Does the Wii Provide A "Watered-Down" Game Experience? 582
CNet is running a story inspired by comments from Ubisoft's Ben Mattes about how the Wii affects game development. When asked why there was no Wii version of Prince of Persia, Mattes said, "The reality is that from a technical standpoint, the Wii cannot do what we wanted the game to do. The AI of Elika was highly advanced and required a lot of processing power; the world size and dynamic loading, the draw distance, the number of polygons in the characters... If we had done a Wii version, it would have been toned down, probably linear; it wouldn't have been an open-world game, and so it would have been a very different experience." The article goes on to look at a number of Wii games that are stripped-down versions of their Xbox 360 or PS3 counterparts. Of course, part of the Wii's drawing power is that it's much simpler than the other systems, and has brought casual gaming to millions more people than it would have otherwise. The question remains, as Kotaku points out, whether the Wii's audience will persist after the other systems match its casual-gaming capabilities.
Re:Give me a break (Score:5, Interesting)
Well the worst thing about his complaints is, the new Prince of Persia wasn't a good a very good game. Elika's AI may have been complicated, but it wasn't reflected in the end-product by her doing anything very cool. The "open-world" concept of the game was pretty weak-- getting from point A to point B was linear, but you were just given the option of whether you wanted to go from point A to point B, or from point A to point C.
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was a better game, and it was linear. The girl sidekick from that game was just as good as Elika. It didn't require particularly high-end hardware.
Re:Bollocks (Score:5, Interesting)
The Jak and Daxter games on the PS2 used dynamic loading, and the PS2 hardware was clearly inferior to the Wii in every respect.
And check out the reviews of GTA Chinatown Wars for DS, Rockstar clearly put the effort in to think about what the DS could do best, and build the game around that.
Then again, the Prince of Persia team have a history of crappy ports. Their last Wii title was a horrible port with a frame rate that dropped through the floor during the final battle, even though it was derived from the PS2 game.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:4, Interesting)
The Wii attach rate is abysmal and for real gamers games it's even worse. Yeah, 20 million people bought a Wii, but about 15 million of them just played Wii sports then forgot about it.
The Wii market might be much larger in sheer numbers, but the expected sales for a game like PoP is probably smaller.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't understand why people are so rabidly defending the Wii as "fun" and "innovative".
I grew up playing Mario and Zelda games (and happened to be burned by Nintendo's lack of consumer compassion and their hate for backwards-compatability). But that's mostly what they put out: in-house proprietary sequels.
There's nothing innovative about Mario anymore; that you can run in three dimensions instead of two doesn't change the game. It just puts a new look on the game. And that look would be better with more powerful hardware.
Maybe I think of something different when I look for "innovation", like original stories that aren't on their eight iteration of saving the Triforce (Hello, Okami), or fun gameplay that sucks me in without locking me into the same characters that passed nostalgia and hit nausea for me (when I really want to platform, I turn to LittleBigPlanet now).
Sure, maybe not everyone wants to play GTA or InFamous or Street Fighter, but Nintendo is alienating gamers in order to cater to a broader audience...this doesn't really help gamers at all, nor does it help the video game industry. If "the future" of gaming is less Heavy Rain and more Mario Party or iPhone App Store then I'm going to stop supporting Nintendo and start supporting developers and publishers who push the envelope in terms of what I expect and what I can do. The Wii doesn't really offer me that experience.
Re:News Flash. (Score:3, Interesting)
I have to admit that the idea has great appeal. If you had a large enough display device (like a big honkin' HDTV, or a projector with at least SVGA res) you could very satisfyingly draw lasso lines around things. Actually, if there were ever going to be another attempt at getting Black and White right, it would be a great platform to run it on.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
no, it's not lack of design creativity.. it's that the PS3 or xbox allow much more detailed, larger worlds, that the wii simply can't handle. I'm going to pick up the latest Tomb Raider on the PS3 to compre it to the Wii version, which was very disappointing. And I played the GC tomb raiders on the wii and had a great time.. i think the wii just couldn't handle the larger, more complex world the newest tomb raider is played in.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:News at 11 (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm using my Wii more and more. No More Heroes was a hoot. I'm playing the latest Tales Of Symphonia, and there's some interesting RPG and adventure games coming out as seen at E3 (Fragile and that 2D one by the Odin Sphere team... the name escapes me). I even rediscovered point and click fun with the Strong Bad games on WiiWare. I'll be renting Deadly Creatures and Madworld soon. Heck, there's even a few GameCube games (playing GC games is an undersung feature of the Wii, IMHO) I missed that I might rent. I never played Pikmin or Eternal Darkness.
But I was patient. It was obvious the Wii's success blindsided a lot of the bigger developers. I figured it would take a couple years for good games to start showing up, and they are starting appear.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Silk Purse (Score:5, Interesting)
Your frame of reference is obviously that of a "normal video game player." You are not the Wii's target market, and thus you feel understandably disenfranchised. I just cannot manage to see how appealing to the "mainstream market" ie normal, everyday people, reflects a failure in development. I also think that you drastically underestimate the number of shitty games for the PS2. There were close to 2500 games made for that console, and if you think the average quality was that great, then you have never been in a gamestop bargain bin.
