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Real Time Strategy (Games) Games

Command & Conquer MMO a Possibility? 159

Posted by Soulskill
from the +1-sandbag-of-blocking dept.
TheProphet92 sends along a speculative piece about the future of EA's popular RTS franchise, writing: "EA's real-time strategy games don't have the luxury of extensive funding the way some other franchises do. EA has been milking their game engines for all they're worth and then some. They have been using various versions of the 'Sage' engine for the past half-dozen or so RTS games, and they need money to make a new one. Perhaps an MMO is the way to go for EA, using none other than their famous Command & Conquer franchise."
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Command & Conquer MMO a Possibility?

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  • by Thanshin (1188877) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @06:49AM (#29730027)

    I for one would pay to see fifty sims battling a gargantuan chromatic dragon, with epic furniture.

    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      I for one would pay to see fifty sims battling a gargantuan chromatic dragon, with epic furniture.

      Umm, I wouldn't..

      You should get out more!.

    • by Bieeanda (961632)
      They made a Sims MMO, actually. It tanked hard, mainly because instead of sending your Sim to work off-screen, you had to perform insipid mini-games for money. Entire neighborhoods were set up as virtual sweatshops, with people manning four-player pizza making machines (the most effective device for making money) for hours to pay for their dream houses.
      • by Adriax (746043)

        And the other half of the neighborhoods were virtual whorehouses.

        All they needed were chemistry sets to cook up drugs so people could start whole neighborhoods of crack dens.

      • The problem with sims is that if you make it too real, too good of a simulation it's going to be as boring as your life. Which is what,i believe, happened in that MMO.

        Did one update make unions possible?
        Could you organize strikes?

        Imagine, The Great Depression MMO. You could rise from being ordinary worker to being union leader, or you could be a cop just going to strikes and beating up people.

    • Good point (Score:5, Funny)

      by Moraelin (679338) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @07:25AM (#29730185) Journal

      Good point. And in the spirit of lending a helping hand to the publishers, here is my own list of franchises which have been sadly overlooked when it came to making an MMO.

      1. Zorro. Just think about it. For a start, you don't even need to pay the artists for more than one outfit for the players. You just need to figure out a way to need 25 Zorros for the final boss, and you're all set.

      2. Tom and Jerry. This could be huge. Just think of the millions of children who have grown up on seeing the cat and mouse (and occasionally dog) hit each other over the head with frying pans, lead pipes, and just about everything except the kitchen sink. Actually, wait, I think they used the kitchen sink too. It could make the perfect PvP MMO. (And you may think that it would be limited to have just two races in an MMO and have it all happen in one house and its yard, but AION launched literally with one race per side and the zones aren't much bigger either.)

      I for one can hardly wait to grind for the Epic Frying Pan Of Power, and whack a cat over the head with it. What? You're saying it's just me?

      3. Barbie. Well, Mattel already proved that you can make money with Barbie games for little girls. (Mostly because the one buying the game is the father, whose idea of what game would a little girl want is a little fuzzy.) Now imagine the many possibilities in a MMO. Not only you can dress up your Barbie and pretend she's a fashion model, you can sit her together with other people's Barbies and have a tea party. Won't that be fun? Little girls love having tea parties with their dolls. (At this point if you're a father, you're supposed to nod and reach for your wallet.)

      4. Debbie Does Dallas. Perfect for the few horny 14 year olds trying to cybersex every female character in sight... and for the many 40 year olds pretending to be a horny 14 year old. 'Nuff said.

      5. Harvest Moon. All the fun of watering crops and brushing your pony, except in a massively multi-player setting. And if you get a 40 man group you can brush an epic pony.

      6. Dallas. I believe more housewives worldwide have watched that soap opera than nerds have watched Star Trek. If they can make an MMO out of the latter, I don't see why they can't make one out of Dallas.

      7. The Bible. Yes, you've heard that right. It sold more copies than all 6 Star Wars episodes and all SW books combined. And if you don't think it has MMO potential, you haven't read it.

