5086301
story
Comments: 138 +- Games: Massive Bank Fraud In EVE Online on Friday July 03, @10:05PM
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicmoney.gif); width:84px; height:74px;
money
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicentertainment.gif); width:62px; height:44px;
entertainment
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicgames.gif); width:68px; height:77px;
games
djconrad was one of several readers to point out the latest major scandal in EVE Online, the space MMO notable for its large, player-driven economy and the entertaining stories it often generates. A player named Ricdic, chairman of a large in-game bank, decided to embezzle roughly 200 billion ISK (the game's currency). Ricdic exchanged the ISK for about $5,000 to pay off real-life debts. Massively has an in-depth write-up about how the theft affects the game and its players. Since the scandal became public, there's been a run on the virtual bank, and its executives are doing what they can to reassure people that it will continue to exist. Ricdic was banned, not for the embezzlement, but for trading 200 billion ISK for real currency, which is forbidden by EVE's EULA.
Related Stories
The distinction between true and false appears to become increasingly
blurred by... the pollution of the language.
-- Arne Tiselius
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.
Slow news day? (Score:4, Insightful)
It happened early June already [scrapheap-challenge.com], though it apparently took quite a while for it to propagate to the mainstream news.
Re:Slow news day? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Slow news day? (Score:5, Interesting)
Either way, I don't know why this is surprising except for one fact: That it didn't happen much, much sooner. That's what happens when there's no real world consequences for your behavior (or you think you can avoid them).
That's not surprising. It happened before and it will happen again.
EVE has a very rich history of large scale scams, reaching from investment scams like this one to long-planned infiltrations of alliances like the infamous heist [klaki.net] by GHSC (who incidentally ripped assets to the tune of 200ish billion ISK off one of the major alliances again just recently [eveonline.com]).
The only "surprising" and novel bit about this story is that he apparently/supposedly didn't do it for the e-fame or e-gain, but for RMTing the scammed ISK because of real life troubles, which was the reason for his subsequent banning.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The basic problem is that he was able to convert the in game currency into a real world currency.
plenty of people want to get ahead in MMOGs for some reason (maybe they just want to play with the higher end stuff, maybe they enjoy being "better" than others, whatever) but can't or don't want to put in the time that it takes (most MMOGs reward those who spend insane ammounts of time ingame) so they buy ingame currency off some site on the internet.
There really isn't much you can do to stop such activity othe
Re:Slow news day? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know why this is surprising except for one fact: That it didn't happen much, much sooner.
Because people are inherently honest. Dishonesty is an abnormality. Even in this case, it took $5,000 in immediate real life needs for this person to cause harm in a video game to a fictional economy, and the only punishment is that a few ones and zeroes got flipped around so they didn't like a few other ones and zeroes anymore. It's this very fact that pisses game theorists off to no end -- agents in the system continue to act completely irrationally (ie, to trust) when the rules clearly indicate every advantage for the "cheater" and next to no consequences.
Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works. Society is built on networks of trust -- most of our institutions and infrastructure that allow life to go on the way it does right now depends on the vast majority of people playing by the rules. Rules which, for the most part, are arbitrary. There are very few rules that are "naturally derived" -- For example, not murdering people is a naturally derived rule because we can't exactly make going extinct legal. O.o Traffic laws are, for the most part, arbitrary -- red means stop, green means go, drive on the left (or right), etc. But we'd never be able to use the shared public resource (the highway) without them.
Human beings are social creatures. In order to survive, we have to trust one another. Every social organizational structure is derived from this basic concept -- it simply varies in how we trust, to what degree, and to whom.
Parent
Re:Slow news day? (Score:5, Insightful)
Trust is inherently illogical and irrational and yet it works. Society is built on networks of trust -- most of our institutions and infrastructure that allow life to go on the way it does right now depends on the vast majority of people playing by the rules. Rules which, for the most part, are arbitrary. There are very few rules that are "naturally derived" -- For example, not murdering people is a naturally derived rule because we can't exactly make going extinct legal. O.o Traffic laws are, for the most part, arbitrary -- red means stop, green means go, drive on the left (or right), etc. But we'd never be able to use the shared public resource (the highway) without them.
Human beings are social creatures. In order to survive, we have to trust one another. Every social organizational structure is derived from this basic concept -- it simply varies in how we trust, to what degree, and to whom.
If you think about it from an evolutionary point of view, trust is an excellent adaptation for a social species. Being trusting is the sort of thing that might not work so well for a given individual but works out for the species in the long run. It's like cuteness. What's the evolutionary purpose of finding creatures with infantile features and proportions cute? Easy: it's so we don't murder our young. If those little darlings didn't worm their way into our hearts at first sight, it's for damn sure they wouldn't make it through the third night of random crying, feeding, and diaper changes.
