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Commodore 64 Runs Again On the iPhone 146

Posted by Soulskill
from the also-accused-of-flip-flopping dept.
Hugh Pickens writes "Stephen Williams reports in the NY Times that the app recreating some of the Commodore's seminal retro games, including Le Mans, Dragons Den and Jupiter Lander, has been re-issued after being pulled in September. The app features SID sound emulation, auto-save to continue where you left off, and a realistic joystick with a beautifully crafted C64 keyboard. Apple originally rejected the program for violating the SDK agreement, which dictates that 'no interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).' After disabling the controversial feature, Apple published the app in September, but days later it was pulled and the developer was asked to remove, rather than just disable, the BASIC interpreter from the program, which would have allowed unscrupulous users to run unlicensed, emulated code on the iPhone or iPod Touch. 'The road was bumpy, but we remained persistent and made the changes Apple was looking for. Ultimately, BASIC has been removed for this release; however, we hope that working with Apple further will allow us to re-enable it,' the company wrote on its blog."
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Commodore 64 Runs Again On the iPhone

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  • by omni123 (1622083) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @01:04AM (#30095172) Homepage
    Is there actually a method of doing anything unscrupulous with a BASIC interpreter running inside a C64 emulator running on an iPhone?
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by dgr73 (1055610)
        What exactly do you have against Braben?
      • >>>LOAD "VIRUS",8,1

        That thing still hanging around? Jeez. I wrote that when I was like, 10. Damn internet - nothing disappears. I shoulda known buying that 0.3 k modem was a bad idea.

      • What programs could be written in about 38k Basic???
        And how would the non-basic version of the c64 emulator hinder you to run arbitrary machine code on it?
        It is easier to write useful code in c64 machine code.
        And what use of a c64 emulator is there if you cannot run neither basic nor machine code on it.

        • Any program that allows a user to arbitrarily write to a memory location is potentially a security threat. Buffer overloading is the most common means of taking control of a machine when a malicious user already has unpriviledged access. If the emulator is poorly written (ie it's not a sandbox, but rather simply a command interpreter to the host system) then there's a very real possibility that an exploit can be found.

    • by DNS-and-BIND (461968) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @01:19AM (#30095212) Homepage
      That's not the point. The point is, Apple must control everything. Yes, they regard even a BASIC interpreter as a threat. And they are very correct to do so. You might laugh but Apple's principles are sound. I have just spent some time reviewing documents from just before the Wall fell [gwu.edu] and it was very clearly revealed that letting people have a little bit of freedom was ultimately disastrous.
      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by KillShill (877105)

        Don't use the word "control" in the same sentence as App£€ when DRM is more accurate.

        Telling the customer (or consumer if you support corporate rights over your own) what to do with a product after it has been sold = DRM.

        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by Idiomatick (976696)
          Haha only on /. would someone compare Apple to communist Russia and be corrected 'Its worse than that, you could even call it DRM'.

          I hate DRM too but it probably isn't as bad as the USSR. Though really if Apple owned a country I'm not sure if it would be more or less restrictive than the USSR...
          • I'm not sure if it would be more or less restrictive than the USSR...

            Neither am I - but one thing is for sure.. they would ban the spork.

          • by olyar (591892)

            New meme?

            In DRM Apple, the iPhone unlocks you!

            Not sure it has the same ring to it...

          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Though really if Apple owned a country I'm not sure if it would be more or less restrictive than the USSR...

            If Apple owned a country it would be almost exactly like that commercial for the 1984 Superbowl. Except it'd be Steve Jobs up on the viewscreen and a bearded penguin running up the aisle while the mindless Apple drones would all be sticking their legs into the aisle trying to trip him. before he could throw a hammer through the viewscreen.

        • by Ihmhi (1206036)

          App£€

          Nice Eurocentric twist on the ol' M$ dealy.

          I've always thought of the pound sterling symbol as more of an E or F though. Appee? Appfe?

          • I've always thought of the pound sterling symbol as more of an E or F though.

            Nope, it's definitely an L - it's related to lira, livre and lb (pound weight).

          • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

            by Idiomatick (976696)
            I like it, apple is probably about 1.7x as expensive as micro$oft.
        • by Sir_Lewk (967686)

          Are you really trying to assert that DRM isn't a form of control with a straight face? Come on now...

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by MrMista_B (891430)

        I can't tell if you're trolling or trying to be funny.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Hal_Porter (817932)

        I have just spent some time reviewing documents from just before the Wall fell [gwu.edu] and it was very clearly revealed that letting people have a little bit of freedom was ultimately disastrous.

        WTF? Would you prefer the European Communist regimes run people over with tanks instead? You've pretty much Godwined the discussion right there.

        • by DNS-and-BIND (461968) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @05:33AM (#30096048) Homepage
          Well! I certainly take back my assertion that Apple's app store is authoritarian. You have certainly bested me in argument, sir, and I bow my head in shame. My strategy of comparing different sorts of authoritarianism has come apart in the face of your assertion that I would enjoy the violent deaths of thousands of people. Moreover, your rhetorical strategy of making any references to communism off-limits for any sort of discussion can only make future debates more fruitful and productive by letting our society forget about 20th century history.
          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Hal_Porter (817932)

            You can't compare the app store and totalitarianism. Apple sells products and people have a choice whether or not they use them. The store is exclusive and the entry policies are somewhat arbitrary/elitist/wanky, but that is no difference from a fancy nightclub. Legally they have a right to offer the service, and I have the right to ignore it. You can't choose whether you want to live under a communist system or not if you're born in a country that has one.

            Also Apple haven't killed millions of innocent peop

        • by Thing 1 (178996)

          You've pretty much Godwined the discussion right there.

          Yeah, pretty much; I saw that the link was from "gwu.edu" and just figured, "GodWin University"...

      • by kandela (835710) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @05:34AM (#30096054)
        That's disappointing. Just when I thought my hard earned BASIC programming skills were going to allow me to write unauthorised programs for the iPhone. Oh well.
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Hope Thelps (322083)

        Ah, but there is another side to this technology. Next Friday will be Junis day [slashdot.org],a reminder to us all of the contributions of Commodore computers to the causes of liberty and to international journalism. Millions of impoverished Afghanis rely on Commodore Basic emulators on their iPhones to be able to participate in the international community. Apple are clearly hindering this in hopes of appealing to the lucrative Taliban market instead. Such cynicism is appalling.

      • by welshie (796807)
        So, in what way is a 6510 emulator not interpreting machine code opcodes, and executing, er.. program code, and why is that different to that same interpreter interpreting a program that allows you to interpret BASIC program code?
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        are you seriously comparing vendor lock in on software to the Soviet Union?

        It's a PHONE. you're free to jail break and Apple won't zap your phone dead. Christ.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by bill_mcgonigle (4333) *

        You're quite right - Apple is at the top of the proprietary heap.

        If iPhone isn't a purposeful implementation of The Innovator's Solution's [amazon.com]* description of the proprietary to commodity process I don't know what is. I mean, the authors even have a section on Blackberry and describe how to better it ala iPhone.

        Once a reasonable competitor emerges (is it Droid?) Apple will loosen its grip, but until then it commands higher profit by staying as controlling as possible.

        * I know, the apostrophe should be after th

      • (from a plaque in a small German town whose name I now forget - in the late Middle Ages the local landowner tried to enclose common land and sent his soldiers to stop any local men who tried to demolish it. The wall was demolished by the local women: the soldiers were barred by their personal honour from fighting women.)

        My point here is that in the longer run what will destroy the Wall is that there are now going to be three Linux based phone OSes, Android, Maemo and Samsung's Bada. To get developer tractio

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by sootman (158191)

        "Apple must control everything. Yes, they regard even a BASIC interpreter as a threat."

        No, it's not that. They consider GOTO to be harmful.

      • by lennier (44736)

        Exactly! Thanks to the Information Purification Directives, Big Steve has created a garden of pure ideology, where the consumer may flourish safe from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Apple's enemies shall talk themselves to death, and the iPhone will bury them with their own confusion.