      E.g., the siege and genocide of Midian (not kidding, read Numbers) would make a great battleground. E.g., imagine the fun of an escort quest to get Lot out of Sodom. For that matter, of trying to get to Lot's house with your sphincter intact ;) E.g., for a FedEx quest, recreate Jeremiah's treck to the Euphrates to bury his loincloth because the Lord told him to. (Again, I'm not kidding.) Etc.

      • by Talderas (1212466)

        Or, some legitimate MMO ideas based on franchises...

        Total War
        Starcraft
        Fallout
        G.I. Joe

        And some less legitimate MMO ideas....
        Tetris
        My Little Pony
        Teletubby

      • by GNious (953874)

        7. The Bible. Yes, you've heard that right. It sold more copies than all 6 Star Wars episodes and all SW books combined.

        In that case, I suggest the Ikea Catalog MMO ... Only game where Epic Failure can net you a sale.

      • 2. Tom and Jerry. This could be huge. Just think of the millions of children who have grown up on seeing the cat and mouse (and occasionally dog) hit each other over the head with frying pans, lead pipes, and just about everything except the kitchen sink. Actually, wait, I think they used the kitchen sink too. It could make the perfect PvP MMO. (And you may think that it would be limited to have just two races in an MMO and have it all happen in one house and its yard, but AION launched literally with one race per side and the zones aren't much bigger either.)

        I for one can hardly wait to grind for the Epic Frying Pan Of Power, and whack a cat over the head with it. What? You're saying it's just me?

        7. The Bible. Yes, you've heard that right. It sold more copies than all 6 Star Wars episodes and all SW books combined. And if you don't think it has MMO potential, you haven't read it.

        E.g., the siege and genocide of Midian (not kidding, read Numbers) would make a great battleground. E.g., imagine the fun of an escort quest to get Lot out of Sodom. For that matter, of trying to get to Lot's house with your sphincter intact ;) E.g., for a FedEx quest, recreate Jeremiah's treck to the Euphrates to bury his loincloth because the Lord told him to. (Again, I'm not kidding.) Etc.

        I would play these. I'd never thought about the bible as source material for an MMO, but there is a lot of source material there. You'd have to have some balls to actually make it though.

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Balls, but no foreskin.

        • by Moraelin (679338)

          You'd have to have some balls to actually make it though.

          They said the same about pinball ;)

      • by Ihmhi (1206036)

        5. Harvest Moon. All the fun of watering crops and brushing your pony, except in a massively multi-player setting. And if you get a 40 man group you can brush an epic pony.

        I would absolutely play this. I love farming games.

        "Hey guys, I just got [Fire-Seared Plow of the Hellforge] offa this sweet turnip mob!"

        But seriously, a Harvest Moon Online game has been rumored for years. It's a beautiful form of self-expression, akin to a digital zen garden, which is probably why the Facebook apps FarmVille and FarmTown are so popular.

        • by Starayo (989319)
          Harvest Moon games to me are like "Just five more minutes before I go to bed," followed by a "Why is it December?"

          The one I go back and play most is the SNES version. I love it to bits.

          In fact I think I'll go and play it now so I can spend the next few hours riding a virtual horse thus leaving me without enough time to sleep so I'm too exhausted to go and ride an actual horse tomorrow. I think I'll name him Clopsy.
      • by mjwx (966435)

        7. The Bible. Yes, you've heard that right. It sold more copies than all 6 Star Wars episodes and all SW books combined. And if you don't think it has MMO potential, you haven't read it.

        Yes but if you make games out of the interesting parts of the bible all the fundies and the entire US Midwest will crucify you. Christian games have to conform to Christian values* not Christian history.

        * any semblance between values preached and values displayed is entirely coincidental.

    • Epic chairs, epic beds and heroic toilet bowls to name a few...
    • by mqduck (232646)

      They already made a Sims MMO, called The Sims Online. I playtested it as part of a focus group, in fact. I told them that, while fun, I just couldn't see myself paying a monthly fee for it. I never played it again, but apparently the rest of the public agreed with me.

  • Never has that tag been as fitting as now. C&C MMO? Uhm, no thanks.

    What would it be? General war zone? From which one of the games? How?

    Not to mention how useless MMOs are to begin with.