Of course, it's always possible to push the boundaries of society to the point where people stop trusting. We're in danger of this very thing right now. I mean shit, there's a lot of trust involved in working for two weeks with the understanding that there will be a paycheck on payday! I've seen smaller companies so fucked up that the boss has to pay on a weekly, sometimes daily schedule because people don't trust him. We're seeing that in the economy at large as the expectations of the common citizen have become more and more cynical through time. Republicans exist to fuck the poor to death. Democrats exist to pretend to be an alternative to getting fucked to death and while they're taking no direct part in the rape, they're standing in the corner stroking their puds while the Republicans go to town.
Once that social contract is broken, all the scotch tape in the world won't put it back together again.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think about it from an evolutionary point of view, trust is an excellent adaptation for a social species. Being trusting is the sort of thing that might not work so well for a given individual but works out for the species in the long run.
Except evolution acts on individuals, not species. In order for trust to evolve, individuals must gain benefit from it.
It's like cuteness. What's the evolutionary purpose of finding creatures with infantile features and proportions cute? Easy: it's so we don't murder our young. If those little darlings didn't worm their way into our hearts at first sight, it's for damn sure they wouldn't make it through the third night of random crying, feeding, and diaper changes.
It's so we don't eat our own children, which would remove our genes from the population.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's true to a certain extent, but I would add a large caveat. People are honest when they know obeying the social norms will be rewarded, and there is a real chance of being caught or punished for their dishonesty. Most people don't steal, but if a situation like the article describes occurred in meatspace, people would be stealing like crazy.
The trust can't co-exist without strict societal rules that reward cooperation and discourage
Trust is still Important (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is, there IS actually no real consequence. What is the consequence? The account was banned. That is a consequence ... how? Sure, the average gamer would probably be a little shocked, a few years of his life down the drain, but someone whose goal is to con? He doesn't play anyway.
It's also not a safeguard against never doing it again. He could just hire someone to make an account for him.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a game about betraying, conning, etc. Only the RMT part was an issue at all, Eve is all about ripping others off ingame.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
But they don't appear interested in having real world laws used against the guy.
That's because he didn't break any real-world laws. He violated the terms of service for the game. All that means is that they won't let him play anymore. There's no law against taking real money in exchange for a minor data modification (setting a variable to 200,000,000) that's utterly inconsequential in real life.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Should it be illegal to scam people in the game ? As I understand it - this is part of the game, scamming people....
Then he broke the EULA - and they kicked him out of the game... Any real world consequences are not justifiable in my opinion.
What I don't really get is - why the buyer isn't kicked out as well... surely 200 billion ISK in EVE can't be that hard to trace... or do they have money laundering services there ? How on earth would they work in a log-all virtual world.
Re:Slow news day? (Score:4, Interesting)
CCP warns consistently that they track all ISK transfers and once they come down on an ISK-seller, all the money he ever traded is not only gone, but replaced by the same figure with a "minus" in front of it. If you bought a lot of cash it could mean you'd be bankrupt on that character.
I'm not sure how often CCP exactly does that kind of thing, but in this case they have a pretty good incentive to come down hard on the sellers and buyers.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
madoff has been sentenced and the trial is over..
people have gotten used to the spectacle of embezzlement and ponzi schemes, so we have to find another one.
Re:Slow news day? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because for EVE veterans a scam hardly qualifies as "news". ;)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
If it gets more people interested in the game who cares that Slashdot is a month behind the curve?
Nobody. I just felt like pointing it out.
Re:Slow news day? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Interesting and Boring at the Same Time (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time (Score:4, Interesting)
EVE continues to be an interesting study in politics and intrigue but I will forever fail to understand its appeal as an MMO. I've tried playing it - it totally does not appeal to me in any way, what-so-ever. It was about as dreadfully boring as a game could possibly be without being nothing at all. In my opinion. But, its political backstabbings and manipulations of its systems sure as hell generate some interesting stories... Intensely interesting and dreadfully boring at the same time.
Perversely enough, those are exactly the play mechanics they wanted to emulate.
MMORPG's are weird beasts. On one hand, it doesn't feel like an RPG because nobody is in character, nobody is playing according to the setting's fluff. It all feels like a bunch of game geeks dorking around on a video game. But on the other hand, these seemingly average, real-life people can be anything but. I'm not just talking about the mild-mannered high school mathlete who becomes a griefing dickhead when he gets online, I'm talking about the people who work out the elaborate con jobs. There was one massive screw-job that took over a year to plan and execute. You don't really know anyone.
I played EVE briefly and am firmly in the carebear camp. If a game is any bit more complicated and involved than an FPS deathmatch, I'd prefer to be playing as a team rather than in competition.