        And one last thing... we shall prevail!

    • by Brian Gordon (987471) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @01:20AM (#30095220)

      I hate the ridiculous anti-free nature of the app store, but it's not hard to see why Apple would be concerned. The fear is that if a program gets into the App Store that allows any sort of user-provided data to be executed, then evil unlicensed apps could be delivered to the platform through that interpreter.

      For example, instead of writing your games in C and paying Apple to sell them on the app store, you could write your game in BASIC and deliver them through the C64 emulator. Apple makes no money. Not exactly practical, but if there's a hole in the interpreter environment that allows a jump into raw binary data (which could be set to ARM instructions) then it's up to the app developer to fix it, and Apple has no control. This is the kind of problem that plagued TI calculators for years until they decided to open them up, and was the door into custom unsigned software on game consoles before the age of modchips and hard drives.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by RanCossack (1138431)
        *cough* I think someone may have already found a different way to jailbrea-- I mean run unsigned code.

        Games written in BASIC that Apple wouldn't make money on, though... hmmm. How would Gorillas the iPhone Game [lhunath.com] make money if people are playing Gorillas [wikipedia.org] on BASIC?

        (Actually, that's a free App. Oh, well.)
      • by mysidia (191772)

        For example, instead of writing your games in C and paying Apple to sell them on the app store, you could write your game in BASIC and deliver them through the C64 emulator.

        Unless the emulator provides a way for you to load BASIC programs from unsigned user files you can provide outside the emulator into the environment, this is useless. As far as I know, the only files the app would let you load are ones in the app, that you bought.

        Users aren't too likely to hand-key the program listing for a C64 game

      • by mcrbids (148650)

        I hate the ridiculous anti-free nature of the app store, but it's not hard to see why Apple would be concerned. The fear is that if a program gets into the App Store that allows any sort of user-provided data to be executed, then evil unlicensed apps could be delivered to the platform through that interpreter.

        This problem is easily solved: Just require the code to be signed!

        Although there are many upsides to interpreted languages, perhaps top of the heap is a short application development cycle. But I would happily throw a couple hundred bux for an interpretive SDK that let's me run unsigned code, so that I could develop my appz. Then, when I'm ready to sell, I get the code signed by Apple.

        My company vends a product written in an common, interpreted language. It's closed-source, so we use a software obfuscation

      • by mgblst (80109) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @06:09AM (#30096146) Homepage

        It is ignorant to talk about Apple being upset at not being able to make money from Commodore basic games.

        You can already release as many free games as you want, which cost apple money to host, and they do not make a cent. Apple doesn't care if you release any game you want, or as many as you want for free. They will not stop you (as long as you follow the rules).

        It is clearly not about money. It is about a rule Apple created, not for commodore basic, but for things like flash. basic just happens to fit into this rule.

        • But they'll only sign your game if you're not charging for it. If you don't need a signature at all then you can charge.

      • by Swift2001 (874553)

        I get it. The anti-Apple crusaders make the mistake of confusing an iPhone with a totalitarian state. It's nothing of the sort. They make objects which are supported by software. They're quite popular. If they double their market share again, they might have 20% of the computer market, though I really don't think that's likely. But you know what? You don't have to have a Mac, or an iPhone, or anything at all made by Apple. They're quite popular. They're turning a good profit.

        If you want to collect a bunch o

        • Apple depends on community developers to make all of those thousands of apps in the app store. They have a right to complain.

          • Apple depends on community developers to make all of those thousands of apps in the app store. They have a right to complain.

            True enough, but I'd be willing to bet that very few of the people complaining here are, in fact, iPhone developers.

            • by LWATCDR (28044)

              iPhone users also have the right. iPod touch users even more so since there is no network/carrier issues involved.