    • Re:donotwant (Score:4, Insightful)

      by zwei2stein (782480) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @07:06AM (#29730093) Homepage

      Warcraft managed to get RTS -> MMO RPG transition just fine, and it is not surprising.

      RTS tradition creates rich lore (past conflicts and battles, locations and settings - each map can equal to explorable area, iconic bad and good guys, enough rectcons to give lorephile hardon) and identifiable image (there is reason why wow town building designs are pretty much directly takes from its RTS roots.). MMO gameplay already has standardized features, so that is nobrainer too.

      • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

        by Kokuyo (549451)

        Yes, but Warcraft has actually had some kind of plot and usable characters.

        I think it was Command and Conquer: Red Alert that actually had good video sequences that featured believable army officers in not cheaply made uniform imitations. RA3 was just... I don't know, if I were fourteen years old I might have latched onto the eye-candy, but seeing as I'm twice that age I couldn't help but feel those scantily clothed super-soldieresses made the whole thing look very, very cheap.

        It scares me to think how EA w

        • It scares me to think how EA would one-up that in an MMO *brrr*.

          A dance emote for the super-soldieresses.

        • by dAzED1 (33635)

          Yes, but Warcraft has actually had some kind of plot and usable characters.

          Tatiana? (sp?) There are certainly character classes in C&C - dog handlers, medics, spies, assassins, flame thrower dudes, etc etc. Think about the idea of letting guilds get tanks for use dungeons as they progress through activities as a guild - they do the first raid where they take out a small, remote enemy camp - and they get 2 jeeps. From there they progress.

          One thing that would be revolutionary in the whole MMO bit woul

          • by moro_666 (414422)

            savage 2 did this idea a while ago :)

            but actually it is fun, i don't think EA should miss out on multiple massive online ganking games.

            • by dAzED1 (33635)

              progress as a guild, instead of as a player? Obtain rank in a military hierarchy, with that rank dictating how many forces you could command and what sort of equipment you could request from your superiors? Not worry about whether your character had 5 extra stamina and a +2 weapon of smite, and instead worry about what your guild was doing?

      • Warcraft III (the only game in the series which I've played) had a fairly deep story, especially when you compare it to Command and Conquer. Command and Conquer really has very little story, other than "I need you to attack this point. This is the opposition. Good luck." Not only does Warcraft have a story, but they also have a unique world to explore, complete with a large set of creatures and lore. Command and Conquer lacks that.
      • Agreed.
        I would definitely play it if they have Tim Curry as a playable class.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by HNS-I (1119771)

      I would love to see that happen. Imagine you can pick any class and evolve in it. There must be a mechanism that gives you an incentive to keep playing the same class. You get rewarded with specialised weapons, e.g. an improved tank or mechinfantry. Not only do you get rewarded for frags but also for following orders and pre-battlefield instructions. Over time you can become higher in rank which actually gives you authority over other players.

      Basically this would be the perfect balance between the excitemen

  • Supreme Commander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander) is a great game for MMO. Already large scale, and scalable.

  • This is silly. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bieeanda (961632) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @07:14AM (#29730137)
    Seriously. Developing an MMO to pay for a new RTS engine is like building a city so you can get your Starbucks fix.
    • I hear the new city will have a Starbucks on every corner!

      • by Talderas (1212466)

        and if you walk to the end of the block, there sits a Starbucks. And directly across the street — in the exact same building as that Starbucks — there is another Starbucks. There is a Starbucks across the street from a Starbucks!

        • by elrous0 (869638) *
          My town has three Gamestops, all within a mile of each other on the same road. One is in the mall, one is across the street from the mall, and one is in a nearby shopping center.
          • Do you live in NJ? Because that is the exact situation I'm thinking of.
          • by Canazza (1428553)

            There used to be 3 GAME shops within 5 minutes walk of each other in Glasgow, one in the Buchanan Galleries (which used to be an Electronics Boutique) one on Buchanan St, and one at the St Enoch Center at the bottom of Buchanan St (Which also used to be an EB). Now the one on Buchanan St has closed, we have a GAME on Sauchiehall St (about 3 blocks along from the top of Buchanan St), and it's massive. The only reason they opened it is because Gamestation opened up a shop there and it was the only part of Gla

          • There are three GameStops near me, one in the mall, and two in shopping centers next to the mall across the street from the Best Buy. They are all within a mile of each other.