The time it takes to put into a game like this, to get anywhere, to pull off these virtual coups, it's mental illness in a can. We're talking obsessive behavior, unhealthy commitments of time not seen outside of stalker/murderer ex's and the terminally ambitious.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"Metagaming" is thicker in EvE than in any other game out there, mostly because your chance to impact the playing experience of other players has never been higher. EvE is a social-economic experiment of sorts, a lot of the experience you have depends on the interaction with other players.
Of course, if you're not into that, there are few MMOs out there that could be any more boring.
Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time (Score:4, Funny)
Anyway, once you get into it its actually a great game. Perhaps you have to have liked playing Elite back in the day to appreciate it. It's a massively online version Elite. Aside from all fighting you also get the politicking, scams, crimes and so forth that make the game world hugely dynamic.
Parent
Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time (Score:5, Funny)
I achieved my goal of not playing it anymore. I didn't achieve my goal of figuring out why I wanted to play it in the first place.
Parent
Re:Interesting and Boring at the Same Time (Score:4, Interesting)
Isn't the idea of a game to escape reality, not have it mimic so flawlessly the errors that exist in reality so heavily?
That, or the fact that you can be a bastard as much as you like. I no longer play Eve, but it was great fun camping at a gate waiting for a good mark to blackmail. Oh, I could tell you stories of people that came after me with a bigger ship, and how I'd blackmail them again, or how they would bring more friends than I could bring and I'd have to run and wait until they got bored with chasing me around the nearby systems.I could tell you about how I once infiltrated a small corp with an alt and cleaned out their hangars, and the smile on my face as I sold some of it back to them without them realizing. Oh, I escaped reality alright. I got to be that very person you should never trust, and I've had so many insults thrown at me that it still makes me smile whenever I fondly reminisce those days;
That was the fun in Eve for me. Some like to build large empires to wage war and play politics, others like to spend their time gambling on the markets, and some just like the idea of wearing an eyepatch shouting "ARRRRRRRR".
Eve is one of the few games where I often reconsider playing it again, but it just wouldn't be the same without the gang of friends I used to annoy people with. That, and the considerable amount of time it would take away from other hobbies I've picked up since.
Parent
Good advert for Eve... (Score:5, Interesting)
You might think I'm being sarcastic but really. Each time I read one of these stories about an Eve problem I only want to play the game more. I've played other MMOs and having full banking institutions, investments, and companies exist is within its self very rare.
I mean all games have some kind of monetary system and by extension a way to trade money for goods. But very few are able to recreate the real world so closely.
Take for example World of Warcraft, you have gold, and you can trade. But you'd never have real businesses exist because the game just doesn't work that way, let alone banks.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Aye, i get tired of boarding trade vessels and ransoming the crew's lives for cash to pay off my debts. I do enough of that in the real world!
Re: (Score:2)
Aye, i get tired of boarding trade vessels and ransoming the crew's lives for cash to pay off my debts. I do enough of that in the real world!
Am I the only one that had to think about Somalian pirates peacefully mining in High Sec after reading this post? :)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Good advert for Eve... (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason eve fails is BECAUSE it replicates the real world too well. When you "play" Eve, one gets the distinct feeling that one is actually not playing a game but doing work. The feeling of the drudgery of work.
Maybe CCP will learn from the financial crisis that a utopian hypercapitalist world is not only a fantasy world, it's not all that fun.
I have to disagree on that one. EVE is what you make out of it. You can do tedious and boring stuff like run an industrial enterprise (aka Spreadsheets Online), mine asteroids (mindnumbingly boring), do PVE (which is admittedly terrible in EVE) combat or you can go the PVP route (be it as a pirate, mercenary, grunt in one of the major power blocks or declaring war on carebear corps for "protection money") and blow up other people's pixels leading to tasty bitter tears for your drinking pleasure (complete loss of whatever you're flying when you get blown up can lead to amusing smack talk).
Or you could do something completely different and do the social engineering and scamming (completely accepted by the TOS as long as you stay within game mechanics) that keeps EVE in the mainstream news.
It's a sandbox, there should be something in it for you to have fun with as long as you can befriend the general gameplay, setting and the UI (which is constantly improving) surrounding it.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Eve is, for the most part, a giant sandbox. If you like the idea of a space based MMO, but you find Eve to be all work and no play, then quite honestly you're doing it wrong.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In my head: (Score:3, Interesting)
Kneejerk response #1: This jerk is why we're all going to have to pay income taxes on our MMO loot someday.
Kneejerk response #2: Finally! The solution to the health care crisis...Gold Sellers!
Kneejerk response #3: You're only jealous you didn't think of it first.
-----------------
My Final Conclusion: I just hope his kid is getting better.
