NCSoft Drops GameGuard From Western Launch of Aion 104
chalkyj writes "NCSoft has announced that they will be dropping GameGuard from the western launch of their upcoming MMORPG, Aion. The flawed Korean anti-cheat software has been heavily criticized for employing root-kit like techniques and conflicting with many hardware configurations. The final straw is thought to have been the stability issues experienced by players during open beta and the community outcry it caused. The decision makes Aion, which recently announced over 400,000 western pre-orders, a real contender in the western MMO market."
That's nice (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:That's nice (Score:5, Interesting)
Nice thing about MMO's is that the companies actually *have to* listen to customers or they will stop playing and paying. Blizzard alone has 2500+ people working on customer support related jobs.
You of course cant listen to or adjust the game by every single person, but you have to listen to the larger group. This is true even more because Aion is NCSoft's try to create real competitor in the western markets.
And the game does look good with its Crytek Engine and with some of the gameplay mechanics. I haven't played it myself, but some friends have been playing the beta and say it is quite fun. However I will wait for more reviews first, as I cant concentrate on WoW that much either. What I'm worried about is that it will have lots of grinding like WoW, specially because thats even more common in Asian games.
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"Blizzard has 2500+ people working POORLY in customer support related jobs. They make decisions based on hearsay and ban without even doing a thorough investigation into the matters at hand. It's beginning to cost them in playerbase (I know, they still have a lot of players) just as it did with SOE and EverQuest when WoW was initially released."
I can confirm that. Bought a copy of Diablo II LOD about a month ago, played for two weeks, tried to log on again today, and found out my CD key's been disabled/bann
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I actually read all of those support pages and wrote a few e-mails to Blizzard before coming here to complain ;)...
As for the comment about the CD key generators - are you sure? Are companies actually dumb enough to generate their keys with such an easily duplicated algorithm? I find that a bit hard to believe.
As far as I can tell, Blizzard screwed up.
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Nope. They are obviously all generated on server-side, so theres no cd key generators. However, there are lots of malware that claim to be "WoW cd key generators" that just steal accounts for their owners.
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Actually, the key generators for Diablo 2 are a mix of both - real and malware. Groups like Razor1911 cracked that many moons ago, and it's never been fixed by Blizzard. Why should they bother anyhow, the game is 'ancient' in software years. You should have seen the havoc caused when people were buying the Diablo Battlepack when it was first new and finding their legit keys banned right off the bat - because they used the same system for the 'new' Battlepack as they did for the original Diablo 2/LOD. THAT h
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I hear you. But you're way behind on current events! If you want the best DPS class, roll a retribution paladin!
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Any real evidence behind this assertion, or are you just basing this on, well, hearsay? I've played the game since launch, and ALL of the bans & suspensions that I have seen happen have all been more than merited by the players' conduct. So unless you have some sort of evidence or even an anecdote that might support this claim, this sounds like an angry, bitter rant from someone who got banned/suspended, or had a friend get banned/suspended for good reason. Given said angry rant, I would imagine that it was well deserved. :)
I was on the forums one day and saw a post about "sex toys." I clicked to view the post and it was rather nasty. I replied to the post, simply saying; "This will probably get you banned for sexual harassment and various other reasons." I then left for work. When I came home, I tried to log back into the forums (I used to post helpful information for people, true story) and a message saying - "You have been banned from the forums for the following reasons: Making threats, demeaning someone for their sexual
Re:That's nice (Score:4, Interesting)
Blizzard has 2500+ people working POORLY in customer support related jobs. They make decisions based on hearsay and ban without even doing a thorough investigation into the matters at hand. It's beginning to cost them in playerbase.
The few times I've had to contact GMs, the experience has been uniformly positive. And I know of a number of people who were hacked and had their stuff ripped off. Each of them got their gear back in a few days. I don't know of anyone leaving the game due to customer service. I played Everquest for years, and WoW CS is head and shoulders above SoE.