    • get your Starbucks fix.

      Yeah, well I really don't think we have time for a hand job, Joe.

    • Re:This is silly. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by canajin56 (660655) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @10:09AM (#29731367)
      The more silly part is that EA said nothing about this shit. This is just some dude at a gaming website saying "Hey know what would be SWEEEEEEEEEET???????"
  • Better Option (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sanosuke001 (640243) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @07:18AM (#29730153)
    How about they get rid of their DRM, stop treating their customers like theives, and then they might sell some units? I love C&C but I didn't buy the last one because of the DRM (SecuROM I think?)
    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      by Kokuyo (549451)

      Lucky you. The video sequences were a joke. It felt like an Anime-parody. A bad one at that.

      I, for one, am very grateful for pirated copies of such games. Saves me a lot of frustration.

    • I would mod you up but I'm just going to agree strongly instead. I used to enjoy playing C&C games, and spent several hundred dollars on them. I always thought the licensing and pricing were fair, considering the amount of gameplay and expansion packs available.

      But Red Alert 2 was the last I've played. Nowadays I want games that will at least theoretically work in Wine and I have no interest in 3D for a strategy/resource game or dealing with absurd system requirements or goofy FPS tie-ins.

    • Same thing for me here.
      I'm a a pretty big nut of C&C games, but the DRM on C&C3 (fantastic game) gave me a ton of greif. I actually had to go and download no-cd images and use damen tools + YASU (yet another secure-rom utility) just to RUN my own game.
      My dvd drive struggled to read and pass the dvd check at boot because their dvd was non-standard.

      Nothing like having to crack your own game, just so you could play it, then worry that your online account will be banned as a result.

      Lets not forget how b

      • by karnal (22275)

        Generals had the same "game out of sync" errors - can't remember exactly what they were called, but it soured us on playing it. And my group of friends LOVED the game.

        Age of Empires (and Age of Kings) had this set-up to where on a game sync-loss, everyone would automatically save a current snapshot. Then one person could at least re-load their snapshot and continue the game. I never figured out why EA didn't do something like that.

        Oh yea, +1 for RA/RA2. Westwood was the SHIT at making these fun.

    • by mjwx (966435)
      I didn't buy the last C&C game because it was crap. They turned it into a consolised clickfest where your only option is to tank rush. Tanks built too quickly to do anything else and if you managed to survive the tank rush monotony to build a super weapon they were overpowered. The super weapons in C&C and C&C RA were just powerful enough to give you an edge not wipe out entire bases. I could have built the interface in Tiberium wars to use two buttons to achieve the same effect, "build tank" an
  • Okay so in the wild speculation list its not that far out to say 'MMO' but its not crazy enough. I mean you could actually see some marketing exec think it was a good idea. The other ideas on the list were

    * iPhone app - sod a new platform just port the old one and sell another million copies
    * Use the FIFA 10 engine - [Foot|Soccer]balls become grenades and you add some more scenery. Tanks are just "heavy" player right?
    * Use the Sims engine "you can be any genocidal maniac or army general you want"

    The end

    • by Cloud K (125581)

      Yeah an iPhone app is a good idea - ANYTHING to make it not just "yet another MMO".

      We have too many MMOs already. The likes of WoW get to be the popular one and the rest of the population is shared between about 20 different MMO games, making them nigh on empty. IMO, it worked better in the days when we only had a few to choose from - a bit of choice, but without saturating the market.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by alen (225700)

      there is an iphone version of C&C in development

      • by peragrin (659227)

        There is a CNC knockoff for the iPhone called warfare inc. It is actually fun if limited. The screen is too small so you can't have hot buttons. But unit moving and selection is easy. Personally I would love to play the game on something large like msft surface multi-touch with a bluetooth keyboard so you can have quick keys. To control units and movements. Or at least an on screen keyboard off to the side.

        Mice need to be upgraded. Multi point interfaces whether based off of touch or new mice are much bette

    • by Samah (729132)

      Use the FIFA 10 engine - [Foot|Soccer]balls become grenades and you add some more scenery.

