, making the restriction on rental ineffective and thus in need of being eliminated.

        First sale should not distinguish amongst types of works, nor should it be limited. That is just yet another example of the corrupt practices of the copyright industry, having the law twisted so that it no longer serves the public interest.

  • What's Next? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nate_in_ME (1281156) <nsmith@smythso[ ]com ['ft.' in gap]> on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:16PM (#28216407)
    If they are actually successful in doing anything about this, what next? Car manufacturers complaining because they don't get a "cut" of used car sales, because used car dealers are providing an "easy alternative" to buying new?

    Either that, or game publishers will be the next on the bailout list...
    • Re:What's Next? (Score:5, Informative)

      by mabhatter654 (561290) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:39PM (#28217169)

      That's the really funny thing, is that for durable goods there are very clear laws that car manufacturers can't interfere with resale or used car markets and have to honor warranties and such. It seems that "copyright" related iterms keep grabbing more and more power when the power for actual manufacturers is consistantly kept in check.

      Automakers tie diagnostic tools and engine codes to "IP" rules all the time even using the DMCA and Congress routinely takes that away from them when they try to hide behind the "weenie" IP laws that game publishers are trying to hide behind.

  • by JustNilt (984644) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:19PM (#28216447)

    had done this also? Would they have managed to get their way, one is forced to wonder? Would GM be thriving if they had a cut of every used car sale? Who the F--- do these publishers think they are anyway?! If this happens will I have to pay Dell every time my business sells a refurbished Dell PC? Hell, the pawnbrokers alone will never allow such a thing to go through.

    These are somewhat rhetorical questions and the slippery slope fallacy applies a bit. Still, the principle is sound as a reason why the publishers shouldn't get a cut of used game sales, in my opinion.

  • Just like.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SirLoadALot (991302) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:19PM (#28216449)

    This is just like with a car, or some other item, where the original manufacturer gets a kickback every time it is resold because -- hey, wait, they don't get anything from it because that's a stupid idea! The original manufacturer has already sold it and given up any future interest in it for a fair price! Why the hell would the maker of a bad video game get more money every time EB manages to fob it off again on an unsuspecting customer?

  • by Punto (100573) <<puntob> <at> <gmail.com>> on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:19PM (#28216451) Homepage

    it's the original sale, that's their slice.

    • by solios (53048) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:31PM (#28216583) Homepage

      Ask a manager or employee of a gamestore what their markup is on new games - what they actually make as profit. If they're not complete assholes, they'll tell you - a games store makes only a couple of bucks off of the new stuff, if that - the publisher keeps the remainder. Pay 65$ for a new game, the publisher gets at least $60 of that.

      Pay $20 for a used game, the games store gets around 15-19$ of that, depending on the condition of and demand for the game. The markup may seem a bit ridiculous, but independent games stores would be out of business if it wasn't for the used market - the margins on new games are so thin that they'd have to move an enormous volume of product to make up for the difference they see in returns on used games.

      I'm all for the used market, even though I buy most of my games new - it keeps the stores in business, even with dozens (hundreds?) of copies of crap and not-as-popular-as-they-thought-they-would-be (Nintendogs, anyone?) games sitting on the shelves.

  • by gurps_npc (621217) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:26PM (#28216519)
    People don't decide "Hey, I want to buy a used game."

    Instead people say "Hey, I want to buy a CHEAP game, and don't care if it is not the newest thing out there."

    So if you are a game company wanting to get into the 'cheap, not recently released game' market, it is easy. Simply cut your prices for the stuff you brought out last year by 30% and for two years by 50%.

    You are not going to be cutting into your 'new releases' money, and you will be giving the people what they want.

  • by jtownatpunk.net (245670) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:27PM (#28216529)

    If they want a piece of the used game market, they can open their own stores and compete against GameStop just like everyone else.

  • by hidden (135234) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:28PM (#28216539)

    In the rest of the world, the only time the original Vendor/Distributor/Manufacturer/Whoever gets a cut of a second sale is when they're adding some value, by doing a factory refurbishment, or inspection, so why should the game publishers be any different?