Now take that above and toss nerfs into the mix. Not just item nerfs or class nerfs, but CONTENT nerfs. Making "epic" raid encounters so trivial that almost any casual guild with all green gear and ventrilo can take out most of the upper-tier content.
I used to be upset about reducing the difficulty of content. However, it's actually a really good move on Blizzard's part. Unless they do stuff like that, the game becomes a filter where fewer and fewer players get to see the content. Once the hard core "uber" players have seen some content, what's the problem with easing the encounters so other players can see it?
I mostly did PvP with my rogue and not to float my own boat, but I was good at it. Then some warlock made a video that showed his poor class playing ability and how rogues were somehow so uber they needed to be nerfed to Hell and back. It got to the point where every PvP nerf they gave me hurt me in PvE high-end raiding content. Even with tier 7+ gear it was hard to do what a rogue SHOULD do - damage things better than the tank at least.
So they nerfed your class and then you got pissed off and decided to stop playing. Well, guess what, every MMO is going to need rebalancing, and that may include nerfs. I was seriously annoyed when they nerfed fear ward on my priest, but that's just the way it goes.
Yes, I am bitter toward WoW and Blizzard. In fact, I hope WoW dies a horribly, slow burning death
It's a game, it's not worth getting that pissed off about. Play a different game. Go outside and see the ball of yellow light in the sky.
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>>So they nerfed your class and then you got pissed off and decided to stop playing.
Thanks to this thread, it reminded me to cancel my account. 50 DK nerfs was enough for me. Thanks! =)
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DK nerfs???? I started a DK a month or two ago to play with some friends and after leveling a priest and a hunter to 80 and a rogue to 70, the DK was so overpowered it was ridiculous. If the DK is nerfed now, it must have been insanely powerful before. If "DK nerfs" are why you are quitting, you just need a game with an "I win" button.
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Now take that above and toss nerfs into the mix. Not just item nerfs or class nerfs, but CONTENT nerfs. Making "epic" raid encounters so trivial that almost any casual guild with all green gear and ventrilo can take out most of the upper-tier content. Then mix that all together with a healthy dose of balancing classes mostly around PvP, thereby hurting PvE and you have nothing but a foul tasting mix of crap left.
Yeah - it's awesome. Everyone gets a chance to experience all this content Blizzard has created. It's no longer some private club for the elite. I'm sure it makes hanging around outside the bank in your matched gear a lot less fun when some casual walks by in the same kit on their way to doing something other than hanging around outside the bank. But hey - the elitist's lost is everyone else's gain. And by definition - that's a gain for a lot more people.
Blizzard has been GIVEN 4 years of my money - fo
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But the idiots are apparently the ones who pay the bills, so they get what they want. What's wrong with that?
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Actually, no...
We will however continue to pursue ways to effectively utilize GameGuard within Aion in the future.
So once you've payed for the game, they'll bring it back.
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Yeah, when I wasn't able to run the game at the lowest settings in the open beta when I beat the recommended settings by quite a bit, the reply was basically "yeah, this is a game guard problem", I was thinking that I wouldn't pick up Aion. No point in buying a game you can't run (when you beat the crap out of the requirements), but now I will probably pick it up.
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Awesome (Score:4, Interesting)
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Now if they promise not to 'include it' in future patches that would be swell. I might actually considering trying it.
Yeah, that really stopped people from buying World of Warcraft.
Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
Except that Blizzard has made their own DRM/antihack software invisible to almost all of their players, and that's the important difference. Anecdotally, I've never met anyone who was unable to play because of it. I've met several unwilling to play because of a healthy paranoia about spyware, but even as spyware it's quite technically competent.
Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
Now if they promise not to 'include it' in future patches that would be swell. I might actually considering trying it.
Yeah, that really stopped people from buying World of Warcraft.
Notice that the WoW Warden is much less intrusive than GameGuard (it even allows for playing WoW on Linux using wine, which means it is very much standards compliant). Big difference here.
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The difference being that blizzard's warden actually works properly. Gameguard is a buggy, ineffective piece of crap. It gets rebroken within days (if not hours) of being updated and causes frequent BSODs when it screws up.