      I think you mean:
      [Foot|Soccer|Your|Chuck Norris's]balls...
      The latter is more likely.

  • Eh? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ledow (319597) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @07:28AM (#29730209) Homepage

    The article makes no sense at all. Using one game-type to fund another is okay but hell, an MMO is a company in itself, not just a product. It's also complete speculation.

    And, the C&C series went downhill after Red Alert (and, as others have pointed out, EA's purchase of Westwood). I can hardly bring myself to play anything after that at all. I wanted to have a look at Red Alert 3 but wasn't going to buy without a demo. By the time a demo came out that I could actually find and download, it was 1.8Gb and I had lost interest. And the min specs looked scary for something quite benign in terms of gameplay.

    The best way for EA to make money on that franchise would be to stick the entire C&C / RA back-catalogue on Steam, with a new system for multiplayer lobbies... I know I'd buy it and compared to even the demo of Red Alert, it'd be small to download. I know RA itself is "freeware" now but just the hassle of keeping the CD images around and the multiplayer, plus the various expansion packs, has got to be worth a little bit. A lot of people times a little bit is quite a chunk.

    • by hab136 (30884)

      I started C&C with C&C:Generals (which I really enjoyed, along with Zero Hour and now C&C3:Tiberium Wars). I later found Red Alert, and really did not enjoy it, especially since I didn't start with it.

      To each his own.

      I'd say the best money is to just keep pumping out expansion packs. I'd buy em.

      • I started C&C with C&C:Generals (which I really enjoyed, along with Zero Hour and now C&C3:Tiberium Wars). I later found Red Alert, and really did not enjoy it, especially since I didn't start with it.

        To each his own.

        If you didn't start with the original C&C, were teased by the included C&C2 trailer (google it), disappointed by it being cancelled, then grudgingly admit having fun with RA, then pre-ordered the next tiberium-themed C&C when it came out years later, with the little pewter action figure, and.. well.. if that game didn't rip your heart out..

        You probably don't know the heartache real C&C fans have. EA killed them :\

        PS
        All you talking about lore... rofl. Which one? The one with disk chucking

    • by sajuuk (1371145)
      I agree, but I would bump the timing of their fall to after RA2. As cheesy as it was at times, it was still good. But everything else that EA has done with the C&C franchise has just been a disgrace (Generals aside, but that didn't exactly make the company look that good to the rest of the world). C&C3/Kane's Wrath was a bloated piece of crap and the console port of it was horrendous. RA3 jacked the Cheese factor up past 11 and did it horrendously. And I'm sick and tired of this whole "Lets mak
    • by Maltheus (248271)

      Yeah, RA was the last one for me too. Age of Empires III killed the "age of" series. Rise of Legends killed the Rise of Nations series in it's infancy. I love RTS', but they keep trying to reinvent themselves instead of building on what they did right.

      The RTS gold standard right now has to be Supreme Commander. If it wasn't for the sucky AI, I wouldn't need any other. But it got a few things right that should now be incorporated into every RTS out their. First is the stragtegic zoom. Don't give me some tigh

  • The problem is EA (Score:5, Informative)

    by Aceticon (140883) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @07:59AM (#29730349)

    If EA came up with an MMO, could you really trust them not to make it Pay-to-Play and:

    • At a latter date add some for of micro-transactions selling the kind on in-game kit that massively unbalances the end-of-game in favor of those that actually buy that kit?
    • Add in-game advertising after release?
    • Prioritize frequent development of new expansions over fixing known bugs?

    If my previous experience with Online PvP gaming using EA products (Battlefield series on the PC) is any indication of their behavior, I expect them to release the game buggy (yet strangely with great reviews from certain well-known gaming websites), have a 6 month period with a couple of bug-fixes while they "hook as many players as they can into the game" and then proceed to do all the "returns enhancing" ideas listed above.

    • Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Anything that EA touches turns to shit and I wouldn't expect this to be any different.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Chris Mattern (191822)

      It's worse than that. EA actually has a long history with MMOs. You may not realize it, because none of except the original Ultima Online survived. Ultima Online 2 (and UO X). The Sims Online. BattleTech 3025. Earth & Beyond. Motor City Online. And others.