    They can "refurbish" the game: Reset any DRM installation restrictions, clear out the multi-player accounts, check the disk for scratches, and replace any missing bits of paper in the box.

    Then they can have a cut.

    Until then, welcome to second hand sales.

  • Oh com'on! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DreamsAreOkToo (1414963) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:32PM (#28216597)

    I've been a gamer for over a decade now. The fact of the matter is the market is diluted with crap, and even a lot of the "hits" are a lot less fun/shorter than the games from last decade. I mean, sure, Gears of War is fun for a time, but how does it even compare to Deus Ex or Jedi Knight? I mean, you can even see how video games have progressed in the sequels of some titles. For example, compare Deus Ex 1 & 2, or Thief 2 & 3. Mario Party 2 and Mario Party 8.

    Then there's the sheer amount of crap, even from "trusted" and "quality" companies. Like Soulcalibur Legends. My friend is a big fighter game fan and bought that game. Usually Soulcalibur is a "quality" title, but that game was so shitty! It seemed like a demo it was so short and lacking features.

    You raised the prices of games by $10 and eroded their value. People aren't paying for new games because the price of a "new game" isn't worth it to them anymore. And it shows. It used to be that a New game would cost $50 and GS would be selling it used for $35. That means there's a lot of people buying the new game and few buying the used game (high supply of used games, low demand.) Now, the games costs $60 new and $55 used. Which means the exact opposite (low supply of used games, high demand.)

    If I was a game publisher and I wanted to kill the market for used video games, I'd lower my prices to $30 and probably sell more than twice as many copies, making it up in volume. I mean, if you want the new Gears of War, you'll try and save $5 off of it because it already costs so much. But the difference between $25 and $30? Not many people care. In addition, when I get sick of GoW and return it, I'm getting $30 bucks back. That's like a tank of gas. What would you get back for a $30 game, $15 bucks? That's not enough motivation.

  • by Diddlbiker (1022703) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:35PM (#28216633)
    So, copying software is theft, "just like stealing an apple, or stealing a car. There is no difference; you're stealing a product". And yet, when it comes to reselling those products, different rules apply? Once I've bought my apple, or car, or furbie, I can sell it to whoever I want for whatever price I want. Why would software be different if you want it to be treated as a tangible object?
  • by Rycross (836649) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:38PM (#28216665)

    Sony and Panasonic aren't complaining about used TV sales, Toyota isn't complaining about used car sales, and Dell isn't complaining about people reselling their computers. In what world is someone reselling the game considered taking away money from the publishers? Lets set aside the fact that some people will pay full price for a game because they know that they can resell it later and recoup some of the cost...

    Its not like people are going out to buy used games. They want cheap games. If they kept publishing their old games, and dropped the prices as the games got older, I'm sure they could take a huge chunk out of used game sales. Its not like I'm falling all over myself to save $5 off of a new game at GameStop. Seriously, every time I buy a recently released game, they offer me a used copy for $5 less. Oh boy, sign me up!

    It looks like that, instead of thinking about the problem and adjusting their business strategy, they've chosen to whine like petulant children about something that every other industry in the world (well, at least those based on real physical objects) doesn't have a problem with. Or maybe my brain just isn't sophisticated enough to understand their business genius. Either way, their little rant makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

  • by Jerf (17166) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:43PM (#28216715) Journal

    The game companies get their cut at the time of first sale. The selling cost of the game already includes in the price the value to the customer of the ability to resell the product. The assumption the game companies are making is that if they lock this out, they can sell more product at the current prices, but instead what will happen is that they will be have to drop their prices some amount to account for the fact that it is less valuable to the purchasers.

    This is a fairly standard element of elementary economics; for instance, see this chapter of Price Theory [daviddfriedman.com], where virtually this exact problem is problem number 12 in chapter two of the book.

    Which just goes to show that for all the supposed value of an MBA, people in business still routinely fail to apply even the simplest economics to their own worlds.