In writing this comment, I am aware of the fact that there are not as many top-quality wii games as I would have hoped or expected at this stage of development. However, I think that the games designed specifically for the wii are fantastic, and I blame the deficit partially on poor ports and the cost barriers involved when companies decide to develop a title. After all, if you were a developer, would it appear to be more cost effective to program for joysticks and buttons than a novel motion-capture interface? Of course, because the title can be sold to PS3 and Xbox and PC users alike, and your staff likely has more experience in programing for these interfaces.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:5, Interesting)
So... a reason for NOT liking the Wii would be "my kids like the Wii"? Is it just me, or is that type of reasoning completely insane?
Errrr, no. I never actually even said I didn't like the Wii. I said it is not an activity I would pursue on my own. I actually like play-doh and coloring with my kids. I just wouldn't spend $250 plus a zillion dollars for peripherals on a toddler's toy.
My statement was a response to the original poster, whose point was something along the lines of "The Wii is so great it is simple enough for toddlers." My point was "Things that are simple enough for toddlers generally don't appeal to me on their own. That the Wii is simple is no more a plus than for play-doh or coloring books."
Re:Silk Purse (Score:3, Interesting)
I won't argue against the fact that the specs are inferior to other consoles (anyone who would is insane), nor that the developers are misunderstanding/disregarding the system, but:
Can you cite areas where it looked worse? I played many dozens of hours of the Gamecube version (it was a damn good looking game then), and I've put many dozens of hours in the Wii version; if anything, the Wii version has had slight enhancements for graphics.
GameCube Control - deserves its own top level. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's been mentioned above, in replies mostly, but one of the most overlooked things about the Wii is that it supports GameCube games, controls, and even memory cards!
There's no reason why they can't make Wii games that require a GameCube control, still being manufactured by 3rd parties and I have a feeling Nintendo still has the technology to make Wavebirds, maybe even versions that are Bluetooth or at minimum plug into the Wiimote. There's no reason they can't put a little Gamecube control pictogram on the front of a game package like they did with Zapper pictograms way back in the NES days.
I'm not rushing to pick up a Wii, I don't have any "modern" consoles unless you count portables and the PS2. Part of the reason I'm not rushing to a Wii is I really don't want to swing the fool control around. I've played it, I've liked some of the games, but even on my DS I tend to chose titles that don't overly require use of the touch screen. I like traditional input methods. While I was playing Mario Kart for the Wii I was actually longing for my Gamecube Control. I'm not saying the Wiimote/nunchuck don't have their place, I would love to play a lightsabre/sword game with that setup (if they ever actually make a really good one) but overall the Wii will remain the casual gamer system in my mind until they embrace tradition on a few titles. I don't think they'll lose their casual gamers if they make a few hardcore games to, especially if they're plainly marked as such. It may actually improve their market share a bit. As it stands I would rather have a PS3 than a Wii, and I'm a long time Nintendo fan.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:2, Interesting)
When she goes to bed, Scrabble, Monopoly, Chess, Cribbage, and Go still come out.
I prefer games that are deeper than a four year old can understand. And as for dexterity... most also have trouble keeping food on their fork. The fact that a four year old can beat anyone at Mario Kart means it doesn't require a whole lot of dexterity or thought.
Now, this isn't necessarily bad. Neither does beer pong. It simply isn't my preference.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually while some of your points are correct, I think the real translation of what Ben said was: "We didn't consider the different parameters of the Wii in our initial design, and when it came to porting the game over, we found we were too tied in by the assumptions we had made at the beginning of the design phase."
Ubisoft makes big fat games, that do big fat stuff. All of their AAA titles push the envelope, at least technically, and those come at a cost. With that design mentality its not a surprise that some of their titles don't translate to the Wii. On the other hand they have specifically made those titles for "Gamers", and "Gamers" wouldn't play those titles on the Wii anyways. And it's credit, Ubi has made a large effort to make games for the Wii, but they have all been specifically targeted for that platform (Red Steel, Rayman Ravin Rabbids, etc).
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Gee, what a crazy idea, to play a game and have fun?! Remember the NES and it's two buttons that anyone could figure out? Didn't have a memorize what L1 R1 L2 R2 X O triangle square up down left or right did, just move and press A or B. ta-da! Simple and fun.
Nintendo has returned to it's roots. The Wii is the NES of the 21st century. My parents can golf, play tennis, bowl or play baseball on the Wii and be good at it without pressing O at exactly the right moment.
See they should have a "I'm a Wii... and I'm a PS3/Xbox360" and on the PS3/Xbox360 there's a guy showing someone how to play a game "press X.... NOW!.... no no that was too late, here now press O to wind up again and...." and with the Wii he just walks up and says "here", handing him the controller, and he immediately hits a homerun.