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I talked to one of the guys who maintains warden at last years blizzcon - he said its main purpose is to detect people using well known hacks/cheats (its not even a rootkit). That the vast majority of their policing effort is based off server side reports, user reports and gm efforts.
Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
No, they basically say the exact opposite.
The entirety of the relevant text from The Full Article:
After analyzing our open beta test results Aion will not feature GameGuard at launch. We will however continue to pursue ways to effectively utilize GameGuard within Aion in the future. Right now we're focused on providing players with the best possible Aion experience.
Essentially, they're saying that the implementation is flawed, not the concept.
-- 77IM
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I hope they work with GameGuard to make their system less invasive. Some anticheat protection is needed in online games, just to stop the kiddies getting hacks and ruining the game for every one. Those who make private hacks will always know their way around, but on the other hand they also know how to use them and wont ruin the game for everyone (for leveling or fishing or whatever - but they wont be running around killing people with hacks for fun, because they know that'll get them banned by gamemasters)
Re:Awesome (Score:5, Interesting)
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Sure, and that protection should be "design your server on the basis that every client is a bot". Every one of these dumbfuck companies makes the same fundamental mistake - trusting the client - and even outfits that commit to burning resources playing an never ending game of Whack The Hack always lag behind the exploits [mmowned.com].
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They aren't trusting the clients just for fun. Current technology has to put lots of things on the client so it works good. I surely hope this will, and probably does, change in the future but currently it's not applicable.
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This is Korea after all (Score:1, Informative)
In Korea this is perfectly acceptible. Their idea of "security" online is that the site or app needs a special Windows application installed to provide that security. This has caused a culture where just clicking on "accept" whenever an ActiveX control wants to install itself. No wonder they are the number one nation when it comes to botnet participants.
As an example: Here is the main web page of one of the larger banks in Korea: http://www.kdb.co.kr/
Please do try to even see their front page without instal
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Just don't get it through Steam, because the Steam version is dead on arrival. Doesn't work. I'm re-downloading the game directly from NCsoft and hoping that my CD-key for the game is not somehow tied to Steam.
Poor Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Poor Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not DRM.
It has nothing to do with DRM.
It was used previously in FreeToPlay games like 2moons to prevent cheating via game hacks.
It failed utterly in that regard and was dropped.
If Aion was relying on it as an anti hack measure - and "may introduce it later" - the game is already doomed.
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I agree. Seems people just like to throw "DRM" word around because of its bad image here on slashdot.
GameGuard is anticheating software that protects the game from various hacking tools and methods same way that PunkBuster and VAC are. It's just a lot more invasive and is mainly used in Asian games.
WoW and other gamers are quite easy to make hacking tools to too, but players reporting cheaters to gamemasters and the fact one account costs whole new game limits it goodly.
Re:Poor Summary (Score:4, Interesting)
WoW and other gamers are quite easy to make hacking tools to too, but players reporting cheaters to gamemasters and the fact one account costs whole new game limits it goodly.
WoW also has Warden to detect cheating programs and bots. I don't know how effective it is, but unlike some other anti-cheat programs, it shuts off when WoW does, and it doesn't stay on the system if you were to uninstall WoW.
It's also been reported that Blizzard is suspending accounts that are played on machines that they detect have spyware on for 24 hours. It's started happening when they began collecting "Non-identifiable system information" again. They don't won't suspend the account though if you have an authenticator attached to your account.
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It's also been reported that Blizzard is suspending accounts that are played on machines that they detect have spyware on for 24 hours. It's started happening when they began collecting "Non-identifiable system information" again. They don't won't suspend the account though if you have an authenticator attached to your account.
What I find especially interesting is that initial reports claim Blizzard will not tell the customer what Warden found. Warden reports a keylogger - you're disabled for your own protection to give you a chance to clean up your system before gold sellers liquidate all your (and your guild bank's) gear. Good luck.