A Bit of a Puzzle (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd like to take a minute to address concerns over EBANK's solvency, that is, it's ability to pay out withdraws. As I mentioned before, EBANK moved a large portion of it's assets into cash and we've been merrily burning through it today as people have drawn their money out in concern. We also haven't had deposits coming in - so the money is only flowing in one direction....out.
That's ok.
We still have enough cash to handle withdraws and as of the time I write this; withdraws have been actioned. I would also like to point out a few other things; we have had many persons asking when they can deposit money again, as a show of support and to provide EBANK with an infusion of cash. On top of this, we have had private loans offered to us totaling 100 billion and if we really have to....we still have the ability to issue a Bond or if really required, we may finally launch an IPO.
Why am I pointing this out? I want to provide assurances to our customers that your money is safe with EBANK. We are solvent and continue to build liquidity even in this challenging environment. Even if we have a solvency issue, we have many options at hand to address that should it arise.
Again, thank you to those who have expressed support.
I don't play Eve anymore (purely out of regard for personal time management), but I've read many statements like the above of business dealings in the game (not necessarily about scams, just straight business). What I'm always struck by is that if you're capable of finagling all these things in the game, what's stopping you from doing it in real life?
When this thought first struck me, I was making plans to run an in game POS as a business, and had produced a full business plan and profit analysis spreadsheet. Which is exactly what you'd expect to need at the start of a real business.
Supply and demand, buy low/sell high, and negotiations are all key skills in running a business in the game, but no more or less than they are in real life. Real life has a lot more government regulation (CCP takes a largely hands-off policy as long as you're not trading ISK for real money), but as long as you can navigate that, you'll have the skills you need for a real business, too.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People in real life are a little less likely to just hand over their money to joe blow. Which is why banks are chartered and insured by the government.
As far as opening regular businesses, absolutely.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
EVE moves faster than real life, being a game, getting a basic income is easy through a variety of means (mining, piracy, manufacturing, bounties and, in this case trade). Proper management of capital can trivially have returns of 10% a month with almost no work or 100% in a few days on the market with a lot of work.
This is coupled with high risk, but it's in game risk. Even wiped back to 0 you can recover back to 'normal player' levels radiatively quickly. If you took the kind of risks that are normal in g
Obvious.... (Score:4, Funny)
What I'm always struck by is that if you're capable of finagling all these things in the game, what's stopping you from doing it in real life?
Body odor.
Parent
They need an EDIC. (Score:2)
Of course, to keep it from going broke immediately, there would have to be some kind of in-game sanctions against cheaters and embezzlers! Does EVE have a "jail"???
Madoff strikes again! (Score:2)
Already happened in Second Life (Score:2)
Remember the big flap with Second Life banks when Ginko Financial failed? [wired.com] They had a real bank run in Second Life, with avatars crowding branches demanding their money.
Linden Labs then banned all "banks" in Second Life unless operated by a regulated real-world financial institution. A few real banks established a presence in Second Life, but most (maybe all) have given it up by now.
The problem with banks in a virtual world is that what banks really do is sell loans. It's hard to collect from an avata
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Loans are EBANK's bread and butter. The loans are mostly collateralized (there are in game mechanisms for locking resources so they can still be used by a third party but can't be moved) or guaranteed by a trusted party (effectively using their reputation as collateral).
Added to the compartmentalized capital management they have, and no one person can kill the bank, take 200bn? Sure, but that isn't death, just a really big chunk of profit...
Banning is a reward (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Just you wait... (Score:5, Funny)
Both. He works for Goldman Sachs...
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
CCP already has something like that in place in EVE Online.
You can buy a GTC (Game Time Code) and directly sell it to other players for ISK (ingame money) through a secured official system on the website or convert it into a in-game tradeable item called Pilot License EXtension (PLEX) [eveonline.com].
Re: (Score:2)
I thought EVE already allowed you to convert ISK into USD through them at a fixed exchange rate...
Re: (Score:2)
I thought EVE already allowed you to convert ISK into USD through them at a fixed exchange rate...
Nope. Second Life does that, AFAIK.
Re:Maybe these companies will wake up some day (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Maybe these companies will wake up some day (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, but their graphics sure sucks and blows at the same time. At best you get some vector graphics... pfff, get with the times, morons!
'sides, last time I went for PvP I got pummeled by GMs and locked outta the server. Effing carebears.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And of course, people always tell the truth on web registration forms
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not sure who the bigger fool is, the guy that embezzled all the in-game money or the schmuck that paid $5000 of real money for it.
Try as I might, I can't find a single thing the embezzler did that makes him a fool. He ditched a real-life time and money sink of a habit (EVE Online) and managed to trade it for real-life money and pay some bills. Might qualify slightly as "jerk", but not even a little as "fool".