        • by LWATCDR (28044)

          Yes people do have every right to complain. They have the right to not buy Apple products as well. I also find some of Apple's actions regarding the App store to be disturbing. When it comes to the C64 Emulator I have to wonder if it might not be for copyright reasons. Who owns the rights to the the C64 basic and Kernel? Microsoft wrote the Basic way back when. People have every right to say they don't like something.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14, 2009 @01:40AM (#30095310)

      Yes. You can do things your Apple overlords have not expressly given you permission to do. This cannot be allowed, because they have not given permission.

      The phone market is Apple's wet dream, because none of the customers have any expectation of openness or being able to actually do anything with their own hardware, so there's not much complaint when they give users the full Apple experience by locking everything down. I fully expect they'd do the exact same damn thing with OS X elsewhere if they could get away with it.

      • The phone market is Apple's wet dream, because none of the customers have any expectation of openness

        Nor do they care. Most phone users just want the fucking thing to, you know, work. Slashdot readers should keep in mind that they are a minority population--and a relatively small one at that.

    • by Casandro (751346)

      Well it would transform the iPhone from a Gadget to a computer, by adding the final step, rapid application development on the device itself.

      • It's not about that. It's about FREEDOM OF CODE!

        10 PRINT "FUCK STEVE JOBS"
        20 GOTO 10

        They can take our rights to run unsigned ARM code but they can't take our FREEDOM! RAAAAHH!

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by cheekyboy (598084)

      Apple is just pissed that no one made an Apple2 EMU, because the c64 rocked ass and was 1000x more popular that apple
      crap creation with 1970s green screen crap that was even crap in 1982.

      Keyboard was nice, but the insides were dead boring and dull.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Dusthead Jr. (937949)
        You know, the Apple II had color back when Commodore had the monochrome PET.
        • by LWATCDR (28044)

          We are talking about the C64 not the Pet.
          The C64 had better sound, and hardware sprites. The AppleII did have faster drives, slots, and a CP/M option.
          I liked both machines but the C64 was much easier to write games for.

    • Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by Hognoxious (631665)
      Not exactly useful, but see http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/K/killer-poke.html [retrologic.com]
    • by sjames (1099) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @12:55PM (#30098470) Homepage

      Apple's problem is that they have a bunch of thieving users who think the iPhone is theirs to use as they wish just because they paid for it. Next thing you know, they'll be writing "hello world" and you know where that leads! If you give a bunch of scumbags like that even an inch, next thing you know, they'll be demanding that they get what they pay for every time! The nerve!!

      • by lennier (44736)

        "Next thing you know, they'll be writing "hello world""

        There is no World. There is nothing outside the Dome.

        Your crystal is blinking, Logan. Happy Lastday!

    • by mdwh2 (535323)

      You could copy and paste.

    • by nathanh (1214)

      Is there actually a method of doing anything unscrupulous with a BASIC interpreter running inside a C64 emulator running on an iPhone?

      Not likely unscrupulous, but an interpreter on the iPhone would allow developers to sell iPhone software without going through the App Store. Apple has decided - for better or worse - that they must review and approve all applications on the iPhone. Therefore no interpreters.

    • by hazydave (96747)

      Yes... you can run a program Apple doesn't control get paid for. That is, after all, the highest crime possible on the iPhone. And the reason open interpreters are not permitted. Regular iPhone applications are subject to the approvals process of the Powers That Be at Apple. But they would not be able to approve C64 BASIC, Java, or Shockwave programs (for example). And since Apple know much better than you which applications should be running on the iPhone, that would not be good.

      The security argument is a

  • There's an app for that!
  • Jailbreak!

  • by ivan_w (1115485) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @01:21AM (#30095222) Homepage

    What is the point of running a Commodore C64 Basic application on a DAMN PHONE ?

    --Ivan

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Just like a mountain.

    • by postbigbang (761081) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @01:32AM (#30095276)

      Today: Commodore 64.

      Tomorrow: VAX/VMS

      Tuesday: Plan 9

      Thursday: MacOS

      Oh, wait....

      • Friday: the Hurd.
        Saturday: Duke Nukem Forever.

        [small print] Days referred to above do not denote a specific Friday or Saturday, especially not next Friday or Saturday. VWP. YMMV. IJMUTA. [/]

    • by RedOctober (10155)

      If you have to ask, you will never know.