  • by FranTaylor (164577) on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:52PM (#28216809)

    "the used sale market is still depriving of money because it gives consumers an all-too-easy alternative to buying a new "

    This is the precise concept that motivates the First Sale Doctrine. You only get paid for selling something yourself. Why should you get paid when someone sells something that used to be yours? When you sell your used car, do you have to give a kickback to the person you bought it from? It makes no sense at all given the set of commerce rules that we have come to accept over the centuries.

    Really there is no end of the negative consequences that result if you decide that First Sale is not a valid concept. You have to question the entire meaning of the word "sale" if you do this.

  • In the age of the internet, games are uniquely poised to capitalize on aftermarket sales (and sales due to piracy) in a way that no medium in history has been able to, and it can all be done just by modifying the design of the product. Here's some examples that work extremely well:

    -DLC. Look at Burnout Paradise. Two years later, it's still getting meaty, significant upgrades on a regular basis. The game has had ELEVEN content updates, 5 of which were paid / premium add-ons. The publisher gets paid for each of those! Bethesda knows how to nail this too, despite some early mishaps with horse armor. Rockstar's figuring it out too. The right DLC will make you a ton of cash, even from the pirates.

    -Recurring subscriptions: Some MMO's give away their clients, and make their money on premium DLC and monthly subscription fees. Apogee understood this years ago, with the original Wolfenstein shareware. Download it and get 1/6 of the game, which was a meaty, satisfying experience on its own. But pay up and you can get the other 5/6ths!

    -High replay value: Rock Band & Left 4 Dead's co-operative multiplayer emphasis give them huge replay. I almost never see a reasonably priced copy of Rock Band sitting on the used shelf (trust me, I've looked, I want to import the songs into Rock Band 2). Rock Band follows the DLC model, too! The longer you convince someone to hold onto your game, the lower the aftermarket churn, and the higher you can keep your MSRP before you're undercut by the used market. Just ask the creators of Mass Effect, or Super Mario Galaxy (I dare you, get all 242 stars).

    -In-game advertsiing. The people who buy games used are necessarily doing so after the big retail splash of the original launch. These new eyeballs can view ads impressions just as well as the original pair, though, and the value of that digital billboard is only as high as the number of people who can look at it at any given time.

      Efforts to thwart the aftermarket's existence entirely, through one-time activation keys and emphasizing downloadable games, are just going to piss the customer off. The days of making a 4-hour singleplayer game with no replay value beyond deathmatch/ctf and expecting to have high sell-through are over; The high-budget $60 Terminator: Salvation game is only 4 hours long, it's going to be littering the shelves of used stores. The only way to stop the used market from undercutting the new market is to make the new experience so compelling, people don't want to part with their new game for a long, long time.

  • by benedictaddis (1472927) on Thursday June 04 2009, @10:12PM (#28218019)
    An identical situation - where the original producer gets a cut of every subsequent sale - has been happening across Europe in one particular very high value market for nearly a decade now. It's called droit de suite, and it's granted on art sold at auctions to make sure that impecunious artists get a cut of the multimillion resale values of their art. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_right [wikipedia.org] It's a pretty contentious issue, especially for us mercantile Brits.
    • Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2009, @06:20PM (#28216457)

      Even better analogy: You sell your apartment, then when the buyer sells you claim half the profit.

      • Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by interkin3tic (1469267) on Thursday June 04 2009, @07:30PM (#28217099)

        A modern game cost what? 15 millions on average? When was the last time you paid 15 millions for a game you played?

        The car manufacturing plant is a lot more than they sell the car for. Using your logic, we can see that you don't buy a car, you can drive it as a reqard for you giving money to the car manufacturer. When you sell the car, you act like a car manufacturer yourself. The problem is that you never made the car, you just use the work of someone else to make money. To me, the best word for this is normal.

        Your logic is so shoddy I suspect you're a troll. If they were only selling one game, then yes, you'd have to buy it for 15 million in order to not be a parasite, but they're selling more than that.

A little suffering is good for the soul. -- Kirk, "The Corbomite Maneuver", stardate 1514.0