The big question is why not note what was found? I'm wondering if this reveals that Warden truely does not report any sort of details at all about what it's crawling. My guess is that they added
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Seems people just like to throw "DRM" word around because of its bad image here on slashdot.
Anti-cheat software, however, employs similar tactics and has similar effects. Example: Blizzard's Warden checks for certain programs running in the background. SecuROM does the same thing. Only difference is, SecuROM doesn't like DaemonTools, while Warden probably cares more about Glider (if it still exists).
The biggest difference between DRM and anti-cheat in general is motivation -- legitimate players actually do benefit, much more directly, if the anti-cheat software works, whereas if DRM could ever wor
better example (Score:2)
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I wouldn't accept a rootkit from my bank to do my online banking, why the hell would I accept a rootkit for playing a freaking video game?
I hope you understand the technical differences between online banking and an online multiplayer game. Because of latency, internet connections, servers still not as capable and so on, its still not possible to let the server control process everything. For example player movements are not send to the server, but only their x,y coordinates. Then server doesn't need to calculate everything, but client can handle it. On the other hand, server can still make some calculations based on movement speed (I think I
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but does nothing to stop the hundreds of chinese robots from ruining the game. Gamegaurd doesn't work at all in this respect. Both Maple Story, and Mabinogi have it, and it does absolutely nothing to stop the most damaging from happening.
Here's where MMO's really need to change:
Keep a copy on the server and the client of the player state. Neighboring players also keep a copy of their own state. When anything happens, movement, battle, poses, etc, the server conducts the dice roll, and sends everyone the res
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The client will still be responsible for creating movement data (for example) and sending that to the server and the other clients, everyone will see what the cheater wants rather than what should actually happen. Roughly equivalent to weighted dice in your example.
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If the program rootkits your system and prevents you from running certain software... well that sounds like DRM to me. I'd be happy to use a different term if you have something that's more accurate while conveying the same information.
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Bingo. If they trust the client - which they apparently do - then the game is Epic level fucked from the get-go.
At this point, the best outcome they can hope for is that the game is so unpopular that nobody bothers owning the client. Talk about lose-lose.
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this might be completely stupid but.... why not build the anti cheap system into the game instead of installing a global rootkit that can impact the performance of a computer while the game is not in use.
or maybe these mmorpgs are relying to much on your cpu. Only way one should be able to cheap in a well built game is a bot. Bots can often be detected based on how they act and the amount of time they are logged on. So you can also catch bots if your smart enough with statistics
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What you mean like warden? It looks for hooks, but doesn't root. And operates from within the game.
Re:Rootkitting is a-okay for cheat protection (Score:4, Insightful)
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But if upper end players are failing the bot tests (determined to be a bot, by some process), then maybe that'd be okay - just move them over to a server with other upper-end players and, yes, those bots. They've clearly gotten too good for mere mortals anyway, might as well let them brag about how they pwned the latest aimbot? :)
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You clearly know nothing about MMO design. You have to trust the client for many things, or the game will be unresponsive or unplayable. Anti-cheating software is absolutely necessary.
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Near as I can tell, EVE and WoW both don't trust the client AT ALL except for entering in commands to the UI. If there's latency between me and the server, every action in the game is delayed accordingly. Picking up items, moving them in my bags, equipping, buying & selling, any attacks and even my true position in the world is all verified on the server before it really shows up on my end.
The only thing anti cheating software does in a properly designed MMO is checking for a poor dumb human to be the o
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And even with that little trust WoW still has teleport hacks and people mining from under the world.
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Actually, WoW does all player motion on the client, which is why speedhacks and flyhacks and all other sort of movement hacks work. It's been a recurring problem for them with regards to cheat protection - as far as anyone can tell, the WoW servers do absolutely no position verification of any sort, and people can fly around at supersonic speed for quite a while before the GMs catch on.
EVE does indeed bounce every command off the server - the client is little more than a dumb terminal (with, admittedly, a c
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You clearly know nothing about MMO design. You have to trust the client for many things, or the game will be unresponsive or unplayable. Anti-cheating software is absolutely necessary.