This publisher is exactly why the Wii is selling well and the other consoles are struggling.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
The metacritic scores reflect more on the inadequacy of gaming publications reviewing games not meant for the veteran gamer audience. There is a word-of-mouth network between Wii owners, the sales tend to be fairly concentrated on the system which suggests that people don't just buy stuff randomly but the pattern follows more what the average joe wants from a game, not what a gaming publication wants. Two of the top selling WiiWare games are My Aquarium and Texas Hold'em Tournament, both got panned by reviews but both do their job and the job they do is in high demand. There are claims that the Wii games market is based much more on satisfying pre-existing demands of the customer than the other markets (which use hype to generate a demand for the games on offer). Noone ever says "hey, I'd love to play a game where you're a big bulky space marine crouching behind chest-high walls" but they bought GoW because once the game was shown to them they liked it. The Wii's current biggest sellers are mostly things that people wanted before they were made even though they may not have expected them to be available on a videogame system. Maybe it's harder to show games to Wii owners so they can decide whether they like it.
On the other hand we have little information about how plain sequels to last gen games would sell on the Wii, the last gen genres tend to be represented by wacky games (like Mad World, No More Heroes, Deadly Creatures, ...) which would be niche last gen too. I think The Conduit may be one of the few attempts at doing a conventional genre straight on the Wii instead of adding some twist that's not what people want. We'll have to see how it turns out.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem is, games are not about AI and flashy graphics, no matter how much money grubbing publishers want em to be. They're about friendly interaction with your peers. That's why more people use computers to play cards with each other than the latest flashy crap to come down the pipe.
That alone is why I really like games pre-PS2/GC/Xbox, I have not seen a recent console game have the storytelling power that those had.
Re:NOTHING wrong with working within constraints (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, but the 5% doing reviews that say the draw distance was abysmal and they couldn't see what was coming up heavily influence those other 80%. If you read a review that states the developer could have spent more time polishing the game with better models (polygon count or not) you'll likely pass up that game for one that they gave glowing reviews for.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Not just that, it changes the sales patterns. The traditional pattern is a sharp spike in the first 1-2 weeks and then a drop to near irrelevance, the Wii's pattern tends to grow over time. Many a publisher was freaked out by low first month sales for a game only to announce a sequel a year later because it turned out the game did sell a LOT as it kept selling for far longer than games used to.
Re:Give me a break (Score:3, Interesting)
There's plenty of "fun" stuff that can only be had on the Wii, and other stuff where the Wii has a palpable edge.
Let's start with games that can't be reproduced on other consoles without mangling their control scheme: Wii Sports, Trauma Centre, House of the Dead Overkill come to mind (though games like the latter typically include a dedicated lightgun).
Multi-platform games with well thought-out Wii control schemes are real value-add: Resident Evil 4 works great, Okami is pretty good, and from what I understand FIFA and PES use the pointer to great effect.
Then there are games that just use the motion sensor as a (fun!) gimmick -- these are easy enough to reproduce in some fashion or another. Mercury Meltdown Revolution is a good example of a well thought-out game based on the motion sensitivity of the controller that could be done on the Sixaxis just as easily. Mini-games like Raving Rabbits or Warioware, or any of the umpteen others are really just that, mini-games, and motion control is pure gimmick there.
Then there's the first/second party exclusives: Metroid and Zelda come to mind, as do the several Mario games (I'm partial to Mario Galaxy, but that's something else). These are not so much games at which the Wii excels as they are marketed only for the Wii, so they don't really count I guess...
Finally, there are games like Guitar Hero (I love Guitar Hero, btw). The control scheme is the same across all platforms, and I guess that, nominally, the Wii is the worst platform to run it on, as it would have better graphics on the 360 or the PS3 -- but does it actually matter? I'll accept that The Force Unleashed looks a lot better on the higher end consoles than on the Wii, and that it might influence the enjoyment of the game, but for Guitar Hero, all that matters is that the freaking fretboard is legible. The rest is just a distraction.
All in all, though, I find that what makes the Wii's controller truly great is not motion sensing, but the pointer. It's like having a gamepad and a mouse at the same time, and the games I feel best use the Wii's controller all capitalize on that (RE4, Trauma Center and Mario Galaxy spring to mind)
Re:A matter of how you look at it (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess you could flip the flamebait around and ask do PS3 and XBOX360 provide watered-down game experiences for offering games that depend on pretty graphics and not enjoyable gameplay.
Or you could look at the ratings for the games on all three consoles and realize the Wii's are the lowest. Worst graphics and worst lineup? Who could resist?
Then those ratings are out of touch with reality and are based on the wrong premises because the Wii has the most profitable numbers. So, if people keep on buying it, it is not perceived to be the worse, regardless of "ratings".
It might be the same thing that happens to Wolfram-Alpha, for example. The morons at Wired keep saying that despite its updates it is still not a good search engine and that it will never match Google blah blah. Never mind the fact that this has never been the stated goal, and that they are not even marketing it as a search engine but as a computational engine that calculates answers based on the knowledge it has inbuilt.
Re:does an iphone.... (Score:3, Interesting)
"If we make lazier games, no one will notice that they're not high def!"
Aside from that, Wii Bowling is a tech demo. Resident Evil and House of the Dead Overkill and Mario Kart would all look better in HD (720). But the console *CAN'T* do it, it's incapable.