    • To save money on an external acoustic coupler?
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Ilgaz (86384)

      On real smart phones, people does it for years, installing/running their old games, showing their friends the code they wrote.

      The issue here is, your device vendor and your apologists shouldn't be asking this question. It should be YOU choosing what to do with the computing platform you do. Why don't you ask why there is such a limit of "running emulated code"? Why don't you think 10 SECONDS about the reasoning behind it?

      I can't wait for the "app store only" OS X 10.7 and apologists for the most closed comp

    • It's a great idea, as long as I can disable the phone part. Don't want my Ultimate Wizard game interrupted.
  • GPL violation? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    This App is based on Frodo, a GPL licensed C64 emulator. While it offers, upon request, to email the Frodo source code to you (which can also be downloaded straight from the web site), it doesn't offer to send the source code of the complete App.

    The Frodo source code is an integral part of the app, obviously, so I suspect this app will land them in choppy waters soon.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by mysidia (191772)

      Indeed, if true, that would be a GPL violation. Distribution upon request is acceptable, provided section (3) of the GPL is met, which provides the option:

      b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily us

    • Meanwhile I can run frodo on my Moto Droid unrestricted.

  • What's stopping you from doing something like Simon's BASIC or Forth or something else?

    • by Nazlfrag (1035012)

      Apple, that's what. It seems they will refuse any alternative to running code on the device except through their app store, and that's unlikely to change. I think there's a brainfuck interpreter though, so severely crippled languages can slip through.

  • by rubenerd (998797) on Saturday November 14, 2009 @02:32AM (#30095486) Homepage

    I downloaded it before it got taken down the first time and had fun entering BASIC command for a couple of seconds before I lost interest. Touch screen keyboards are fine for quick SMS messages or email but I couldn't imagine being such a masochist that I'd want to enter entire programs in with one! I suppose someone with enough resolve could do some amazing stuff and create an alternative interface to the iPhone with 8bit PETSCII glory. Actually that would be kinda cool.

    Anyway despite that, I kept the application and won't be upgrading, if only just to (Mr Burns voice) honk off my Apple masters :).

    • You lack persistence. I'm nearly done entering all of the DATA statements for a full assembler. Probably only need a few more weeks and then a few nights of verifying what I've entered. I've tacked on a bit of code to poke the whole thing into REM statements, at which point I'll be ready to recreate Zaxxon.

  • For some reason, Legacy of Ancients for C64 tugs at my heart strings as one of my favorite RPGS. It was also one of my first computer RPGS, and there is always something about your first RPG where you feel powering up your character really matters. I bet a lot of WOW people think powering up their character matters somehow because the game is so big.

    My favorite things to do in Legacy of Ancients is to rob towns or to play flip flop(and consequently run out of town when I break the bank). There is also
    • by kaoshin (110328)

      I loved making humongous ramps in racing destruction set, changing the gravity to like really wacky and then hit them really hard so the cars would jump forever. That was truly the most awesome game. I remember devoting countless hours to project firestart, phantasy, mig alley ace, cycle knight, speedball... Games that didn't suck.

      • racing destruction set

        God how I adored this game.

        changing the gravity to like really wacky
        MOON GRAVITY!

        My friends all had Apple IIe systems and went home to Oregon Trails.
  • They are afraid that a game that slick, played on the iPod, might cause the universe to collapse under coolness.

    Also, I hear Jobs is jealous that he wasn't the first one to come up with the phrase, "stay a while. Stay...FOREVER!!!"
  • I can't help but wonder if this whole soap opera isn't like just some jealous retribution against those old "COMMODORE ATE THE APPLE" newspaper headlines. So now it is back, but they yanked out BASIC...

    "Oh, no! We suck again!" - Rob Schneider

  • Boo apple. The early home computers, including Apple, shipped with BASIC and a nicely bound manual [scribd.com] with clear instructions on simple programming. This was the first step for many who are now players in the industry.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Boo apple.