I'm a professional game programmer, currently working on an MMO. Please believe me when I say, you trust the client with NOTHING. You allow the game to render the world, play sounds, and process input which is then send to the server for validation and processing. You only send the client what it absolutely has to know in order to render the world, and nothing else.
Many people mistakenly think that the client is responsible for movement. This is not the case (unless the developers are unbelievably incom
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Wrong.
A game that needs to prevent cheating on the client side rather is just broken by design.
Just make the server check each action requested by any client is valid according to the game rules. That's not nearly as expensive as people like to believe, assuming the developers knew a bit about algorithmics.
Any word on Exteel? (Score:3, Interesting)
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What does requiring an user account and illegitimate copies have to do with an *anticheat* program?
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absolutely nothing
He saw the letters DRM in someone's post and his brain crashed
GameGuard doesn't cause any problems (Score:5, Funny)
I was in the open beta (hey, free game!) and I think the accusation that GameGuard introduces security vulnerabilities into your system, which linger after you uninstall it, are an exaggeration.
No-one wants to hack my desktop, anyway.Being well-endowed is the biggest gift the nature can give to a man. You are ashamed to take shower in public pools and gyms because of your tiny pecker? Now you can leave all your inhibitions behind as we know how to help you enlarge your instrument. Widest selection of desire lifters for men and women! We sell products for making your nights perfect!~
examples (Score:1)
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They're even easier to kill.
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And GunBound - wanted to try it again after having played several years ago...GameGuard made my system immediately BSOD and reboot every single time I tried to start the game.
From the TFA (Score:1)
AION LAUNCH VERSION!
September 17, 2009 4:34 PM
Greetings!
As we draw closer to tomorrow I wanted to give everyone a brief update on the progress of our live version. We are excited to announce that we will be serving out the final update for you to patch within the next few hours. You will be able to use this version for both our Preselection and our Head Start. We are very excited with our final product and think that you will be as well! Below are the release notes for the patch you will see later today:
- A
Wine? (Score:1)
Gameguard Problems (Score:2)
I did not like that, especially when I've ran games before that used Gameguard and that action wasn't necessary with them.
I don't mind the idea of Gameguard, I just don't like it's implementation and lack of effectiveness.
(Especially when it won't play nice with my security.)
Preorders not an indication of MMO success (Score:2)
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The game has been out in the Asian market quite a while already where it really has been a big success so far. The pre-order numbers are just for the Western market, so that's actually a really high pre-order figure compared to even past MMOs that have had high pre-orders but then still failed.
I think it's that- the extraordinarily high pre-order, coupled with the fact it's already a success in Asia that has people wondering if maybe this time we really are seeing the arrival of the next big MMO.
Bad conclusion (Score:2)
"The decision makes Aion, which recently announced over 400,000 western pre-orders, a real contender in the western MMO market."
I think having over 400,000 pre-orders in the western market makes it a contender, not the decision to remove their DRM. But hey, I don't assume the general population has the same slashdot groupthink mentality that I may have.
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No, that number is lower then both AoC and Warhammer by a good deal. You call either of those a "contender" these days?
The number of people still playing in six months is the only indicator of success for a MMO. The number of people who pre-order is a function of hype generation and has nothing to do with the long term success of the game.
GameGuard thinks battery backups are for cheaters (Score:2, Informative)
Misleading (Score:2)
They dropped a feature to meet the launch date. (Score:2)
We can only hope.
Easy to get around (Score:1)
What about beta testers? (Score:2)
Can we safely remove GameGuard now or do we need to wait for something? Also, will the final game will have trial? I haven't had time to try the game out due to my busy life. :(
gameguard circumvention is easy (Score:3, Informative)
As Auxis alluded to below, you can simply write a hack to tell the game that gameguard is running when it's not. These hacks are readily available for Lineage II (and I suspect almost every other game popular enough to warrant them), so all gameguard does is treat the gamer like a criminal while doing little to actually prevent unauthorized use.