    • Yep. For a long time now, if it says "EA" on the cover, I won't buy it. I don't care the genera. EA has burned me more than almost all the rest of the publishers combined.

  • Tiberium Farming (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Culture20 (968837) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @08:01AM (#29730357)
    Tired of the WoW grind? Hop into a Harvester and start gathering Tiberium for a living!
  • I call Tanya.
  • Choice of /. imagery (Score:3, Interesting)

    by otter42 (190544) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @08:30AM (#29730529) Homepage Journal

    How fitting that the /. icon for this article should be a warcraft picture. God, I miss the time when there were two types of gamers in this world: C&C and Warcraft II.

    • I thought it was left-clicker or right-clicker?

      So sad that right click won. You can hear thousands of 90's RTS games crying from the grave. The slow death of PC gaming... giant mega games and a forgotten past :\

    • by antdude (79039)

      Heh. I was and still am always a C&C fan instead of Blizzard's RTS games (e.g., WC). However, newer C&C games after C&C3 are sucky now. C&C4 doesn't look that good. RA3 was crap.

  • ...and my entire objection is based off two letters, E and A.

    I've been burned to many times.
  • ...just imagine sweeping vistas of Tiberium-ravaged landscapes or towns and villages inside yellow zones.
  • Uggg (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Urza9814 (883915) on Tuesday October 13, 2009 @08:34AM (#29730567)

    If this was being done by the guys of the old Westwood, then I'd say go for it. Because you know if those guys did it, it would be awesome. But EA has done nothing but destroy the C&C franchise, so I don't really want to see them try this.

    On the other hand, it would be extremely interesting to see how they would pull off something like that. If done well it could be very good. But it's EA, they don't do anything well.

    • by bendodge (998616)

      I agree. EA ruined C&C by making it WAY TOO MAINSTREAM. Red Alert 3 is garbage. Games are over in like 10 minutes. The old Tiberian Sun could easily take hours. They tried too hard to expand it's appeal to the masses and they lost their old hardcore base. EA's getting what they deserve.

      • by Urza9814 (883915)

        Exactly! Perhaps it was just because I was only 6 years old when I started playing the C&C series, so my strategy wasn't that great, but there were single missions in the original games that would take longer to beat than entire games these days. Remember...I think it was soviet mission 6 in the original Red Alert - the one with the big center island? If you didn't take out the MCV before it made it across it could easily take an entire week to beat that mission. I have yet to see a game by EA that take

    • The original C&C by Westwood had an AWESOME story line...with Michael Biehn, James Earl Jones & Kari Wuhrer in some of the title roles.

  • EA has been milking their game engines for all they're worth and then some. They have been using various versions of the 'Sage' engine for the past half-dozen or so RTS games, and they need money to make a new one.

    Translation - they've made a shitload of money with minimal investment and have spent it all on [censored] so have none left to make a new engine.

    EA, the CA [wikipedia.org] of gaming.

  • Dungeon Keeper MMO.
    The only problem is the arguments over who geets to be the Horned Reaper and who gets to be the Keeper...
  • I have not purchased a new game in years, why? Because they are the same old shit, the mechanics and basic rules of the games are all the same, which makes all the units basically the same regardless of whether you call it an Archer, a Musketeer, or a Rifleman.

    Not only that but the twitch reflex keeps showing up in this games as well the standard build. In other words, having to time your production clicking while issuing orders like a madman to your combat units. Hell, at what point am I actually enjoyi

  • by AP31R0N (723649)

    The second M and the O are redundant.

    Let's just call them MRPG, MFPS and MRTS.

  • The game is tongue in cheek, but I think they've made a pretty neat step towards a style of MMO and RTS. s/massive/many/
    It should be possible to make a more serious (and perhaps less chaotic game) in that style that is also a persistent world.

  • MMO's where the players spend nearly the entire game inside vehicles don't tend to do so hot. Witness AutoAssault and Pirates of the Burning Sea.
    • Eve
      • by sohp (22984)

        Yes and no. EvE is really just a prettified version of Trade Wars. The fanbase is more interested in their spreadsheets and min/max calculations than any sort of embodied avatar.

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