      The early home computers, including Apple, shipped with BASIC and a nicely bound manual [scribd.com] with clear instructions on simple programming. This was the first step for many who are now players in the industry.

      It's almost like the old days again. I hear current Apple products still ship with a book that's about as thick as the old programming manual that came with the Apple ][.

      I believe it's called The License Agreement or something like that.

    • Most of them started with C64 basic and became gurus of today. Why C64 BASIC? Because it was so horrible that you were required to do POKE hacks, ASM code, own ASM routines, know the registers etc.

      Of course, after a certain level, they asked themselves "Why the heck am I bothering with this?" and moved to mixture of pure ASM and C.

      Coding for 8bit computers were so hard that one Atari 800XL (8bit) game developer could move out of gaming business (because of distributor) and could start to code entire softwar

      • I don't think Commodore BASIC was any worse than any other BASIC interpreter out there. It was still largely a variant of the then-ubiquitous Microsoft BASIC. Probably its biggest deficiency was a lack of direct support for sprites. But most of the 8bit computers I played with at the time required PEEKs and POKEs to do some fancy stuff, often small machine language routines to speed up things like sorts and graphics. Back in those days, would-be programmers started with the BASIC variant on their comput

  • by rossdee (243626)

    Where do you put the 5.25 in disks?

    • Just like Apple has a virtual keyboard, they just can provide virtual 5.25" disks, to be inserted into a virtual 5.25" drive, using multitouch gestures. OK, there's the problem of getting in your real C64 disks, but there's a solution: Display it in hex, and type that in through the iPhone's virtual keyboard. :-)

  • is my Amiga emulator and a copy of K240 going to be on the iPhone!
  • Despite months of negotiations to get a Commodore 64 emulator approved for the iPhone, Apple has pulled the application after just two days [today.com] after a hack was found that enables the BASIC interpreter.

    “Anything capable of allowing programming — any programming — could be a security risk to the iPhone and its users,” said Apple in a statement to the Library of Congress on copyright. “As such, it is absolutely vital for the safety of the nation that we vet every single application and collect 30% on each one.”

    Apple software reviewers, who are generally moonlighting from day jobs as TSA airport security policy writers, fear a wave of 1980s-style “hackers” using the iPhone to “dial” into NASA or National Security Agency computers using the accompanying 300-Baud Acoustic-Coupled Modem application. “We had our suspicions when the app lit the user’s face from below in just the right shade of green to show off their cheekbones really photogenically.”

    Reviewers were particularly concerned that the BASIC interpreter was originally written by Microsoft. “Of course, their security is famously terrible,” said one reviewer in a break from torturing kittens. “We’d probably get a Commodore 64 virus. And their sense of aesthetics! No way Steve would ever let that through.”

    A similar Commodore 64 emulator that gives ten cents to AT&T every time a user runs a game has passed approval in two days.

    “A strange phone,” said NSA correspondent “WOPR.” “The only winning move is not to buy.”

  • I mean, it is executing non-native code (6510 asm) without (I'm guessing) recompiling it for iPhone, providing a way to run programs with an in-between layer to not use the native stuff or keep Apples glorious blessing on the code. This is essentially what java or flash does, construct a secondary layer where code can run. On the other hand, Apple is Apple and pretty much reserves the right to be inconsistent, bizarre and allow or disallow things at will depending on what suits them so I guess it's par for
  • a realistic joystick

    What is that then? A Bluetooth device? Do you swing your iPhone around like a stick while trying to look at your waggling screen?

    Do you plug your surplus Atari VCS stick into the serial port via a 9-pin D-SUB port [interfacebus.com] converter?

    I'm going to go with David Lynch on this one, who famously ranted that "you can't watch a movie on a fscking phone." You can't have a "realistic" joystick on a phone, because an image of a joystick is not realistic, nor does it even approximate the input device. It's a neat toy, not a re

  • People need to realize that the iphone isn't a pocket computer. It's an appliance. Apple didn't market it as a pocket computer, and iphone owners did not purchase the right to run whatever software they like on it. You buy that right when you buy any apple computer, but you can't purchase that right with an iphone.

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